Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cymbolik 03-16-07, 10:58 AM	Probability Theory Clairsentience Level: Seer 5, psion/wilder 5 Display: Auditory, Visual Manifesting Time: 1 full round action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 5 rounds +1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: Seer 9, psion/wilder 9 As you place your hand upon your target your mind is plunged into the endless possibilities of time. Reaching out, you draw upon one of these alternate futures and channel the strength of your target and one of these probable selves between each other, enveloping your target with a blurred image of its probable self superimposed over it. Maintaining concentration, you smile to yourself as your target surges forward, empowered by the possibility of greatness. Upon manifesting this power you have the option of improving one key feature of your target. This improvement takes the form of an insight bonus to one of the following choices: - +1 to attack and damage rolls - +1 to caster or manifester level and +1 damage to each dice rolled for damage caused by spells or powers that the target casts or manifests - +2 to all Skill checks and +5 to all modes of movement - +1 to AC and all saving throws When this power ends you become nauseated for a number of minutes equal to the duration of this power as the stresses of altering time and probability take their toll. Special: When a seer manifests this power they can choose to target themself and only require a standard action to manifest this power when doing so. This applies only if the seer is the singular target of this power. A seer only becomes nauseated when this power ends if they did not target themself. If the seer is the target of this power they become sickened instead of nauseated. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways: 1.For every 3 additional power points you spend the bonus you choose to provide your target is increased by 1. In the case of the movement speed, this is increased by 5ft. 2.For every 2 additional power points you spend you may affect one more target with the same bonus. So, here are my questions: 1) Should it be a Seer restricted power or should I open it to the general psion/wilder list? 2) Is the level/power point cost appropriate for this power? 3) Should I split the bonuses apart to provide more options, or is it balanced for its level to affect two areas? 4) I'm uncertain about the skill and movement bonus - do they complement each other? It's the kind of thing I envision manifesting on a rogue to improve their scouting abilities or such, but doesn't really have a great deal of in-combat application, apart from the movement increase. I may be wrong. 5) Is the fatigue a sufficient penalty to help balance the power against abuse? 6) Any other remarks/comments/suggestions? Credit to: All posters to this thread
Ozzymandias 03-16-07, 11:51 AM	1) Restricting it to one type of psion class is giving a special boost to that one class. Opening it up to all psions (and thus all wilders) is giving a boost to all psions (wilders). In the case of wilders their ability to surge will make this power tasty and fun to play with. However, the penalty of fatigue is an annoyance (see below), so many people may pass it over. I'd say allow it for all psions and, if there's a great deal of abuse (which I really don't foresee), consider restricting it at that time. 2) Concentration can be handed over to a psicrystal via Solicit Psicrystal, which is a psion power, so there is potential for awesome combo-usage here. 3) With the combination of a psicrystal, I'd totally manifest this power at the maximum to gain a bonus to my manifester level (allowing me to spend more power points on other powers) and save DCs (which is just icing on the cake). It seems like the other bonuses are okay stacked together; a scout/barbarian/monk/rogue could totally benefit from the movement and skill bonuses (increases total distance of movement per round, plus a bonus to Tumble, Jump, Climb, etc.). The attack and damage bonuses are also going to seriously improve fighter-types (like they really need it anyway). The saving throw and AC bonuses are good for everyone. Actually, these benefits, when combined with a psicrystal, are awesome for the psion alone, let alone anyone else. Either you can boost your party members, or you can boost yourself, in addition to a host of other powers that make psions the bomb in single combat. I'm not sure which powers wouldn't stack with this one (insight bonuses), but I know that more than a few would (the only problem then becomes manifesting them all before getting into a fight, but that's what we have Temporal Acceleration for). 4) As I've implied, the bonuses combined together are not that game-breaking; it is a 5th level power after all. It's the augment ability and the combination with Solicit Psicrystal that has the potential for abuse. And speaking of bonuses and augmentation, the 2pp/+1 increase is fine, except for the speed thing. 2pp for a +1 foot increase to speed? Not that it doesn't work (it'd mean that you'd have to spend 10pp extra to get an additional +5 bonus to speed), I just think you need to word it more clearly for that aspect of the power. 5) Fatigue doesn't really hinder a psion all too much. -2 to Strength and Dexterity, cannot run or charge. Now, if he becomes fatigued again, he becomes exhausted, which is rather severe, but a psion is a caster, not a melee character. Plus, with his trusty psicrystal, I don't see the fatigue as being a problem. Beyond these details, I love the power. It's an awesome idea. Hope all this helps to clear your thoughts about it.
JulesCARV 03-16-07, 11:57 AM	Well... this is something of a petty gripe to make, but I don't like the name. I'd prefer something like "Probability Manipulation" or "Probability Control." "Probability Theory" just doesn't seem like a good name for a psionic power: too passive.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-16-07, 12:50 PM	This kind of power is normally manifester-only. You could make it so that the seer version is level 5 and the psion version is level 5, while the seer version lets you use it at touch range and the psion version is self-only but without concentration. The target should be the one nauseated, not the manifester. Looks useful and versatile, as powers should be.
cymbolik 03-16-07, 01:08 PM	Edit: 1) I've opened the power to Psions and Wilders, giving it to them at level 7 instead. This means they won't be able to access the highest levels of the bonus and affect multiple targets at the same time, except through careful use of overchannel, etc. I'm not sure if I like this, since messing about with time seems more Seer oriented. I could rewrite the flavour of the power, I suppose, but don't really want to. 2) I've changed the condition which affects you to nauseated and reduced the duration it affects you to rounds and not minutes. 3) I've added a clause which clarifies the movement increase. I have concerns that 5 ft. for 2pp might be a bit much, though. Other than that I took into account that solicit psicrystal would be used. I don't think it would be game-breaking, since you still become nauseated at the end of it all and sooner to boot (if I recall), since solicit psicrystal will end sooner than if you were to concentrate on it yourself. I was wondering about the DC increase. Should that be restricted to spells or would a +6 be okay in exchange for a good few rounds of nausea? Speaking of which, to further prevent abuse I'm wondering if I should keep the duration of the nausea condition at minutes and not rounds? As for the name, I appreciate where you're coming from, but I like the idea that the Seer is a far more subtle effects class than other psion subtypes. I mean, I could jazz it up, but let's face facts, reality revision isn't exactly zinging with the flash. I mean, you're revising reality. The last time I revised something I was sat with a bunch of notes and pen and paper in front of me. Yet reality revision is considered the grand daddy of all powers, in the same league as wish and miracle. I quite like the idea that, in the same way that reality can be revised, an application of theory can affect probable outcome. Credit to: Ozzymandias JulesCARV
cymbolik 03-16-07, 01:22 PM	This kind of power is normally manifester-only. You could make it so that the seer version is level 5 and the psion version is level 5, while the seer version lets you use it at touch range and the psion version is self-only but without concentration. The target should be the one nauseated, not the manifester. Looks useful and versatile, as powers should be. Interesting suggestion. Let me mull it over. I'll have a look at the clauses of levitate, psionic just to see how to word it, but I think that would probably be a very good solution. I can see how you feel that the target should become nauseated, since they are experiencing the effect. I suppose I just viewed it as the manifester being the channel between the two probable futures while the target was simply the linking factor. I'll think it over.
cymbolik 03-17-07, 04:02 PM	Alright, I've changed quite a bit. 1) Psions and wilders gain access to this power at the same level as a seer would, instead of at level 7. 2) I've increased the duration from concentration +1 round/2levels to discourage/minimize the potential abuse of solicit psicrystal when manifesting this power. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. 3) I've added in a special clause which allows seers more flexibility when using this power: a) Seers can target themselves. b) Seers need only take a standard action to manifest this power if they are targetting themselves, and only themselves, so they cannot use the second augment when doing this. c) Seers only become sickened and not nauseated when they target themselves, and only themselves, with this power. I may need some help on the wording of the special clause to remove ambiguity.
cymbolik 03-19-07, 07:37 AM	Alright. I'm quite happy with the way this power looks now. I'd like one last round of critique before I submit it to my DM for revision so my seer can research it as his next 5th level power. So, fire away.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-20-07, 01:44 AM	Probability Theory Clairsentience Level: Seer 5, psion/wilder 5 Display: Auditory, Visual Manifesting Time: 1 full round action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Concentration +1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: Seer 9, psion/wilder 9 As you place your hand upon your target your mind is plunged into the endless possibilities of time. Reaching out, you draw upon one of these alternate futures and channel the strength of your target and one of these probable selves between each other, enveloping your target with a blurred image of its probable self superimposed over it. Maintaining concentration, you smile to yourself as your target surges forward, empowered by the possibility of greatness. Upon manifesting this power you have the option of improving one key feature of your target for as long as you maintain concentration +1 round for every manifester level you have. This improvement can take the form of a +1 insight bonus to attack and damage rolls, a +1 insight bonus to caster or manifester levels and a +1 increase to the DC of all spells or powers, a +5 insight bonus to skill checks and a +5 ft. insight bonus to base movement, or a +1 insight bonus to all saving throws and AC. When this power ends or is dispelled youbecome nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the duration of this power as the stresses of altering time and probability take their toll. Special: When a seer manifests this power they can choose to target themself and only require a standard action to manifest this power when doing so. This applies only if the seer is the singular target of this power. A seer only becomes nauseated when this power ends if they did not target themself. If the seer is the target of this power they are simply sickened. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways: 1.For every 2 additional power points you spend the bonus you choose to provide your target is increased by 1. In the case of the movement speed, this is increased by 5ft. 2.For every 2 additional power points you spend you may affect one more target with the same bonus. Saying your penalized when it is dispelled is redundant, dispel already causes a spell to end as though its duration expires. The seer effect is nice, very cool to see some workable and useful clarisentience buffs (most of the ones they have aren't that good). I think you could get away with it as a level 4 power, but the manifester level bonus is a tricky one. In fact, the manifetsr level bonus is too good. It should augment at +5 or only improve the save DCs. I see problems at 20th level involving maximized concussion blasts.
cymbolik 03-20-07, 08:39 AM	So, would you suggest that I just hike up the DC and give temporary spell slot/power points, or hike up the caster/manifester level and give temporary spell slot/power points. The spell slot would be of the highest level available and, in the case of prepared casters, they would be able to use the slot to spontaneously cast any spell they know. In the case of power points it would be a number of power points equal to the chracter level so they can manifest one power for free at full augmentation. But which one? Caster/manifester level or DC boost?
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-20-07, 08:45 PM	Caster/manifester level or DC boost? With psionics, it does them both. That's the main problem. However, psions have to pay for it (assuming you don't give bonus power points and spell slots), so just a manifester level/caster level boost should be fine. At level 9, it's not too gamebreaking to scale at +1 per 2 pp, so I don't think it will too much of a problem. Oh, and the speed boost is too good. Split it up and drop the skill boost to +2.
cymbolik 03-21-07, 06:45 AM	With psionics, it does them both. That's the main problem. However, psions have to pay for it (assuming you don't give bonus power points and spell slots), so just a manifester level/caster level boost should be fine. At level 9, it's not too gamebreaking to scale at +1 per 2 pp, so I don't think it will too much of a problem. I know that adding a manifester level has the potential of raising the DC of a power, which is why I'm currently trying to balance that portion of the power as per my post above. Unlike casters they do have to pay for scaling though, so I'm torn between giving a temporary spells slot/power points. After all, they'd only be able to use the slot/power points once. Alternatively I could grant a bonus to manifester levels and temporarily grant the target access to a single spell/power that the probable self has memorized/knows. The DM could select this power/spell and, in the case of prepared casters, they would be able to sacrifice one of their prepared spells of the same level as this spell in order to cast it. I'm just looking for a way of balancing this with the other abilities, since the insight to attack and damage counts toward every attack and damage roll the target makes, etc. Oh, and the speed boost is too good. Split it up and drop the skill boost to +2. Are you telling me or suggesting? ;) I don't think it's too good. I mean, at level 20, with Overchannel (Overchannel to 23rd level, 5d8 damage), this power can be manifested on a single target at the maximum augment, granting an overall +12 to skills and a total increase of 40 feet to base movement. Comparatively, a monk at 20th level has a 60 feet adjustment to movement speed.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 12:32 PM	Copy & pasted pretty much all of this thread to go home and ruminate with (a lot to take in). …The ass!
Zumarai 03-22-07, 03:59 AM	Sorry it took so long to reply, but I like to print out a hard copy of things like this and read it at leisure at home instead of reading it hunched over my desk at work. I thought about these changes to the power and the wording/grammar – what do you think? Probability Theory Clairsentience Level: Seer 5, psion/wilder 5 Display: Auditory, Visual Manifesting Time: 1 full round action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Concentration +1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: Seer 9, psion/wilder 9 As you place your hand upon your target your mind is plunged into the endless possibilities of time. Reaching out, you draw upon one of these alternate futures and channel the strength of your target and one of these probable selves between each other, enveloping your target with a blurred image of its probable self superimposed over it. Maintaining concentration, you smile to yourself as your target surges forward, empowered by the possibility of greatness. Upon manifesting this power you have the option of improving one key feature of your target. This improvement takes the form of an insight bonus to one of the following choices: - +1 to attack rolls - +1 to damage rolls - +1 to caster or manifester level - +1 to DC's of all spells or powers - +2 to all Skill checks - +5 to all modes of movement When this power ends or is dispelled you become nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the duration of this power as the stresses of altering time and probability take their toll. Special: When a seer manifests this power they can choose to target themselves and only require a standard action to manifest this power when doing so. This applies only if the seer is the singular target of this power. A seer only becomes nauseated when this power ends if they did not target themselves. If the seer is the only target of this power they are simply sickened. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways: 1.For every 2 additional power points you spend the bonus you choose to provide your target is increased by 1. In the case of the movement speed, this is increased by 5ft. 2.For every 2 additional power points you spend you may affect one additional target with the same bonus.
cymbolik 03-22-07, 01:48 PM	I'd love to say yeah, but I'm not gonna lie. The idea was to affect two areas at once, not split them out as they are in your example. For 9 power points I'd expect to get more than a mere +1 bonus to a singular roll or whatever the case may be. Compare: Precognition, Defensive Clairsentience Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 1 Your awareness extends a fraction of a second into the future, allowing you to better evade an opponent’s blows. You gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and on all saving throws. If caught in a situation where your Dexterity bonus isn’t applied to your Armor Class, this bonus to AC and saving throws does not apply. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the insight bonus gained increases by 1. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action. Precognition, Offensive Clairsentience Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Material and visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action; see text Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 1 Your awareness extends a fraction of a second into the future, allowing you to better land blows against your opponent. You gain a +1 insight bonus on your attack rolls. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways. 1. For every 3 additional power points you spend, the insight bonus gained on your attack rolls increases by 1. 2. If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a swift action. Sure, they scale to the same bonus as probability theory in the long run, but for 7 power points into these 2 powers you get a net +3, whereas probability theory gives a net +2 for 9. For 13 power points these 2 powers give you +5, and with 13 power points in probability theory you'd get net +6. Now, you might say that it's already starting to out-perform the other 2 powers at this level, but remember that that 6 is being split between two areas. Additionally they have the following benefits it doesn't: 1) They last a full minute per level, much longer than probability theory does. 2) They're both standard actions with an augment to manifest as a swift action, as opposed to full round action or standard action, depending on circumstances. 3) Neither of them causes a condition like nausea or sickness to occur. I think I'm going to stick with mine as is for now, except that I'm definitely going to take out the DC boost and instead add in a bonus power/spell known for the duration of the power.
Zumarai 03-23-07, 03:58 AM	I get ya. Well how about? Probability Theory Clairsentience Level: Seer 5, psion/wilder 5 Display: Auditory, Visual Manifesting Time: 1 full round action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: Concentration +1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: Seer 9, psion/wilder 9 As you place your hand upon your target your mind is plunged into the endless possibilities of time. Reaching out, you draw upon one of these alternate futures and channel the strength of your target and one of these probable selves between each other, enveloping your target with a blurred image of its probable self superimposed over it. Maintaining concentration, you smile to yourself as your target surges forward, empowered by the possibility of greatness. Upon manifesting this power you have the option of improving one key feature of your target. This improvement takes the form of an insight bonus to one of the following choices: - +1 to attack and damage rolls - +1 to caster or manifester level and +1 to the DC of spells or powers - +2 to all Skill checks and +5 to all modes of movement - +1 to AC and all saving throws When this power ends or is dispelled you become nauseated for a number of rounds equal to the duration of this power as the stresses of altering time and probability take their toll. Special: When a seer manifests this power they can choose to target themselves and only require a standard action to manifest this power when doing so. This applies only if the seer is the singular target of this power. A seer only becomes nauseated when this power ends if they did not target themselves. If the seer is the only target of this power they are simply sickened. Augment: You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways: 1.For every 3 additional power points you spend the bonus you choose to provide your target is increased by 1. In the case of the movement speed, this is increased by 5ft. 2.For every 3 additional power points you spend you may affect one additional target with the same bonus.
cymbolik 03-23-07, 04:54 AM	Okay, that's my counter to your suggestion: a) I've changed the duration to a fixed amount of time. b) The power is now dismissable c) Target gains +1 caster/manifester level and deals +1 damage per die with spells and powers they cast or manifest. d) The nauseated condition now lasts for 1 minute per round this power was in effect. I know the +1 damage to every die to spell/power damage is maybe high, but bear in mind that full BAB characters get the bonus to their attack rolls and damage rolls every time they swing. That said I am prepared to tone it down to +1 damage to spells or powers that deal damage instead of every die. The thing is that the power does have a penalty, which is why it's effects are slightly more powerful than one would expect for a power at this level. I don't know of any spells/powers that cause you to become nauseated/sickened just by using them. If there are any I'd like to know about them so I can compare their effects to what probability theory does.
sciguy98 03-23-07, 05:04 AM	I love your power as written thus far, but if you're still worried about bonus powerpoints, then maybe you should take a page from the barbarian class and make them special bonus powerpoints. The points you use count against you once the effect ends. But honestly, I like it the way it is. ^_^
Zumarai 03-23-07, 06:23 AM	The thing is that the power does have a penalty, which is why it's effects are slightly more powerful than one would expect for a power at this level. I don't know of any spells/powers that cause you to become nauseated/sickened just by using them. If there are any I'd like to know about them so I can compare their effects to what probability theory does. Maybe we should get rid of the nauseated/sickened action?
cymbolik 03-23-07, 07:38 AM	Maybe we should get rid of the nauseated/sickened action? You mean take it out so we can water down the effects of the power because suddenly the balancing factor is gone? I don't think that's a good idea. No, let me rephrase. That's not the concept I had in mind and I don't want to change something that's been a part of this power since I first thought of it. I love your power as written thus far, but if you're still worried about bonus powerpoints, then maybe you should take a page from the barbarian class and make them special bonus powerpoints. The points you use count against you once the effect ends. But honestly, I like it the way it is. ^_^ Thanks. I've decided not to use the bonus power points/spell slot. I think if melee fighters can get a bonus to their attacks and damage, why can't casters or manifesters? I think I will decrease the damage from every die to instead affect a spell or power overall.
Zumarai 03-23-07, 07:47 AM	You mean take it out so we can water down the effects of the power because suddenly the balancing factor is gone? No, I meant get rid of it, period. But if it's part of your original concept, and you want to keep it, than go for it.
cymbolik 03-26-07, 07:04 AM	Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. Net issue over the weekend, so couldn't reply. Apart from my cosmetic/aesthetic reason for keeping the nausea effect in the power just because it was part of the original concept there is another reason I feel it needs to be kept in. Balance. The two powers I quoted you scale to about the same level of power with augmentation in the long run if probability theory were to be manifested at full augmentation on a single target. However, probability theory offers that bonus to two "related" rolls/values, and the option to improve one of 4 sets, making it far more versatile than the precognition powers. Without a balancing mechanic I'm worried that this power is too good, comparatively, since there is a set of powers that already does what this one does. What it boils down to is that, due to powers scaling as effectively as they do, it would make sense for someone to take probabilty theory and use psychic reformation to replace precognition, offensive and precognition defensive with two other powers, since probability theory does what both those powers do, and better. Agreed, or am I doing that thing some psionics designers do where they overcompensate for the perceived "broken-ness" of the system to keep the psi-haters off their backs?