Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Theremustbebalance 04-09-07, 01:27 PM	I every one. I must sey it is one of the first post I made on this but I have been a gamer for the past 18 years so I think my experience speaks for itself. I am writting this post not to discourage anybody about any of he psy class but rather to explain to every body my personal experience with the class in different D&D game. I found out trought experience since the expended psy book as come out that you must be very very managing while DMing a game that includea psy character with different class more basic to the D&D universe. Here an exemple, one of my pc( it is always just one guy who want to play this class go figure, youll never see a complete party made just with the psionic book...;) )wanted very much to play a character psion for a game in the forgotten realm setting. But since I was playing the oiginal D&D for several years and since I HAD encouter pc psionic character from previous edition.... AD&D 2 edt rock through brain kinda power... I was a little worry about introducing this class. But, after I talk with my player and been brief thourouly on the subject by another friend that works in a gaming store I decided to let the pc do is psion character for the game. The most persuasive argument I got from the pc was: dont worry there not overpowerfull this time I wont steal the show , Its just like a mage but with points insteads of spell slots. So after the pc created his new character for the game, and joins the party ( all character are level 9 except the psion who his level 8, ( house rules to promot the pc who are not just dying for the sake of making something new.... big problems now a day;) ) they leave or the cavern were the quest his being held. So just to test the newly form party, I trow in an unexpected ambush consisting of a few drow, 2 giant spider and a few enchemen( some 1 level figther slaves) total number of force= about 25 head and none of these are more powerfull then the party themselve. Ok , so the other character join the figth the wizard call in is armor quicken + his ligthing bolt on the spider damaging one realy badel, figther joint the fun with the cleric and start hacking all those henchmen left and rigth about 5 deads, and of couse the thief use his newly cloack of elvenkind and try to sneak up the evil commanding drow for the kill. Then come the psion turn, he look at me and say: I gona shoot my energies missile at those guy , I can hit five head with those missile not any of witch can be more then 15 feet appart. Ok so im expecting a small magic missile kinda spell so that the damage should be just to kill the spider and wound the rest. 66 points of damge he say, your save is at 23. My jaw drop for the first time. Ok 66 points of damage divided by 5 rigth one for each target?? NO NO 66 point of damage to each target , sav fortitude 23 and no magic resist. And its not even a high level spell OMFG. so naturaly my encouter his vanquish but the other pc are a little enoyed by the fact that the psion could kill son many in so little time so I tell them not to worry it was not a tought encouter, it was just a test. So the game continu, later that night, the pc come acros a dragon, shadow dragon to be precised. There so excited to face it, it been a while since they could face such a good challenged. SO anyhow, the battel start with the dragon taking the first strike and the pc stating with the psion after. So the dragon take all his attack on the psion and boy did he hit with his big claw attack crittic 42 points of damages. So a littel embaresed i look at the newly generated character of the pc tells him that the dragon cleaves him with his mythig claws and almost rip his shoulder off for 42 dmg. The pc look at me and says exacly this: that alright man I use my psy points and reduce the damage of the dragon to 2. OMFG, a race that can actualy to be continu
Deekin 04-09-07, 01:38 PM	Energy Missile Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Kineticist 2 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: Up to five creatures or objects; no two targets can be more than 15 ft. apart. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 3 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You release a powerful missile of energy of the chosen type at your foe. The missile deals 3d6 points of damage to each creature or object you target, to the maximum of five targets. You cannot hit the same target multiple times with the same manifestation of this power. Cold A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold missile is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save. Electricity Manifesting a missile of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire A missile of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Sonic A missile of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6) and its save DC increases by 1. That's the Power he used. And he cheated. There is no way to hit 66 Damage at 8-th level. Just out of curiosity, what the hell were 5 monsters doing in a 15ft- diameter circle? Empowered, the Maximum you could was 60 points. Non-empowered, 54 points of damage. Maybe, if you have overchannel, empower it, and roll all 6s, you could hit 66 points of damage.
Witch 04-09-07, 01:40 PM	Excuse me for not taking a party's exploits as detailed by someone who lacks the ability to write English without making my brain melt seriously.
SdEoXgY 04-09-07, 01:43 PM	First off, I am going to respond with what I think you were saying, no offence, but I had a hard time reading that. So. He was 8th lvl, and using a 2nd lvl Power. 2nd lvl powers need 3 pts, which gives him 5 more points to spend. Energy Missile, as it is, gives you 1d6 +1 DC per extra power point that you put into it. So 8d6 with a +5 DC (I would recommend you go with +1 DC per 2d6, but that would be me) If he used fire then that would be 8d6+8 (max 56) Also, if you use the magic transparceny rule, that power resistance and spell resistance are the same. There are some powers/feats that break that rules but they clearly state so. I suspect you might want to make yourself more familiar with the psionic rules (you can just download the SRD, it has all the info you need). I also suspect that the player is being selective about what rules he is using as well.
Tempest Stormwind 04-09-07, 01:43 PM	For someone who says they've been gaming for 18 years, you sure type like someone who's been typing for less than a tenth of that. You had a problem with Energy Missile. There's already a thread dealing with this. It's stickied at the top of the forum. Let me quote it.Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike. Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage. For further comparison of usage, if enemies are not bunched up, meaning you can get maybe 2-3 enemies at most with the power, it might actually be better to focus on one and use an Energy Ray - a level 1 general power - which has no save, but requires a touch attack. This means that enemies with Evasion / Improved Evasion / good saving throws are more likely going to take half damage from Energy Missile, halving its effectiveness, while on Energy Ray, with a ranged touch attack, they take full. The downside to the Ray is needing to make the touch attack, or wasting the power points. Some feel, and justifiably so, that 1/2 is better than nothing. But, in the case of Improved Evasion, the best you can hope for is half (unless using cold - as you can see, the logistics of taking all the powers and permutations is pretty intense). The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group. The Energy / Damage portion of this power is explained in Myth6. The targetting powers portion of this power was clarified by the author, Bruce Cordell, in an email response. He stated that the power cannot target attended objects. However, his choice of wording and memory of the game rules left many individuals feeling he was mistaken about game mechanics and, as such, is still up for debate. The spirit of the power as stated by the author, however, is that it can nottarget attended / held objects, and would be a legitimate ruling on those grounds. Conclusion: You put a bunch of low-level targets VERY close together and then got surprised when an 8th level kineticist (a character specializing in dealing area damage) dealt a lot of area damage to them? By the way, you demonstrate as well that you and the player in question do not know the rules in question. Observe. 1) Energy Missile can only hit targets that are within 15 feet of EVERY OTHER target. This means that those five people had to exist within a 4x4 square or so. 2) Energy Missile costs 3 power points to initially manifest; as an 8th level character he can spend 5 more. With a DC of 23, even assuming a +5 Intelligence modifier, he'd need to spend 6 power points, which means that he was either Overchannelling (dealing damage to himself) or cheating. The damage confirms this -- 66 is beyond what 8d6 could do (an 8pp energy ray), and is even beyond 6d6 empowered. 3) You say "no magic resist". Psionics are subject to SR if they say so, and Energy Missile says it is. (Power Resistance and Spell Resistance are the same; if you used nontransparency rules then the fault is all you for not thinking it through.) 4) You go OMFG when he uses his racial ability to actually save his life. Did it bother you that he had to spend TWENTY POWER POINTS to do this, when an 8th level psion with a +5 Int mod (which assumes a 16 to start with a +2 headband) has only 72 total in a day? It's not like a dwarf needs to spend spell slots to use stonecunning (which is akin to what the elan does). In short, this is a knee-jerk reaction from someone who doesn't know what the game can actually do. For your benefit, we've compiled a few links for you. They're all in my sig -- the New DM/Player's Guide to Psionics, and the 3.5 Psionics FAQ. If you still have concerns after this, check out the Myth thread stickied at the top of the forum. AFTER you have read these resources, please come back.
AntiDjinn 04-09-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah, it is amazing how broken things get when someone is making up their own rules instead of using the ones published in the book. An 8th level psion manifesting Energy Missile can spend up to 8 points. If he has the Overchannel feat he can spend up to 10 points on a single manifestation (though he takes 3d8 damage unless he also has the Talented feat and expends his focus). If he spends 8 points then he gets 8d6. If he rolls all 6's (that will happen 1 time in 1,679,616) then he gets a result of 48. If he spends 10 points he gets 10d6. If he rolls all 6's (odds are 1 in 60,466,176) he gets a result of 60. Only if he was using one of the energy types that does +1 point per die, overchanned for +2 manifester levels and rolled all 6's for damage could he have gotten a result of 66 points. I really doubt this event occured. Sorry, but we see posts like this all the time: Someone hasn't read the rules or is making up their own rules then shows up here trying to claim the rules are broken.
Rusher 04-09-07, 01:51 PM	You didn't say if the player had manifested any powers before hand or if he had any metapsionic items. The damage - 66: The most an Energy Missle can do at 8th level is 8d6. He could get close if he had a metapsionic rod to Maximize the power. The Save - 23: The save should be augmented up by two. The Psion's Intelligence would have to be 28 10+2(lvl)+2 (augment)+9(int) (or +5 int if he has greater power penetration) The Damage - 42 then 2: Who knows what happened here. What power did he say negated 40 points? Unless he had Vigor pre-cast to give himself 40 extra (the most he could get) hit points for 8 minutes. This seems the most likely situation. Remember he can only spend power points equal to his level. 8. Right off the bat I would assume that he is not playing the class correctly, but without knowing his feats (3 max if human) and magic items there is really no way to help you out here.
SdEoXgY 04-09-07, 01:56 PM	ELANS • Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends
Bacris 04-09-07, 02:05 PM	Psionics - horribly broken when you don't read the rules. Of course, replace "psionics" with any other facet of D&D and it's still an accurate statement. Forgotten Realms uses Psionic-Magic Transparency, as defined in the XPH - it's in the Player's Guide to Faerun. So Drow SR would have been valid. Seriously - I suggest at least reading the "Psionics Overview" portion of the rules... rather than assuming the character, who seems to be doing something too good for an 8th level character, can do it.
Theremustbebalance 04-09-07, 02:45 PM	I started reading all your post. THank a lot for taking the time to reply but if it his possible I would like to reply to some of them. Firts : yes I din't have time to read completly the psionic book and the reason for that is simple: I don't have time to spend reading a book each time a PC would like to introdcu something new in the game, as most of you know we have to work sometime to pay for these book. Second: Yes I do realyse that this PC could be selective on rule he wish to obey like any PC given a pass since hes the only one reading the BOOK in question, but people that call trust hey ;) And finaly I'm not contesting anything In this book im just saying that from wath Ive seen the psion seem to powerfull for other character in the game that all. Now on a more personnal note,I would like to thank you all for reading It even tho my english his not that great but do not compare my english typing with my gaming experience.. Most of you have been A OK with that fact and I thank you again. I will update my first post soon with the rest of the adventure of my PC and the psion.. Stay tune:)
Tempest Stormwind 04-09-07, 02:56 PM	I started reading all your post. THank a lot for taking the time to reply but if it his possible I would like to reply to some of them. Where did we imply it was impossible to reply? It's a public forum; a reply is practically expected.Firts : yes I din't have time to read completly the psionic book and the reason for that is simple: I don't have time to spend reading a book each time a PC would like to introdcu something new in the game, as most of you know we have to work sometime to pay for these book.It's for this reason that we put together that New DM/Player's Guide (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=486266) I was talking about. Or the FAQ at the top of the forum.Second: Yes I do realyse that this PC could be selective on rule he wish to obey like any PC given a pass since hes the only one reading the BOOK in question, but people that call trust hey ;)Great, so the problem lies in the player, not in psionics.And finaly I'm not contesting anything In this book im just saying that from wath Ive seen the psion seem to powerfull for other character in the game that all.But you've already established that the player is cheating. I could say that my fighter can shoot fire out of his arse as a class feature and cite Heroes of Maltak, page 35, substitution level (note: Fictitious book) -- would that make the fighter overpowered, or would it just make me a lying, cheating munchkin? (Hint: the latter.) Talk to your player. That's the solution here.Now on a more personnal note,I would like to thank you all for reading It even tho my english his not that great but do not compare my english typing with my gaming experience.. Most of you have been A OK with that fact and I thank you again.I apologize for my tone, but not for the intent. You could at least use a spell checker.I will update my first post soon with the rest of the adventure of my PC and the psion.. Stay tune:)If there are more errors, and I suspect there are, we'd be happy to point them out.
AntiDjinn 04-09-07, 02:58 PM	And finaly I'm not contesting anything In this book im just saying that from wath Ive seen the psion seem to powerfull for other character in the game that all. Except you have never even seen a psion in play. You think you have one in your game, but what you really have is a player making up his own rules for a class he is calling "psion." What you describe does not fall under the rules for D&D 3.5 psionics. We can't help you with rules advice if you aren't even using the rules. If you want balance back then tell all the other players they don't have to follow the rules either. Or you can actually read any rules that you are going to allow.
Theremustbebalance 04-09-07, 03:50 PM	More interesting by the minute. I just said in my last post that He could Be cheating not saying that he his cheating. So please guy, I should give Im the benefit of the dout before crucifie him dont you think. And on the other note, I was not saying that the rules are broken or anything, the purpuse of this post was not to rewrite the : is the psionic overpowerful but basicly to point out a gaming life experience with the character that all, I wasent going to tell anyone to not play the class or to tell wizard the reprint the book but just to puit the rules in a gaming experience. Comon you guys. I do belive that some of you are taking this a little to personnal. take a deep breath a put yourself out of the : everyone think that psion are to powerfull for the game stance. more on that later:)
Tempest Stormwind 04-09-07, 03:59 PM	More interesting by the minute. I just said in my last post that He could Be cheating not saying that he his cheating. So please guy, I should give Im the benefit of the dout before crucifie him dont you think.Except there is no doubt. When rules exist, you can test them. What he has done demonstratably breaks the rules. Therefore, he is cheating -- intentionally or not is the only question left.And on the other note, I was not saying that the rules are broken or anything, the purpuse of this post was not to rewrite the : is the psionic overpowerful but basicly to point out a gaming life experience with the character that all, I wasent going to tell anyone to not play the class or to tell wizard the reprint the book but just to puit the rules in a gaming experience.And yet whenever the psion did something you wrote OMFG. Sure does wonders to say that you think it's fine.Comon you guys. I do belive that some of you are taking this a little to personnal. take a deep breath a put yourself out of the : everyone think that psion are to powerfull for the game stance.You put us in it with your reactionary post. Actually read what you've written instead of what you intended to write and you'll see.
Theremustbebalance 04-09-07, 04:26 PM	and then you only confirme my third point: You are taking personnaly but that ok. But dont worry I do find it more interesting that way.;) and on the last not yes I did put the infamous OMFG but that was just to put the action into perspective of the suprise that I was In while the game waz in session. I also could have said OMFG when the priest character did A triple roll of a 20 as is AOO on my boss figther with his bare hand but then again its just to point out impressment or suprised that all
Bacris 04-09-07, 04:39 PM	I take none of this personally :) However, you seem to want to give your player the benefit of the doubt when several of the posters in this thread know enough about psionics that they have published 3.5 psionic books. You have the people that have created some of the most-referenced psionics threads, such as the Myths thread and the New DM / Player's Guide thread and the 3.5 Psionic FAQ thread, posting that what your player is doing is cheating. Not might be cheating. Not maybe cheating. He's breaking the rules. Whether that is intentional or not, the fact of the matter is your player is not following the rules of the game, hence why your game is suffering balance problems. It is not a problem with the psionics system. It is a problem with the player's and your own lack of understanding and adhering to the rules of the system, not the system itself. Oh, and your player had to blow 20 power points (or the equivalent of a 10th level power) to reduce that damage. That's 1/3rd of his base daily power points. Seems reasonable to me since with 8 power points (vigor), he could have done the same thing. :)
Theremustbebalance 04-09-07, 06:19 PM	i do now have the layout of his feats to be able to make it to this amount of damage, it would be empowered power + priviled energy fire +metapower energie missile and the missile are fire also so it would come up to (5d6 +5 for the missile + 5 for privilege energie) x 1.5 for empowered feats at no extra point because of metapower considering level 5 character so his everything ok ????
Lycanthromancer 04-09-07, 06:26 PM	I see a problem right there. He was using material from Complete Psionic, THE worst-balanced and worst-edited book in the history of post-2nd edition D&D.
AntiDjinn 04-09-07, 06:38 PM	i do now have the layout of his feats to be able to make it to this amount of damage, it would be empowered power + priviled energy fire +metapower energie missile and the missile are fire also so it would come up to (5d6 +5 for the missile + 5 for privilege energie) x 1.5 for empowered feats at no extra point because of metapower considering level 5 character so his everything ok ???? If he rolled nothing but 6's on 5d6 (odds are 1 in 46,656 rolls that all 6 out of 6 dice will roll a 6) then even with +1 per dice for selecting fire and +1 for privileged energy, that is a max of 60 points. So, no, something is not right. Somebody is either cheating or not clear on addition and multiplication.
Slagger the Chuul 04-09-07, 06:44 PM	I see a problem right there. He was using material from Complete Psionic, THE worst-balanced and worst-edited book in the history of post-2nd edition D&D. Well, except Heroes of Maltak. :) The bit about chilli under ingested components is just a rip-off of the drunken master, anyway.
Bacris 04-09-07, 07:49 PM	So let's see 5th level psion - I thought he was 8th level? Feats at levels: 1, 1, 3, 5 Priveliged Energy assumed to be taken at 3rd+ due to prereqs Empower Power at any level Metapower at either 3rd+ 8pp Energy Missile + Empower Power + Fire Damage + Priveliged Energy (5d6 + 5 + 5 ) * 1.5 or (5d6+10)*1.5 Min - 22 Max - 60 Median - 41 So no, at 5th level, what he's trying to do doesn't work - even as tricked out as he is. However, what you basically have here is a character designed purely for maximum damage with fire-based powers, who has invested one of his 4 feats just to make fire powers better and another feat just to make energy missile better. And, he's giving you the wrong saving throw - fire is reflex, not fortitude. And he's telling you it isn't subject to Spell Resistance, which it is. And on top of that, he's using more power points than even you suggest he should be able to. And the DC would be 10 (base) + 2 (power level) + 3 (augmentation) + stat mod. Where, exactly, is that extra +8 coming from?
angellis_ater 04-10-07, 08:52 AM	I will assume an 8th level Psion (kineticist) with Metapower, Privileged Energy, Empower Power maxing this combo out with an CPsi version of Energy Missile (+2d6 damage = +1 DC). Base cost for EM: 3pp (3d6) Augment by 5 = +5d6 damage. Energy: Fire +8 damage Privileged Energy: +8 damage. Base damage dice x1.5 = 8x1.5 = 12d6 Total damage, 12d6+16, average damage 58, minimum damage 28, maximum damage 88. No, not at all impossible at 8th level, expending resources equal to a spell of 4½th level and expending his focus, which with the metapsionic feats equals a full spell level - so, essentially a. He simply optimised himself for dealing alot of fire damage. He also spent 3 feats just to set up this combo, being extremely specialised (fire AND energy missile). Considering that he's been using Complete Psionic, we must assume the CPsi errata for "Energy Missile", so a base DC of 10 +2 (lvl) + 4 (augmentation) leaves us with a basic save DC of 16. Raising his DC to 23 either requires a +7 Intelligence modifier (Int 24), or the use of yet ANOTHER psionic focus and Greater Psionic Endowment (a 4 feat investment: Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment) to bring his Intelligence down to a "manageable" Int 20. This means that even with a 66 damage, the Energy Missile should've been somewhere around a DC20 Reflex save and should've allowed for Spell Resistance. Conclusion: One way or another, your player is cheating.
Mad_Paradox 04-10-07, 12:54 PM	Hi I'm the the so called cheater, I'm here to clear up all this story First, The story that started this thread happen a year ago, so some of the information aren't accurate anymore, the caracter I'm sure wasn't 8th lvl he was more 10 - 11 , the number of damage dealt is clearly totaly random unless my DM secretly record every damage output I do, the terrible saving throw was made according the energy missile in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (no errata) + headband of intelect +6 and overchannel finaly it probably dealt in ice, since they were elves, for the fortitude save.(Those facts can hardly be verified no data were kept, it's only based on memory) Second, the feat build specialized in fire damage isn't the same caracter, he's 5th lvl (was) and follow all the rules, unless I'm wrong. Maybe I missed a few points but I'm sure some of you will bring them back to me...
Bacris 04-10-07, 01:29 PM	See, now we're getting somewhere :) Inaccurate stories are even better for misconceptions on balance! Complaints that a 10th-11th level character dealing 63 damage in an area effect are a bit silly :) An 11th level wizard using a simple Empowered Fireball would be dealing 15d6 of damage, or 52 damage on average, and still use fewer resources than the psion. yes, the save DC on XPH-energy missile is high, which is why Complete Psionic changed it. Personally, I never found it to be a real issue either way, so use whichever you want. But SR / PR are still interchangable unless you're using the variant rules, which even the books say can cause balance issues. :)
Tempest Stormwind 04-10-07, 01:47 PM	It's more telling that he registered this month strictly to post a story about psionics that is apparently a year old and full of half-remembered misinformation. All of his posts are in this thread. Sounds vaguely... trollish, hmmm?
Slagger the Chuul 04-10-07, 05:25 PM	It's more telling that he registered this month strictly to post a story about psionics that is apparently a year old and full of half-remembered misinformation. All of his posts are in this thread. Sounds vaguely... trollish, hmmm? You'd have to be some kind of ultra-rare ninja troll to sit on it for a year before you register and post about it. And if there are multiple posts, it's less likely that he registered just to misinform people with a single story about a player they've never met. Since it sounds like they're discussing a past problem, I would be interested to find out how psionics has worked for them more recently (if any psionic characters have been played recently), and if it's the possibility of a new psionic character entering the game that has sparked this discussion.