Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokiyn 10-01-07, 12:46 AM	Since the original thread got pruned I’ve decided to rewrite the original concept and post it into a new thread. So let’s restate the original concept. Genesis, a ninth level power is often considered a weak ninth level power and, for the most part it is not for combat. Combat wise you are never going to us genesis as an attack power and even its antigenesis function, while total, is far to slow to be used as more than a wide scale demolition technique, I think the phrase “walk for your life” is appropriate.Anyway, Genesis is one of those spells that is clearly designed for out of combat purposes, with its long manifestation time, and its long time reaching completion even after completed manifesting, the Powers works best for those pc’s who are interested in world building, In other words if your campaign isn’t the type of campaign where the characters build fortresses and found kingdoms this probably isn’t the right power for you. Any amount of world building requires the players to spend quite a bit of their own time on the research and development of their chosen spheres of interest, unless of course they plan on using said area for the most minor of functions. So lets look at Genesis Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 9 Display: Material Manifesting Time: One week (8 hours/day) Range: 180 ft.; see text Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Astral Plane, centered on your location Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 17, XP You create a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes . This power works best when manifested while you are on the Astral Plane (various powers allow access to these planes, including astral caravan and plane shift). Manifestation of this power creates a local density fluctuation that precipitates the creation of a demiplane . At first, the fledgling plane grows in radius at a rate of 1 foot per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from the surrounding astral ectoplasm. Once the new demiplane reaches its maximum size, it doesn’t really stop growing, but its growth rate decreases to only 1 foot per week (approximately a 50-foot increase in radius per year) . Once your demiplane is created, you can travel to it using astral caravan, plane shift, or some other power or permanent link that you arrange for separately . You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This power cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). You must add these details in some other fashion if you desire. You can’t create lingering psionic effects with this power; you have to add those separately, if desired. Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane . Once your demiplane reaches 180 feet in radius, you can manifest this power again to gradually add another 180 feet of radius to it, and so on . Antigenesis: If genesis is manifested on the Material Plane, the power takes effect and the demiplane begins to grow at the rate noted above, but it gets no larger than a radius of 1 foot per level. The energies of the new plane are exactly canceled by the energies of the original plane, creating a dead spot like a limited cancer on the original plane. The expanding boundary of the dead spot wipes away all construction, crumbles natural land forms, and evaporates water, leaving behind a uniformly level area of inert dust. Living creatures that pass the boundary of the growing dead spot are not directly, but plants can fi nd no sustenance in the dust of the dead spot, water-breathing creatures die quickly when water turns to dust, and mobile animals know enough to leave the area alone . Once the wave of change passes, no special essence remains in the dead spot, and it may be colonized naturally over the course of several years by bacteria, plants, and animals . XP Cost: 1,000 XP . So, our question now is what can genesis do, After all the only common grounds we have as games is that the rules say you can do “X’ anything else is up to either the dm or a houseule. So lets list Genesis’s Traits You can explicitly Control Environmental Traits Atmospheric Composition Water Presence or Absence Temperature Terrain Shape You explicitly Cannot Create Lingering Psionic EffectsThe version of Genesis presented in the 3.0 Psionics handbook allowed the manifester to duplicate any effect they wanted up to a 3rd level power as environmental effects Create Life Create Constructions Create a plane of other than Stone and Dirt Create esoteric Metals (such as silver or Uranium) Cannot Manipulate the Time Traits Now this is what the power says you can and cannot do, explicitly. It is implied in the power though, because it calls out time traits that you can manipulate the physical traits of the plane (since Time is a subset of the physical and is an exception, the “logic” is that since the other physicals aren’t called out as can’t, you can). So what are the physicl Traits of Plane, Keeping as Core as possible, we find these traits listed in the Dungeon Masters Guide Physical Traits Gravity Normal Gravity Heavy Gravity Light Gravity No Gravity Objective Directional Gravity Subjective Directional Gravity Time Normal Time Timeless Flowing Time Erratic Time Shape and Size Infinite Finite Shape Self-Contained Shape Morphic Traits Alterable Morphic Highly Morphic Magically Morphic Divinely Morphic Static Sentient So Since Time, Shape, and Size are fixed, and the power cannot create life, this leaves us with (in theory) these possible Traits. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Sphere_halve.png/180px-Sphere_halve.png So lets look at Genesis in its most Restricted State, No Manipulation of the Traits except listed in the first list, and The Plane is Basically half filled, resulting in the main area of intrest being roughly equivalent to a circle with the same radius of the Sphere itself. In this Case the Area controlled and produced is roughly modeled by the following Formula (180*X)+(Y)=R (pi)R^2=A With the Following Definitions “X”:Is the number of times Genesis has be manifester on or in this demiplane for the purpose of planar formation or expansion “Y”:Is defined as the Number of week the demiplane has been in existence after the completion of the first manifestation, or (([Days – 180], Min 0)/7) “(pi)”:Equals 3 Since most of the time, Dungeons and Dragons resovles their calculations by rounding losing large percentages, and the results they fo get, appaear to be produced with using whole number multiplications rather than the more decimaled results using Pi rounded to Three we will use this value of pi for all calculations, while this results in the loss of 4.7% of the maximum value of the numbers, assume that that “loss” is compensated by the general tendency to ignore things like, building area, roads, wells, trees, etc etc that reduce the usable areas. Further more expect the results to also be compounded by rounding down to the nearest whole number, whole ten, or whole hundred. Meaning that all results are slightly larger than presented. That all being said…. The First thing we look at is the initial Genesis, in Most games this is all that the players really care about, so we will place this section first, and add the rest as expansions upon this foundation. 180^2*3= 97,200 Now to put that into perspective, one Acre is 43,560 Square Feet, This is Slightly less than the area of a football field, So a single Genesis is Roughly the size of the standard Highschool Football Stadium, With a second Manifestation of Genesis adding the parking lot. While one Acre is Roughly 209 Feet on the side, for ease of calculations we will round up (since in this case rounding up decreases the end results) to 210 feet squares. So For players only interested in the basics. A single manifestation of Genesis, nets you the Following. A Circle of Land 180 feet in diameter, That is approximately 2 acres of land, or 210 Stronghold spaces (using the Stronghold Builders Guide) in Flat area. This Land, if entirely land with no significant reductions from lakes or mountains, using data gathered from research on medieval English farmlands uses these numbers Seed Yd Rat Y(b/a) NetGain Pounds Oats 03.0 2.63 07.89 04.8 0132.0 Peas/Beans² 03.0 2.30 06.90 03.9 0203.5 Wheat 02.0 3.85 07.70 05.7 0295.8 Rye¹ 02.0 5.00 10.00 08.0 0385.2 Barley 0.40 4.32 17.28 13.2 0541.7 Sunflower, Oil 0.14 314 43.96 43.8 1182.6 Tons/ Acre Hay Yield 2 Gallons/Acre Sun(Oil) 50 Seed= Bushels per Acre Ratio= Multiplier Y(b/a)= Gross Yield (Bushels per Acre) NetGain=Net Yield After Seed crop Removed Pounds= Bushels of Crops converted into respective pound Weights. [indent]The numbers I extracted from a research paper on farm yields during the middle ages of England’s farmlands, since this seemed a fairly good match to the level of farm expertise in the world represented by dungeons and dragons I went with that. Sunflowers I tossed when I found it for a few reasons. But basically the numbers break down like this, Sunflowers seed weight is roughly 40% from oil, Sunflower oil is a fairly fire resistant oil, all things considered, but reaches its flash point at approximately 274 Degrees Celsius or about 525.2 Degrees Fare height. While initially I was concerned about this a little research showed that a wood fire can easily reach this temperature and be used to light an oil lamp. While not convenient, its still fairly simple to light an oil lamp filled with sunflower oil, most likely using a two step process where a candle (who’s hottest points reach well over 1000 Degrees Celsius) is used to light the lamp, while a small bit of tinder and flint is used to light the candle. So a few quick conversions later, and we have each acre of sunflowers yielding about 50 gallons of oil. The Oils Given in Dnd are unknown, but burn at the rate of one pint per 6 hours, or roughly 3 1/3 ounces per hour. At this Rate the Sunflower oil would last for about 2,400 hours of constant burn time, or doubling the Burn rate, for about 1,200 hours. So an Acre of Sunflowers would produce 15Gp worth of sunflower oil, with would fuel a lamp for anywhere from 100-200 days with a 12 hour night.The Hay Values are numbers I pulled from looking up various numbers from old ledgers and from some historians research into livestock handling, Basically the hay yield is a rough estimation from various sources on the amount of hay each acre of grain crop produces rounded down to a simple whole number, while I don’t have the numbers on hay to livestock ratios, its enough to ballpark the amount of hay each acre produces and then let the player decide what to do with it So What’s all this for? Well assuming that you are eating roughly 1.5 pounds oc cereals per day,(550 a year) the Psion could, in fact provide the bulk of his or her food stuffs with wheat, with the two acres land producing 590 Lb of Wheat, or 770 Lb of Rye, or 1080 Lb of Barley a Year. If the Psion maintained an underground fish pond, in theory someone could live fairly well on a reasonable, if not very varied, supply of food in their private domain. So That’s your Basic Single Manifestation of Genesis, The Formula for Acres to Manifestations is roughly as Follows 2.2041*”x”^2 with “X” equaling the number of manifestations. Of course each 3.5 years following the initial manifestion you will need to add a correction of +1 to the manifest counter to account for natural expansion. Manif Acres 01 2.2 02 8.8 03 19.8 04 35.2 05 55.1 06 79.3 07 108 08 141 09 178.5 10 220.4 That is the Simplest and Most RAW example for Genesis Now we move on to Genesis 2.0 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/Sphere-wireframe.png/240px-Sphere-wireframe.png Taking Genesis one step further depends on one factor, Manipulation of Gravity as an environmental trait, being classified as a physical trait of planes. Genesis two is the exact same as the previous genesis, except that it has a different formula for calculating available land. This Formula is, quite simply, the Surface area of a sphere. By selecting Gravity as pulling toward the outer edge of the demiplane, rather than simply “down” the Gravity field produces a spherical shell of earth and stone about a hollow core. The Formula for this is as Follows (180*X)+(Y)=R 4{pi)(R*Z)^2=SA With the Following Definitions “X”:Is the number of times Genesis has be manifester on or in this demiplane for the purpose of planar formation or expansion “Y”:Is defined as the Number of week the demiplane has been in existence after the completion of the first manifestation, or (([Days – 180], Min 0)/7) “Z”:Is defined as One minus the percentage of the spheres radius is allocated to Soil (Declared 10%) “(pi)”:Equals 3 As you can imagine, the Area for this is much larger than a simple circle, The outer Surface area (in Acres) of the demiplane is equivalent to 8.8”x”^2 with “X” equaling the number of manifestations. Of course each 3.5 years following the initial manifestation you will need to add a correction of +1 to the manifest counter to account for natural expansion. That is of course the Outer limits of the Sphere, The internal Acreage (Defined as the surface of the Soil) is 7.1”x”^2 These Number Result in a productive area of Manif Acres 01 007.1 02 028.5 03 064.2 04 114.2 05 178.5 06 257.0 07 349.9 08 457.0 09 578.4 10 714.1 If you Compare the two the Productive area of a spherical demiplane is roughly 325-360% greater than a circle demiplane of equivalent radius. Meaning that in our above example our hermit psion could triple the above yield numbers, at least. It’s perhaps best to mention that part of the Definition of an Acre is that it is the amount of Land that a single farmer can plant and plow, with the aid of an ox, in a single day. So Eventually the Psion will reach the point where he is unable to use all the land provided. If the environment is set to follow a seasonal pattern allowing only a single crop per year, this is roughly 30-40 acres, depending on how large the planting and harvesting season is programmed. In theory if the psion chose to maintain optimal conditions year round, the Psions growth and harvest would be limited only by the growth and harvest times the crop, which would vastly increase yield, In fact in theory if two farmers were to ofest themselves in such an environment, one farmer could plant one acre of crops a day, while the other farmer would be harvesting an acre of crops per day, in and endless circle of fertility. Now Genesis Three is an extension of two whose use of Genesis is still within the listed implicit boundaries while pushing the explicit boundaries of the power to its farthest extension http://www.erbzine.com/mag15/symme2h3.jpg How the Third and final version of Genesis worked was by using the gravity trait, Objective Directional Gravity. Using this Trait the psion declares that gravity is directed to Stone and tapers off rapidly so that the field of gravity does not extend very far from the stone (20-30 feet), When the Genesis power generates its demiplane it then creates the demiplane as listed above in genesis two, but as its size grows larger creates more and more internal spheres like a Russian nesting doll. You use the Same Formulas as above with some minor changes. First of Surface area ceases to be a simple formulas, but then becomes a chain of formulas. For example (R-20)^2*12= R1 (R1-30)^2*12= R2 (R2-30)^2*12= R3 Until R(n)<30 Each sphere is a 10 foot thick layer of stone, with a 10 foot thick layer of earth on each side of the layer with a 30 foot air gap separating each sphere’s outer soil layers, Each Sphere is kept in position by an never ending succession of pillars that form as the sphere expands. This method is similar to the others but produces an increase orders of magnitude above the other two methods. While the first two methods expand exponentially on the power of “2” the Third methods formula for surface area winds up roughly equivalent to this 23.7”x”^2.877 With the power approaching three the smaller the distance between “R” Values. This ends up with this result Manif Acres 01 24.8 02 170.2 03 541.9 04 1,245.6 05 2,387.3 06 4,072.6 07 6,407.4 08 9,497.4 09 13,448.5 10 18,366.5 Which leads us to the end Comparison tables of Manif Gene 01 Gene 02 Gene 03 01 002.2 007.1 00024.8 02 008.8 028.5 00170.2 03 019.8 064.2 00541.9 04 035.2 114.2 01245.6 05 055.1 178.5 02387.3 06 079.3 0257 04072.6 07 0108 349.9 06407.4 08 0141 0457 09497.4 09 178.5 578.4 13448.5 10 220.4 714.1 18366.5
Lokiyn 10-01-07, 12:46 AM	Reserved for "All about Demiplanes"
CrimsonDeath 10-01-07, 03:41 AM	Would you be able to use Genesis and Linked Power to gradually demolish a city without having to stand in the spot you intend to destroy for the entire manifestation time? Or would it only exempt you from the first round of concentration on Genesis?
Lokiyn 10-01-07, 04:11 AM	No Or rather Yes to part of the question and no to another. If genesis is manifested on the Material Plane, the power takes effect and the demiplane begins to grow at the rate noted above, but it gets no larger than a radius of 1 foot per level. The energies of the new plane are exactly canceled by the energies of the original plane, creating a dead spot like a limited cancer on the original plane. The expanding boundary of the dead spot wipes away all construction, crumbles natural land forms, and evaporates water, leaving behind a uniformly level area of inert dust. Living creatures that pass the boundary of the growing dead spot are not directly, but plants can fi nd no sustenance in the dust of the dead spot, water-breathing creatures die quickly when water turns to dust, and mobile animals know enough to leave the area alone . Antigenesis has some limitations that it did not have in the third edition version. First, Antigenesis is now limited to a radius equal to your manifester level, while it sounds big, a 20 foot diameter sphere is hardly that impressive on a citywide scale. Originally the text read as follows It is possible to manifest genesis on normal planes and demiplanes, but only the most perverse or evil shaper would consider doing so. If genesis is manifested within a normal plane or demiplane, the power takes effect according to the speed noted above; however, the energies of the new plane are exactly canceled by the energies of the original plane, creating a growing dead spot like a cancer on the original plane. The expanding boundary of the dead spot utterly wipes away all construction, crumbles natural land forms, and evaporates water, leaving behind a uniformly level plain of inert dust. Living things that pass the boundary of the growing dead spot are not directly harmed. But plants can find no sustenance in the dust of the dead spot, marine creatures die even more quickly when water turns to dust, and mobile animals know enough to leave the area alone. An antigenesis wave dies out after 100d10 years, or can be canceled by yet another manifestation of genesis. Origionally Antigenesis destroyed a 180 foot radius sphere, and expanded for hundreds of years, with a final radius of 180+(200-2000) feet. The Antigenesis function of either version is so limited as to be useless in both versions. The Week long casting time makes it worthless as a weapon, and the new versions smaller radius is equally limiting, which isn't to say it can't be used, for example Evil cursed items, and the bodies of villians X are piled up and obliterated from existance with antigenesis. As for link power, yes and no I say yes, because with link power you only need to be in the spot for the round it takes to manifest the initial power in the link chain I say no, because you aren't involved in the second manifestation at all and don't need to be there once it starts, thus no need to concentrate On the other hand i never got a chance to catch the end of the link power debate, i believe linked genesis boiled down to these options. Genesis manifests on the second round, no exp spent Genesis manifests on the Second round, you still pay exp Genesis begins manifesting and continues till completion one week later, No exp spent Genesis begins manifesting and continues till completion one week later, You still expend exp
Slagger the Chuul 10-01-07, 04:16 AM	Would you be able to use Genesis and Linked Power to gradually demolish a city without having to stand in the spot you intend to destroy for the entire manifestation time? Or would it only exempt you from the first round of concentration on Genesis? If you have a certain, oft-overlooked power, the manifesting time isn't an issue. Psionic goblins aren't the only source of blue goodness.
DreamerInsane 10-01-07, 07:19 AM	Soul Crystal? You, sir, are evil.
Slagger the Chuul 10-01-07, 11:28 AM	Soul Crystal? You, sir, are evil. Whether it's setting off nega-reality bombs in cities, or avoiding a week-long aneurysm on the Astral Plane, it's nice to know that the souls of powerful psions as yet unborn give us their support. :)
CrimsonDeath 10-01-07, 02:54 PM	So, if you have a power with a manifesting time longer than 24 hours, what do you do about starvation and exhaustion?
hovnarr 10-01-07, 03:59 PM	I've had a bit of trouble differing between the "can shape terrain" but "cannot shape structures" part. Is it OK to make elaborate cave systems (connected cubic holes really) in the bed rock of your demiplane? Also, how difficult is it to set up an artificial ecosystem from scratch? Fill a few bags of holding with dirt full of the necessary micro-flora and take them to your "moon" after setting the weather right. Then add plants and animals, Noa style?
carnivore 10-01-07, 07:31 PM	this is great.... but i already saved the original form of this thread ... in the Psion Buildguide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=624041) i can use this even better though Great Job.... i also have your Minor Creation thread stuff there as well :D
Lokiyn 10-02-07, 03:21 AM	I had though of reposting the original thread, but as i read it over again i realized that the original thread was fairly useless for most purposes. It basically boiled down to "whoo hoo look what i can do" with huge numbers and masses. So i took the original thread and boiled down and broke it up into three parts to make it more useful to the average gamer. A Circle of land A Sphere of Land A Nested Landscape And for ease converted the results onto acres, which is an easier way to understant the areas involved than just tossing out numbers with hundreds of thousands of square feet. Now its just a matter of checking the table for which method you are useing, and tallying the number of manifestations of genesis, and remembering that every 3.5 years you move up a notch naturally. Furthermore i realized that i never really explained the numbers in the original thread when it came to land production. So in the coded area i put a smaller box with yeilds from old england and another crop. I'm planning on taking the reserved section and putting as much information about the demiplane and some of its more obscre effects on the game in that second post. One effect thats very important for the average gamer is the demiplanes planar positioning. A Demiplane is only coterminus with the astral plane, while this doesn't seem terribly important it becomes so when dealing with effects that need the ethereal plane, ergo Bags of holding and other extradimensional spaces based of leomunds secure chest, as well as the spells etherealness and others.
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 03:44 AM	One effect thats very important for the average gamer is the demiplanes planar positioning. A Demiplane is only coterminus with the astral plane, while this doesn't seem terribly important it becomes so when dealing with effects that need the ethereal plane, ergo Bags of holding and other extradimensional spaces based of leomunds secure chest, as well as the spells etherealness and others. Also, effects that rely on the Plane of Shadow (like Shadow Walk). Plus, certain effects that rely on dreams (like Dream Travel) may not work until your demiplane has a permanent population.
Lokiyn 10-02-07, 03:52 AM	True, there are quite a few minor things that add up once you eliminate direct acess to some planes. I'm trying to write that up in my spare time. Anyway, I've had a bit of trouble differing between the "can shape terrain" but "cannot shape structures" part. Is it OK to make elaborate cave systems (connected cubic holes really) in the bed rock of your demiplane? Pretty much, The idea is that the demiplanes terrain isn’t something worked, so while you can make caves an weird shaped mountains, you couldn’t make a castle or a prefabricated house, while in theory you could set up a plateau with a hill in the middle and a cave system and call it a “castle” the structure would be composed of landscape formations rather than stone masonry. Also, how difficult is it to set up an artificial ecosystem from scratch? Fill a few bags of holding with dirt full of the necessary micro-flora and take them to your "moon" after setting the weather right. Then add plants and animals, Noah style? To be honest, most of the time we just handwave it, but for anyone interested here is the method I use. First off no plants, at least to start I generally declare the environment such that rains don’t begin until the demiplane is a certain size (to give me time to work on importing plants without erosion) Normally I tend to have at least a river and some sort of reservoir of water like a small pond or lakes in the area. My first addition then, is algae and fish to the waters of demiplane, and let that stabilize first. Once the Waters are generally stabilized in a way to support the fishy inhabitants of the ponds I seed the areas around the lakes with earthworms and the plants I want to be the starter crop for the plane. I do my best to keep anything other than the chosen plant life from entering the plane. Other than that I tend to operate on the assumption that my character tends to sterilized and import the flesh of monsters he kills and such to toss into the fish ponds and add to the biosphere. Most of the time though we just hand wave it. The simplest explanation for how to do it though is this. While the plane can’t create life, the “dirt” is roughly equivalent to a sterile version of the normal soil found in the planes will support plant life. So The psion only plants his chosen plants, and calls in a 5th level druid who owes him a favor to plant growth, enrich it for the first couple of years till the earthworms spread enough to help convert the dead plant matter to something the other plants can use, spread some compost to introduce the bacteria needed for decomposition and you’re set. Although to be honest, the last demiplane I used I sidestepped the whole issue and installed a Darksun Tree of life to handle the ecosystem. While the site (Athas.org) is down for the minute, The Basic Mechanics is that the Tree of life generates a large aura that duplicates the effects of rejuvenate, a spell that is designed to make sterile land fetile. In addition, the ground within the radius is able to sustain vegetation, as the rejuvenate spell, growing a carpet of green grass at the very least. Since the Radius of a Tree of life is a minimum of 300 feet and a maximum of 4,000 feet it works to deal with 99% of all issues related to the biosphere.
Avenger314 10-02-07, 11:49 AM	There are some other options available. Questions: Can you set magic traits? (IE--all healing spells are maximized and empowered) Can you set alignment traits? Can you set Energy traits? (IE--minor positive dominant, or major fire and negative dominant) Hostile: Make access to the demiplane not automatic--such as controlled by a pair of objects, say a red rock and a blue rock. Touching the red rock is the portal to the demiplane, touching the blue rock is the portal out. (According to manual of the planes, it is acceptable for some portals to be keyed to items). Touch an enemy with the red rock and he'll get transported to your demiplane. Don't put air in there, or food. For that matter, give it the major negative energy trait. Escape: Give it the minor positive dominant trait. You'll bounce back in a couple minutes at full hp. Also throw in magic traits such as all healing spells are maximized and empowered. All divination spells are cast at +2 caster level. And so on.
Lokiyn 10-02-07, 03:02 PM	There are some other options available. Questions: Can you set magic traits? (IE--all healing spells are maximized and empowered) Can you set alignment traits? Can you set Energy traits? (IE--minor positive dominant, or major fire and negative dominant) Hostile: Make access to the demiplane not automatic--such as controlled by a pair of objects, say a red rock and a blue rock. Touching the red rock is the portal to the demiplane, touching the blue rock is the portal out. (According to manual of the planes, it is acceptable for some portals to be keyed to items). Touch an enemy with the red rock and he'll get transported to your demiplane. Don't put air in there, or food. For that matter, give it the major negative energy trait. Escape: Give it the minor positive dominant trait. You'll bounce back in a couple minutes at full hp. Also throw in magic traits such as all healing spells are maximized and empowered. All divination spells are cast at +2 caster level. And so on. No, or rather there is no support in the Raw for the ability to manipulate the following Elemental And Energy Traits Alignment Traits Magic Traits As I mentioned earlier there is only the barest support for being able to manipulate gravity and Morphic traits. The only reason you might be able to manipulate the physical traits of the realm is because of the open ended line You determine the environment within the demiplane when you manifest genesis, reflecting most any desire you can visualize. You determine factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. The only support for Manipulation of the physical traits resides in the concept that physical traits are environmental, which is also partially supported with the specific call out of time as a trait you cannot manipulate. The problem is that the definition of environment is so open ended and subject to interpretation that each dm can declare their own set of rules. The Strictest Interpretation Is Genesis One, using only the listed traits in the power. A Slightly Looser interpretation is Genesis Two, which uses only the physical planar traits, rather than the metaphysical traits. The Loosest Interpretation available without going into the "it doesn't say I can't" realm is Genesis three. Basically you have these two extremes I Explicitly Can I Explicitly Cannot Since it states that Demiplanes produced by Genesis do not have the normal permanent link, your example of a hostile demiplane with variable access falls under the latter set of demiplanes. I see that I am going to actually set aside some time to fill out the second post as soon as possible
Jaid 10-02-07, 04:58 PM	on a side note, while the nested spheres gives the largest amount of usable land, there is nothing stopping you from, say, having your method 1 use multiple layers... that is, instead of nested spheres, you have the option of doing 1 layer of open space, followed by a layer of rock/dirt/whatever, possibly with a source of water on each layer etc (possibly even having the water in raised reservoirs, so you can easily channel the water elsewhere). of course, i myself am much too lazy to do the math needed for that, but it's always a possibility =D
Lokiyn 10-02-07, 05:45 PM	True, Layering the plane like a "cake" isn't too much of a problem. The main thing you have to do is break out the formulas for cord lengths.. Frankly i'm to lazy at the moment to do all that math, However again, the end results winds up roughly equivalent to the nested sphere method with the total formula for acreage aproaching ever closer to a power of 3. Basically, area wise, the Cake method and the Russian Doll method are equivalent in the end, for the most part. Its just that the Cake method requires quite a bit more calculations thatn the Spheres.
Slagger the Chuul 10-03-07, 12:26 PM	Since what you're actually trying to do is maximize the surface area for people to live on, the ideal pattern would be a grid. Essentially, your plane should be a series of environment boxes (I'll assume cubes, since they tesselate neatly in three dimensions), each with six interior surfaces to live on, gravity directed towards the closest wall, and internal weather. Ideally, each box will be as small as is feasible to have people living in (or to perform whatever purpse you need) so that you don't waste more space in the middle than necessary. Assuming that the boxes are reasonably small, only an insignificant amount of space is wasted on the edges of the grid as the outermost layer of boxes develops. The other alternative is to have a completely open plane with subjective directional gravity and an atmosphere containing enough moisture and raw nutrients to serve as a basis for life (including using the entire plane as a vast hydroponic vat). This model addresses the issue of surface space by eliminating the requirement of a surface. Why focus on making fanciful ground arrangements when you don't need ground?
Asadeseth 10-03-07, 10:39 PM	Hee, yhea Lokiyn, exactly what I would have done. Love trees of life, they make so meny things easyer. Also love the thred, sory the old one got pruned. One thing to think about when useing Genesis 2 meta-psionic feets become paramount, extend and widen. These 2 feets can help grow your demiplane with so much less effert and over all xp loss you nead to do anything and everthing you can to use both of them on Genesis as meny times as possible. First of course you can just use the feets, over all this will increase your demiplanes total raidus buy 300% with out costing you any more xp, but it IS possible to aply them again if your willing to pay. Rods of Meta Magic can be of assistance here, okay the trans rules ARE in question here, lest not argue the point, both sides can make good points, BUT if you do alow them to effect psioncs then they can deffently pay off in the long run even if you just have to "rent" them from some one else. The therd way is to use wishes, you can use a wish to add any meta magic/psionic feet to any power even if said feet has already been aplyed. Granted it cost 5k xp, but so dose Genesis, and if you have already aplied ether the first, second, or both of the other methods then wishes will MORE than pay for them selves here.
CrimsonDeath 10-04-07, 03:54 AM	Essentially, your plane should be a series of environment boxes (I'll assume cubes, since they tesselate neatly in three dimensions), each with six interior surfaces to live on, gravity directed towards the closest wall, and internal weather. Subjective directional gravity (as Limbo) might be better, so you don't have people slamming into walls when they walk too close. How big would you make the cubes, anyway? The other alternative is to have a completely open plane with subjective directional gravity and an atmosphere containing enough moisture and raw nutrients to serve as a basis for life (including using the entire plane as a vast hydroponic vat). This model addresses the issue of surface space by eliminating the requirement of a surface. Why focus on making fanciful ground arrangements when you don't need ground? Weightless (as Astral or Ethereal) might work better with this setup.
hovnarr 10-04-07, 04:27 AM	Alright, so everyone essentially lives in a gravitational pyramid, 6 of which forms a cube? I have a hard time imagining how the cubes are connected to working areas, each other etc. The inhabitans will want contact with each other, common rooms, dining areas - an outdoors environment (albeit an artificial one) would be preferable etc. How would the get from cube to cube with all that ever-changing gravity?
Lokiyn 10-04-07, 04:48 AM	I ran a little bit of the math and here is what i saw, There isn't any significant difference, between, Cake, Sphere, and Grid Method, its all a matter of personal preference. While the area formula is still ZX^Y, Generally The values over a range of 1-10 manifestations are fairly close within the same range. of course this was just a simple fiddling with the numbers without any actual real hard math. Ideally i would plug the formula with the calculated Z and Y values into excell and forcast them backwards and forwards to see which one diverges faster (ergo, the higher Y value) Basically any cofiguration with the Y value greater than 2.877, will beat out the Spheres over time, I simply like the spheres for aestetics and ease of calculations. Which brings me to Asadeseth, These metapsionic feats can not apply to genesis, it does not meet the prerequisites Chain Power Empower Power Enlarge Power Extend Power Maximize Power Opportunity Power Quicken Power Split Psionic Ray Widen Power These Can be Burrowing Power Delay Power Twin Power Unconditional Power Of these only twin has any effect. This is important to note that the effects of twin, only apply on the initial creation, twined expansion genesis effects fail, as the plane is limited to a single expansion cycle at a time, you cannot "build up" cycles. Twin on the initial manifestation creates two demiplanes sharing the same features. Genesis has a cost of 1000 exp, not 5000. Wish does not explicitly allow the addition of metamagic feats. Transparency does not apply to feats, While yes a psion can use a metamagic rod, the metamagic Feat applied to the power is invalid, rendering the whole exercise moot. Basically as to what shape is best? Who really cares. While intellectually i will eventually get around to working out the math, on a more real time frame few if any games revolve around landscaping and engineering. 99.999% of the time Genesis One or Two will serve all the party's and Dm's needs with less headache and less trauma than Genesis Three, While i personally love the idea of the Three, be it Cake, Russian, or Rubic, I Don't need it as a player or as a dm. As a Dm i can just have the plane be older, Every 3.5 years counts as a free manifestation, so a 32-33 year old plane is already the equivalent of 10 manifestations. As a Player, i'm not concerned with anything that doesn't affect, at most 200 people (assuming leadership and such) (400ish if extra followers) Each Acre is Roughly 100 Stronghold Spaces, Which Barracks Style i only need at most 40 SS worth of Barracks. Which is Provided easily with Genesis One, Since the Genesis power demiplane is an exception and doesn't have its own portal, i doubt mass detail is necessary, any more than Detailed blueprints of the fighters stronghold are. Its enough to say, its there and you can do "blank" with it.
Slagger the Chuul 10-04-07, 06:09 AM	Subjective directional gravity (as Limbo) might be better, so you don't have people slamming into walls when they walk too close. How big would you make the cubes, anyway? If you're dealing with a lot of solid surfaces, subjective directional gravity could get tricky, although there doesn't seem to be any good reason you couldn't just make the gravity too weak to cause harm. You can bend the gravity at the corners, if you really want, but the size depends on what you're doing with it. If you just want space for people to live in, a 20-foot cube could potentially include the equivalent of a stronghold space on each wall. If you go much larger than the space people needed overhead, you'll probably want smaller internal cubes to avoid wasting center space. Weightless (as Astral or Ethereal) might work better with this setup. I'm not sure those are standard anymore, but you can do essentially the same thing with subjective directional gravity if you adjust the gravitational strength. The Astral Plane is already subjective directional, while the Ethereal Plane lists "no gravity" (but spells like ethereal jaunt allow fairly free movement). Alright, so everyone essentially lives in a gravitational pyramid, 6 of which forms a cube? I have a hard time imagining how the cubes are connected to working areas, each other etc. The inhabitans will want contact with each other, common rooms, dining areas - an outdoors environment (albeit an artificial one) would be preferable etc. How would the get from cube to cube with all that ever-changing gravity? It would probably be easiest to connect them with gaps at the corners, but personally, I'd also avoid the pyramid part and just user smaller cubes if I wanted more surfaces. While pyramid shapes also tesselate nicely, you end up with corners where there isn't enough space to stand, which is wasteful for human purposes; the perpendicular corners of a cube always allow enough space to stand.
Saryn_Ranvier 10-05-07, 04:14 PM	Antigenesis evaporates water, right? What would happen if you manifest it under water surface? If used at the bottom of an sea/ocean, under big enough pressure it could possibly create short-term weather disturbance due to big atmosphere moisture. Or dry lake or river within days. It doesn't say whether all this water simply transforms instantly into gas level (I don't how it's in english) which would generate sudden air pressure increase like in explosives, or slowly evaporate. Even than it would make impossible to swim (an person or at ship) over place where it was manifested - imagine bubbles- good anti-naval weapon. Wow, I haven't used that language for 6 months and it's hard
Lokiyn 10-05-07, 05:52 PM	Antigenesis doesn't necessarily induce a phase change water-breathing creatures die quickly when water turns to dust, The implication is that while water is evaporating, its doing so in a non standard manner, Being converted into an inert Dust, If the conversion is instantaneous, then you would generate a whirlpool effect as water is converted to dust and piles up in the sphere, or if the sphere is somehow above ground level, you would see the water swirl into a spot, and clouds of non reactive matter falling from the bottom of the sphere to pile up beneath it. In effect for a marine enviroment you would look up whirlpools and have creatures sucked in lose all unattended objects. At least, thats my personal take on it.
Lokathor 11-04-07, 04:18 AM	Have the Demiplane be an island centered in an ocean. Cover it in redwoods, then build a giant sunken gear, a log cabin, a sunken ship at the dock, a rocket ship, and a spooky underground generator room. A useful question: The power says that you can Plane Shift to and from the demiplane, so does that mean from and to any place on the plane? Or is still like normal demiplanes where all entry points are at specific places that you can guard? Opinions? Actual Sage rulings? DM's call?
Tedronai 11-04-07, 09:42 PM	With Plane Shift's inaccuracy of a minimum of 5 miles, targeting any point on the plane can easily place you at any other point. Just be thankful that you arrive on the right plane in the first place.
Tedronai 11-04-07, 09:42 PM	With Plane Shift's inaccuracy of a minimum of 5 miles, targeting any point on the plane can easily place you at any other point. Just be thankful that you arrive on the right plane in the first place.
Lokathor 11-05-07, 10:22 AM	Well that's my issue. In a normal Demiplane there are specific places that a person can use to enter and they can't enter through any other place. If I'm the defender of my own demiplane, can potential foes come in anywhere? Or can I set up a special Anti-Magic zone around the single entry point that only my followers can open the Adamantium/Obdurium door to from outside?
Zathress 11-10-07, 05:31 PM	Well that's my issue. In a normal Demiplane there are specific places that a person can use to enter and they can't enter through any other place. If I'm the defender of my own demiplane, can potential foes come in anywhere? Or can I set up a special Anti-Magic zone around the single entry point that only my followers can open the Adamantium/Obdurium door to from outside? One thing to keep in mind is TO planeshift you need a special focus: Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. How will your foes possibly know how to construct the focus to your demiplane? That might require some research or the use of the spell gate to by pass that requirement. For extra security put up permanent mages private sanctums this will prevent anyone from scrying on anything in your demiplane. Keep in mind you can't planeshift to a place you don't know exists, the best way they can find out it exists is through scrying. For ultimate protection activate a weird stone and prevent all incoming travel and scrying in a 6 mile radius. However should you planeshift out of your demiplane leaving the stone active you'll never get back in.
Undrhil 11-10-07, 05:33 PM	In Genesis 2.0, what's to stop the caster/manifester from using the inside of the sphere as well? It would be a Dyson sphere, in effect and would have a much larger area than the outside of the sphere would have. The main problem would be a light source and, let's face it, you could probably create a gaseous fireball as your first casting of Genesis and then create the second casting around that first one. :)
Lokiyn 11-10-07, 07:36 PM	Well, with Genesis2 you are using the inside of the sphere, Gravity points outwards. Since Genesis demiplanes are finite, the outer boundry is an impenetrable barrier, so the soil is layered on that and the inside of the sphere is used for surface area. As for lighting, i use two methods. Indefinite light sourceI simply declare that the atmosphere itself sort of glows in a form of sourceless light that rises and dims according to the night day schedule GlowvinesIf you have the Demogorgon Dragon Issue it also has a bunch of magical plants stated, previously i would just say i would find some, but now i have stats for them so i use that. Basically Glowvines bloom constantly and glow during the night, each flower glows with the brightness of a torch and grows incredible fast with no upkeep, the "night" is lit by vines trimmed and layed out across the demiplane while the "day" is dark In addition, multiple castings of genesis do not produce independent planes in planes, each genesis (not used for expansion) produces individual planes not linked to each other. As for the acess, baring further clarification its assumed that unless otherwise specified the demiplanes follow the rules layed out for them, so any method of planar travel links only to a singular location in the demiplane. As a side effect of this teleport (or any other effect dependent on the astral) from point to point in the demiplane does not function either, although curiously it is possible to give a demiplane its own unique ethereal plane-let (a few sample demiplanes are listed as having their own ethereal). Whats useful about this is that the divine[truespeech] version (and i suppose to be fair, the arcane version) function only on an ethereal plane, so its possible to set up a plane like this Astral --(planeshift/gate)--> Psionic plane --(etherealness or etheral tapestry)-->DemiEthereal --Ether color Curtain--> Divine demiplane With the divine demiplane being completely inacessable from the astral or etheral requireing anyone attempting to reach it to pass through the psionic demiplane first.
CrimsonDeath 11-10-07, 09:13 PM	One thing to keep in mind is TO planeshift you need a special focus: Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. Unless you're using the Psionic version. I don't know how Psions find planes they're shifting to. (One of the reasons my Nomad had maxed out Knowledge: The Planes.)
Undrhil 11-14-07, 11:03 AM	Well, with Genesis2 you are using the inside of the sphere, Gravity points outwards. Since Genesis demiplanes are finite, the outer boundry is an impenetrable barrier, so the soil is layered on that and the inside of the sphere is used for surface area. As for lighting, i use two methods. Indefinite light sourceI simply declare that the atmosphere itself sort of glows in a form of sourceless light that rises and dims according to the night day schedule GlowvinesIf you have the Demogorgon Dragon Issue it also has a bunch of magical plants stated, previously i would just say i would find some, but now i have stats for them so i use that. Basically Glowvines bloom constantly and glow during the night, each flower glows with the brightness of a torch and grows incredible fast with no upkeep, the "night" is lit by vines trimmed and layed out across the demiplane while the "day" is dark In addition, multiple castings of genesis do not produce independent planes in planes, each genesis (not used for expansion) produces individual planes not linked to each other. As for the acess, baring further clarification its assumed that unless otherwise specified the demiplanes follow the rules layed out for them, so any method of planar travel links only to a singular location in the demiplane. As a side effect of this teleport (or any other effect dependent on the astral) from point to point in the demiplane does not function either, although curiously it is possible to give a demiplane its own unique ethereal plane-let (a few sample demiplanes are listed as having their own ethereal). Whats useful about this is that the divine[truespeech] version (and i suppose to be fair, the arcane version) function only on an ethereal plane, so its possible to set up a plane like this Astral --(planeshift/gate)--> Psionic plane --(etherealness or etheral tapestry)-->DemiEthereal --Ether color Curtain--> Divine demiplane With the divine demiplane being completely inacessable from the astral or etheral requireing anyone attempting to reach it to pass through the psionic demiplane first. In the original post, you said the Genesis 2.0 uses the *outer* surface of the sphere. You then proceeded to give formulae which expounded upon how much room this outer surface area would give to the person who created the sphere. Therefore, you are not using the inner surface of the sphere at all.
Legdiwena 11-14-07, 01:14 PM	Where can I get info on weird stone?
Lokiyn 11-14-07, 06:43 PM	8.8”x”^2 with “X” equaling the number of manifestations. Of course each 3.5 years following the initial manifestation you will need to add a correction of +1 to the manifest counter to account for natural expansion. That is of course the Outer limits of the Sphere, The internal Acreage (Defined as the surface of the Soil) is 7.1”x”^2 As in outer surface of a smaller sphere (as in the hollow bit) is identical to the inner layer of a larger hollow sphere (The Soil) The design was that the soil was always a fixed percentage of the total radius of the demiplane
hangedman1984 11-14-07, 09:28 PM	Although to be honest, the last demiplane I used I sidestepped the whole issue and installed a Darksun Tree of life to handle the ecosystem. You wouldn't happen to know where I can get the mechanics for that, would you?
Lokiyn 11-14-07, 11:23 PM	It's on Page 38 (http://athas.org/releases/totdl/) of the Terrors of the Deadlands Market Price: 100,150 Gp Creation Cost: 50,150gp and 4,000 exp (Minimum, you can boost the hit dice as well as the radius of the aura's)
Zathress 11-15-07, 04:18 AM	Where can I get info on weird stone? Player's Guide to Faerun, but its expensive as all hell.