please delete [Archive] - Wizards Community

please delete [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
d0yen
11-27-07, 12:43 AM feel free to remove/relocate as appropriate
awaken_D_M_golem
11-28-07, 04:44 PM Epic Spells/Powers are the game.

Check out the mitigating factors in Epic "spell" design.
2*HD max d6 damage, is easily covered by a Vigor with one metapsionic.
Followers contributing "spells", are easily generated by Leadership or Thrallherd.
Longer "casting" times, are easily found via the Arcane version of Genesis or creating a save zone on The Far-Realms.
And then there's DC Zero.

Just meditate on it awhile, or "med"-itate.
The conclusion of the CO-board is that Epic Spells are broken (but good broken).

Otherwise, there's a feat in CPsi that makes 1st to 3rd levels powers be Double-able.
Have a Psicrystal, and PAO it into something better.
One of the feats lets you do Expanded Knowledge, but with powers of 9th level not on your list.
That takes care of any missing stuff.

PsyWars get TWO epic feats at 21st level. That's better than anything else.
If you have CPsi, and don't mind ...
the Divine Mind - it sucks out loud :D
http://www.insultcomic.com/
Divine Mind gets a free action Aura switch at 30th level.
Question:
How many free actions, can a free action switcher switch?
Answer:
All of them.

It's weirdly good stuff.

Have fun.
CrimsonDeath
11-28-07, 05:08 PM Divine Mind gets a free action Aura switch at 30th level.
Question:
How many free actions, can a free action switcher switch?
Answer:
All of them.

Okay, I didn't get around to asking the last time you mentioned this...

What good does it do to strobe your auras? The only time an aura matters is when it's up while you're taking an action. Strobing can only do two things I can think of:

1: Tailor your selection of auras to the current round of combat.
2: Have one set of auras active during your action, and a different set during someone else's action.

Neither of those things looks especially broken, or even exceptionally powerful for a level 30 character. Considering what the Divine Mind is capable of, I think i'd prefer a Bard 20/Sublime Chord 10.
awaken_D_M_golem
11-28-07, 05:24 PM "strobing"

Huh. Good description.
Yeah. The Auras can be switched via a Free action, not an immediate action.
Just one at a time.
Yep, I know, the Divine Mind sucks, but Free action switching, even one at a time, basically makes the Divine Mind interesting.

I don't have the book sitting in front of me, so these are barely educated guesses.
At level 30:
Attack - +7 to attack and damage
Defense - +7 to AC
3rd Basic - +X to Initiative, Listen and Spot
1st Mantle - +X to whatever
2nd Mantle - +X to whatever
3rd Mantle - +X to whatever
Auras from 3 feat stack - +X to whatever

DM says: "you aren't unconscious, so you get all of them and so does everyone else, m'cuz I ain't doing all the paperwork!"

Personally, I'd put a Knowledge check
{ ... exasperated voice : or something ... }
in place to determine which aura you want to switch.

"Sublime Chord"
C'mon CD, he's only just begun Epic.
You don't want to scar him for life, do ya? ;)
CrimsonDeath
11-28-07, 07:11 PM Interesting. In the Epic Divine Mind, it states "A divine mind's ability to wear more than one mantle simultaneously continues to improve." But then it starts talking about changing Mantles, and then later changing multiple mantles at once. Since each deity has only four mantles available, the ability to change two of them at once doesn't make any sense. Not to mention the fact that changing your mantles would wreak havoc with your powers known. So, I'll assume it was referring to auras and chalk it up to an editing error.

DM says: "you aren't unconscious, so you get all of them and so does everyone else, m'cuz I ain't doing all the paperwork!"

I don't know what kind of DM you have, but every DM I've played under expects the players to do their own paperwork. The DM has an entire world to run; the least each player can do is run his own character by himself.

Furthermore, any DM I've met would require a much more thorough explanation than the one you've provided before he'd look at a character with the ability to project three auras simultaneously and let him get the benefits of nine different auras all at the same time. When you switch auras, the new ones turn on and the old ones turn off. Yes, it's a free action, but it is an action, and it can't occur simultaneously with another action.

A more likely ruling: "Pick three; you have those three. Anytime during your turn, you can turn one of those off and turn a different one on, and you can do that as often as you like. But an aura has to be on when an action occurs for the aura to affect that action."
d0yen
11-29-07, 02:49 PM "Sublime Chord"
C'mon CD, he's only just begun Epic.
You don't want to scar him for life, do ya? ;) it seems that my group of players have been forging me to be epic compatible. Sublime Chord was one of the most fun builds i've made... using words of creation no less.

i know there are lots of rules that let you build lots of "good broken" but considering that there is an Epic DM - he wont allow anything that is un-reasonably broken.

With my group : this is not a game of "get one past the DM" this is just about what reasonable choices to plan for in epic play.
awaken_D_M_golem
11-29-07, 06:37 PM CD - just try pitting a Beholder against a party with a 30th level Divine Mind.
The Beholder would be advanced in some way.
The Divine Mind sucked for 28 of the previous 29 levels.

Beholder goes to use #1 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #2 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #3 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #4 eye ray on Player "2"
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #5 eye ray on Player 2
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #6 eye ray on Player 2
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Need a Knowledge check to figure out which Eye Ray it is the Beholder is using?
Switch

Hey I'm using my Shield
Switch

Hey I'm rolling for an AoO
Switch

Hey I'm Spotting an Invisible helper
Switch

etc ...
d0yen
11-29-07, 07:03 PM thanks for your help with my Nomad build.
i'll post what i come up with as i have more details.
Dracomortis
11-29-07, 07:11 PM CD - just try pitting a Beholder against a party with a 30th level Divine Mind.
The Beholder would be advanced in some way.
The Divine Mind sucked for 28 of the previous 29 levels.

Beholder goes to use #1 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #2 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #3 eye ray on Player 1
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #4 eye ray on Player "2"
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #5 eye ray on Player 2
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Beholder goes to use #6 eye ray on Player 2
Divine Mind says : Free Action switch

Need a Knowledge check to figure out which Eye Ray it is the Beholder is using?
Switch

Hey I'm using my Shield
Switch

Hey I'm rolling for an AoO
Switch

Hey I'm Spotting an Invisible helper
Switch

etc ...
You can only take a free action during your turn, not another creature's turn, which means whatever aura you have active at the end of your turn is the one you're stuck with at least until the beginning of your turn next round. So, yes, you could switch your aura as much as you want, but only during your turn (you could still use this to your advantage by, say, popping an aura to increase your attack bonus, make an attack, and then switch to something that increases your AC to help cover you until your next turn).
Tedronai
11-29-07, 07:27 PM And in addition to that inability to switch auras on another creature's action, most of the auras cap their bonuses pre-epic, meaning that items will likely provide a larger, non-overlapping bonus compared to a significant number of the (already limited) aura options. I suggest that if you do go down this road you pick up Fast Healing from one of your auras by choosing either a Fey (Feytouched template is a nice choice for this one, though Pixie is always an INTERESTING choice, if not necessarily GOOD) or Construct (Warforged is your best option here) race and taking the appropriate deity/mantle.
awaken_D_M_golem
12-01-07, 03:46 PM You can only take a free action during your turn, not another creature's turn,

That's a swift action.

Take a swift action at any time,
that's an immediate action.

Take a free action at any time,
that's a free action.

And in addition to that inability to switch auras on another creature's action

Ready a move action. (and another, and another ... )
This with the 14th level class ability.

Get a Hustle Link Hustle Twin, at will item.
Activate.
2 extra move actions this round.
4 extra move actions the next round.
Ardent does this slightly cheaper.

DisposableHero_ did a build off of my idea of this. He had the good sense to not use Divine Mind. ;)
Dracomortis
12-01-07, 04:19 PM That's a swift action.

Take a swift action at any time,
that's an immediate action.

Take a free action at any time,
that's a free action.
No, it's not - an immediate action is the only type of action you can take when it is not currently your turn. That is why, for example, it specifically states that you can take an immediate action when it isn't your turn even though it functions like a free action, or why speaking has a special note that it can be performed on other creature's turns even though it's a free action. Free action < swift action < immediate action.
CrimsonDeath
12-01-07, 05:49 PM Get a Hustle Link Hustle Twin, at will item.

Got a price on that? The closest I can think of in function is a Belt of Battle, which, for 12000gp, will give you one extra Move action up to three times per day, or a full round action once per day.

What you're proposing is roughly four extra move actions per round every round.

Note that the pricing guidelines in the DMG are only that: Guidelines. That's why you can't have a continuous Ring of True Strike for a thousand gold.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
d0yen 11-27-07, 12:43 AM	feel free to remove/relocate as appropriate
awaken_D_M_golem 11-28-07, 04:44 PM	Epic Spells/Powers are the game. Check out the mitigating factors in Epic "spell" design. 2*HD max d6 damage, is easily covered by a Vigor with one metapsionic. Followers contributing "spells", are easily generated by Leadership or Thrallherd. Longer "casting" times, are easily found via the Arcane version of Genesis or creating a save zone on The Far-Realms. And then there's DC Zero. Just meditate on it awhile, or "med"-itate. The conclusion of the CO-board is that Epic Spells are broken (but good broken). Otherwise, there's a feat in CPsi that makes 1st to 3rd levels powers be Double-able. Have a Psicrystal, and PAO it into something better. One of the feats lets you do Expanded Knowledge, but with powers of 9th level not on your list. That takes care of any missing stuff. PsyWars get TWO epic feats at 21st level. That's better than anything else. If you have CPsi, and don't mind ... the Divine Mind - it sucks out loud :D http://www.insultcomic.com/ Divine Mind gets a free action Aura switch at 30th level. Question: How many free actions, can a free action switcher switch? Answer: All of them. It's weirdly good stuff. Have fun.
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 05:08 PM	Divine Mind gets a free action Aura switch at 30th level. Question: How many free actions, can a free action switcher switch? Answer: All of them. Okay, I didn't get around to asking the last time you mentioned this... What good does it do to strobe your auras? The only time an aura matters is when it's up while you're taking an action. Strobing can only do two things I can think of: 1: Tailor your selection of auras to the current round of combat. 2: Have one set of auras active during your action, and a different set during someone else's action. Neither of those things looks especially broken, or even exceptionally powerful for a level 30 character. Considering what the Divine Mind is capable of, I think i'd prefer a Bard 20/Sublime Chord 10.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-28-07, 05:24 PM	"strobing" Huh. Good description. Yeah. The Auras can be switched via a Free action, not an immediate action. Just one at a time. Yep, I know, the Divine Mind sucks, but Free action switching, even one at a time, basically makes the Divine Mind interesting. I don't have the book sitting in front of me, so these are barely educated guesses. At level 30: Attack - +7 to attack and damage Defense - +7 to AC 3rd Basic - +X to Initiative, Listen and Spot 1st Mantle - +X to whatever 2nd Mantle - +X to whatever 3rd Mantle - +X to whatever Auras from 3 feat stack - +X to whatever DM says: "you aren't unconscious, so you get all of them and so does everyone else, m'cuz I ain't doing all the paperwork!" Personally, I'd put a Knowledge check { ... exasperated voice : or something ... } in place to determine which aura you want to switch. "Sublime Chord" C'mon CD, he's only just begun Epic. You don't want to scar him for life, do ya? ;)
CrimsonDeath 11-28-07, 07:11 PM	Interesting. In the Epic Divine Mind, it states "A divine mind's ability to wear more than one mantle simultaneously continues to improve." But then it starts talking about changing Mantles, and then later changing multiple mantles at once. Since each deity has only four mantles available, the ability to change two of them at once doesn't make any sense. Not to mention the fact that changing your mantles would wreak havoc with your powers known. So, I'll assume it was referring to auras and chalk it up to an editing error. DM says: "you aren't unconscious, so you get all of them and so does everyone else, m'cuz I ain't doing all the paperwork!" I don't know what kind of DM you have, but every DM I've played under expects the players to do their own paperwork. The DM has an entire world to run; the least each player can do is run his own character by himself. Furthermore, any DM I've met would require a much more thorough explanation than the one you've provided before he'd look at a character with the ability to project three auras simultaneously and let him get the benefits of nine different auras all at the same time. When you switch auras, the new ones turn on and the old ones turn off. Yes, it's a free action, but it is an action, and it can't occur simultaneously with another action. A more likely ruling: "Pick three; you have those three. Anytime during your turn, you can turn one of those off and turn a different one on, and you can do that as often as you like. But an aura has to be on when an action occurs for the aura to affect that action."
d0yen 11-29-07, 02:49 PM	"Sublime Chord" C'mon CD, he's only just begun Epic. You don't want to scar him for life, do ya? ;) it seems that my group of players have been forging me to be epic compatible. Sublime Chord was one of the most fun builds i've made... using words of creation no less. i know there are lots of rules that let you build lots of "good broken" but considering that there is an Epic DM - he wont allow anything that is un-reasonably broken. With my group : this is not a game of "get one past the DM" this is just about what reasonable choices to plan for in epic play.
awaken_D_M_golem 11-29-07, 06:37 PM	CD - just try pitting a Beholder against a party with a 30th level Divine Mind. The Beholder would be advanced in some way. The Divine Mind sucked for 28 of the previous 29 levels. Beholder goes to use #1 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #2 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #3 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #4 eye ray on Player "2" Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #5 eye ray on Player 2 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #6 eye ray on Player 2 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Need a Knowledge check to figure out which Eye Ray it is the Beholder is using? Switch Hey I'm using my Shield Switch Hey I'm rolling for an AoO Switch Hey I'm Spotting an Invisible helper Switch etc ...
d0yen 11-29-07, 07:03 PM	thanks for your help with my Nomad build. i'll post what i come up with as i have more details.
Dracomortis 11-29-07, 07:11 PM	CD - just try pitting a Beholder against a party with a 30th level Divine Mind. The Beholder would be advanced in some way. The Divine Mind sucked for 28 of the previous 29 levels. Beholder goes to use #1 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #2 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #3 eye ray on Player 1 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #4 eye ray on Player "2" Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #5 eye ray on Player 2 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Beholder goes to use #6 eye ray on Player 2 Divine Mind says : Free Action switch Need a Knowledge check to figure out which Eye Ray it is the Beholder is using? Switch Hey I'm using my Shield Switch Hey I'm rolling for an AoO Switch Hey I'm Spotting an Invisible helper Switch etc ... You can only take a free action during your turn, not another creature's turn, which means whatever aura you have active at the end of your turn is the one you're stuck with at least until the beginning of your turn next round. So, yes, you could switch your aura as much as you want, but only during your turn (you could still use this to your advantage by, say, popping an aura to increase your attack bonus, make an attack, and then switch to something that increases your AC to help cover you until your next turn).
Tedronai 11-29-07, 07:27 PM	And in addition to that inability to switch auras on another creature's action, most of the auras cap their bonuses pre-epic, meaning that items will likely provide a larger, non-overlapping bonus compared to a significant number of the (already limited) aura options. I suggest that if you do go down this road you pick up Fast Healing from one of your auras by choosing either a Fey (Feytouched template is a nice choice for this one, though Pixie is always an INTERESTING choice, if not necessarily GOOD) or Construct (Warforged is your best option here) race and taking the appropriate deity/mantle.
awaken_D_M_golem 12-01-07, 03:46 PM	You can only take a free action during your turn, not another creature's turn, That's a swift action. Take a swift action at any time, that's an immediate action. Take a free action at any time, that's a free action. And in addition to that inability to switch auras on another creature's action Ready a move action. (and another, and another ... ) This with the 14th level class ability. Get a Hustle Link Hustle Twin, at will item. Activate. 2 extra move actions this round. 4 extra move actions the next round. Ardent does this slightly cheaper. DisposableHero_ did a build off of my idea of this. He had the good sense to not use Divine Mind. ;)
Dracomortis 12-01-07, 04:19 PM	That's a swift action. Take a swift action at any time, that's an immediate action. Take a free action at any time, that's a free action. No, it's not - an immediate action is the only type of action you can take when it is not currently your turn. That is why, for example, it specifically states that you can take an immediate action when it isn't your turn even though it functions like a free action, or why speaking has a special note that it can be performed on other creature's turns even though it's a free action. Free action < swift action < immediate action.
CrimsonDeath 12-01-07, 05:49 PM	Get a Hustle Link Hustle Twin, at will item. Got a price on that? The closest I can think of in function is a Belt of Battle, which, for 12000gp, will give you one extra Move action up to three times per day, or a full round action once per day. What you're proposing is roughly four extra move actions per round every round. Note that the pricing guidelines in the DMG are only that: Guidelines. That's why you can't have a continuous Ring of True Strike for a thousand gold.