Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JohnnyArkham 04-18-08, 01:21 AM	I know there was a detailed explanation of how the PM feat particularly helps the Ardent...and specifically how it might assist in building a Psychic Theurge...but I cannot seem to locate it. Would someone might an assist? Thanks so much Johnny
Lycanthromancer 04-18-08, 01:29 AM	Unlike other manifesters, the ardent can manifest powers based on his manifester level, rather than his class level. Thus, raising his manifester level increases the level of powers he knows. Since Practiced Manifester increases your manifester level (up to +4 or up to your Hit Dice, whichever is lower), you can use it to learn higher level powers.
The_Shaman 04-18-08, 06:37 AM	I've heard that argument, but I'm not sure just where it says an ardent's manifester level, rather than class level, determines what powers they can learn. You can make a point for it, as there is no by-level limit on what maximum power they can manifest... and they can learn any power they can manifest, as per ther manifester level... but hasn't that been errata'd? Technically it may allow a 1st level ardent, with practiced manifester, to learn a 3rd level power. Also, would it work if you take it the same level? For example, can you take your 6th level in ardent after 5 levels in cleric, get practiced manifester, and take 2nd level powers to go into mystic theurge next level?
Nephlite 04-18-08, 06:54 AM	I've heard that argument, but I'm not sure just where it says an ardent's manifester level, rather than class level, determines what powers they can learn. You can make a point for it, as there is no by-level limit on what maximum power they can manifest... and they can learn any power they can manifest, as per ther manifester level... but hasn't that been errata'd? Technically it may allow a 1st level ardent, with practiced manifester, to learn a 3rd level power. Also, would it work if you take it the same level? For example, can you take your 6th level in ardent after 5 levels in cleric, get practiced manifester, and take 2nd level powers to go into mystic theurge next level? Actually, it does not affect a 1st level Ardent? Why you ask? Because it says at first you get 1st level powers: After first you choode powers as long as you manifest them. 1st: 1st level powers 2nd: Any powers you can manifest can be chosen Check out page 7. Only limitation is if you can manifest the power.
Bacris 04-18-08, 07:18 AM	Yup, Nephlite has it spot on. At 1st level, an ardent may only learn 1st level powers. Practiced Manifester does not change this. After that, he may learn any power whose level he can manifest. So, an ardent 1 / cleric 3 with practiced manifester now has an ardent manifester level of 4. When he levels next and picks to be Ardent 2 / cleric 3, he can manifest 3rd level powers, not 1st. Intended? Dunno, it seems an intentional shift from the "standard" Powers Known / Max Power Level write-up, so my guess is it's intended.
The_Shaman 04-18-08, 10:12 AM	I wanted to know if it can work with 1 ardent levels. 2 is still tolerable, but not that nice ;) It's probably more powerful than Soul Manifester, of course.
Racinante 04-18-08, 10:17 AM	I wanted to know if it can work with 1 ardent levels. 2 is still tolerable, but not that nice ;) It's probably more powerful than Soul Manifester, of course. If you pick up PM at first level as a cleric and take 3 more levels of cleric before picking up your first level of ardent, you chose first level ardent powers (Cleric 4/Ardent1). If you then pick up another level of ardent, you can then choose a 3rd level power, so no, it does not work with only one level of ardent.
Scion of Coldshard 04-18-08, 03:15 PM	hmm... for cerebremancer take 1st level of wizard with precocious apprentice, then two levels of ardent with practiced manifester as your 3rd level feat.. 2nd level spells and powers at 3rd level! ;) That matches up perfectly with the 6 rank requirement for 2 skills.
moebius00 04-19-08, 08:19 PM	Yup, Nephlite has it spot on. At 1st level, an ardent may only learn 1st level powers. Practiced Manifester does not change this. After that, he may learn any power whose level he can manifest. So, an ardent 1 / cleric 3 with practiced manifester now has an ardent manifester level of 4. When he levels next and picks to be Ardent 2 / cleric 3, he can manifest 3rd level powers, not 1st. Intended? Dunno, it seems an intentional shift from the "standard" Powers Known / Max Power Level write-up, so my guess is it's intended. You should be able to enter a double-caster class with 1 level of Ardent under any interpretation of p. 7: Class 1 5/Ardent 1 1: (Practiced Manifester) 3: (Feat) 6: (Expanded Knowledge - 2nd level power)