PP loss from negative levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

PP loss from negative levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fleem
06-21-07, 10:46 AM How do you handle PP loss for negative levels? Do you calculate the cost of manifesting the highest level power available at the lost level, then subtract that many power points? For example, if a 7th level psion suffers two negative levels, does she lose 7+5=12 PPs, as if she had cast a 4th and a 3rd level powers?
InkBlot
06-21-07, 11:01 AM You're close, but no cigar.

When you take a negative level, you lose a number of PP equal to your manifester level, and then your manifester level is reduced by 1. You do it in that order, and you repeat the loss for each negative level you take.

To use your example, a 7th level psion taking 2 negative levels would lose 2 manifester levels and 13 power points. The first negative level takes away 7pp, and the second negative level takes away 6pp.

I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere in The Expanded Psionics Handbook, but I'm reading it from a nice easy sidebar on p100 of Complete Psionics.
SlanderPanic
06-21-07, 11:08 AM The effects of negative levels on psionic characters are actually only in Complete Psionic, to my knowledge.
Racinante
06-21-07, 11:23 AM You're close, but no cigar.

When you take a negative level, you lose a number of PP equal to your manifester level, and then your manifester level is reduced by 1. You do it in that order, and you repeat the loss for each negative level you take.

To use your example, a 7th level psion taking 2 negative levels would lose 2 manifester levels and 13 power points. The first negative level takes away 7pp, and the second negative level takes away 6pp.

I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere in The Expanded Psionics Handbook, but I'm reading it from a nice easy sidebar on p100 of Complete Psionics.

Sorry, Inkblot, but you missed this one.
Negative Levels: Psionic characters can gain negative levels just like members of other character classes. A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon the negative level is removed, providing the manifester is capable of using it at that time. Lost power points also return.
InkBlot
06-21-07, 11:31 AM That conflicts with the entry in Complete Psionics. Do you have a page number reference for it?
AntiDjinn
06-21-07, 11:37 AM The XPH rules for negative levels are on page 121, covered in the text of Mind Wipe. It appears from the wording that the power bestows two negative levels instantaneously, not one and then another. So the power point loss should be the same for both of them, whichever total is used. Multiple manifestations, of course, are cumulative.
crizhII
06-21-07, 11:54 AM The XPH rules for negative levels are on page 121, covered in the text of Mind Wipe.

Aha! I couldn't find that for love nor money this morning...

Found it in CPsi, but naturallly didn't trust it, but I knew I'd read it in the EPH somewhere.

Of course CPsi says something different, shock, but I think it evens out if you gain even numbers of negative levels.
Racinante
06-21-07, 12:38 PM That conflicts with the entry in Complete Psionics. Do you have a page number reference for it?

Page 68.
InkBlot
06-21-07, 12:52 PM It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now.

Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray.
Racinante
06-21-07, 01:03 PM It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now.

Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray.

Actually, the XPH negative levels also reduce your manifester level. Only noted in the above text were those specific impacts to psions that was not covered in the original definition of negative level. Part of that definition is -1 effective level.
Fleem
06-21-07, 01:18 PM It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now.

Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray.

I think the standard text on negative levels (-1 effective level) would reduce your manifester level and max PPs per manifestation in either case.

Thanks for the answers, all. I'm not using CPsi, and I hadn't thought to dig through power descriptions to find general rules.
crizhII
06-21-07, 03:01 PM and I hadn't thought to dig through power descriptions to find general rules.

LOL.

That's what I love about Psionics. The perfection, the beautiful symmetry, everything exactly the way it should be with common sense, clear power descriptions and game balance for all...
AntiDjinn
06-21-07, 11:02 PM If they were going to try to re-state or clarify the rules for negative levels in Comp Psi, you would think they would have taken the opportunity to note whether or not the wilder nerf was intended.

It has been noted by many a wilder fan that negative levels hurt them more than the typical manifester. A character looses one power per negative level, but a wilder only gains a power every two levels. So a 20th level wilder with 11 negative levels applied has a ML of 9 (and can still wild surge for +6 because it is based on character levels of wilder, not ML) but knows zero powers (unless he has some from Expanded Knowledge). So if you are fighting a wilder, hitting him with a few negative levels is always a good idea: He will need to use his major class feature (and risk enervation) just to dig out of a hole instead of getting ahead, and he knows so few powers that knocking out a few greatly reduces his options. At least a few of the players in my group feel that a negative level should never take away more than your character levels actually give you.

The divine mind is even worse off, his ML is already class level -4 and he knows a scant handful of powers. If there are ever any divine mind fans, this may become an issue.

At the other end of the spectrum, erudites suffer a bit less from negative levels. Only ML and power point loss really hurts. Loosing access to a single power of your highest level know isn't a big deal when you know dozens of powers of each level. The chance that a randomly determined power is your favorite is pretty low, so you don't worry until your ML dips to the point where you can't use any powers of that level. Your unique powers per day are unaffected; they progress by class level, not ML. A 12th level erudite who has taken 4 negative levels manifests at level 8, has access to all but one of his 4th level powers, and can still use up to 7 different powers that day. DMs who feel this is unfair may have negative levels also affect UP/D, but that is not the RAW.
CrimsonDeath
06-22-07, 12:38 PM The negative level is one of the most devastating debuffs in the game. You mentioned that Wilders get hosed on powers known. Note that every negative level gives you -1 on all saves, while even the best save progression only increases by +1 every other level (and the worst is +1 every three levels). Each negative level also gives you -1 on all skill checks, regardless of how many ranks you have and even if you're untrained, as well was -1 on attack rolls, regardless of whether you have full, 3/4, or half BAB. Multiclass spellcaster/manifesters are especially hosed, since every negative level gets rid of a prepared spell (or spell known + spell slot) and a power known + PP, even if you're not in a dual-progression class. Oh, and let's not forget that receiving enough negative levels can kill you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fleem 06-21-07, 10:46 AM	How do you handle PP loss for negative levels? Do you calculate the cost of manifesting the highest level power available at the lost level, then subtract that many power points? For example, if a 7th level psion suffers two negative levels, does she lose 7+5=12 PPs, as if she had cast a 4th and a 3rd level powers?
InkBlot 06-21-07, 11:01 AM	You're close, but no cigar. When you take a negative level, you lose a number of PP equal to your manifester level, and then your manifester level is reduced by 1. You do it in that order, and you repeat the loss for each negative level you take. To use your example, a 7th level psion taking 2 negative levels would lose 2 manifester levels and 13 power points. The first negative level takes away 7pp, and the second negative level takes away 6pp. I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere in The Expanded Psionics Handbook, but I'm reading it from a nice easy sidebar on p100 of Complete Psionics.
SlanderPanic 06-21-07, 11:08 AM	The effects of negative levels on psionic characters are actually only in Complete Psionic, to my knowledge.
Racinante 06-21-07, 11:23 AM	You're close, but no cigar. When you take a negative level, you lose a number of PP equal to your manifester level, and then your manifester level is reduced by 1. You do it in that order, and you repeat the loss for each negative level you take. To use your example, a 7th level psion taking 2 negative levels would lose 2 manifester levels and 13 power points. The first negative level takes away 7pp, and the second negative level takes away 6pp. I'm pretty sure this is covered somewhere in The Expanded Psionics Handbook, but I'm reading it from a nice easy sidebar on p100 of Complete Psionics. Sorry, Inkblot, but you missed this one. Negative Levels: Psionic characters can gain negative levels just like members of other character classes. A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon the negative level is removed, providing the manifester is capable of using it at that time. Lost power points also return.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 11:31 AM	That conflicts with the entry in Complete Psionics. Do you have a page number reference for it?
AntiDjinn 06-21-07, 11:37 AM	The XPH rules for negative levels are on page 121, covered in the text of Mind Wipe. It appears from the wording that the power bestows two negative levels instantaneously, not one and then another. So the power point loss should be the same for both of them, whichever total is used. Multiple manifestations, of course, are cumulative.
crizhII 06-21-07, 11:54 AM	The XPH rules for negative levels are on page 121, covered in the text of Mind Wipe. Aha! I couldn't find that for love nor money this morning... Found it in CPsi, but naturallly didn't trust it, but I knew I'd read it in the EPH somewhere. Of course CPsi says something different, shock, but I think it evens out if you gain even numbers of negative levels.
Racinante 06-21-07, 12:38 PM	That conflicts with the entry in Complete Psionics. Do you have a page number reference for it? Page 68.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 12:52 PM	It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now. Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray.
Racinante 06-21-07, 01:03 PM	It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now. Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray. Actually, the XPH negative levels also reduce your manifester level. Only noted in the above text were those specific impacts to psions that was not covered in the original definition of negative level. Part of that definition is -1 effective level.
Fleem 06-21-07, 01:18 PM	It's very bizzare that they published competing rules for this. That's Complete Psionics for you. Well, the OP's question has been answered rather thoroughly now. Which rules do you guy's prefer? The XPH original or ComPsi's extra crispy? Personally, I like ComPsi's version better. To me it makes sense that negative levels would reduce your manifester level, especially since augmentation means the difference between ray of frost and polar ray. I think the standard text on negative levels (-1 effective level) would reduce your manifester level and max PPs per manifestation in either case. Thanks for the answers, all. I'm not using CPsi, and I hadn't thought to dig through power descriptions to find general rules.
crizhII 06-21-07, 03:01 PM	and I hadn't thought to dig through power descriptions to find general rules. LOL. That's what I love about Psionics. The perfection, the beautiful symmetry, everything exactly the way it should be with common sense, clear power descriptions and game balance for all...
AntiDjinn 06-21-07, 11:02 PM	If they were going to try to re-state or clarify the rules for negative levels in Comp Psi, you would think they would have taken the opportunity to note whether or not the wilder nerf was intended. It has been noted by many a wilder fan that negative levels hurt them more than the typical manifester. A character looses one power per negative level, but a wilder only gains a power every two levels. So a 20th level wilder with 11 negative levels applied has a ML of 9 (and can still wild surge for +6 because it is based on character levels of wilder, not ML) but knows zero powers (unless he has some from Expanded Knowledge). So if you are fighting a wilder, hitting him with a few negative levels is always a good idea: He will need to use his major class feature (and risk enervation) just to dig out of a hole instead of getting ahead, and he knows so few powers that knocking out a few greatly reduces his options. At least a few of the players in my group feel that a negative level should never take away more than your character levels actually give you. The divine mind is even worse off, his ML is already class level -4 and he knows a scant handful of powers. If there are ever any divine mind fans, this may become an issue. At the other end of the spectrum, erudites suffer a bit less from negative levels. Only ML and power point loss really hurts. Loosing access to a single power of your highest level know isn't a big deal when you know dozens of powers of each level. The chance that a randomly determined power is your favorite is pretty low, so you don't worry until your ML dips to the point where you can't use any powers of that level. Your unique powers per day are unaffected; they progress by class level, not ML. A 12th level erudite who has taken 4 negative levels manifests at level 8, has access to all but one of his 4th level powers, and can still use up to 7 different powers that day. DMs who feel this is unfair may have negative levels also affect UP/D, but that is not the RAW.
CrimsonDeath 06-22-07, 12:38 PM	The negative level is one of the most devastating debuffs in the game. You mentioned that Wilders get hosed on powers known. Note that every negative level gives you -1 on all saves, while even the best save progression only increases by +1 every other level (and the worst is +1 every three levels). Each negative level also gives you -1 on all skill checks, regardless of how many ranks you have and even if you're untrained, as well was -1 on attack rolls, regardless of whether you have full, 3/4, or half BAB. Multiclass spellcaster/manifesters are especially hosed, since every negative level gets rid of a prepared spell (or spell known + spell slot) and a power known + PP, even if you're not in a dual-progression class. Oh, and let's not forget that receiving enough negative levels can kill you.