Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 09:29 AM	All right, so we started a new campaign last night. Three players, level 3, going through Savage Tide. We have a fighter 1/ wizard 2, a Bard 3, and me, the 3rd level Psychic Warrior. The DM gave us equipment: I recieved a +1 greatsword, masterwork armor, a Belt of Healing, and a Cloak of Res +1. The other two recieved similar stuff. We rolled stats, 4d6 drop the lowest. I ended up with: Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 8 These were rolled in full view of the DM, in case anyone cares. So, I write up a 2H PsyWar, with Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus, and Speed of Thought just because. I chose Expansion, Force Screen, and Offensive Precognition as powers, for my six whole power points. Well, in the campaign, we boarded the ship and had to fight off a bunch of pirates/thugs/whatever they are. The DM was slightly upset because if I hit one of them, they tended to fall down shortly thereafter. Then the giant spider came out; Large size, so I decided to match it. The bard (a gnome) and the fighter mage got grappled by it, so I proceeded to bash the crap out of it while Expanded. Two rounds later, it's in a few pieces. The DM didn't say anything, but the other two players complained because "You killed it too fast!" Am I over-optimizing, are they just whining because they failed their grapple checks and couldn't join in, or is it a combination of the two? The DM has stated that Deep Impact is off-limits, but Shock Trooper's fine. That's what I'm building towards.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-11-08, 09:36 AM	I've Dmed the Savage Tide, and that specific encounter, your DM should have know, is specifically easy(It was written it was built that way.). My players (Namely my brother) Had little trouble making through it, and they are lame optimisers.
Selgard 04-11-08, 09:37 AM	You are too strong /only/ in terms of the party. A bard? A fighter/wizard? At 3rd level you are -going- to be stronger than them unless you pick useless feats and use useless weapons with useless powers. You picked a combat class for a full 3 levels. The bard picked a support class. The wizard gimped himself- and wizards don't really come "into their own" until later in life. IMO- you are doing just fine.. Lower levels is where the melee guys really shine anyway. DO keep in mind though that being right isn't the end of the story. If they are dissatisfied with the way the campaign is going you might want to sit down with all 3 of them (players+DM) and talk about possible solutions. Maybe the wizard can rearrange his spells (and go pure wizard) and ... maybe the bard can remmber that singingi is his contribution to group combat, unless (s)he has the feats for melee combat and such? just my .02 (or maybe .04.. i lost count) -S
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 10:30 AM	The fighter/mage is headed towards Swiftblade as soon as he qualifies. At that point, I think the complaining will stop, at least from that player, because he's going to end up making me look like creamed corn. I've been trying to steer the bard towards multiclassing into Marshal. On a slightly different note, are there any decent prestiges for a psychic warrior other than elocater or war mind? I don't want to give up too much in the way of ML as I have discovered that the powers available to me do not suck, as I once thought.
Ecalsneerg 04-11-08, 11:12 AM	The fighter/mage is headed towards Swiftblade as soon as he qualifies. At that point, I think the complaining will stop, at least from that player, because he's going to end up making me look like creamed corn. I've been trying to steer the bard towards multiclassing into Marshal. On a slightly different note, are there any decent prestiges for a psychic warrior other than elocater or war mind? I don't want to give up too much in the way of ML as I have discovered that the powers available to me do not suck, as I once thought. Slayer is effective, but needs a Ranger dip. The class itself drops a ML, so you've lost 2 if you take Ranger. Lords of Madness has the Sanctified Mind. It's an anti-psionic class, but gives full BAB, 5/6 levels of manifesting and the 6th level capstone is power resistance.
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 11:14 AM	The Slayer is pretty good, but considering the campaign I doubt I'll meet the special requirement anytime soon, unfortunately. I have LoM so I'll check out the other one. Thanks :D
InkBlot 04-11-08, 11:19 AM	Illithid Slayer (and Slayer) doesn't require a Ranger dip. A dip would help qualify, but you can still qualify by level 5 as a single-classed Psywar. Track is a general feat, and anybody can put 4 cross-class ranks into Knowledge (Dungeoneering) by 5th level. The more difficult requirement is defeating a mindflayer, but Ranger levels won't particularly help with that. Personally, I wouldn't ever use the Slayer prestige class (the genericized Illithid Slayer from the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicSlayer.html)) as is. It's good for a jumping off point for quickly whipping up an Insert-Creature-Here Slayer. You could strip it of some class features to create a kind of Psionic Eldritch Knight. As is, however, the Slayer leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Lycanthromancer 04-11-08, 11:24 AM	Fighter/wizard is a horrible combination, though since the player in question is qualifying for an (undoubtedly) overpowered arcane prestige class (since the vast majority of them are, given that they're arcane casters), remind the player in question that, frankly, at this point his character build sucks. If he were pure wizard and were playing the way wizards are supposed to be played, he'd be pwning everything with save-or-die/save-or-sucks like grease and color spray. The fact is that you would also be turning the enemies into chum if you were playing a pure fighter, barbarian, ranger, druid, cleric, a halfways optimized-for combat bard, rogue, or other halfway-optimized class. The fact is that since there are so few useless psionic options, it's easy to optimize (psionics is fluid, dynamic, and intuitive), but it's very hard to break. It remains that you could've taken it down faster and easier with a level 3 barbarian with a potion of enlarge person. Either have them rebuild their characters to forge a stronger core-group, or tell them to be patient for a few levels. This is your time to shine, which will come to an abrupt end once the wizard and bard come into their own (which should be any time now). Assuming, that is, that the players have some clue about how to play their classes effectively (though it doesn't seem likely, given their complaints). In any case, you can also go to the CO boards with your friends and ask around to see what the optimizers think of this (they'll laugh at the situation, I'm sure).
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 11:29 AM	Swiftblade has mixed reactions, but I've already heard about his arcane striking/wraithstrike casting/enlarge personing/ Innervated Speed (think time stop, except kind of not) using plans. That player knows mostly what he's doing, but the guy playing the bard does NOT, despite his protestations. Thing is, I have to be careful; they've had the impression that (cover your eyes, here it is again) psionics is broken for so long that I'm afraid I'm only reinforcing it. :rolleyes:
Lycanthromancer 04-11-08, 11:47 AM	Tell them that you're useful rather than useless, and that you're using a decent build using decent tactics, and that it was an easy fight, like going up against a handful of kobolds. You're using character resources to be good at what you do, but you'd be equally good with another class. Psychic warriors are considered right on the point of balance (standing at a 6/10) throughout their career (rather than about a 7 for fighters at early levels and 3 for fighters later on, and a 5 for wizards early on, shifting to a 10 at later levels), which means you'll be slightly more powerful in the beginning, and significantly less so at the end. But you'll likely always at least feel like you're participating, and never useless. Psychic warriors are an excellent example of how every class should be set up from the very beginning to the very end.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-11-08, 12:01 PM	Seriously, the first encounter is a walk in the park. There's gonna be a lot more trouble later.
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 12:01 PM	Thanks for the advice; I've seen you around for awhile, and I know that you all know what you're talking about. I'm not usually the melee person; I'm almost always the spellcaster (arcane, of course) so balance is a relative issue when I'm not sure what's "good" for melee guys.
PhaedrusXY 04-11-08, 01:01 PM	The fact is that you would also be turning the enemies into chum if you were playing a pure fighter, barbarian, ranger, druid, cleric, a halfways optimized-for combat bard, rogue, or other halfway-optimized class.Quoted for emphasis. You're a melee dude. Melee dudes are good at 1st through 4th level or so. The fighter mage could do the same thing, if he built for playing at 3rd level instead of planning ahead for his real ultimate power later.
The_Mess 04-11-08, 01:46 PM	What book is Swiftblade from? I couldn't find it in the consolidated list.
Tempest Stormwind 04-11-08, 01:50 PM	What book is Swiftblade from? I couldn't find it in the consolidated list. Main D&D website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), NOT notorious for originally being mechanically unsound, but rather for its author visiting the CO boards and asking for help balancing it. (Note the thanks to NineInchNall at the bottom; if you don't frequent the CO boards he maintains things like the Shadowcraft Mage guide.) The author's been involved with the community before; if you've heard of the "alternate 10-level Invisible Blade" that explains why the Invisible Blade's prerequisites don't match its abilities, that was him. The handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=859073) has more information about the class. It's an excellent gish class with a deliberate niche, sort of like the Slayer in that regard (weaker on spellcasting, better on class features).
Avatar of Kokusho 04-11-08, 01:50 PM	It's here onsite; here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)'s a link.
calronmoonflower 04-12-08, 03:07 PM	Your dungeon master isn't asking the right questions. Are the other party members weak? If you where at the same power level as the other party members would there be a total party kill? Once these two questions are answered you get a better idea of the balance of the game and therefor can determine balance.
CrimsonDeath 04-12-08, 08:25 PM	Incidentally, the Wizard's build isn't necessarily going for "real ultimate power". If you're thinking of the late game, the optimal entry into Swiftblade is Wizard 6. With the Fighter dip, he's looking at gaining level 8 spells when he hits level 20, and he won't even get a better end-game BAB out of it. And he won't even qualify for Swiftblade any earlier because it requires BAB +3 and the ability to cast Haste (which he'd have no sooner than level 6 either way).
Tsuul 04-13-08, 02:44 AM	Can I put this in a different perspective? So you guys are playing Cowboys and Indians with cap guns but you brought a water pistol. The wizard will eventually be upgrading to a howitzer (to the chagrin of the local authori....er... city), while the bard will forever be reminding people that "You're dead! *snap* *snap* You're dead!" Amiclose? All kidding aside, the bard needs to go. Make a deal with the wizard to split the world in half if you help him out though those pesky low levels. And pray he he honors his end of the deal, 'cause all you can do on that subject matter is pray. Ok, really this time, all kidding aside. I can only echo many of the posters above. Talk to the group, find out their expectations on party "power" level, and explain how a psychic warrior fits in (low level, mid level, high level).
Avatar of Kokusho 04-13-08, 06:33 AM	Well, this is the first time I have played one, and the two who complained don't like psionics in any way, shape, form or fashion. I've passed along the helpful info found here and from a few other people, and nothing will change their minds. I know that the wizard is going to make me look like junk later, so I guess, as long as the DM has no issue with it, I'll give it a few levels for then to quit whining about it. I'm not trying to be a glory hog; I'll just discreetly leave them alone until it looks like they need someone to save the day.