Powers General Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Powers General Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lamorake
12-06-07, 06:53 PM I would like to ask a few questions in regards to powers (I checked the FAQ before posting, didn't see anything specifically to what I have). I've been looking into Psionics for awhile now, but have just started to be able to play one in a campaign due to the longevity of the previous campaign!

1) Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one.

Question: Let's say I plan on using Independent Research (DM approved) to duplicate an existing power that is either from a Mantle list or different Discipline list... is this basically like using the feat Expanded Knowledge, but instead of using a feat you can do it by losing exp?

Question: Okay, I've successfully researched a power. I already have 5 first lvl powers, but I can't have 6 due to the restrictions (The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.) Do I basically choose a power to "forget" in place of the newly researched one? That seems the case, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Question: For an example, lets say I chose to research/duplicate the power Dimensional Hop (1st lvl power from the Freedom Mantle). I successfully do so. I'm a Psion, so I wouldn't typically get access to this power. Does anyone know if it would be a "straight across" 1st lvl power learned or would there be a level increase for it (such as you can know it as a 2nd lvl power due to the limited access)?

2) Expanded Knowledge Feat: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

Question: How does this fit in with the the question above, about powers being strictly limited? Does this feat bypass that and allow an actual extra power, or do you "forget" one from the level of power you have chosen?
Jaid
12-06-07, 08:19 PM research and expanded knowledge are slightly different from one another, in that expanded knowledge gives you a bonus power known slot as well as knowing the power, whereas research does not.

as far as mechanically how it works, by all appearances you must have a slot available to learn the power you research, so either you can research to add the power to your personal list and then learn it when you get a level-up, or you can (arguably) save a power known slot until needed, though naturally this shouldn't let you trade in a lower-level power known for a higher level one (i would only really allow you to not learn one if you specifically had a plan to research a power).

the powers learned from both of these methods will be of the original level, with no modifications to the power (although some powers function differently for certain types of psions, and you wouldn't gain the improved function of those powers). so if you learn the psychic warrior's version of evade burst, you get it as a lower-level power known (note: this is not explicitly spelled out, but that's how i'd rule it).

probably the simplest way to handle research, imo, is to just rule that the research adds the power to the class list, and then allow you to choose powers when you normally would. this would technically also allow you to research a power to be able to use powerstones of it, for example, but i can't really say i see that as being a huge problem personally.
The_Mess
12-06-07, 10:26 PM Research rules aren't really clear at all. Whether it replaces a known spell or gives you a new known one, whether you can "underlearn" by researching a psychic warrior/ardent version, etc., are all unanswered and will have to be DM calls.

For my personal answers, replacing a known power with research is the expensive way to do it, just take Psychic Reformation. It seems a bit cheap for a new power slot, but that appears to be the point. I would not permit a character to underlearn a power, if you have a version of the power on your list, you have to learn it at that level.
Lamorake
12-06-07, 11:14 PM First off, thank you for the replies!

Definitely sounds like there are some vagaries when dealing with the Independent Research section in the XPH. (Probably due to the fact it's an option, DM descretion deal.)

The main reason I would use Independent Research is learn a power that is not in my list (psion/wilder). From Jaid's viewpoint you would not "unlearn" a power, but rather research at the beginning of that level and basically add it to your power list.

Example: Upon reaching 3rd lvl, my Egoist Psion decides to research Energy Missile. It now become a part of his normal listing. He is able to choose 2 powers at this level and chooses: Energy Missile and Animal Affinity.

As far as researching a power already known but at a lower level from another class list, that would be a little sketchy. On one hand, you are losing exp to do this, but on the other hand, it's bypassing a fundamental class setup. Definitely more info on this process would have been nice!

From the Expanded Knowledge side, you can learn powers not on your class list, but it is an ADDED power, basically going above the normal known power limit.
hovnarr
12-07-07, 08:13 AM Good replies so far. There are basically three ways to alter your psionic repertoire from the 32 powers in 20 levels that the Psion table presents.

EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE
Pros: Gives more powers, can grab powers from anywhere. Good to use at low levels for your level 3 and level 5 feat, because you have few powers then and little XP and gold to spare.
Cons: Eats feats, can only be used to grab lower level powers.

RESEARCH
Pros: Very simple - you can ideally just pay XP and time to avoid the problem of not having access to all powers any time.
Cons: Subject to DM approval, costs precious XP, and also play balance. There is a reason a level 10 psychic warrior can't just pick Metamorphosis up etc. Also, there's ambiguity if it adds to powers known or replaces a slot you gain for levelling up.

PSYCHIC CHIRURGERY
Pros: You convert gold to powers known. As long as the chirurgeon knows it, is willing and you have gold, the RAW and RAI pretty much say you can do it.
Cons: Sort of subject to DM approval too, since he typically needs to provide the service. Perhaps a 21st level telepath with a floating epic feat to grab whatever 9th level power he is to bestow on you is hard to come by in the campaign? Oh, and it costs lots of gold, but you can so afford it a high levels (15+).

How do I do it? I just use EK feat at low levels, and if creating a higher level character I pay for chirurgery (because there are few items that interest me anyway, so I don't need lots of gold). As a DM, I would allow Research mostly for flavor - if the player wants to research a cool concept he has come up with. Not so that he can gain power X a few levels earlier for a minimal investment.
Jaid
12-09-07, 11:32 AM there is no ambiguity about whether research gives you a new power known slot. it doesn't.

also, for psychic chirurgery, either i'm remembering the 3.0 PHB or there's something about spells (and presumably powers) costing over 5k gp to purchase are the kind of spells that you need to go on a quest for to convince the caster to do it, basically. given the nature of psychic chirurgery and just what it is that you're asking, i'm inclined to say that's a very wise decision, assuming you're even going to allow that at all.
Sinfire Titan
12-09-07, 11:04 PM I would like to ask a few questions in regards to powers (I checked the FAQ before posting, didn't see anything specifically to what I have). I've been looking into Psionics for awhile now, but have just started to be able to play one in a campaign due to the longevity of the previous campaign!

1) Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one.

Question: Let's say I plan on using Independent Research (DM approved) to duplicate an existing power that is either from a Mantle list or different Discipline list... is this basically like using the feat Expanded Knowledge, but instead of using a feat you can do it by losing exp?
Yes.
Question: Okay, I've successfully researched a power. I already have 5 first lvl powers, but I can't have 6 due to the restrictions (The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.) Do I basically choose a power to "forget" in place of the newly researched one? That seems the case, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Next time you would learn a power, you learn the one you made.
Question: For an example, lets say I chose to research/duplicate the power Dimensional Hop (1st lvl power from the Freedom Mantle). I successfully do so. I'm a Psion, so I wouldn't typically get access to this power. Does anyone know if it would be a "straight across" 1st lvl power learned or would there be a level increase for it (such as you can know it as a 2nd lvl power due to the limited access)?
DM's call.
2) Expanded Knowledge Feat: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

Question: How does this fit in with the the question above, about powers being strictly limited? Does this feat bypass that and allow an actual extra power, or do you "forget" one from the level of power you have chosen?

Yes. Expanded knowledge gives you an additional Power Known, with litmited restrictions being mentioned in the feat itself.
DracoPhoenix
12-10-07, 03:38 AM Of course the broken option is Leadership + chirgery + reformation + thought bottle.

Use leadership to get a Telepath cohort
Ensure it has psi-reformation (if not, reform one of his last L9's for 50xp)
Thought bottle the "chirgen".
Have the Telepath dump all his known powers that you don't know into you.
Restore xp
Reform out as many as known powers on the cohort as possible, choosing new ones in order of desirability. Don't forget to change all the feats to expanded knowledge to bag the discipline & mantle ones too.
Restore xp
Rinse & repeat, hopefully xp grinding should be minimal.

Depending on how you're feeling, share all the powers back with the cohort. Though admittedly, probably best to use Thrallherd to ensure obedience. Using Leadership simply means you can kill the guy & reform out the feat.
hovnarr
12-10-07, 08:34 AM there is no ambiguity about whether research gives you a new power known slot. it doesn't.

Only if you assume that what applies to arcane casters also applies to psions. The RAW makes no mention of it. Lo and behold:

Independent Research
A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

There it is. If the check succeeds, you learn the power. Simple as that. Doesn't say it has to be done as part of a level up process when you select new powers, nor that it would replace an existing power already known (of the same level). You can do it any time and learn the power, if you succeed. And since you can take 10 on the check, you will succeed.

Of course, there are various ways to house rule this, and some claim it's not RAI but I've never seen anything to support it. But meh, I just ignore the research option all together when building characters since you never know if a DM would approve of it all together.
DracoPhoenix
12-10-07, 10:37 AM Only if you assume that what applies to arcane casters also applies to psions. The RAW makes no mention of it. Lo and behold:

There it is. If the check succeeds, you learn the power. Simple as that. Doesn't say it has to be done as part of a level up process when you select new powers, nor that it would replace an existing power already known (of the same level). You can do it any time and learn the power, if you succeed. And since you can take 10 on the check, you will succeed.

Of course, there are various ways to house rule this, and some claim it's not RAI but I've never seen anything to support it. But meh, I just ignore the research option all together when building characters since you never know if a DM would approve of it all together.

I >think< the problem comes in at the powers known stage of the class.

For example, you research a power giving you PK+1 powers, when you level up your max PK becomes PK+2. This means you can only learn 1 new power (PK+2 - PK+1 = 1) as there is no qualifier that states PK applies only to powers learnt at level up. (Like the Wizards freebies).

This is further compounded by the fact that sorcs, being similar to psions in terms of spell / power availability also suffer from learning restrictions.
hovnarr
12-10-07, 11:19 AM Sure, that seems like a reasonable interpretation to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lamorake 12-06-07, 06:53 PM	I would like to ask a few questions in regards to powers (I checked the FAQ before posting, didn't see anything specifically to what I have). I've been looking into Psionics for awhile now, but have just started to be able to play one in a campaign due to the longevity of the previous campaign! 1) Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. Question: Let's say I plan on using Independent Research (DM approved) to duplicate an existing power that is either from a Mantle list or different Discipline list... is this basically like using the feat Expanded Knowledge, but instead of using a feat you can do it by losing exp? Question: Okay, I've successfully researched a power. I already have 5 first lvl powers, but I can't have 6 due to the restrictions (The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.) Do I basically choose a power to "forget" in place of the newly researched one? That seems the case, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Question: For an example, lets say I chose to research/duplicate the power Dimensional Hop (1st lvl power from the Freedom Mantle). I successfully do so. I'm a Psion, so I wouldn't typically get access to this power. Does anyone know if it would be a "straight across" 1st lvl power learned or would there be a level increase for it (such as you can know it as a 2nd lvl power due to the limited access)? 2) Expanded Knowledge Feat: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. Question: How does this fit in with the the question above, about powers being strictly limited? Does this feat bypass that and allow an actual extra power, or do you "forget" one from the level of power you have chosen?
Jaid 12-06-07, 08:19 PM	research and expanded knowledge are slightly different from one another, in that expanded knowledge gives you a bonus power known slot as well as knowing the power, whereas research does not. as far as mechanically how it works, by all appearances you must have a slot available to learn the power you research, so either you can research to add the power to your personal list and then learn it when you get a level-up, or you can (arguably) save a power known slot until needed, though naturally this shouldn't let you trade in a lower-level power known for a higher level one (i would only really allow you to not learn one if you specifically had a plan to research a power). the powers learned from both of these methods will be of the original level, with no modifications to the power (although some powers function differently for certain types of psions, and you wouldn't gain the improved function of those powers). so if you learn the psychic warrior's version of evade burst, you get it as a lower-level power known (note: this is not explicitly spelled out, but that's how i'd rule it). probably the simplest way to handle research, imo, is to just rule that the research adds the power to the class list, and then allow you to choose powers when you normally would. this would technically also allow you to research a power to be able to use powerstones of it, for example, but i can't really say i see that as being a huge problem personally.
The_Mess 12-06-07, 10:26 PM	Research rules aren't really clear at all. Whether it replaces a known spell or gives you a new known one, whether you can "underlearn" by researching a psychic warrior/ardent version, etc., are all unanswered and will have to be DM calls. For my personal answers, replacing a known power with research is the expensive way to do it, just take Psychic Reformation. It seems a bit cheap for a new power slot, but that appears to be the point. I would not permit a character to underlearn a power, if you have a version of the power on your list, you have to learn it at that level.
Lamorake 12-06-07, 11:14 PM	First off, thank you for the replies! Definitely sounds like there are some vagaries when dealing with the Independent Research section in the XPH. (Probably due to the fact it's an option, DM descretion deal.) The main reason I would use Independent Research is learn a power that is not in my list (psion/wilder). From Jaid's viewpoint you would not "unlearn" a power, but rather research at the beginning of that level and basically add it to your power list. Example: Upon reaching 3rd lvl, my Egoist Psion decides to research Energy Missile. It now become a part of his normal listing. He is able to choose 2 powers at this level and chooses: Energy Missile and Animal Affinity. As far as researching a power already known but at a lower level from another class list, that would be a little sketchy. On one hand, you are losing exp to do this, but on the other hand, it's bypassing a fundamental class setup. Definitely more info on this process would have been nice! From the Expanded Knowledge side, you can learn powers not on your class list, but it is an ADDED power, basically going above the normal known power limit.
hovnarr 12-07-07, 08:13 AM	Good replies so far. There are basically three ways to alter your psionic repertoire from the 32 powers in 20 levels that the Psion table presents. EXPANDED KNOWLEDGE Pros: Gives more powers, can grab powers from anywhere. Good to use at low levels for your level 3 and level 5 feat, because you have few powers then and little XP and gold to spare. Cons: Eats feats, can only be used to grab lower level powers. RESEARCH Pros: Very simple - you can ideally just pay XP and time to avoid the problem of not having access to all powers any time. Cons: Subject to DM approval, costs precious XP, and also play balance. There is a reason a level 10 psychic warrior can't just pick Metamorphosis up etc. Also, there's ambiguity if it adds to powers known or replaces a slot you gain for levelling up. PSYCHIC CHIRURGERY Pros: You convert gold to powers known. As long as the chirurgeon knows it, is willing and you have gold, the RAW and RAI pretty much say you can do it. Cons: Sort of subject to DM approval too, since he typically needs to provide the service. Perhaps a 21st level telepath with a floating epic feat to grab whatever 9th level power he is to bestow on you is hard to come by in the campaign? Oh, and it costs lots of gold, but you can so afford it a high levels (15+). How do I do it? I just use EK feat at low levels, and if creating a higher level character I pay for chirurgery (because there are few items that interest me anyway, so I don't need lots of gold). As a DM, I would allow Research mostly for flavor - if the player wants to research a cool concept he has come up with. Not so that he can gain power X a few levels earlier for a minimal investment.
Jaid 12-09-07, 11:32 AM	there is no ambiguity about whether research gives you a new power known slot. it doesn't. also, for psychic chirurgery, either i'm remembering the 3.0 PHB or there's something about spells (and presumably powers) costing over 5k gp to purchase are the kind of spells that you need to go on a quest for to convince the caster to do it, basically. given the nature of psychic chirurgery and just what it is that you're asking, i'm inclined to say that's a very wise decision, assuming you're even going to allow that at all.
Sinfire Titan 12-09-07, 11:04 PM	I would like to ask a few questions in regards to powers (I checked the FAQ before posting, didn't see anything specifically to what I have). I've been looking into Psionics for awhile now, but have just started to be able to play one in a campaign due to the longevity of the previous campaign! 1) Independent Research: A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. Question: Let's say I plan on using Independent Research (DM approved) to duplicate an existing power that is either from a Mantle list or different Discipline list... is this basically like using the feat Expanded Knowledge, but instead of using a feat you can do it by losing exp? Yes. Question: Okay, I've successfully researched a power. I already have 5 first lvl powers, but I can't have 6 due to the restrictions (The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.) Do I basically choose a power to "forget" in place of the newly researched one? That seems the case, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Next time you would learn a power, you learn the one you made. Question: For an example, lets say I chose to research/duplicate the power Dimensional Hop (1st lvl power from the Freedom Mantle). I successfully do so. I'm a Psion, so I wouldn't typically get access to this power. Does anyone know if it would be a "straight across" 1st lvl power learned or would there be a level increase for it (such as you can know it as a 2nd lvl power due to the limited access)? DM's call. 2) Expanded Knowledge Feat: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list. Question: How does this fit in with the the question above, about powers being strictly limited? Does this feat bypass that and allow an actual extra power, or do you "forget" one from the level of power you have chosen? Yes. Expanded knowledge gives you an additional Power Known, with litmited restrictions being mentioned in the feat itself.
DracoPhoenix 12-10-07, 03:38 AM	Of course the broken option is Leadership + chirgery + reformation + thought bottle. Use leadership to get a Telepath cohort Ensure it has psi-reformation (if not, reform one of his last L9's for 50xp) Thought bottle the "chirgen". Have the Telepath dump all his known powers that you don't know into you. Restore xp Reform out as many as known powers on the cohort as possible, choosing new ones in order of desirability. Don't forget to change all the feats to expanded knowledge to bag the discipline & mantle ones too. Restore xp Rinse & repeat, hopefully xp grinding should be minimal. Depending on how you're feeling, share all the powers back with the cohort. Though admittedly, probably best to use Thrallherd to ensure obedience. Using Leadership simply means you can kill the guy & reform out the feat.
hovnarr 12-10-07, 08:34 AM	there is no ambiguity about whether research gives you a new power known slot. it doesn't. Only if you assume that what applies to arcane casters also applies to psions. The RAW makes no mention of it. Lo and behold: Independent Research A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. There it is. If the check succeeds, you learn the power. Simple as that. Doesn't say it has to be done as part of a level up process when you select new powers, nor that it would replace an existing power already known (of the same level). You can do it any time and learn the power, if you succeed. And since you can take 10 on the check, you will succeed. Of course, there are various ways to house rule this, and some claim it's not RAI but I've never seen anything to support it. But meh, I just ignore the research option all together when building characters since you never know if a DM would approve of it all together.
DracoPhoenix 12-10-07, 10:37 AM	Only if you assume that what applies to arcane casters also applies to psions. The RAW makes no mention of it. Lo and behold: There it is. If the check succeeds, you learn the power. Simple as that. Doesn't say it has to be done as part of a level up process when you select new powers, nor that it would replace an existing power already known (of the same level). You can do it any time and learn the power, if you succeed. And since you can take 10 on the check, you will succeed. Of course, there are various ways to house rule this, and some claim it's not RAI but I've never seen anything to support it. But meh, I just ignore the research option all together when building characters since you never know if a DM would approve of it all together. I >think< the problem comes in at the powers known stage of the class. For example, you research a power giving you PK+1 powers, when you level up your max PK becomes PK+2. This means you can only learn 1 new power (PK+2 - PK+1 = 1) as there is no qualifier that states PK applies only to powers learnt at level up. (Like the Wizards freebies). This is further compounded by the fact that sorcs, being similar to psions in terms of spell / power availability also suffer from learning restrictions.
hovnarr 12-10-07, 11:19 AM	Sure, that seems like a reasonable interpretation to me.