Practiced manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Practiced manifester [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Amaranth
11-26-07, 07:07 PM Does practiced manifester affect how many bonus PP you get from a high ability score, or just how many you can spend on a power and level dependent effects of the power?
Bacris
11-26-07, 09:26 PM By the way it is written, it also grants bonus PP.
Orenmir
11-27-07, 10:15 AM By the way it is written, it also grants bonus PP.

Man, I got hammered on this board the last time I suggested that claim. Bacris, you have much more clout than I!
SlanderPanic
11-27-07, 11:03 AM How To Determine Bonus Power Points
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier з your manifester level зН.

Choose a manifesting class that you possess. The powers you manifest from that class are more powerful.

Benefit: Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four.

I think the answer is clear. Besides, granting a few extra power points to a multiclassed manifester isn't exactly game-breaking.
InkBlot
11-27-07, 11:53 AM Practiced Manifester doesn't grant you bonus power points. In the feat's list of things it doesn't grant, it specifically state that it doesn't let you use your powers more often in a day.

But, ya know, that's just ComPsi's RAW. ComPsi's RAW is stupid.
SlanderPanic
11-27-07, 12:11 PM What they're referring to there is your class-based power points per day.
InkBlot
11-27-07, 12:22 PM What it says is "this feat does not affect your powers per day." It's just a bad find/replace job from Practiced Spellcaster.

We can't know what the intent of the feat was without tracking down the developers and asking them. If we did that, I expect they would say their only intent was to make their jobs easier by doing a find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster.
SlanderPanic
11-27-07, 12:29 PM Oh, I'm in agreement. It's one of those things that, because of shoddy editing, is open to interpretation... like so much of Complete Psionic. In the end, it's a DM's call and, as I think you'll agree, it's not game-breaking to let it increase bonus power points.
Lycanthromancer
11-27-07, 12:32 PM It actually makes the feat worthwhile to allow the additional power points. Casters, after all, gain scaling on their spells. An additional 4d6 damage for most direct-damage spells. Psionicists have already spent their entire lives sitting in the corner, not allowed to play with the other children. Why make it worse?

DEAR GODS, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
SlanderPanic
11-27-07, 01:14 PM Agreed. It doesn't make sense to allow a psion to spend more power points and then not give him more points to spend. That's like saying, "I modified your gun to shoot 200 rounds a minute. Here's 150 rounds. Have fun!"
Bacris
11-27-07, 01:28 PM There's no such thing as "powers per day".

There are power points and powers known.
Orenmir
11-27-07, 01:31 PM Playing a PsyWar, starved for PPs, I much prefer the responses in this thread than the ones I got here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952248
Lycanthromancer
11-27-07, 01:33 PM There's no such thing as "powers per day".

There are power points and powers known.
Except for erudites. They gain 'unique powers per day,' which could potentially be what the feat is talking about. Otherwise, the bonus power points are still based on your manifester level, which Practiced Manifester increases. So, RAW, it still increases them (which makes sense both mechanically for the manifester as well as when compared to other spellcasting classes).
Bacris
11-27-07, 01:44 PM In which case (erudites), the feat shouldn't affect it, so that makes sense :D

All things told, Practiced Manifester was given far too little thought into the underlying mechanics. I mean, consider how many debates there were on these boards before Complete Psionic about how Practiced Manifester should look. The bonus power points alone were discussed to death. Yet when the feat was written, all that was done was they took Practiced Caster, replaced "spells per day" with "powers per day", magic skills with psionic skills, and "caster level" to "manifester level".

Is it supposed to increase what level of powers Ardents can learn?
Is it supposed to grant additional bonus power points?

We don't know. But it does. :)
Lycanthromancer
11-27-07, 01:48 PM In which case (erudites), the feat shouldn't affect it, so that makes sense :D

All things told, Complete Psionic was given far too little thought into the underlying mechanics.Fixed. :P
Count Arioch the 28th
11-27-07, 01:49 PM Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points.
Lycanthromancer
11-27-07, 01:51 PM Playing a PsyWar, starved for PPs, I much prefer the responses in this thread than the ones I got here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952248
Yes, but we're answering the specific question that was asked. The question in that thread is different, so people give different answers.
Bacris
11-27-07, 01:53 PM Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points.

Should not? That's your opinion.

Does not? Incorrect per the way the feat is written.

And as has already been mentioned, as casters get free scaling on their spells based upon Practiced Spellcaster, I don't see bonus power points being a problem for Practiced Manifester.
Lycanthromancer
11-27-07, 01:53 PM Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points.
But due to free-scaling vs psionic-pay-for-what-you-get, spellcasters get a LOT more mileage out of their feat.

From the character optimization thread mentioned earlier:
Except that you gain +4 to your ML, capped at your HD. Since bonus PPs are based off your manifester level (not your class level), yes, you do gain bonus power points. Since casters gain free-scaling to their spells (ie, +1d6 per manifester level), this is not only fair, but nearly required for the feat to be useful outside of qualifying for pre-reqs. Take a psion 1/fighter 4, for instance; how are you going to be paying those +4 power points needed for your augmentation on those powers of yours? Unless you're taking lots of feats for Psionic Talent (or similar feats), you NEED those bonus power points in order to be able to function.
Suspect_Unusual
11-27-07, 02:15 PM Arcane casters get more mileage in general, that's true... but psionics DOES get something out of Practiced Manifester that arcane and divine don't get from Practiced Spellcaster, and that is the ability to effectively represent spells of a higher level then they would otherwise have access too.

Example: A 1st level telepath with Psionic Charm, 4 levels of whatever, and Practiced Manifester can duplicate Charm Monster, something no Arcane caster with Charm Person, 4 levels of whatever, and Practiced Spellcaster can do.

Of course, I'll be the first to mention this isn't usually worth it - those 5 pp are probably at least 1/2 of the character's PP, or more. It's simply something a psion can do that arcane cannot - reasonable in a game where psionics is supposed to be mechanically different enough to warrant it's existence.
CrimsonDeath
11-27-07, 04:52 PM DEAR GODS, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Yes, think of the children... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35)
Fatalis_902
11-27-07, 05:19 PM Yes, think of the children... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35)

Dude...that's evil. I LIKE IT!!!:schemes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amaranth 11-26-07, 07:07 PM	Does practiced manifester affect how many bonus PP you get from a high ability score, or just how many you can spend on a power and level dependent effects of the power?
Bacris 11-26-07, 09:26 PM	By the way it is written, it also grants bonus PP.
Orenmir 11-27-07, 10:15 AM	By the way it is written, it also grants bonus PP. Man, I got hammered on this board the last time I suggested that claim. Bacris, you have much more clout than I!
SlanderPanic 11-27-07, 11:03 AM	How To Determine Bonus Power Points Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier з your manifester level зН. Choose a manifesting class that you possess. The powers you manifest from that class are more powerful. Benefit: Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four. I think the answer is clear. Besides, granting a few extra power points to a multiclassed manifester isn't exactly game-breaking.
InkBlot 11-27-07, 11:53 AM	Practiced Manifester doesn't grant you bonus power points. In the feat's list of things it doesn't grant, it specifically state that it doesn't let you use your powers more often in a day. But, ya know, that's just ComPsi's RAW. ComPsi's RAW is stupid.
SlanderPanic 11-27-07, 12:11 PM	What they're referring to there is your class-based power points per day.
InkBlot 11-27-07, 12:22 PM	What it says is "this feat does not affect your powers per day." It's just a bad find/replace job from Practiced Spellcaster. We can't know what the intent of the feat was without tracking down the developers and asking them. If we did that, I expect they would say their only intent was to make their jobs easier by doing a find/replace job on Practiced Spellcaster.
SlanderPanic 11-27-07, 12:29 PM	Oh, I'm in agreement. It's one of those things that, because of shoddy editing, is open to interpretation... like so much of Complete Psionic. In the end, it's a DM's call and, as I think you'll agree, it's not game-breaking to let it increase bonus power points.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-07, 12:32 PM	It actually makes the feat worthwhile to allow the additional power points. Casters, after all, gain scaling on their spells. An additional 4d6 damage for most direct-damage spells. Psionicists have already spent their entire lives sitting in the corner, not allowed to play with the other children. Why make it worse? DEAR GODS, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
SlanderPanic 11-27-07, 01:14 PM	Agreed. It doesn't make sense to allow a psion to spend more power points and then not give him more points to spend. That's like saying, "I modified your gun to shoot 200 rounds a minute. Here's 150 rounds. Have fun!"
Bacris 11-27-07, 01:28 PM	There's no such thing as "powers per day". There are power points and powers known.
Orenmir 11-27-07, 01:31 PM	Playing a PsyWar, starved for PPs, I much prefer the responses in this thread than the ones I got here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952248
Lycanthromancer 11-27-07, 01:33 PM	There's no such thing as "powers per day". There are power points and powers known. Except for erudites. They gain 'unique powers per day,' which could potentially be what the feat is talking about. Otherwise, the bonus power points are still based on your manifester level, which Practiced Manifester increases. So, RAW, it still increases them (which makes sense both mechanically for the manifester as well as when compared to other spellcasting classes).
Bacris 11-27-07, 01:44 PM	In which case (erudites), the feat shouldn't affect it, so that makes sense :D All things told, Practiced Manifester was given far too little thought into the underlying mechanics. I mean, consider how many debates there were on these boards before Complete Psionic about how Practiced Manifester should look. The bonus power points alone were discussed to death. Yet when the feat was written, all that was done was they took Practiced Caster, replaced "spells per day" with "powers per day", magic skills with psionic skills, and "caster level" to "manifester level". Is it supposed to increase what level of powers Ardents can learn? Is it supposed to grant additional bonus power points? We don't know. But it does. :)
Lycanthromancer 11-27-07, 01:48 PM	In which case (erudites), the feat shouldn't affect it, so that makes sense :D All things told, Complete Psionic was given far too little thought into the underlying mechanics.Fixed. :P
Count Arioch the 28th 11-27-07, 01:49 PM	Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-07, 01:51 PM	Playing a PsyWar, starved for PPs, I much prefer the responses in this thread than the ones I got here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=952248 Yes, but we're answering the specific question that was asked. The question in that thread is different, so people give different answers.
Bacris 11-27-07, 01:53 PM	Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points. Should not? That's your opinion. Does not? Incorrect per the way the feat is written. And as has already been mentioned, as casters get free scaling on their spells based upon Practiced Spellcaster, I don't see bonus power points being a problem for Practiced Manifester.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-07, 01:53 PM	Practiced Spellcaster doesn't give you more spells. Therefore, Practiced Manifester should not give power points. But due to free-scaling vs psionic-pay-for-what-you-get, spellcasters get a LOT more mileage out of their feat. From the character optimization thread mentioned earlier: Except that you gain +4 to your ML, capped at your HD. Since bonus PPs are based off your manifester level (not your class level), yes, you do gain bonus power points. Since casters gain free-scaling to their spells (ie, +1d6 per manifester level), this is not only fair, but nearly required for the feat to be useful outside of qualifying for pre-reqs. Take a psion 1/fighter 4, for instance; how are you going to be paying those +4 power points needed for your augmentation on those powers of yours? Unless you're taking lots of feats for Psionic Talent (or similar feats), you NEED those bonus power points in order to be able to function.
Suspect_Unusual 11-27-07, 02:15 PM	Arcane casters get more mileage in general, that's true... but psionics DOES get something out of Practiced Manifester that arcane and divine don't get from Practiced Spellcaster, and that is the ability to effectively represent spells of a higher level then they would otherwise have access too. Example: A 1st level telepath with Psionic Charm, 4 levels of whatever, and Practiced Manifester can duplicate Charm Monster, something no Arcane caster with Charm Person, 4 levels of whatever, and Practiced Spellcaster can do. Of course, I'll be the first to mention this isn't usually worth it - those 5 pp are probably at least 1/2 of the character's PP, or more. It's simply something a psion can do that arcane cannot - reasonable in a game where psionics is supposed to be mechanically different enough to warrant it's existence.
CrimsonDeath 11-27-07, 04:52 PM	DEAR GODS, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! Yes, think of the children... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35)
Fatalis_902 11-27-07, 05:19 PM	Yes, think of the children... (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12824962&postcount=35) Dude...that's evil. I LIKE IT!!!:schemes: