New to it all and I'm curious about.. Astral Construct! [Archive] - Wizards Community

New to it all and I'm curious about.. Astral Construct! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Morgoloth
09-09-07, 08:01 PM Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell.

I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc.

Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o
Tempest Stormwind
09-09-07, 08:14 PM Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell.

Power, not spell, but yes.

[quote[I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc.

Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o[/QUOTE]

It doesn't scale at all. See the FAQ at the top of the forum.

Think of it this way: The cost of a 2nd level power is 3pp. Using Astral Construct to produce a second-level construct costs 3pp. Thus, you're effectively spending a 2nd level spell slot to get a 2nd level effect. You are NOT using a 1st level spell to get a 2nd level effect.

Also, note that you CANNOT spend more power points on any manifestation than your manifester level. Despite having 10+ power points available, a level 3 psion cannot throw out a level 5 construct.
InkBlot
09-09-07, 08:18 PM First of all, astral construct is a power. Not a spell.

Mechanically, the astral construct power is no better than a wizard's summon monster # spell. Since summon monster can give you minions with divine spell-like abilities, and can give you multiple minions with one casting, it's far superiour to astral construct in pretty much every regard.

Astral construct's advantage is in flavor. An astral construct is a tulpa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa#Tulpa); a being brought forth from your imagination by force of will. Astral constructs look like anything you can imagine (check page 185 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook - "the manifester can mold or scult [an astral construct] according to his or her whim ..."). Their abilities can also be customized to suit your imagination.

For example, I once played a gnomish psion who had a big saint bernard dog as a wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). His astral constructs were perfect duplicates of his shaggy friend, and could perform a trip attack just like any well trained attack dog.
Morgoloth
09-09-07, 09:07 PM Power, not spell, but yes.

It doesn't scale at all. See the FAQ at the top of the forum.

Think of it this way: The cost of a 2nd level power is 3pp. Using Astral Construct to produce a second-level construct costs 3pp. Thus, you're effectively spending a 2nd level spell slot to get a 2nd level effect. You are NOT using a 1st level spell to get a 2nd level effect.

Also, note that you CANNOT spend more power points on any manifestation than your manifester level. Despite having 10+ power points available, a level 3 psion cannot throw out a level 5 construct.

Oh! I'm sorry, what I meant came out wrong. As you can see, I'm not used to Psionic talk. :)

What I meant to say was that it continues to stay useful, even as you grow in levels. You don't have to Augment the construct to make it appear similar in strength to your Psion's level, right? So if I was a level 3 Psion, and say a trap needed to be sprung, I could still expend the one power point and make a level one to spring it, hopefully?

And the duration is dependent on the Psion's level, not the AC's, correct? :o
Millenia
09-09-07, 09:17 PM Correct on both counts.
AntiDjinn
09-09-07, 11:01 PM Mechanically, Astral Construct is superior to Summon Monster spells, at least if you are looking at player mechanics rather than character mechanics.

Astral Construct is ready to play using the XPH alone; you don't need to memorize monster stats or paw through the monster books. You build what you need from a menu and a set of stat blocks that fits on 4 pages of text.

It is funny that they decided to nerf Astral Construct and cited delay of game and spamming the field with critters as a reason. The psion player can build the construct he needs from the options at hand and it hits the table. The wizard (or worse, the druid) has to wrack his brain to remember the right monster for the special abilities he needs (encouraging player metagaming) and then flip through the books to find the right monster or animal and apply the appropriate template. Who is the one actually slowing down the game?
Lycanthromancer
09-09-07, 11:15 PM Hey, you can be a wizard - even a wizard from the coast - with an Int score of less than 10. You'll just be pretty useless.
The_Ditto
09-10-07, 04:04 PM Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell.

I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc.

Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o

It's good .. not that great ... really ..

You can use my spreadsheet here (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/excel) to help stat them up, though .. (a few bugs in the books) .. :tiphat:

My Wilder/constructor compared his constructs to a Druid in our group once .. level 3-13 .. (over a year or so - periodic comparisons ..) ... and sure ... very often, my constructs would win in a toe-to-toe slug-fest ... however, as soon as we changed the terrain .. (ie water, air, etc), he started winning ... easily ...

Constructs are good in their element:
- on the ground
- vs things that try to slug back ...

Cheers!
:tiphat:
AntiDjinn
09-11-07, 03:39 AM Astral Constructs are very good against:

Undead. They are immune to most of their specials such as energy drain, disease, fear, etc.

Necromancers. They are immune to necromantic effects.

Assassins. They are immune to sneak attacks, death attacks, critical hits, and poison.

Telepaths (Enchanters too). Immune to mind-affecting effects. They are immune to phantasms, patterns, non-lethal damage, stunning, and others, so there a many spells that simply fail outright.

Astral Constructs are not so good against:

Anything that has better movement options. Something that can spring attack or flyby attack can carve one up at relatively low risk to itself. Astral Constucts are sturdy, but not exactly nimble.

Anything with an attack that works over Long (400 feet/level) range. Concussion Blast is your only C option with a range of Medium. Natural Invisibility is your only defense option against a long range attack. Unless your construct starts the fight fairly close to the other guy, it may be vaporized before it can get in his face.

Anything with a massive damage output and 3/4 or full BAB that doesn't depend on fancy or special attacks.

Another shaper. If two shapers decide to let their constructs duke it out, then you have a Pokemon arena duel, and it will come down to who makes the best picks. If both shapers are in the fight then odds are each can simply melt the other's construct (never a good idea to come at a shaper with anything made of ectoplasm unless you were hoping for a shimmering puddle of goo).
Sagetim
09-12-07, 02:04 AM I'd suggest getting the boost construct feat. Never got to use a psion in game, so I'm not sure if it's a great feat....but it certainly seems useful. At least to me. Anyone notice that they also obliterated the constructor PRC? Instead of having a guy that can summon (literally) a very unique army, we get stuck with the ecotopic adept. It's like getting stuck with the wizard who has 11 int at level 10. He's not completely useless, but damn well near pointless.

comparisons: The constructor could: manifest astral construct and get a bunch of lower level ones.
The ecotopic adept gets the ability to miraculously control more than one astral construct at once. His mental prowess is so impressive that he can somehow manage this feat...meanwhile the party wizard has summoned five celestial dogs just for the hell of it and has started a dog circus.

The Ecotopic adept requires feats to add abilities to his astral constructs, and cannot mix and match any of the feat based abilities with other feat based abilities.

The constructor got a list that expanded into class E abilities. They could mix and match as many as they damn well pleased. Some of them were even pretty scary (being able to shoot a spike volley as a class A ability? hello reusable area of effect for 1 pp.....)

The Constructor also had a list of feats that allowed them to do a large number of things with astral constructs, like automatically summoning lower level astral constructs when manifesting a higher level AC power.

The Ecotopic adept can meanwhile...well, they don't have a damn thing they can do that comes close to topping that.
Deekin
09-12-07, 02:17 AM I'd suggest getting the boost construct feat. Never got to use a psion in game, so I'm not sure if it's a great feat....but it certainly seems useful. At least to me. Anyone notice that they also obliterated the constructor PRC? Instead of having a guy that can summon (literally) a very unique army, we get stuck with the ecotopic adept. It's like getting stuck with the wizard who has 11 int at level 10. He's not completely useless, but damn well near pointless.

comparisons: The constructor could: manifest astral construct and get a bunch of lower level ones.
The ecotopic adept gets the ability to miraculously control more than one astral construct at once. His mental prowess is so impressive that he can somehow manage this feat...meanwhile the party wizard has summoned five celestial dogs just for the hell of it and has started a dog circus.

The Ecotopic adept requires feats to add abilities to his astral constructs, and cannot mix and match any of the feat based abilities with other feat based abilities.

The constructor got a list that expanded into class E abilities. They could mix and match as many as they damn well pleased. Some of them were even pretty scary (being able to shoot a spike volley as a class A ability? hello reusable area of effect for 1 pp.....)

The Constructor also had a list of feats that allowed them to do a large number of things with astral constructs, like automatically summoning lower level astral constructs when manifesting a higher level AC power.

The Ecotopic adept can meanwhile...well, they don't have a damn thing they can do that comes close to topping that.

The Constructor is still around (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).
deathbane
09-12-07, 09:05 AM Thanks for the constructor link.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 12:17 PM The Constructor is still around (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).

thank you deekin...it nearly brings tears to my eyes that such a beautiful prc has been updated.
Tempest Stormwind
09-12-07, 12:22 PM thank you deekin...it nearly brings tears to my eyes that such a beautiful prc has been updated.

My one, and only, complaint with it is that Utility Construct isn't anywhere near nice enough for a 7th level PrC ability. It's freakin' Unseen Servant + Mount.

We changed that in our game, to a redux of 3e's Ectomanipulation (just as you can trade down 1 C to get 2 Bs, and 1 B to get 2 As, with Ectomanipulation you can go the other way: 2 As for 1 B, 2 Bs for 1 C). I haven't hit that level yet but we don't foresee any serious problems.
Sagetim
09-12-07, 01:26 PM well, with the new prc, you would have 4 menu a abilities on a level 1 construct at level 8 in the prc (level 14)

you could then 'trade up' 2 level a's for a level b, two more level a's for a level b, then two level b's for a level C. hmmm...menu C abilities on a 1pp level 1 astral construct. or 7 pp for 4 level 1's with menu C abilities. all in one round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgoloth 09-09-07, 08:01 PM	Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell. I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc. Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o
Tempest Stormwind 09-09-07, 08:14 PM	Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell. Power, not spell, but yes. [quote[I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc. Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o[/QUOTE] It doesn't scale at all. See the FAQ at the top of the forum. Think of it this way: The cost of a 2nd level power is 3pp. Using Astral Construct to produce a second-level construct costs 3pp. Thus, you're effectively spending a 2nd level spell slot to get a 2nd level effect. You are NOT using a 1st level spell to get a 2nd level effect. Also, note that you CANNOT spend more power points on any manifestation than your manifester level. Despite having 10+ power points available, a level 3 psion cannot throw out a level 5 construct.
InkBlot 09-09-07, 08:18 PM	First of all, astral construct is a power. Not a spell. Mechanically, the astral construct power is no better than a wizard's summon monster # spell. Since summon monster can give you minions with divine spell-like abilities, and can give you multiple minions with one casting, it's far superiour to astral construct in pretty much every regard. Astral construct's advantage is in flavor. An astral construct is a tulpa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa#Tulpa); a being brought forth from your imagination by force of will. Astral constructs look like anything you can imagine (check page 185 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook - "the manifester can mold or scult [an astral construct] according to his or her whim ..."). Their abilities can also be customized to suit your imagination. For example, I once played a gnomish psion who had a big saint bernard dog as a wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). His astral constructs were perfect duplicates of his shaggy friend, and could perform a trip attack just like any well trained attack dog.
Morgoloth 09-09-07, 09:07 PM	Power, not spell, but yes. It doesn't scale at all. See the FAQ at the top of the forum. Think of it this way: The cost of a 2nd level power is 3pp. Using Astral Construct to produce a second-level construct costs 3pp. Thus, you're effectively spending a 2nd level spell slot to get a 2nd level effect. You are NOT using a 1st level spell to get a 2nd level effect. Also, note that you CANNOT spend more power points on any manifestation than your manifester level. Despite having 10+ power points available, a level 3 psion cannot throw out a level 5 construct. Oh! I'm sorry, what I meant came out wrong. As you can see, I'm not used to Psionic talk. :) What I meant to say was that it continues to stay useful, even as you grow in levels. You don't have to Augment the construct to make it appear similar in strength to your Psion's level, right? So if I was a level 3 Psion, and say a trap needed to be sprung, I could still expend the one power point and make a level one to spring it, hopefully? And the duration is dependent on the Psion's level, not the AC's, correct? :o
Millenia 09-09-07, 09:17 PM	Correct on both counts.
AntiDjinn 09-09-07, 11:01 PM	Mechanically, Astral Construct is superior to Summon Monster spells, at least if you are looking at player mechanics rather than character mechanics. Astral Construct is ready to play using the XPH alone; you don't need to memorize monster stats or paw through the monster books. You build what you need from a menu and a set of stat blocks that fits on 4 pages of text. It is funny that they decided to nerf Astral Construct and cited delay of game and spamming the field with critters as a reason. The psion player can build the construct he needs from the options at hand and it hits the table. The wizard (or worse, the druid) has to wrack his brain to remember the right monster for the special abilities he needs (encouraging player metagaming) and then flip through the books to find the right monster or animal and apply the appropriate template. Who is the one actually slowing down the game?
Lycanthromancer 09-09-07, 11:15 PM	Hey, you can be a wizard - even a wizard from the coast - with an Int score of less than 10. You'll just be pretty useless.
The_Ditto 09-10-07, 04:04 PM	Hello everyone! Brand new to this whole Psionic thing (heck, the last time I even bothered with anything psi like is when they used to be call psionicists ages ago). I've been thinking about creating a Psion.. and from what I can see here on the boards, the Astral Construct is widely considered a great spell. I can obviously see its uses. After all, for one power point, you can create a trap springer, and with the investment in points, you can make your own little bodyguard, servant, etc. Am I reading it right..? I'm envisioning that at higher levels, this level 1 psion ability just continues to scale into greatness. :o It's good .. not that great ... really .. You can use my spreadsheet here (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/excel) to help stat them up, though .. (a few bugs in the books) .. :tiphat: My Wilder/constructor compared his constructs to a Druid in our group once .. level 3-13 .. (over a year or so - periodic comparisons ..) ... and sure ... very often, my constructs would win in a toe-to-toe slug-fest ... however, as soon as we changed the terrain .. (ie water, air, etc), he started winning ... easily ... Constructs are good in their element: - on the ground - vs things that try to slug back ... Cheers! :tiphat:
AntiDjinn 09-11-07, 03:39 AM	Astral Constructs are very good against: Undead. They are immune to most of their specials such as energy drain, disease, fear, etc. Necromancers. They are immune to necromantic effects. Assassins. They are immune to sneak attacks, death attacks, critical hits, and poison. Telepaths (Enchanters too). Immune to mind-affecting effects. They are immune to phantasms, patterns, non-lethal damage, stunning, and others, so there a many spells that simply fail outright. Astral Constructs are not so good against: Anything that has better movement options. Something that can spring attack or flyby attack can carve one up at relatively low risk to itself. Astral Constucts are sturdy, but not exactly nimble. Anything with an attack that works over Long (400 feet/level) range. Concussion Blast is your only C option with a range of Medium. Natural Invisibility is your only defense option against a long range attack. Unless your construct starts the fight fairly close to the other guy, it may be vaporized before it can get in his face. Anything with a massive damage output and 3/4 or full BAB that doesn't depend on fancy or special attacks. Another shaper. If two shapers decide to let their constructs duke it out, then you have a Pokemon arena duel, and it will come down to who makes the best picks. If both shapers are in the fight then odds are each can simply melt the other's construct (never a good idea to come at a shaper with anything made of ectoplasm unless you were hoping for a shimmering puddle of goo).
Sagetim 09-12-07, 02:04 AM	I'd suggest getting the boost construct feat. Never got to use a psion in game, so I'm not sure if it's a great feat....but it certainly seems useful. At least to me. Anyone notice that they also obliterated the constructor PRC? Instead of having a guy that can summon (literally) a very unique army, we get stuck with the ecotopic adept. It's like getting stuck with the wizard who has 11 int at level 10. He's not completely useless, but damn well near pointless. comparisons: The constructor could: manifest astral construct and get a bunch of lower level ones. The ecotopic adept gets the ability to miraculously control more than one astral construct at once. His mental prowess is so impressive that he can somehow manage this feat...meanwhile the party wizard has summoned five celestial dogs just for the hell of it and has started a dog circus. The Ecotopic adept requires feats to add abilities to his astral constructs, and cannot mix and match any of the feat based abilities with other feat based abilities. The constructor got a list that expanded into class E abilities. They could mix and match as many as they damn well pleased. Some of them were even pretty scary (being able to shoot a spike volley as a class A ability? hello reusable area of effect for 1 pp.....) The Constructor also had a list of feats that allowed them to do a large number of things with astral constructs, like automatically summoning lower level astral constructs when manifesting a higher level AC power. The Ecotopic adept can meanwhile...well, they don't have a damn thing they can do that comes close to topping that.
Deekin 09-12-07, 02:17 AM	I'd suggest getting the boost construct feat. Never got to use a psion in game, so I'm not sure if it's a great feat....but it certainly seems useful. At least to me. Anyone notice that they also obliterated the constructor PRC? Instead of having a guy that can summon (literally) a very unique army, we get stuck with the ecotopic adept. It's like getting stuck with the wizard who has 11 int at level 10. He's not completely useless, but damn well near pointless. comparisons: The constructor could: manifest astral construct and get a bunch of lower level ones. The ecotopic adept gets the ability to miraculously control more than one astral construct at once. His mental prowess is so impressive that he can somehow manage this feat...meanwhile the party wizard has summoned five celestial dogs just for the hell of it and has started a dog circus. The Ecotopic adept requires feats to add abilities to his astral constructs, and cannot mix and match any of the feat based abilities with other feat based abilities. The constructor got a list that expanded into class E abilities. They could mix and match as many as they damn well pleased. Some of them were even pretty scary (being able to shoot a spike volley as a class A ability? hello reusable area of effect for 1 pp.....) The Constructor also had a list of feats that allowed them to do a large number of things with astral constructs, like automatically summoning lower level astral constructs when manifesting a higher level AC power. The Ecotopic adept can meanwhile...well, they don't have a damn thing they can do that comes close to topping that. The Constructor is still around (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b).
deathbane 09-12-07, 09:05 AM	Thanks for the constructor link.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 12:17 PM	The Constructor is still around (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b). thank you deekin...it nearly brings tears to my eyes that such a beautiful prc has been updated.
Tempest Stormwind 09-12-07, 12:22 PM	thank you deekin...it nearly brings tears to my eyes that such a beautiful prc has been updated. My one, and only, complaint with it is that Utility Construct isn't anywhere near nice enough for a 7th level PrC ability. It's freakin' Unseen Servant + Mount. We changed that in our game, to a redux of 3e's Ectomanipulation (just as you can trade down 1 C to get 2 Bs, and 1 B to get 2 As, with Ectomanipulation you can go the other way: 2 As for 1 B, 2 Bs for 1 C). I haven't hit that level yet but we don't foresee any serious problems.
Sagetim 09-12-07, 01:26 PM	well, with the new prc, you would have 4 menu a abilities on a level 1 construct at level 8 in the prc (level 14) you could then 'trade up' 2 level a's for a level b, two more level a's for a level b, then two level b's for a level C. hmmm...menu C abilities on a 1pp level 1 astral construct. or 7 pp for 4 level 1's with menu C abilities. all in one round.