New System for Epic Level Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

New System for Epic Level Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lycanthromancer
06-08-07, 02:26 PM Has anyone made a new system for psionics at epic level? Preferably to differentiate between it and the Vancian crap? A number of level 10+ epic psionic powers, feats, epic constructs, and so on?

I ask because it is something I suddenly find my self interested in, given that I'm about to start a game that is planned to head into epic.

Also, for Bacris and associated individuals (you know who you are), do you think there's any real interest in it? Perhaps something for me to do on the side (when I'm not on my other current projects)?
Bacris
06-08-07, 04:24 PM Honestly, I'd prefer to expand the options available with the current system, clarify and clean it up, rather than develop a brand new system for epic psionics.

But that's just me.
Tyroki
06-08-07, 06:00 PM The current system looks bizzare in my opinion >.>
So if anyone can do it, it'll probably be you Lycan.

Maybe you can get some others to help you and do a collaboration sort of project ^^
red_scare87
06-08-07, 06:06 PM Yeah, I agree that there needs to be another system for Epic Psionics. I was thinking before about in epic levels you could give existing powers new augment options.

Hmmm...it's an intersting project to say the least.
NoldorForce
06-09-07, 12:50 AM My opinions:
-Once you've taken the Epic Manifesting feat, you shouldn't actually be making your own set-in-stone powers. Psionics is designed for versatility, after all. Instead, I'd suggest granting some quantity of epic PP that scaled with your manifester level, which could then be used to manifest epic powers.
-Instead of spending various resources to make specific spells, you could instead spend resources to learn the base versions of seeds, which could then be augmented in various ways. The cost to produce each seed would rise based on the quantity you've already learned.
-If you want to use two or more seeds together, you also have to spend resources, but less at that.
-Factors work as normal augmentations, and mitigating factors work as negative augmentations.
Tyroki
06-09-07, 02:28 AM I like the idea of Epic Augmentations over the whole "Seed" thing.
Suldarr'essalar
06-09-07, 04:20 AM Has anyone made a new system for psionics at epic level? I see it as 10+level manifesting and epic manifesting.

For both you need 'seed', or as we prefer 'mental paths' (or 'mental pathways') Some sample paths (and discipline tied to them):
Control (Telepathy)
Communication (Telepathy)
Energy (Psychkinesis)
Time (Psychoportation)
Space (Psychoportation)
Matter (Psychometabolism) and so on.

I thought of them, as epic feats that would be required to manifest a given epic power, and give some minor benefit to manifesting non-epic powers (for example expending psionic focus (and perhaps paying additional pp while manifesting powers) Control would increase DC for suggesstion - dominate type powers, while Communication would work on greater distances).

An example of a 10th level power would be a 3rd edition telepathy power Thrall. It would require access to time, control and perhaps communication paths to be able to learn and manifest the power, and had XP cost of ~500xp per HD of creature being enthralled.
Another example would be a power used by Dindriex to move the on of the cities of Jhaamdath to the astral plane. It could require paths such as: Matter, Space, and Control (without the last one, it the same thing as with the city - you succeed, but you kill all living creatures within, and create Caller in Darkness from them).

The epic powers, as I see them, are in a form of an epic metaconcert (I don't know, perhaps an epic feat that allows one to create an epic metaconcert, or just an augment of the power). Manifesting epic powers would include a successful psicraft and/or knowledge checks.

An example of an epic power would be a power that grants the Entity the ability to shape the plane as if it were a deity and a fragment around it (~100 ft per 5 points over 30 in psicraft test?) would have the divine morphic trait, except that it would require time and successful knowledge (psionics, planes) checks to alter the plane.

Or something :)
Witch
06-09-07, 10:12 AM My opinions:
-Once you've taken the Epic Manifesting feat, you shouldn't actually be making your own set-in-stone powers. Psionics is designed for versatility, after all. Instead, I'd suggest granting some quantity of epic PP that scaled with your manifester level, which could then be used to manifest epic powers.
-Instead of spending various resources to make specific spells, you could instead spend resources to learn the base versions of seeds, which could then be augmented in various ways. The cost to produce each seed would rise based on the quantity you've already learned.
-If you want to use two or more seeds together, you also have to spend resources, but less at that.
-Factors work as normal augmentations, and mitigating factors work as negative augmentations.

Doing this would be granting psionics far too much versatility and would overpower them. It's essentially saying "Heck - you can have all the epic spells wizards have, but on the spot!"
NoldorForce
06-09-07, 11:00 PM Doing this would be granting psionics far too much versatility and would overpower them. It's essentially saying "Heck - you can have all the epic spells wizards have, but on the spot!"That's if you pay for all of them. And pay for all of the combinations. Which would start to get expensive quickly. Plus, epic spellcasters can get far more slots than epic manifesters, and some of the "official" (ie, in WotC books) ad-hoc factors for epic spells/powers allow for free scaling. All of which makes epic spellcasters pretty flexible on their own if they wish it.

If the versatility is too much, then make the seeds more focused, though still more versatile than existing powers.

How would you make an epic manifesting system, by the way? The existing system is a cut-and-paste of the epic spellcasting system, which completely belies most of the mechanical ideals of psionics.
Tyroki
06-09-07, 11:09 PM I still like the idea of Epic Augmentations >.>
Witch
06-10-07, 01:02 PM How would you make an epic manifesting system, by the way?
I revamp the spellcasting system in a Feanmerc method, and would do the same for psionics - maintaining the ability of the base seeds (which are powers themselves) to be augmented, but not to have their effect drastically changed.
Lycanthromancer
06-10-07, 02:26 PM I'm going to have to do some in-depth studying of epic spellcasting, but I was thinking about doing some seriously powerful augments in existing powers, each of which has the [epic] descriptor that will help keep lower level powers useful, and extend their viability well above the levels they are now - including breaking the caps on powers like dispel psionics and tornado blast (which shouldn't even be there anyway).

I'll need to give it some thought, as I'm not sure how I'll do it yet.

I do have a nifty idea for extending a manifester's pp without actually gaining a whole lot more - you can manifest powers for half the number of pp (including augments), but your ML cap is halved, which essentially doubles your pps. Minimum manifester level: 30.

Meh. I dunno yet.
Witch
06-10-07, 02:37 PM I'm going to have to do some in-depth studying of epic spellcasting, but I was thinking about doing some seriously powerful augments in existing powers, each of which has the [epic] descriptor that will help keep lower level powers useful, and extend their viability well above the levels they are now - including breaking the caps on powers like dispel psionics and tornado blast (which shouldn't even be there anyway).
All of this serve for nothing but increasing the power and versatility of psionics above that of magic. People here pride themselves on psionics being better balanced than magic - keep it that way. Many powers already don't even have an augmentation cap, and those that have can simply use an Intensify Power feat. There is no need for new "epic augmentations", which I remain extremely sceptical of. First level powers shouldn't ever be as effective as, say, an epic level spell.

I do have a nifty idea for extending a manifester's pp without actually gaining a whole lot more - you can manifest powers for half the number of pp (including augments), but your ML cap is halved, which essentially doubles your pps. Minimum manifester level: 30.
Pointless. For buffs, this will simply lead to your buffs being immediately dispelled. For offence, it will simply lead to never being able to pierce power resistance or not doing enough damage to pierce DR or ER. This is only useful in the case of rare utility powers.
Lycanthromancer
06-10-07, 02:41 PM Maybe I didn't describe that well enough. At level 30, you can fully augment a 30 pp power for 15 pp, but your new pp-per-manifestation-cap is now 15, rather than 30. Basically, your 1pp = your old 2pp. Spend 1 power point, gain 2 power points in augmentation. You stay just as powerful for a single manifestation (15 pp energy ray now does 30d6 damage), but your efficiency doubles.

As to the rest of it...we'll just have to see.
Witch
06-10-07, 02:43 PM Such a feat would be imbalanced.
Lycanthromancer
06-10-07, 02:45 PM It's frickin' EPIC. It's already unbalanced. :D

That aside, perhaps make it a metapsionic feat. Expend focus, yadda-yadda-yadda.
Witch
06-10-07, 02:52 PM It's frickin' EPIC. It's already unbalanced. :D
I always see that excuse, and it never ceases to annoy me. A perceived imbalance at epic is no reason to worsen it, and I don't think it's a good idea for people who have the idea of "Epic is unbalanced anyway" to design for it. I like epic play, and it can be balanced - it's more tough to maintain than in a regular game, but it's still doable. Throwing it out of the window by saying the equivalent of "Here, double all your spell slots" isn't a good idea.

That aside, perhaps make it a metapsionic feat. Expend focus, yadda-yadda-yadda.
Possibly a better idea, but I'm still dubious.
Lycanthromancer
06-10-07, 02:55 PM I'll make it reasonably well-balanced. Or at least I'll try.

At this point, magic has so many things on psionics that I don't think I could make it MORE unbalanced if I tried.

Believe me when I say that I would rather have balanced psionics than uber-arcane imbalance.
Tyroki
06-10-07, 04:19 PM As far as I've seen, the arcane lovers whine alot about Psionics and the people who want to make it a little stronger while keeping what balance they can ^^

Lycan, I love it. Epic Augmentations ^^ I mean, the seed thing is all well and good, but psionics seems to be more about Augmentations that actual powers. The augmentations of a power affect the output, so, it's only logical that Epic Psionics delve in the realms of Epic Augmentation.

Half the cost you say? Hmm... For some things, that may be a little much. Perhaps dropping the PP usage of a power by 25% (Or 30, whichever rounds better), rather than a straight half. Thats already pretty damn epic, especially considering how many PP you can have xD Also, if the Epic Augmentations cost the Epic Power Points, then you have a whole new field of fun, and people won't whine because oh look, you can't do it forever =3

Theres alot that can be developed through Epic Augmentations that could add some real flavour without the nitpicking that Seeds seem to have. Maybe have the augmentations alter the effect of a power, giving it the ability to be two different powers in one with augments to increase the effects ability as per usual, but at the cost of Epic PP. See? Theres alot you can work with ^^ Show those wizzy lovers who's boss ^^
Lycanthromancer
06-11-07, 12:08 PM Perhaps I'll throw in some "epic power points," which is a separate pool from "normal" power points. You get very few epic pp, but they pack a huge punch, and can be used for various things, including manifesting epic powers and adding epic augments on normal powers.
Tyroki
06-11-07, 05:08 PM Sounds like a plan. Build up a system and we'll all help you balance the blighter ^^
Lycanthromancer
06-11-07, 08:15 PM You just want to get a look at my psionics junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D
Tyroki
06-12-07, 08:45 AM You just want to get a look at my psionics junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D

Can you blame me? I'm poor -.-; I lost my job a wee while ago, so I'm stuck on a benefit still... Freebee's = Gooooood xD
Valgaav
06-12-07, 02:02 PM You just want to get a look at my junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D

Fix'd! *departs once more to the land of the Lurker. but not the land of the Lurk*
Lycanthromancer
06-12-07, 02:05 PM *You get eaten by an epic-grue. Don't you wish you had a better psionics system now?*
Tyroki
06-12-07, 06:52 PM I really don't like the whole seeds idea. It kinda... Meh. Thats why I want to see a new system ^^

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 06-08-07, 02:26 PM	Has anyone made a new system for psionics at epic level? Preferably to differentiate between it and the Vancian crap? A number of level 10+ epic psionic powers, feats, epic constructs, and so on? I ask because it is something I suddenly find my self interested in, given that I'm about to start a game that is planned to head into epic. Also, for Bacris and associated individuals (you know who you are), do you think there's any real interest in it? Perhaps something for me to do on the side (when I'm not on my other current projects)?
Bacris 06-08-07, 04:24 PM	Honestly, I'd prefer to expand the options available with the current system, clarify and clean it up, rather than develop a brand new system for epic psionics. But that's just me.
Tyroki 06-08-07, 06:00 PM	The current system looks bizzare in my opinion >.> So if anyone can do it, it'll probably be you Lycan. Maybe you can get some others to help you and do a collaboration sort of project ^^
red_scare87 06-08-07, 06:06 PM	Yeah, I agree that there needs to be another system for Epic Psionics. I was thinking before about in epic levels you could give existing powers new augment options. Hmmm...it's an intersting project to say the least.
NoldorForce 06-09-07, 12:50 AM	My opinions: -Once you've taken the Epic Manifesting feat, you shouldn't actually be making your own set-in-stone powers. Psionics is designed for versatility, after all. Instead, I'd suggest granting some quantity of epic PP that scaled with your manifester level, which could then be used to manifest epic powers. -Instead of spending various resources to make specific spells, you could instead spend resources to learn the base versions of seeds, which could then be augmented in various ways. The cost to produce each seed would rise based on the quantity you've already learned. -If you want to use two or more seeds together, you also have to spend resources, but less at that. -Factors work as normal augmentations, and mitigating factors work as negative augmentations.
Tyroki 06-09-07, 02:28 AM	I like the idea of Epic Augmentations over the whole "Seed" thing.
Suldarr'essalar 06-09-07, 04:20 AM	Has anyone made a new system for psionics at epic level? I see it as 10+level manifesting and epic manifesting. For both you need 'seed', or as we prefer 'mental paths' (or 'mental pathways') Some sample paths (and discipline tied to them): Control (Telepathy) Communication (Telepathy) Energy (Psychkinesis) Time (Psychoportation) Space (Psychoportation) Matter (Psychometabolism) and so on. I thought of them, as epic feats that would be required to manifest a given epic power, and give some minor benefit to manifesting non-epic powers (for example expending psionic focus (and perhaps paying additional pp while manifesting powers) Control would increase DC for suggesstion - dominate type powers, while Communication would work on greater distances). An example of a 10th level power would be a 3rd edition telepathy power Thrall. It would require access to time, control and perhaps communication paths to be able to learn and manifest the power, and had XP cost of ~500xp per HD of creature being enthralled. Another example would be a power used by Dindriex to move the on of the cities of Jhaamdath to the astral plane. It could require paths such as: Matter, Space, and Control (without the last one, it the same thing as with the city - you succeed, but you kill all living creatures within, and create Caller in Darkness from them). The epic powers, as I see them, are in a form of an epic metaconcert (I don't know, perhaps an epic feat that allows one to create an epic metaconcert, or just an augment of the power). Manifesting epic powers would include a successful psicraft and/or knowledge checks. An example of an epic power would be a power that grants the Entity the ability to shape the plane as if it were a deity and a fragment around it (~100 ft per 5 points over 30 in psicraft test?) would have the divine morphic trait, except that it would require time and successful knowledge (psionics, planes) checks to alter the plane. Or something :)
Witch 06-09-07, 10:12 AM	My opinions: -Once you've taken the Epic Manifesting feat, you shouldn't actually be making your own set-in-stone powers. Psionics is designed for versatility, after all. Instead, I'd suggest granting some quantity of epic PP that scaled with your manifester level, which could then be used to manifest epic powers. -Instead of spending various resources to make specific spells, you could instead spend resources to learn the base versions of seeds, which could then be augmented in various ways. The cost to produce each seed would rise based on the quantity you've already learned. -If you want to use two or more seeds together, you also have to spend resources, but less at that. -Factors work as normal augmentations, and mitigating factors work as negative augmentations. Doing this would be granting psionics far too much versatility and would overpower them. It's essentially saying "Heck - you can have all the epic spells wizards have, but on the spot!"
NoldorForce 06-09-07, 11:00 PM	Doing this would be granting psionics far too much versatility and would overpower them. It's essentially saying "Heck - you can have all the epic spells wizards have, but on the spot!"That's if you pay for all of them. And pay for all of the combinations. Which would start to get expensive quickly. Plus, epic spellcasters can get far more slots than epic manifesters, and some of the "official" (ie, in WotC books) ad-hoc factors for epic spells/powers allow for free scaling. All of which makes epic spellcasters pretty flexible on their own if they wish it. If the versatility is too much, then make the seeds more focused, though still more versatile than existing powers. How would you make an epic manifesting system, by the way? The existing system is a cut-and-paste of the epic spellcasting system, which completely belies most of the mechanical ideals of psionics.
Tyroki 06-09-07, 11:09 PM	I still like the idea of Epic Augmentations >.>
Witch 06-10-07, 01:02 PM	How would you make an epic manifesting system, by the way? I revamp the spellcasting system in a Feanmerc method, and would do the same for psionics - maintaining the ability of the base seeds (which are powers themselves) to be augmented, but not to have their effect drastically changed.
Lycanthromancer 06-10-07, 02:26 PM	I'm going to have to do some in-depth studying of epic spellcasting, but I was thinking about doing some seriously powerful augments in existing powers, each of which has the [epic] descriptor that will help keep lower level powers useful, and extend their viability well above the levels they are now - including breaking the caps on powers like dispel psionics and tornado blast (which shouldn't even be there anyway). I'll need to give it some thought, as I'm not sure how I'll do it yet. I do have a nifty idea for extending a manifester's pp without actually gaining a whole lot more - you can manifest powers for half the number of pp (including augments), but your ML cap is halved, which essentially doubles your pps. Minimum manifester level: 30. Meh. I dunno yet.
Witch 06-10-07, 02:37 PM	I'm going to have to do some in-depth studying of epic spellcasting, but I was thinking about doing some seriously powerful augments in existing powers, each of which has the [epic] descriptor that will help keep lower level powers useful, and extend their viability well above the levels they are now - including breaking the caps on powers like dispel psionics and tornado blast (which shouldn't even be there anyway). All of this serve for nothing but increasing the power and versatility of psionics above that of magic. People here pride themselves on psionics being better balanced than magic - keep it that way. Many powers already don't even have an augmentation cap, and those that have can simply use an Intensify Power feat. There is no need for new "epic augmentations", which I remain extremely sceptical of. First level powers shouldn't ever be as effective as, say, an epic level spell. I do have a nifty idea for extending a manifester's pp without actually gaining a whole lot more - you can manifest powers for half the number of pp (including augments), but your ML cap is halved, which essentially doubles your pps. Minimum manifester level: 30. Pointless. For buffs, this will simply lead to your buffs being immediately dispelled. For offence, it will simply lead to never being able to pierce power resistance or not doing enough damage to pierce DR or ER. This is only useful in the case of rare utility powers.
Lycanthromancer 06-10-07, 02:41 PM	Maybe I didn't describe that well enough. At level 30, you can fully augment a 30 pp power for 15 pp, but your new pp-per-manifestation-cap is now 15, rather than 30. Basically, your 1pp = your old 2pp. Spend 1 power point, gain 2 power points in augmentation. You stay just as powerful for a single manifestation (15 pp energy ray now does 30d6 damage), but your efficiency doubles. As to the rest of it...we'll just have to see.
Witch 06-10-07, 02:43 PM	Such a feat would be imbalanced.
Lycanthromancer 06-10-07, 02:45 PM	It's frickin' EPIC. It's already unbalanced. :D That aside, perhaps make it a metapsionic feat. Expend focus, yadda-yadda-yadda.
Witch 06-10-07, 02:52 PM	It's frickin' EPIC. It's already unbalanced. :D I always see that excuse, and it never ceases to annoy me. A perceived imbalance at epic is no reason to worsen it, and I don't think it's a good idea for people who have the idea of "Epic is unbalanced anyway" to design for it. I like epic play, and it can be balanced - it's more tough to maintain than in a regular game, but it's still doable. Throwing it out of the window by saying the equivalent of "Here, double all your spell slots" isn't a good idea. That aside, perhaps make it a metapsionic feat. Expend focus, yadda-yadda-yadda. Possibly a better idea, but I'm still dubious.
Lycanthromancer 06-10-07, 02:55 PM	I'll make it reasonably well-balanced. Or at least I'll try. At this point, magic has so many things on psionics that I don't think I could make it MORE unbalanced if I tried. Believe me when I say that I would rather have balanced psionics than uber-arcane imbalance.
Tyroki 06-10-07, 04:19 PM	As far as I've seen, the arcane lovers whine alot about Psionics and the people who want to make it a little stronger while keeping what balance they can ^^ Lycan, I love it. Epic Augmentations ^^ I mean, the seed thing is all well and good, but psionics seems to be more about Augmentations that actual powers. The augmentations of a power affect the output, so, it's only logical that Epic Psionics delve in the realms of Epic Augmentation. Half the cost you say? Hmm... For some things, that may be a little much. Perhaps dropping the PP usage of a power by 25% (Or 30, whichever rounds better), rather than a straight half. Thats already pretty damn epic, especially considering how many PP you can have xD Also, if the Epic Augmentations cost the Epic Power Points, then you have a whole new field of fun, and people won't whine because oh look, you can't do it forever =3 Theres alot that can be developed through Epic Augmentations that could add some real flavour without the nitpicking that Seeds seem to have. Maybe have the augmentations alter the effect of a power, giving it the ability to be two different powers in one with augments to increase the effects ability as per usual, but at the cost of Epic PP. See? Theres alot you can work with ^^ Show those wizzy lovers who's boss ^^
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 12:08 PM	Perhaps I'll throw in some "epic power points," which is a separate pool from "normal" power points. You get very few epic pp, but they pack a huge punch, and can be used for various things, including manifesting epic powers and adding epic augments on normal powers.
Tyroki 06-11-07, 05:08 PM	Sounds like a plan. Build up a system and we'll all help you balance the blighter ^^
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 08:15 PM	You just want to get a look at my psionics junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D
Tyroki 06-12-07, 08:45 AM	You just want to get a look at my psionics junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D Can you blame me? I'm poor -.-; I lost my job a wee while ago, so I'm stuck on a benefit still... Freebee's = Gooooood xD
Valgaav 06-12-07, 02:02 PM	You just want to get a look at my junk for free, don't you? DON'T YOU?! :D Fix'd! departs once more to the land of the Lurker. but not the land of the Lurk
Lycanthromancer 06-12-07, 02:05 PM	You get eaten by an epic-grue. Don't you wish you had a better psionics system now?
Tyroki 06-12-07, 06:52 PM	I really don't like the whole seeds idea. It kinda... Meh. Thats why I want to see a new system ^^