Notes from a Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Notes from a Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadrach_Storm
07-23-07, 12:13 AM Notes from a Gish

I've been playing a Gish in a campaign for about two years now. Since the campaign is ending and the character I have been running for the whole thing is about to be retired, I thought I would post these notes related to my experience running a Gish. The character is ending at Monk 3/ Psion (Kineticist) 5/ Astral Zealot 8/ Lucid Cenobite 1 (from Mindscapes). The notes concern the usefulness I have found of certain powers, reflections on some of the Complete Psionic gimps, and one variation on a power. I also start with a brief discussion on the usefullness of Psicrystals.

Psicrystals -
I have not regretted spending a feat on Psicrystal Affinity, even though my psicrystal did not gain any feats of its own as it gained hit dice. While I am always up for more power , it didn't really need the boost. I did not at any time wish it was a familiar instead. For one feat, I gained alertness, +2 initiative (which was the option I selected) that I tacked on to my already Improved Initiative, a fairly effective universal communicator, and most importantly a method of keeping silently in contact with whoever was scouting ahead (usually the rogue). This contact sometimes helped keep the scout alive, as eventually the party learned that if I lose contact with the crystal or the scout stops responding to the crystal, we have a problem and should react now, not 6 seconds from now, but right now. If I relied on the crystal to deliver touch attacks, I might have run into a problem, but since I never had any touch attacks, I avoided any BAB issues. As a carried item, the crystal avoided most damage, and if it were destroyed, I could just reform it anyways. Morevover, since I valued it as much as some party members, I was careful not to let it get destroyed.

Powers-
Inertial Armor - essential; used every day fully augmented; much of my AC came from this power

Force Screen - very useful, especially at low levels; I never augmented it, though; I couldn't spare the points

Empty Mind- used a few times; very expensive to augment; didn't seem to come in that handy

Precognition, Offensive- almost never used; at low levels, I couldn't spare the action; at high levels I couldn't spare the points; I still feel like it could come in handy some day
Vigor- used maybe 10 times; most of those before 5th level; used only a few times after that, but it saved my butt each of those time, and contingency/vigor is a nice cushion

Astral Construct - not that useful at low levels (a full round to cast and short durations made it unworthwhile); very powerful at higher levels; if my 7-9th lvl construct grappled an enemy, that enemy was usually toast. I was initially annoyed at the Complete Psionic--only one construct at a time--gimp, and at low/medium levels it seems completely unnecessary. At high levels, though, having multiple large or huge constructs made some party members obsolete.

Claws of the Beast - I stopped using martial arts once I acquired this power; Claws + improved natural attack + high strength caused a lot of damage.

Energy Missile - As a whole, I found direct damage powers to not be worth the points I had to spend on them. However, in situations where I had to pump out some guaranteed damage, I used them. Against closely packed enemies with no energy resistance or SR, this worked well--meaning many times it was not that effective and some missiles were usually wasted. I originally was annoyed at the Complete Psionic's save gimp, but without the gimp it has a very high DC and is out of whack with virtually all other powers and spells, so I'm ok with it now. I don't see the need for any other gimps to it. Our party's warmage's fireballs were usually more effective and cheaper.

Biofeedback - The most useless power I never used. I only took it so that I could enter the Lucid Cenobite prestige class.

Swarm of Crystals - I took this power for use against Drow and other things with SR. I used it somewhat frequently at low to medium levels, but as I said with Energy Missile, it was just too expensive to use much. The Complete Psionic's DR gimp is totally unnecessary. The power was only good against things with SR that were right in front of me. With the gimp, it would be only good against the above creatures that also didn't have DR.

Dispel Psionics/Magic - We didn't dispel much, partially because the power description was so confusing. The fact that this power peaks in strength at 10th level manifester is also odd.

Touchsight - Used a few times to deal with invisibility and illusions. Obviously, very situational--when you need it, you really need it; the rest of the time it just sits there.

Telekinetic Thrust - I only used it once or twice. It seems like I should have used it more, but you need a lot of magic missile weapons at higher levels for it to work then.

Time Hop - This has saved several characters and came in very handy. The mage is grappled? Time Hop. The mage is about to die? Time hop. The paladin is dead, but is too far away to revivify in time? Time Hop.

Solicit Psicrystal - Works well with Energy Current.

Metamorphosis - Um, broken. As a Mountain Troll wearing all my gear (for only 7 power points), I was a trifle excessive. The power got deservedly banned from the campaign after a level.

Inertial Barrier - An excellent power. One reason why Biofeedback is pathetic. I used it often before going into the dungeon. Not great against a 60 point critical hit, but good against three 20 point attacks.

Energy Adaptation - An excellent power. I used it often before going into the dungeon.

Dimension Door - Handy for getting out of a jam. If I was about to drop, I would sometimes teleport away, gear up, and return ready for more.

Intellect Fortress - One of the few powers that helped the rest of the party. Very handy, especially against multiple casters. Often a few characters were out of range of the protection, though.

Freedom of Movement - Essential. I used it very often before going into the dungeon.

Celestial Conduit (variant)- It seems stupid that both the positive and negative energy versions of this power do damage to living creatures. Also, we had a houserule that allows all positive energy attacks to heal living creatures, so I altered the power so that it heals 1d6+2/power point to living creatures, damages undead as written, and has no effect on constructs. We were short on clerics for a while, plus a long bolt of healing was cool. However, living enemies in the bolt are also healed.

Energy Current - Only really good with Solicit Psicrystal. Both together made doing direct damage worthwhile.

Anticipatory Strike - I only used it to save party members. Otherwise it was too expensive. The mage is about to die--Anticipatory Strike, Time Hop.

Temporal Acceleration - When augmented and Extended, it is very powerful, problematically powerful as a 6th level power. Acceleration, Astral Construct, Astral Construct + attack + constrict in one round is brutal. In a battle against three mind flayers, I did that and then promptly felt bad, as the two minions instantly died and the party felt unnecessary. The DM was unamused, so the 3rd mind flayer, the leader, showed us just how broken Greater Metamorphosis is. A really big dragon with Inertial Armor is game over. Greater Metamorphosis also got banned along with Metamorphosis at that time.
Phase
07-23-07, 02:40 AM Some good stuff here, im currently making a gish character, but meta is not banned...

Claws of the Beast - I stopped using martial arts once I acquired this power; Claws + improved natural attack + high strength caused a lot of damage.

I never really understood this power that much, you can only make 2 attacks, and the average damage is really only going to be a few more points then a greatsword... and thats untill he gets to a BAB of 11. Still unsure if its worthy or not..
Jhaelen
07-23-07, 04:19 AM Thanks for sharing this!

Nothing beats in-game experience when judging the effectiveness / usefulness of powers. I guess, about 95% of all the discussions how XYZ is broken / worthless wouldn't even start if more people actually tested them in play.

Your account also makes me glad I banned metamorphosis right away. :)
CrimsonDeath
07-23-07, 06:03 AM No schism? Was it banned too, or did you simply decide not to use an Expanded Knowledge on it?
Grimmsfeld
07-23-07, 06:07 AM Dispel Psionics/Magic - We didn't dispel much, partially because the power description was so confusing. The fact that this power peaks in strength at 10th level manifester is also odd....huh? Caps at 10th? Did you read the augment? Caps at +20 augmented at manifester level 10th...or is that why you say it's odd? I couldn't imagine going without it, regardless of how many times you have to reread the description to get it right...
hovnarr
07-23-07, 07:35 AM Very VERY good post. Posts like these is what the board needs. People sharing their experiences. I was surprised by (and learned from) two things:

1) The relative un-usefulness of Dispel Psionics and Touchsight: I suppose this depends a lot on your DM. Those two and Time Hop are my personal "must-haves" at levels 5-6 (my fourth choice is typically Energy Wall). I might go for power stones of touchsight in the future, and grab it or True Seeing later on instead.

2) The fact that you found Freedom of Movement that useful: Again, probably depends on your DM. Since psions can manifest/dispel and move (dimension door) as a purely mental action, I usually don't bother with this one. But I suppose that if you want to keep dishing out weapon attacks rather than powers, it's probably very useful.

I also have a comment:

Metamorphosis - Um, broken. As a Mountain Troll wearing all my gear (for only 7 power points), I was a trifle excessive. The power got deservedly banned from the campaign after a level.
[...]
The DM was unamused, so the 3rd mind flayer, the leader, showed us just how broken Greater Metamorphosis is. A really big dragon with Inertial Armor is game over. Greater Metamorphosis also got banned along with Metamorphosis at that time.

Lesson learned? If you use a potentially broken rules item to its fullest effect, you will either break the game or the DM will break you in response using that same trick. So, if you want to keep using cool powers like Metamorphosis, go easy. Believe me, I know first hand how broken morph effects can be, and I nerf them in an appropriate way in my own campaigns. But I have never had problems with them as a player once I learned to NOT choose the spectacular forms like firebreathing 12-headed hydra, and choose defensive forms that support other party members and let them shine instead.

Basically, morph effects, if allowed by the DM initially, is an in-blanco check for immense power. But that doesn't change the fact that the DM is still God Almighty.
RobbyPants
07-23-07, 10:15 AM I have to agree that this is a nice post. Obviously, each game is different, but even still, in-game experience is very useful. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. ;)

No schism? Was it banned too, or did you simply decide not to use an Expanded Knowledge on it?
True. This could have made Vigor a much more viable choice at later levels. That, and Share Pain. You can have your psicrystal take half of your damage, after giving you and your psicryistal temporary HP through Vigor and Share Powers. It's a great psi-gish combo. With Share Powers, you get effectively 10 temporary HP per PP spent, and share pain lets your psicrystal take half of your damage. Using schism, you can quickly refil your temp HP if necessary at no expense of your usual actions.
Bacris
07-23-07, 10:26 AM Are you kidding about biofeedback?

My current Ardent uses it (took EK to get it, as he's a front-liner, so he has it as a 1 pp psywar power).

I use that power every combat - and in at least 5 combats, it has saved him from death and/or dying. The last combat, without that, he would have been dying and unconscious. Instead, he was at exactly 0 hit points and able heal himself.

My previous psywar also used it - it was one of the few powers he almost always activated, given his tiny power point pool.

Personally, I've found biofeedback to be perhaps one of my favorite powers as a melee / gish character. The fact that it's scalable DR and it cannot be bypassed is huge - unless you're facing casters. :) The power point / hit point benefit far exceeds vigor if you take more than 2 hits.
Deekin
07-23-07, 02:09 PM Some good stuff here, im currently making a gish character, but meta is not banned...

I never really understood this power that much, you can only make 2 attacks, and the average damage is really only going to be a few more points then a greatsword... and thats untill he gets to a BAB of 11. Still unsure if its worthy or not..

Except your claws will be doing 3d6 by that level, so it keeps up.
hovnarr
07-24-07, 11:11 AM Are you kidding about biofeedback?

Check what he wrote about Inertial barrier. I see this come up both ways in many posts here. Some posters prefer biofeedback and some inertial barrier. The simple conclusion I think must be that it's a level issue.

At mid level, IB is best. DR 5/- for 7 pp. The same would cost 10 pp with Biofeedback, and only last for one tenth of the time. Then again, you can get Biofeedback at level 1, and you can augment it to rival stoneskin later on.

The power point / hit point benefit far exceeds vigor if you take more than 2 hits.

Is this accurate? If you only spend 1 pp on either power, then yes. But how often would you use an unaugmented Vigor at mid level?

A 7 pp Vigor will avail you of 35 points of damage (be it a fireball, giant boulder or anything else). A 7 pp IB will do the same thing if you get hit at least 7 times with a weapon. I must confess I'm not used to playing gishes, but I'd basically try to avoid being hit 7 times in most cases. At least by the level when you can manifest IB.

Personally, I think I like Biofeedback more, because DR 2/- at level 1 for 1 pp is a lot more significant than DR 5/- at level 7 when you have better defensive options (speaking as a full manifester rather than gish here).
Bacris
07-24-07, 11:32 AM Vigor is always 5 hit points per power point.

After 3 hits, biofeedback at 1 power point is 6 hit points per power point :) And it just keeps getting better as you get attacked.
rilem
07-24-07, 11:52 AM But Vigor works vs. more stuff — pits, breath weapons, Stone Power maneuvers, etc.

So it's a judgement call here: you expect you'll be facing lots of swords/axes, Biofeedback is better. For varied encounters or a single, heavy-but-single-hitting beast, Vigor's probably superior.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadrach_Storm 07-23-07, 12:13 AM	Notes from a Gish I've been playing a Gish in a campaign for about two years now. Since the campaign is ending and the character I have been running for the whole thing is about to be retired, I thought I would post these notes related to my experience running a Gish. The character is ending at Monk 3/ Psion (Kineticist) 5/ Astral Zealot 8/ Lucid Cenobite 1 (from Mindscapes). The notes concern the usefulness I have found of certain powers, reflections on some of the Complete Psionic gimps, and one variation on a power. I also start with a brief discussion on the usefullness of Psicrystals. Psicrystals - I have not regretted spending a feat on Psicrystal Affinity, even though my psicrystal did not gain any feats of its own as it gained hit dice. While I am always up for more power , it didn't really need the boost. I did not at any time wish it was a familiar instead. For one feat, I gained alertness, +2 initiative (which was the option I selected) that I tacked on to my already Improved Initiative, a fairly effective universal communicator, and most importantly a method of keeping silently in contact with whoever was scouting ahead (usually the rogue). This contact sometimes helped keep the scout alive, as eventually the party learned that if I lose contact with the crystal or the scout stops responding to the crystal, we have a problem and should react now, not 6 seconds from now, but right now. If I relied on the crystal to deliver touch attacks, I might have run into a problem, but since I never had any touch attacks, I avoided any BAB issues. As a carried item, the crystal avoided most damage, and if it were destroyed, I could just reform it anyways. Morevover, since I valued it as much as some party members, I was careful not to let it get destroyed. Powers- Inertial Armor - essential; used every day fully augmented; much of my AC came from this power Force Screen - very useful, especially at low levels; I never augmented it, though; I couldn't spare the points Empty Mind- used a few times; very expensive to augment; didn't seem to come in that handy Precognition, Offensive- almost never used; at low levels, I couldn't spare the action; at high levels I couldn't spare the points; I still feel like it could come in handy some day Vigor- used maybe 10 times; most of those before 5th level; used only a few times after that, but it saved my butt each of those time, and contingency/vigor is a nice cushion Astral Construct - not that useful at low levels (a full round to cast and short durations made it unworthwhile); very powerful at higher levels; if my 7-9th lvl construct grappled an enemy, that enemy was usually toast. I was initially annoyed at the Complete Psionic--only one construct at a time--gimp, and at low/medium levels it seems completely unnecessary. At high levels, though, having multiple large or huge constructs made some party members obsolete. Claws of the Beast - I stopped using martial arts once I acquired this power; Claws + improved natural attack + high strength caused a lot of damage. Energy Missile - As a whole, I found direct damage powers to not be worth the points I had to spend on them. However, in situations where I had to pump out some guaranteed damage, I used them. Against closely packed enemies with no energy resistance or SR, this worked well--meaning many times it was not that effective and some missiles were usually wasted. I originally was annoyed at the Complete Psionic's save gimp, but without the gimp it has a very high DC and is out of whack with virtually all other powers and spells, so I'm ok with it now. I don't see the need for any other gimps to it. Our party's warmage's fireballs were usually more effective and cheaper. Biofeedback - The most useless power I never used. I only took it so that I could enter the Lucid Cenobite prestige class. Swarm of Crystals - I took this power for use against Drow and other things with SR. I used it somewhat frequently at low to medium levels, but as I said with Energy Missile, it was just too expensive to use much. The Complete Psionic's DR gimp is totally unnecessary. The power was only good against things with SR that were right in front of me. With the gimp, it would be only good against the above creatures that also didn't have DR. Dispel Psionics/Magic - We didn't dispel much, partially because the power description was so confusing. The fact that this power peaks in strength at 10th level manifester is also odd. Touchsight - Used a few times to deal with invisibility and illusions. Obviously, very situational--when you need it, you really need it; the rest of the time it just sits there. Telekinetic Thrust - I only used it once or twice. It seems like I should have used it more, but you need a lot of magic missile weapons at higher levels for it to work then. Time Hop - This has saved several characters and came in very handy. The mage is grappled? Time Hop. The mage is about to die? Time hop. The paladin is dead, but is too far away to revivify in time? Time Hop. Solicit Psicrystal - Works well with Energy Current. Metamorphosis - Um, broken. As a Mountain Troll wearing all my gear (for only 7 power points), I was a trifle excessive. The power got deservedly banned from the campaign after a level. Inertial Barrier - An excellent power. One reason why Biofeedback is pathetic. I used it often before going into the dungeon. Not great against a 60 point critical hit, but good against three 20 point attacks. Energy Adaptation - An excellent power. I used it often before going into the dungeon. Dimension Door - Handy for getting out of a jam. If I was about to drop, I would sometimes teleport away, gear up, and return ready for more. Intellect Fortress - One of the few powers that helped the rest of the party. Very handy, especially against multiple casters. Often a few characters were out of range of the protection, though. Freedom of Movement - Essential. I used it very often before going into the dungeon. Celestial Conduit (variant)- It seems stupid that both the positive and negative energy versions of this power do damage to living creatures. Also, we had a houserule that allows all positive energy attacks to heal living creatures, so I altered the power so that it heals 1d6+2/power point to living creatures, damages undead as written, and has no effect on constructs. We were short on clerics for a while, plus a long bolt of healing was cool. However, living enemies in the bolt are also healed. Energy Current - Only really good with Solicit Psicrystal. Both together made doing direct damage worthwhile. Anticipatory Strike - I only used it to save party members. Otherwise it was too expensive. The mage is about to die--Anticipatory Strike, Time Hop. Temporal Acceleration - When augmented and Extended, it is very powerful, problematically powerful as a 6th level power. Acceleration, Astral Construct, Astral Construct + attack + constrict in one round is brutal. In a battle against three mind flayers, I did that and then promptly felt bad, as the two minions instantly died and the party felt unnecessary. The DM was unamused, so the 3rd mind flayer, the leader, showed us just how broken Greater Metamorphosis is. A really big dragon with Inertial Armor is game over. Greater Metamorphosis also got banned along with Metamorphosis at that time.
Phase 07-23-07, 02:40 AM	Some good stuff here, im currently making a gish character, but meta is not banned... Claws of the Beast - I stopped using martial arts once I acquired this power; Claws + improved natural attack + high strength caused a lot of damage. I never really understood this power that much, you can only make 2 attacks, and the average damage is really only going to be a few more points then a greatsword... and thats untill he gets to a BAB of 11. Still unsure if its worthy or not..
Jhaelen 07-23-07, 04:19 AM	Thanks for sharing this! Nothing beats in-game experience when judging the effectiveness / usefulness of powers. I guess, about 95% of all the discussions how XYZ is broken / worthless wouldn't even start if more people actually tested them in play. Your account also makes me glad I banned metamorphosis right away. :)
CrimsonDeath 07-23-07, 06:03 AM	No schism? Was it banned too, or did you simply decide not to use an Expanded Knowledge on it?
Grimmsfeld 07-23-07, 06:07 AM	Dispel Psionics/Magic - We didn't dispel much, partially because the power description was so confusing. The fact that this power peaks in strength at 10th level manifester is also odd....huh? Caps at 10th? Did you read the augment? Caps at +20 augmented at manifester level 10th...or is that why you say it's odd? I couldn't imagine going without it, regardless of how many times you have to reread the description to get it right...
hovnarr 07-23-07, 07:35 AM	Very VERY good post. Posts like these is what the board needs. People sharing their experiences. I was surprised by (and learned from) two things: 1) The relative un-usefulness of Dispel Psionics and Touchsight: I suppose this depends a lot on your DM. Those two and Time Hop are my personal "must-haves" at levels 5-6 (my fourth choice is typically Energy Wall). I might go for power stones of touchsight in the future, and grab it or True Seeing later on instead. 2) The fact that you found Freedom of Movement that useful: Again, probably depends on your DM. Since psions can manifest/dispel and move (dimension door) as a purely mental action, I usually don't bother with this one. But I suppose that if you want to keep dishing out weapon attacks rather than powers, it's probably very useful. I also have a comment: Metamorphosis - Um, broken. As a Mountain Troll wearing all my gear (for only 7 power points), I was a trifle excessive. The power got deservedly banned from the campaign after a level. [...] The DM was unamused, so the 3rd mind flayer, the leader, showed us just how broken Greater Metamorphosis is. A really big dragon with Inertial Armor is game over. Greater Metamorphosis also got banned along with Metamorphosis at that time. Lesson learned? If you use a potentially broken rules item to its fullest effect, you will either break the game or the DM will break you in response using that same trick. So, if you want to keep using cool powers like Metamorphosis, go easy. Believe me, I know first hand how broken morph effects can be, and I nerf them in an appropriate way in my own campaigns. But I have never had problems with them as a player once I learned to NOT choose the spectacular forms like firebreathing 12-headed hydra, and choose defensive forms that support other party members and let them shine instead. Basically, morph effects, if allowed by the DM initially, is an in-blanco check for immense power. But that doesn't change the fact that the DM is still God Almighty.
RobbyPants 07-23-07, 10:15 AM	I have to agree that this is a nice post. Obviously, each game is different, but even still, in-game experience is very useful. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. ;) No schism? Was it banned too, or did you simply decide not to use an Expanded Knowledge on it? True. This could have made Vigor a much more viable choice at later levels. That, and Share Pain. You can have your psicrystal take half of your damage, after giving you and your psicryistal temporary HP through Vigor and Share Powers. It's a great psi-gish combo. With Share Powers, you get effectively 10 temporary HP per PP spent, and share pain lets your psicrystal take half of your damage. Using schism, you can quickly refil your temp HP if necessary at no expense of your usual actions.
Bacris 07-23-07, 10:26 AM	Are you kidding about biofeedback? My current Ardent uses it (took EK to get it, as he's a front-liner, so he has it as a 1 pp psywar power). I use that power every combat - and in at least 5 combats, it has saved him from death and/or dying. The last combat, without that, he would have been dying and unconscious. Instead, he was at exactly 0 hit points and able heal himself. My previous psywar also used it - it was one of the few powers he almost always activated, given his tiny power point pool. Personally, I've found biofeedback to be perhaps one of my favorite powers as a melee / gish character. The fact that it's scalable DR and it cannot be bypassed is huge - unless you're facing casters. :) The power point / hit point benefit far exceeds vigor if you take more than 2 hits.
Deekin 07-23-07, 02:09 PM	Some good stuff here, im currently making a gish character, but meta is not banned... I never really understood this power that much, you can only make 2 attacks, and the average damage is really only going to be a few more points then a greatsword... and thats untill he gets to a BAB of 11. Still unsure if its worthy or not.. Except your claws will be doing 3d6 by that level, so it keeps up.
hovnarr 07-24-07, 11:11 AM	Are you kidding about biofeedback? Check what he wrote about Inertial barrier. I see this come up both ways in many posts here. Some posters prefer biofeedback and some inertial barrier. The simple conclusion I think must be that it's a level issue. At mid level, IB is best. DR 5/- for 7 pp. The same would cost 10 pp with Biofeedback, and only last for one tenth of the time. Then again, you can get Biofeedback at level 1, and you can augment it to rival stoneskin later on. The power point / hit point benefit far exceeds vigor if you take more than 2 hits. Is this accurate? If you only spend 1 pp on either power, then yes. But how often would you use an unaugmented Vigor at mid level? A 7 pp Vigor will avail you of 35 points of damage (be it a fireball, giant boulder or anything else). A 7 pp IB will do the same thing if you get hit at least 7 times with a weapon. I must confess I'm not used to playing gishes, but I'd basically try to avoid being hit 7 times in most cases. At least by the level when you can manifest IB. Personally, I think I like Biofeedback more, because DR 2/- at level 1 for 1 pp is a lot more significant than DR 5/- at level 7 when you have better defensive options (speaking as a full manifester rather than gish here).
Bacris 07-24-07, 11:32 AM	Vigor is always 5 hit points per power point. After 3 hits, biofeedback at 1 power point is 6 hit points per power point :) And it just keeps getting better as you get attacked.
rilem 07-24-07, 11:52 AM	But Vigor works vs. more stuff — pits, breath weapons, Stone Power maneuvers, etc. So it's a judgement call here: you expect you'll be facing lots of swords/axes, Biofeedback is better. For varied encounters or a single, heavy-but-single-hitting beast, Vigor's probably superior.