Not having a problem with Soulknife [Archive] - Wizards Community

Not having a problem with Soulknife [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HK-47
05-02-07, 10:12 AM Alright, so I see all these fixes for the soulknife on the boards and I've never played one. So, I took the logical step for seeing what all the fuss was and played one. In the campaign he's in, which has several players and three GMs running different adventures, he's easily one of the top fighters and extremely versatile to boot. He can sneak with the rogues, he hits like a ram, and has yet to come even close to dying when the rest of the party is dropping like flies.

Honestly, I don't see what the need for all these fixes. It doesn't need a fighter group BAB, it starts with weapon focus: Mind Blade. Assuming you've got 16 STR at level 1, you're better than a fighter, have the same hit dice and a ton more skills. We don't get bonus feats like fighters, true. But, soulknives aren't fighters they're hybrids.

Maybe its the feats you guys are picking or something. So far, I've taken Psionic Weapon, Improved Initiative, and Dodge for feats. Nothing says "hello" like going on initiative 28, charging a guy, using Psionic Weapon AND Psychic Strike to blow the big bad clear into next month. Having a max damage of 30 at 5th level is pretty darn good in my book.

I've got ideas about taking him into different directions, such as multi-classing into Psion making him a sneak/tank/power slinger, rogue to add to his already massive damage pool, or even fighter to make him a more versatile tank. I may just keep him as a soulknife for a while longer.

Sure, Soul Knives are as roguish as rogues or as beefy as fighters. That's not their purpose, they are utility character capable of sneaking in like a rogue and kicking butt like a fighter. The soulknife's unique set of skills and abilities has made him the go-to guy in the campaign.

So, to all you soulknife haters out there, explain to me why my beloved soul knife sucks.
SlanderPanic
05-02-07, 12:15 PM Soulknife is a solid class, in my opinion and in my experience. One of the reasons people consider soulknives overpowered here, however, is the requirement of a move action to recharge a psychic strike. Soulknives can dish out massive damage on their first successful attack of a combat, but, afterwards, are stuck dealing fighter-level damage until they get a chance to recharge.

Another frustrating aspect of soulknives seems to be in the limited number of options for mind blade enhancements and their inability to bypass DR/adamatine and DR/silver. There have been various solutions kicked around, some official, some not so much.

Smart feat, equipment, and prestige class choices can help with all of these issues.
Coridan
05-02-07, 01:02 PM With Mind Empowerment and Mind Strike Swift is it really that big an issue?
SlanderPanic
05-02-07, 02:58 PM Keep in mind that those two feats didn't exist pre-Complete Psionic. That book expanded the options for soulknives tremendously, alleviating some of the problems people had with the class.

I, personally, find Mind Cleave to be a very useful feat. If the dice roll in my favor, my current soulknife can take down an enemy on the first hit, mind cleave the next, and use his third attack to either finish up that enemy or throw his mind blade at a distant opponent.

War Mind is a good class for soulknives, especially if your DM allows Untapped Potential's Mind Blade Kensai feat or my Practiced Bladewielder feat. You get improved BAB, a few powers, and some really nice special abilities that give you a touch of the psychic warrior's inflatability.

For a fun combo, try a soulknife 9/War Mind 5 with Mind Cleave. Expansion + bladewind + sweeping strike with a psychic strike-charged bastard sword mind blade and an animated shield = pain. War Minds are fun to play, on top of that: A disciplined warrior with secret techniques, combined with the natural violence and showboatiness of a soulknife, makes for interesting roleplaying.
InkBlot
05-02-07, 03:22 PM Having a max damage of 30 at 5th level is pretty darn good in my book.
Max? Are you sure you don't mean average? I have a 3rd level gnome warblade who deals 2d6+22 damage (avg. 29, max. 34) with his lance on a mounted charge, and he only has a strength of 10.

The only problem with the soulknife, as far as I'm concerned, is that it isn't specialized enough. Why would you play a class that's almost as sneaky as a rogue and almost as strong as a fighter, in a party that already has either one? D&D is designed to reward characters which fill certain niches within a party - the tank, the skillmonkey, the arcane caster, the healer - but the soulknife doesn't fit into any of those niches.

Like the monk and the bard, the best use of the soulknife is as a 5th party member. He can't tank as good as a fighter, but he can help the fighter tank. He can't sneak as well as the rogue, but he can sneak well enough if the rogue is busy.
Cala, Legend Reborn
05-02-07, 04:13 PM I've played an SRD soulknife/illumine soul in a mid-high level campaign where it was easily outperforming the other characters (a paladin, monk with Vow of Poverty, and a samurai/kensai) by using twin mind blades with KttS. Let's just make it clear, that I have nothing against the printed soulknife.

But it's just in that hazy "fifth wheel" ground, like the Mystic Theurge, and it needs some defined pullings in one or two directions to make it really solid, as opposed to just playable.
PhaedrusXY
05-02-07, 05:52 PM What are the other characters in your party? How optimized are they? And how experienced are their players?

Max damage of 30 at 5th level is not anywhere near good in my book. A 5th level wizard can do max damage of 30 with a Fireball, to an area, without optimizing at all. A 5th level mounted charger could do many times this amount of damage.
InkBlot
05-02-07, 09:09 PM Let's see...

5th level human fighter, improved initative, mounted combat, spirited charge, weapon focus (lance), weapon specialization (lance), power attack, 18 str*, +1 lance. She power attacks for 1 to componsate for her BAB advantage over the soulknife, and thus deals 3d8 + 16 damage on a mounted charge. Her max damage is 40, and her average 29.

*With the "4d6 drop the lowest" method recommended in the PHB, I've always been able to get at least one roll of a 17 or 18. The 4th level bonus ability point bumps this to at least 18.
HK-47
05-03-07, 08:20 AM I understand the a 5th level wizard is going to do more damage than me seven days a week. I'm not arguing that.

With the fighter mounted charge thing. Its useless when your in an area where you don't have access to a mount. If you're in a building, cave, or on a boat and your a mounted fighter, you're outta luck and foot. I'd rather have my versatility.

Sure I can't do as much damage in that one scenario, but I can consistently do that much damage no matter the environment. I'd rather have my lower max damage that I can deal out all the time than a really high one that is useful only in places where I've got space for a mount and only when charging.

I agree that it has no clear defined roll and I don't see a problem with that. Its good to have characters capable of fulfilling multiple things. I've never understood the case against the "fifth" party member. Its good to have a character capable of filling different roles when needed.

As for the experience of the players, it ranges from rookies to vets. I don't know how optimized everyone is (we've got about 18 players and 3 GMs running different adventures each week building around a main plot). Some load their character to the teeth and some don't. We've got a good balance of everything but clerics at this point (because we had two die back to back and they rerolled as different classes).
sonofdrizzt
05-03-07, 09:12 AM Dude, Soul Knives ROCK!!! Mine has taken down 2 dragons, and a horde of berserking orcs, barely before my buddies can even ready themselves. He moves so fast, mentaly and phisicly that not even that cavalier in my party can keep up. These guys just don't get a good thing.
Bacris
05-03-07, 09:44 AM I've played an SRD soulknife/illumine soul in a mid-high level campaign where it was easily outperforming the other characters (a paladin, monk with Vow of Poverty, and a samurai/kensai) by using twin mind blades with KttS. Let's just make it clear, that I have nothing against the printed soulknife.

But it's just in that hazy "fifth wheel" ground, like the Mystic Theurge, and it needs some defined pullings in one or two directions to make it really solid, as opposed to just playable.

Nothing against your soulknife, but that party is hardly an optimized group ;)
InkBlot
05-03-07, 01:28 PM With the fighter mounted charge thing. Its useless when your in an area where you don't have access to a mount. If you're in a building, cave, or on a boat and your a mounted fighter, you're outta luck and foot. I'd rather have my versatility.

First of all, a trained horse will follow it's master anywhere a large (long) creature will fit. Second, a gnome or halfling on a riding dog can fit in a lot of places. Riding dogs can go more places than a horse and get free trip attemps. A small lance isn't going to disadvantage you much, since you can leverage your small character's +1 size bonus to hit into another +6 damage with Power Attack and Spirited Charge.

My gnomish warblade did actually bring his riding dog into a building with him. Scared the beejeesus out of that corrupt politician.

And everybody has situations when they can't use all their tricks. Soulknives can't use psychic strike or knife to the soul against mindless creatures (constructs, oozes, undead, vermin). Rogues can't sneak attack creatures without discernable anatomies, or when they can't hide, fient, or flank. A charging fighter needs 10 or more feet to build up momentum.

He moves so fast, mentaly and phisicly that not even that cavalier in my party can keep up. These guys just don't get a good thing.
Faster than a cavalier? A cavalier as in he's riding a horse? You're saying your soulknife is faster than a horse?

Speed Of Thought only gives you a +10 insight bonus to your speed. A horse has a speed of 60. If you're faster than the horse then it's not because of your soulknife levels.
Cala, Legend Reborn
05-03-07, 06:50 PM Nothing against your soulknife, but that party is hardly an optimized group ;)
Yeah, I know. The paladin... was level 18. *cringe* That's as un-optimised as you can get. The VoP monk wasn't as bad, with 50-something AC to hold off attackers while I went in around the sides and stat-damaged things to oblivion. Warforged samurai/kensai? Our party punching bag.

Our group wasn't aware of the concept of optimisation then, and I was basically the only player getting the most out of my character (I'm naturally inclined towards power).
HK-47
05-04-07, 09:18 AM Speed of thought + Haste or skate keeps up with a horse but that's all I can think of.

Personally, I think the mounted charger is limited use one trick pony. I just think that psychic strike is useful in more scenarios. Yes, psychic strike can't be used against mindless creatures, but that's far less limiting than charging. You charge in, and if you want to do comparable damage, you have clear another path. All I have to do is spend a move action to power back up.

Anyways, no one has yet to tell me why the soulknife is a bad class. (remember, the original question) Its got its weaknesses and limitations, just like every other class. That doesn't mean it needs fixes. Its a class designed to be somewhere between a fighter and a rogue with some interesting tricks and from what I've seen in five levels of playing it, it fills its role pretty well.
InkBlot
05-04-07, 01:34 PM Anyways, no one has yet to tell me why the soulknife is a bad class.

Yes we have. Other classes can fill every role the soulknife can, except better. For example, lets look at a typical 5th level human rogue:

Taking the feats Combat Expertise, Improved Fient, Skill Focus (Bluff), and with a 16 Str. When making a sneak attack with a +1 morningstar wielded in two hands, this rogue has a max damage of 31.

She can use a move action to fient to get her sneak attack damage, like your soulknife can use a move action to charge psychic strike. She can also use sneak attack by flanking, or simply getting a high initiative.

This basic rogue, using just material out of the PHB, easily does as much damage as your soulknife. She also has twice as many skill points, more class skills, trapfinding, and evasion.

The rogue is just as good a fighter as the soulknife, and twice the skillmonkey.

edit: Just to clarify, I think the soulknife is playable as is. It's very weak, but playable. It's especialy playable in as a 5th party member, where it's weaknesses will be compensated for by other party members.

Since most of my characters have a motivation such as "become as strong as possible so I can defeat the BBEG" or "become as powerful as possible so I can protect the innocent," none of my characters would train as soulknives. They're smart enough to see that being able to make a magic sword but not much else is kind of weak. They would go train with the wizard who can make magic swords and turn people into frogs. Or they would just buy a magic sword, then go train with the fighter who can trip, disarm, and dismember his foe in one swift strike and use the momentum from that swing to do the same to the next foe.

But when I DMed I saw players playing soulknives and being satisfied with their characters - despite never quite measuring up to the challenges that the other players were hacking apart with ease.

edit edit: That's another problem with soulknives - they're unfair to the DM. If one character can't keep up, then the DM has to make encounters easier so that player doesn't feel cheated. But then the game is too easy, and everybody gets bored.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HK-47 05-02-07, 10:12 AM	Alright, so I see all these fixes for the soulknife on the boards and I've never played one. So, I took the logical step for seeing what all the fuss was and played one. In the campaign he's in, which has several players and three GMs running different adventures, he's easily one of the top fighters and extremely versatile to boot. He can sneak with the rogues, he hits like a ram, and has yet to come even close to dying when the rest of the party is dropping like flies. Honestly, I don't see what the need for all these fixes. It doesn't need a fighter group BAB, it starts with weapon focus: Mind Blade. Assuming you've got 16 STR at level 1, you're better than a fighter, have the same hit dice and a ton more skills. We don't get bonus feats like fighters, true. But, soulknives aren't fighters they're hybrids. Maybe its the feats you guys are picking or something. So far, I've taken Psionic Weapon, Improved Initiative, and Dodge for feats. Nothing says "hello" like going on initiative 28, charging a guy, using Psionic Weapon AND Psychic Strike to blow the big bad clear into next month. Having a max damage of 30 at 5th level is pretty darn good in my book. I've got ideas about taking him into different directions, such as multi-classing into Psion making him a sneak/tank/power slinger, rogue to add to his already massive damage pool, or even fighter to make him a more versatile tank. I may just keep him as a soulknife for a while longer. Sure, Soul Knives are as roguish as rogues or as beefy as fighters. That's not their purpose, they are utility character capable of sneaking in like a rogue and kicking butt like a fighter. The soulknife's unique set of skills and abilities has made him the go-to guy in the campaign. So, to all you soulknife haters out there, explain to me why my beloved soul knife sucks.
SlanderPanic 05-02-07, 12:15 PM	Soulknife is a solid class, in my opinion and in my experience. One of the reasons people consider soulknives overpowered here, however, is the requirement of a move action to recharge a psychic strike. Soulknives can dish out massive damage on their first successful attack of a combat, but, afterwards, are stuck dealing fighter-level damage until they get a chance to recharge. Another frustrating aspect of soulknives seems to be in the limited number of options for mind blade enhancements and their inability to bypass DR/adamatine and DR/silver. There have been various solutions kicked around, some official, some not so much. Smart feat, equipment, and prestige class choices can help with all of these issues.
Coridan 05-02-07, 01:02 PM	With Mind Empowerment and Mind Strike Swift is it really that big an issue?
SlanderPanic 05-02-07, 02:58 PM	Keep in mind that those two feats didn't exist pre-Complete Psionic. That book expanded the options for soulknives tremendously, alleviating some of the problems people had with the class. I, personally, find Mind Cleave to be a very useful feat. If the dice roll in my favor, my current soulknife can take down an enemy on the first hit, mind cleave the next, and use his third attack to either finish up that enemy or throw his mind blade at a distant opponent. War Mind is a good class for soulknives, especially if your DM allows Untapped Potential's Mind Blade Kensai feat or my Practiced Bladewielder feat. You get improved BAB, a few powers, and some really nice special abilities that give you a touch of the psychic warrior's inflatability. For a fun combo, try a soulknife 9/War Mind 5 with Mind Cleave. Expansion + bladewind + sweeping strike with a psychic strike-charged bastard sword mind blade and an animated shield = pain. War Minds are fun to play, on top of that: A disciplined warrior with secret techniques, combined with the natural violence and showboatiness of a soulknife, makes for interesting roleplaying.
InkBlot 05-02-07, 03:22 PM	Having a max damage of 30 at 5th level is pretty darn good in my book. Max? Are you sure you don't mean average? I have a 3rd level gnome warblade who deals 2d6+22 damage (avg. 29, max. 34) with his lance on a mounted charge, and he only has a strength of 10. The only problem with the soulknife, as far as I'm concerned, is that it isn't specialized enough. Why would you play a class that's almost as sneaky as a rogue and almost as strong as a fighter, in a party that already has either one? D&D is designed to reward characters which fill certain niches within a party - the tank, the skillmonkey, the arcane caster, the healer - but the soulknife doesn't fit into any of those niches. Like the monk and the bard, the best use of the soulknife is as a 5th party member. He can't tank as good as a fighter, but he can help the fighter tank. He can't sneak as well as the rogue, but he can sneak well enough if the rogue is busy.
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-02-07, 04:13 PM	I've played an SRD soulknife/illumine soul in a mid-high level campaign where it was easily outperforming the other characters (a paladin, monk with Vow of Poverty, and a samurai/kensai) by using twin mind blades with KttS. Let's just make it clear, that I have nothing against the printed soulknife. But it's just in that hazy "fifth wheel" ground, like the Mystic Theurge, and it needs some defined pullings in one or two directions to make it really solid, as opposed to just playable.
PhaedrusXY 05-02-07, 05:52 PM	What are the other characters in your party? How optimized are they? And how experienced are their players? Max damage of 30 at 5th level is not anywhere near good in my book. A 5th level wizard can do max damage of 30 with a Fireball, to an area, without optimizing at all. A 5th level mounted charger could do many times this amount of damage.
InkBlot 05-02-07, 09:09 PM	Let's see... 5th level human fighter, improved initative, mounted combat, spirited charge, weapon focus (lance), weapon specialization (lance), power attack, 18 str, +1 lance. She power attacks for 1 to componsate for her BAB advantage over the soulknife, and thus deals 3d8 + 16 damage on a mounted charge. Her max damage is 40, and her average 29. With the "4d6 drop the lowest" method recommended in the PHB, I've always been able to get at least one roll of a 17 or 18. The 4th level bonus ability point bumps this to at least 18.
HK-47 05-03-07, 08:20 AM	I understand the a 5th level wizard is going to do more damage than me seven days a week. I'm not arguing that. With the fighter mounted charge thing. Its useless when your in an area where you don't have access to a mount. If you're in a building, cave, or on a boat and your a mounted fighter, you're outta luck and foot. I'd rather have my versatility. Sure I can't do as much damage in that one scenario, but I can consistently do that much damage no matter the environment. I'd rather have my lower max damage that I can deal out all the time than a really high one that is useful only in places where I've got space for a mount and only when charging. I agree that it has no clear defined roll and I don't see a problem with that. Its good to have characters capable of fulfilling multiple things. I've never understood the case against the "fifth" party member. Its good to have a character capable of filling different roles when needed. As for the experience of the players, it ranges from rookies to vets. I don't know how optimized everyone is (we've got about 18 players and 3 GMs running different adventures each week building around a main plot). Some load their character to the teeth and some don't. We've got a good balance of everything but clerics at this point (because we had two die back to back and they rerolled as different classes).
sonofdrizzt 05-03-07, 09:12 AM	Dude, Soul Knives ROCK!!! Mine has taken down 2 dragons, and a horde of berserking orcs, barely before my buddies can even ready themselves. He moves so fast, mentaly and phisicly that not even that cavalier in my party can keep up. These guys just don't get a good thing.
Bacris 05-03-07, 09:44 AM	I've played an SRD soulknife/illumine soul in a mid-high level campaign where it was easily outperforming the other characters (a paladin, monk with Vow of Poverty, and a samurai/kensai) by using twin mind blades with KttS. Let's just make it clear, that I have nothing against the printed soulknife. But it's just in that hazy "fifth wheel" ground, like the Mystic Theurge, and it needs some defined pullings in one or two directions to make it really solid, as opposed to just playable. Nothing against your soulknife, but that party is hardly an optimized group ;)
InkBlot 05-03-07, 01:28 PM	With the fighter mounted charge thing. Its useless when your in an area where you don't have access to a mount. If you're in a building, cave, or on a boat and your a mounted fighter, you're outta luck and foot. I'd rather have my versatility. First of all, a trained horse will follow it's master anywhere a large (long) creature will fit. Second, a gnome or halfling on a riding dog can fit in a lot of places. Riding dogs can go more places than a horse and get free trip attemps. A small lance isn't going to disadvantage you much, since you can leverage your small character's +1 size bonus to hit into another +6 damage with Power Attack and Spirited Charge. My gnomish warblade did actually bring his riding dog into a building with him. Scared the beejeesus out of that corrupt politician. And everybody has situations when they can't use all their tricks. Soulknives can't use psychic strike or knife to the soul against mindless creatures (constructs, oozes, undead, vermin). Rogues can't sneak attack creatures without discernable anatomies, or when they can't hide, fient, or flank. A charging fighter needs 10 or more feet to build up momentum. He moves so fast, mentaly and phisicly that not even that cavalier in my party can keep up. These guys just don't get a good thing. Faster than a cavalier? A cavalier as in he's riding a horse? You're saying your soulknife is faster than a horse? Speed Of Thought only gives you a +10 insight bonus to your speed. A horse has a speed of 60. If you're faster than the horse then it's not because of your soulknife levels.
Cala, Legend Reborn 05-03-07, 06:50 PM	Nothing against your soulknife, but that party is hardly an optimized group ;) Yeah, I know. The paladin... was level 18. cringe That's as un-optimised as you can get. The VoP monk wasn't as bad, with 50-something AC to hold off attackers while I went in around the sides and stat-damaged things to oblivion. Warforged samurai/kensai? Our party punching bag. Our group wasn't aware of the concept of optimisation then, and I was basically the only player getting the most out of my character (I'm naturally inclined towards power).
HK-47 05-04-07, 09:18 AM	Speed of thought + Haste or skate keeps up with a horse but that's all I can think of. Personally, I think the mounted charger is limited use one trick pony. I just think that psychic strike is useful in more scenarios. Yes, psychic strike can't be used against mindless creatures, but that's far less limiting than charging. You charge in, and if you want to do comparable damage, you have clear another path. All I have to do is spend a move action to power back up. Anyways, no one has yet to tell me why the soulknife is a bad class. (remember, the original question) Its got its weaknesses and limitations, just like every other class. That doesn't mean it needs fixes. Its a class designed to be somewhere between a fighter and a rogue with some interesting tricks and from what I've seen in five levels of playing it, it fills its role pretty well.
InkBlot 05-04-07, 01:34 PM	Anyways, no one has yet to tell me why the soulknife is a bad class. Yes we have. Other classes can fill every role the soulknife can, except better. For example, lets look at a typical 5th level human rogue: Taking the feats Combat Expertise, Improved Fient, Skill Focus (Bluff), and with a 16 Str. When making a sneak attack with a +1 morningstar wielded in two hands, this rogue has a max damage of 31. She can use a move action to fient to get her sneak attack damage, like your soulknife can use a move action to charge psychic strike. She can also use sneak attack by flanking, or simply getting a high initiative. This basic rogue, using just material out of the PHB, easily does as much damage as your soulknife. She also has twice as many skill points, more class skills, trapfinding, and evasion. The rogue is just as good a fighter as the soulknife, and twice the skillmonkey. edit: Just to clarify, I think the soulknife is playable as is. It's very weak, but playable. It's especialy playable in as a 5th party member, where it's weaknesses will be compensated for by other party members. Since most of my characters have a motivation such as "become as strong as possible so I can defeat the BBEG" or "become as powerful as possible so I can protect the innocent," none of my characters would train as soulknives. They're smart enough to see that being able to make a magic sword but not much else is kind of weak. They would go train with the wizard who can make magic swords and turn people into frogs. Or they would just buy a magic sword, then go train with the fighter who can trip, disarm, and dismember his foe in one swift strike and use the momentum from that swing to do the same to the next foe. But when I DMed I saw players playing soulknives and being satisfied with their characters - despite never quite measuring up to the challenges that the other players were hacking apart with ease. edit edit: That's another problem with soulknives - they're unfair to the DM. If one character can't keep up, then the DM has to make encounters easier so that player doesn't feel cheated. But then the game is too easy, and everybody gets bored.