Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yrtalien 03-01-07, 01:30 AM	OK, I must be reading this wrong. I read it and get that a person functions at an ML +4 his psi class lvl... with an upper limit of this "bonus ML being his HD. So that would mean it was absolutely no use to a straight Psion... but if you multi-class this is a NICE Feat... too nice? I'm thinking of bringing it up with my DM but wanted to get a feel for how ppl on these boards felt about it... first... well that AND if I am misunderstanding it someone here is bound to point it out and then I only look stupid to ppl who will probably never meet me :) So how's the feeling on this feat go? Thank you in advance for any attempts to help me.
guesswhat12321 03-01-07, 02:11 AM	All this really does is let you use your HD for your PP cap and manifester level checks and the like, it does not how ever give you any extra PP or powers or increase the level of powers allowed to be known. Though it is a really nice feat to have for your Wizard/Psion combo you got going on (Look into Cerebramancer)
runestar 03-01-07, 02:36 AM	Actually, it would grant you bonus PP, since the formula for extra PP is directly based off manifestor lv.:)
calronmoonflower 03-01-07, 02:51 AM	Actually, it would grant you bonus PP, since the formula for extra PP is directly based off manifestor lv.:) Acoding to page 18 of the Expanded Psionic Handbook bonus power points are based on class level and your maniesting score. Its both in the text and on the chart.
yrtalien 03-01-07, 03:06 AM	[snip]...it does not how ever give you any extra PP or powers or increase the level of powers allowed to be known. Though it is a really nice feat to have for your Wizard/Psion combo you got going on (Look into Cerebramancer) Looking at it that way it's not near so bad... But now I'm confused about the bonus PP part Originally Posted by runestar Actually, it would grant you bonus PP, since the formula for extra PP is directly based off manifestor lv. Acoding to page 18 of the Expanded Psionic Handbook bonus power points are based on class level and your maniesting score. Its both in the text and on the chart. Actually from what I see both arguments are supported. The chart clearly says Class level but the direct formula that explains how the chart was created says "...equal to your key ability modifier X your manifester level X 1/2". So if I'm a 5th lvl Psion/ 5th lvl Wizard (I wish.. I'm so weak) with an 18 Int and this feat do I have 35 PPs or 43 PPs?
Tsuul 03-01-07, 03:07 AM	So that would mean it was absolutely no use to a straight Psion... but if you multi-class this is a NICE Feat... too nice? Correct and ... it's fine. Spell casters had a feat like this for awhile now.
yrtalien 03-01-07, 03:10 AM	Correct and ... it's fine. Spell casters had a feat like this for awhile now. "They do?" Says the guy playing a Psion/Wizard? Where is it and what's it called? :)
JulesCARV 03-01-07, 03:25 AM	It's called Practiced Spellcaster. It's found in Complete Arcane and Complete Divine.
calronmoonflower 03-01-07, 04:53 AM	Actually from what I see both arguments are supported. The chart clearly says Class level but the direct formula that explains how the chart was created says "...equal to your key ability modifier X your manifester level X 1/2". :eek: RAW says text overides the chart (so you would gain extra power points). That would make Practiced Manifester overpowered. This is the second time that I've double checked something and got it wroung. At least this time I can use the chart as an explaination.
Bacris 03-01-07, 07:11 AM	It is in no way overpowered simply because you get bonus PP. Consider that the caster version gets free scaling on their spells - so they get up to 4d6 bonus damage on their spells for free. If the psion gets 30 bonus pp (that's if you're 16th level with a 40 INT, btw, so very likely you'll be getting much less than that), he still has to pay for all his augmentation.
InkBlot 03-01-07, 12:54 PM	Practiced Manifester says "this feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known." Since "the number of times a psion can manifest powers in a day is limited only by his daily power points," the feat can't increase your power point pool. I don't doubt that this rule is a result of a Practiced Manifester being a simple find/replace job of Practiced Spellcaster, but it's the RAW.
Scion of Coldshard 03-01-07, 01:42 PM	Powers per day would seem to be referencing the erudite types while powers known seems to be referencing the psion types.
Red12 03-01-07, 08:35 PM	No, I wouldn't concider it overpowered. Especially concidering that it is one of about 7 feats you get. My group had been playing with it when somebody first saw practiced spellcaster, and then converted it. It's a nice feat, but not super-stupendous.
Kiklio 03-01-07, 10:05 PM	I'm suprised no one mentioned the ardent, so I'll bring it up. The ardent's maximum power level known is based on its ML, so a multiclassed ardent with Practiced Manifester does not slow down its power progression in gaining additonal ardent levels. This makes the ardent->cleric->psychic theurge (probably) the best straight theurgic combination. Definitely an enviable tank.
AntiDjinn 03-02-07, 03:46 AM	Practiced manifester can be much more powerful than practiced spellcaster if you are aware of the differences in the mechanics a select powers that maximize your advantages. The key thing to look at is the augmentation options for a given power. Select powers with augmentations that alter the scope of the power, rather than just increase its damage. For example, some augmentations increase your target selection options. Select powers with augmentations that increase the DC of the power (something that doesn't come with free scaling for spells). Select powers with augmentations that alter the type of action used to manifest the power. Examples: Compare Wizard 1/Figher 4 with practiced spellcaster, to Telepath 1/Psychic Warrior 4 with practiced manifester applied to his psion class(selecting another manifesting class means you have a single pool of points to use with all your manifesting -- an option the wizard doesn't have even if his second class has spell slots). When the wizard casts Mage Armor it lasts 5 hours and gives him +4 to AC. When the telepath manifests Inertial Armor for 1 point it lasts 5 hours and gives him +4 to AC. The telepath can choose to spend up to 5 points manifesting Inertial Armor (same cost as a 3rd level power) to get +6 AC for the same 5 hours. The wizard doesn't have this option; to get +6 AC he needs Greater Mage Armor, which is a 3rd level spell and he doesn't have third level slots. Why do you use Inertial or Mage Armor? To improve your AC. Who has the option for a better AC for his standard action? When the wizard casts Charm Person he can affect one humanoid for up to 5 hours. The Will save DC is that of a first level power. If he needs to charm a fey, giant, monstrous humanoid, aberration, or whatever, then he is out of luck because he doesn't have access to Charm Monster. When the telepath manifests Charm for 1 point he gets exactly what the wizard gets. If he chooses to spend 5 points, the save DC increases by +2 (effectively the save of a 3rd level power) an option not available to the wizard at any price (even if he knows Heighten Spell, he lacks higher level spell slots). He could opt to increase his target selection options to effectively duplicate Charm Monster, or he could make the power last 5 days against a single humanoid target. What does the mage's free scaling get him here? Sure, there is a flip side: The wizard can use a first level slot to throw Magic Missile and he will get 3 missiles due to his free scaling. The telepath can manifest Crystal Shard for 1 point and will only get 1d6; if he wants 2-5 d6 he has to buy more dice with more points. In that case, it is a wizard who knows how spells work using practiced spellcaster effectively, vs. a psion who isn't optimized for practiced manifester. If you know the system, you can build better than that.
runestar 03-02-07, 03:48 AM	I concur that it is probably just a result of sloppy copy-and-pasting from complete arcane. However, as it reads now, I see no reason why it does not grant PP. Why it should not grant PP - ah...that is another question altogether...:D
Lamorake 03-02-07, 10:43 PM	Why it should not grant PP - ah...that is another question altogether... I agree whole-heartedly. In fact, you made me go out there and look up the feat again hoping I could find the right loop-holes to get pp for the feat, but the very last sentence compounded with the one above it makes it look doubtful that pp are allowed. Quote from Practiced Manifester: This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers. .... there might be a case to be made since nowhere does it mention power points, that you CAN increase them, but in the last sentence it states what it ONLY does... I don't know. I could justify it either way, but the selfish side of me wants the pp.
Bacris 03-03-07, 12:04 AM	ah, but it doesn't. It's a matter of how the sentence is formed - you'd think a writer would better understand this :) (meaning Bruce / Chris / whoever wrote that feat) Because of the placement of the "which helps you...", it pertains to the manifester level and is a description therein, not to the feat itself. Now, if the line said "This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known. It only increases your manifester level for purposes of helping you overcome power resistance and increasing the duration and other effects of your powers." Then you'd have a point, but the structure that it is presented combined with the very clear rules on how bonus power points are calculated leaves easy interpretation for power points. Now, as for whether or not it is intended? I can't say - but by RAW, it grants bonus power points. And yes, we are quibbling over sentence structure in this. :P But that's still how it's written.
runestar 03-03-07, 12:39 AM	This feat does not affect your powers per day or powers known. It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers. Hypothetically, if I was using the bonus PP to augment my existing powers, rather than manifesting them more times, would that count as "more powers" or not?:P I am still manifesting the same number of powers each day...
psiphre 03-04-07, 12:21 AM	What book is the feat from?
runestar 03-04-07, 01:13 AM	Complete Psi.
calronmoonflower 03-04-07, 03:21 AM	Hypothetically, if I was using the bonus PP to augment my existing powers, rather than manifesting them more times, would that count as "more powers" or not?:P I am still manifesting the same number of powers each day... It sounds like left over gobbledygook from Practiced Spellcaster. If you look at the last sentence in the text it says "It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers." It (and the offending passage) is also most word for word what Practiced Spellcaster says. Because it seems that they took a cut and paste approuch to this feat and spells scale freely and powers much be augmented to equal the same effect. i would say that you should allow it to grant you extra PP's per day.
psiphre 03-04-07, 06:22 PM	Complete Psi. is it 3.5?
Yadot 03-04-07, 06:31 PM	is it 3.5? Yes, but generally regarded as not worth the buy.
Red12 03-04-07, 06:31 PM	is it 3.5? Yup, in the the last in the Complete series before the new line. (mage, scoundrel, etc).
InkBlot 03-04-07, 07:40 PM	Yes, but generally regarded as not worth the buy. Good Points: The Lurk, Ardent, and Erudite base classes. The Ebon Saint, Soulbow, and Illumine Soul prestige classes. A handful of useful feats (especialy for soulknives). A handful of new powers. Consolidates many powers from other splatbooks. Synads. Bad Points: The Divine Mind base class. Ectopic forms. Illithid Heritage feats. The Ectopic Adept and Flayerspawn Psychic prestige classes. Pointless nerfs to existing material. Reprinted material from other books. Redundant feats waste space. Linked Power. Useless or broken powers, some of which are also reprints. Half the book is completely off-flavor (psionics is the power of the mind, not of the gods! Illithids reproduce asexually!) Focuses too much on the new classes and not enough on the existing ones. The worst editing and proof-reading this side of the 6th grade. Thats only the things that are nearly universally lauded or reviled. There is also a lot of material in the book that can go either way, depending on your tastes. In my opinion the book is only worth buying if you love psionics a great deal. Even then (perhaps especialy then), some of it can be maddening to read.
Lamorake 03-04-07, 10:30 PM	ah, but it doesn't. It's a matter of how the sentence is formed - you'd think a writer would better understand this (meaning Bruce / Chris / whoever wrote that feat) Because of the placement of the "which helps you...", it pertains to the manifester level and is a description therein, not to the feat itself. Okay, I'm sold on that. I'm going to add PP and no one is going to stop me. And do you know why? No one else in my player group is using psionics. They won't even know the difference. Muhahahaha!!!!
guesswhat12321 03-05-07, 01:49 AM	Okay, I'm sold on that. I'm going to add PP and no one is going to stop me. And do you know why? No one else in my player group is using psionics. They won't even know the difference. Muhahahaha!!!! And thats why a lot of DM's HATE Psionics because people bend the rules to make them more powerful and then the DM Bans them, dude its just a game so play by the rules. Because even if you **** off your DM and you just leave the group then you are also boned because you now have no DM.
Mesiolan 03-05-07, 03:58 AM	That is one of the reasons I would not overuse it. Really. We're playing RHoD right now and are 8th level. I'm playing the only PSI-PC of the campaign, a Kinetikist3/Cleric of Pelor3/Psych Theurge2. I'm the blaster and the main healer of the party of four (paladin8; druid8; ranger5/rogue3). Of course, I have Practiced feats for PSI and CLE. Last session I burnt every single PP to save the butt of the party. Still I was charged with hogging all the spotlight. If I would add bonus PP from practiced for INT 22 (including items), I'd get +9, which is plenty for this level. It all depends on your campaign. But if you break the fun of the other players and the DM, you'd better not push the rules too far to discredit psionics in general.
Bacris 03-05-07, 07:54 AM	And thats why a lot of DM's HATE Psionics because people bend the rules to make them more powerful and then the DM Bans them, dude its just a game so play by the rules. Because even if you **** off your DM and you just leave the group then you are also boned because you now have no DM. Again, this is by the rules, dude. I'm sorry if Complete Psionic had the editting of a 5th grade book report, but that's still how it's written - Practiced Manifester gives bonus power points. Like it or not, houserule it if you want, that's how the feat works by the entry in CPsi.
Lamorake 03-05-07, 10:12 AM	And thats why a lot of DM's HATE Psionics because people bend the rules to make them more powerful and then the DM Bans them, dude its just a game so play by the rules. Because even if you **** off your DM and you just leave the group then you are also boned because you now have no DM. I'm not attempting to bend the rules. I am playing by the rules of RAW in this case, even though the intent may have been not to add the PP. And more to the point, I am not doing anything that I cannot point out to the DM if I am asked. Even more to the point, we are all rotating DMs and all have been friends for well over 20 years, so there will be no banning of psionics in gaming, rest assured.
Red12 03-05-07, 11:59 AM	I think the bonus power points puts it slightly better than the arcane version. Without, its slightly worse. I'm quite alright having the feat be slightly better.
AntiDjinn 03-05-07, 12:42 PM	Practiced Manifest is yet another example of how cut and paste leads to problems. Simply slapping the word "manifester" over "spellcaster" and "power" over "spell" without taking mechanical differences in the system into account leads to ambiguity like this. I don't think the authors' intent was to add power points (manifester level only), but because the lazy option was exercised in translating the feat, the author's intent is unclear.
crizhII 03-05-07, 03:11 PM	Is it really that big a deal? Were playing it the way it's written and I'm planning on taking a level of Thrallherd shortly. That'll cost me a levels worth of PP's but as I already have Practiced Manifester and I'm only down two Manifester Levels so far I will gain some bonus PP's. Like 2! That's a quarter of what I would have gained staying an Erudite and a sixteenth of what that lost Manifester Level will eventually cost me. It's also worth bearing in mind that a Wizard17/Fighter3 gets exactly the same number of bonus spells as a Wizard20 and didn't have to take Practiced Spellcaster to get them.
edwardsobel 03-06-07, 09:56 AM	Is it really that big a deal? Were playing it the way it's written and I'm planning on taking a level of Thrallherd shortly. That'll cost me a levels worth of PP's but as I already have Practiced Manifester and I'm only down two Manifester Levels so far I will gain some bonus PP's. Like 2! That's a quarter of what I would have gained staying an Erudite and a sixteenth of what that lost Manifester Level will eventually cost me. It's also worth bearing in mind that a Wizard17/Fighter3 gets exactly the same number of bonus spells as a Wizard20 and didn't have to take Practiced Spellcaster to get them. Thought I would add my 1 cent worth. first clarification is the fact that I have not had to make any rulings on this subject at my game table so I cannot comment on balance one way or the other from personal experience (I probably would not allow bonus PP but that would be a house rule for me) now on to the discussion A wizard17/fighter3 without the feat has the same number of bonus spells as a wizard 20, and the same number of spells per day as a wizard 17. remember that bonus spells have no connection to caster level except as to what level the have access to the applicable spell level. the bonus spell chart is entirely based on prime requisite ability. as for the 2 PP which on the surface is really no big deal. so lets say then that the practiced Spellcaster feat gives two bonus 1st level spell slots (whoa now that is something to talk about) remember those 2 points can be used to manifest 2 more unaugmented 1st level powers (not likely needed at higher levels) but they are now available none the less. BTW: I did not pay for an argument (monty python reference)
Vloorshad 03-06-07, 09:58 AM	Is it really that big a deal? Were playing it the way it's written and I'm planning on taking a level of Thrallherd shortly. That'll cost me a levels worth of PP's but as I already have Practiced Manifester and I'm only down two Manifester Levels so far I will gain some bonus PP's. Like 2! That's a quarter of what I would have gained staying an Erudite and a sixteenth of what that lost Manifester Level will eventually cost me. It's also worth bearing in mind that a Wizard17/Fighter3 gets exactly the same number of bonus spells as a Wizard20 and didn't have to take Practiced Spellcaster to get them. There's the kicker as to why bonus PPs aren't overpowering. Not only do Arcane and Divine get the full allotment of bonus slots as soon as they have the right level, but every spell they cast takes full advantage of the levels granted by Practiced Spellcaster.
crizhII 03-06-07, 02:21 PM	A wizard17/fighter3 without the feat has the same number of bonus spells as a wizard 20, and the same number of spells per day as a wizard 17. remember that bonus spells have no connection to caster level except as to what level the have access to the applicable spell level. the bonus spell chart is entirely based on prime requisite ability. Admittedly it isn't a one to one translation but it's not too far off, about 5% at high levels, you can calculate how many PP's a Wizards bonus spells are worth, roughly. A Wizard with an INT of 40 has approximately 204PP's worth of Bonus Spells at level 17. At level 17 Psion17/Fighter3 gets 127 Bonus PP's from an Int of 40 or 150 if he has practiced manifester. Admittedly PP's are more flexible than spell slots and you should probably get slightly fewer to balance things but if you compare Psion PP progression to Wizard Spell slots from Class levels you'll see that the difference isn't that much. Using Practiced Manifester as written doesn't even bring a Manifesters Bonus from a high stat up to par with a Casters let alone give them an advantage. It doesn't give Manifesters something that casters don't get it gives them something that casters get for free without even buying a feat. Although if we start talking about Epic Progression...
zuul88 03-19-07, 04:57 AM	Why would you not want the bonus PP???? A burn from WotC finally went psionics way. Their blatant disrespect for psionics(cut and paste magic to psionic instead of writing a new one) worked for psionics this time. Enjoy. Why else would you take the feat? I wouldn't, I have better things to spend a very limited amount of feats on(2ranger/5psion10illithaid slayer/3Uncanny Trickster.though not that that cleanlly taken) I lose 4 manifester lvls with that build but without the bonus PP it is not worth it. And epic progression is so overrated. Whoopee!!!! I get to NOVA!!!!!! WoW!!!!! That was Awesome.......What do you mean we need to fight 3 more times today?!?!?! SH*T!!!!!!!!!!! Nathan
AQuebman 03-28-07, 02:31 PM	Okay this is a complete noob question but since i've never played a psion and im looking into trying a psion/wizard/Cerebremancer build I wanted to ask a question about this. How exactly is the +4 manifester level work into giving more power points. Granted im at work so I only have an SRD to look at but if you increase your base level's power points that would be insane the difference would b like 50 pp. Now if it shows somewhere how an increased manifester level gives you more PP then please enlighten me because apprently my mind has shut off for the evening.
Bacris 03-28-07, 02:32 PM	Your bonus power points (not your base power points) are based upon your manifester level. Not your class level. Not your psion level. Not your character level. Your manifester level. Practiced Manifester increases your manifester level. Ergo, it increases your Bonus Power Points.
AQuebman 03-28-07, 02:42 PM	Okay as my brain has jogged back on I think if I remember correctly doesn't it give you more bonus points because of level based on your intelligence or whatever critical score it is for your class? I will leave my previous idiot post as to show you all what sitting in an office for 8 hours a day will do to you. EDIT: awsome okay I understand how it works now thanks.
Kanachi 03-28-07, 02:54 PM	Oh man this could make a potentially huge difference to my character... My character is a scout 5/psion 1/elocator 5 and has this feat so just to make sure I’m reading this right can you tell me which of the following (A or B) i should get? A) 17 power points + 8 for having 18 int; the ability to augment a power to up to 4 power points in total cost B) 58 power points + 16 for having 18 int; the ability to augment a power to up to 8 power points in total cost. if its B (which after reading what you guys have put here I think it will be) am I going to break the game? I’m worried that I might... (not that I have any objections to being more powerful, but I don’t want to smash the game into shards!) thanks very much!
AQuebman 03-28-07, 03:01 PM	A would be correct. You take the base level of power points that you get for your level. Then you take the bonus power points table and look down at your skill... lets say 18 int. scroll over to 4 levels higher then what your manifester level is now and that's how many more you'd get. So if you would normally get 12 bonus points... and increasing 4 levels it says 20, then you essentially will gain 8 extra power points to your pool. I was being dumb earlier when I thought the latter you will not have 50 + power points that early on.
Bacris 03-28-07, 03:16 PM	Base power points are not based on your manifester level - it's based on your class level. This is why Practiced Manifester does not increase your base power points, only your bonus power points. So it's A, not B. How To Determine Bonus Power Points: Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier x your manifester level x1/2. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41. Power Points/Day: A psion’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available. His base daily allotment of power points is given on Table: The Psion. In addition, he receives bonus power points per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points). His race may also provide bonus power points per day, as may certain feats and items. Powers Known: At every level indicated on the table, the character gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if she had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. The increase from Elocator and the increase from Practiced Manifester are different. For purposes of base power points per day, powers known, etc, you have a Psion level of 4. Not 8.
Kanachi 03-28-07, 04:00 PM	cool thanks guys! 1 last thing though, what about augmentation limits? would my limit be 4 or 8?
Red12 03-28-07, 04:26 PM	max augment is 8.
Mesiolan 03-29-07, 08:50 AM	You know powers as a psion of Lv. 4 (9 known power, up to Lv. 2). You have 17 base PP as a Lv. 4 psion. You may augment powers up to 8 pp / manifestation. Your manifester level for powers concerning range, duration, dispelling, SR and so on is 8. You get (INT 18 =) 4 x (ML = 8) x half PP = 16 bonus PP.
Kanachi 03-29-07, 10:33 AM	thankyou very much!!