Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokiyn 07-13-06, 06:07 PM	Preliminary Thrallherd Guide; This is the foundation of a FAQ/Help file for thrallherds once an acceptable format and information pool is built a new thread of the "unofficial thrallherd Guide" will be made. So what’s a Thrallherd?Thrallherds are members of the Thrallherd Prestige class found in the Expanded Psionics Handbook Page 153How do I get in? Basic entry Combinations, all need Wisdom 13 for Inquisitor Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 1; Easiest Psion 5/ Thrallherd 1; Basic Psion Entry using expanded Knowledge[Mindlink] Kalashtar Psion 5/ Thrallherd 1; As psion entry except Racial mindlink(ps) replaces the feat These are the three Easiest ways to enter the class.Ok, But what are Thrallherds?Simply put the Thrallherd is the Psionic pinnacle of the leadership. With a rapid progression of leadership score and an endless supply of believers the Thrallherd has a degree of minion control unmatched by normal leadership usages.What do you mean unmatched? The Thrallherd’s Leadership score is calculated slightly differently than leadership. Instead of the normal formula the Thrallherd’s score is calculated by adding the Character Level + Charisma Modifier + the Thrallherd Level, Which as you can see causes the class to rapidly progress in leadership score. One thing of note is that at your first normal entry at level 6 your leadership score is a base 7+cha. If you take all ten levels of the class you have a leadership score of 25 +Cha. Often this means that you will cap out the leadership table before a normal leader will. In addition its important to realize that you can never accrue any penalties to your leadership score. Another thing that Thrallherd’s have that makes them better than leadership is the Twofold Master (ex) ability that grants them a second cohort. Importantly note that the original cohort is level -1 rather than level -2 [which the second cohort inherits] making it more combat capable.That’s cool what’s the catch?The “catch” to this class is that you can not take leadership, Period. In addition you must take a focus expenditure feat, and must have Mindlink as either a psi-like ability or a power. As mindlink is a telepath only power this often requires the expenditure of a feat. In addition you must also lose two caster levels, at 1 & 10 instead of gaining a manifester level you gain cohorts instead. A more than fair trade in my book.What’s with these terms? Believers? Thralls?An excellent question. One of the fundamental differences between the leadership feat and the effect Thrallherd (ex) Granted by this class is in the people you attract. This extraordinary ability locates people with weakness in their personality They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve him, but because a hidden psychic resonnnce connects the Thrallherd and his servents The important thing is that this link has nothing to do with any listed game mechanic. Is the thrall or believer immune to mind affecting? Doesn’t matter. Wisdom 18, Will save +12, Ultra high intelligence? It doesn’t matter. The call located people who have a hidden need to serve. Everyone at times reaches a point where they wish to sink into the sweet oblivion of servitude, where its not your decision you are simply following orders (For a real life example of this see Milgram’s Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) ). This means that anyone could concevible be affected by the calls. So what degree of control do I have? Total. As quoted above. These people don’t come because the want to, they must come and must obey you. If you examine the class description you see that regarless of their wants They come, Eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherds control. Rock on! Who can I get, can I pick and choose? As stated in the Thrallherd (ex) ability description the text states that the ability is akin to the leadership feat except in certain instances As listed above they are controlled into subservience not willing followers. Leadership score is calculated Differently The cohort is level -1 rather than Level -2 24 hour respawn timer; slain Thralls and Believers are replaced in 24 hours So after taken this into account hop over to the leadership feat to see what’s the same. The Phb sources the Dmg so off to that text. The Character may attempt to call Race, Class, and Alignment. Period Alignment must not be opposed on any axis. This grants neutrals an edge. The Dm determines details Wait a minute, Clear that last one up for me. It’s quite simple, As a Thrallherd you may select up to three aspects of the minion. Race, Class, and Alignment. All other aspects are up to the dm this includes, but is not limited to Equipment Age Gender Feats Skills Spells Powers Health Enemies Allies Amount of Levels in a Class So in Theory, I could choose to have nothing but wizards to form a Thaumocracy? Yes, or all bards, or all commoners if one choose so. Wait, what was that last one on the list!?!? Amount of Levels in a class. You can call a class but you can’t guarantee that it will have the levels you expect. For example if you want a fighter for a shield, you might get a fighter rogue, or a fighter commoner. You can pick a class and the summoned character is guaranteed to have 1 level of that class, no more no less. The other class levels are up to the dm. So…, I have a time, what should I expect for range? Infinite, The ability has no limitations on range other than the time the called servant takes to reach you (no more than 24 hours) this means if a commoner in sigil knew of a portal within range that would allow it to reach you in 24 hours, it could become your believer. More realistically though a closer match could be made. So if one looks at travel speeds, using only the base speed and a 24 hour travel time. 30 ft 81.82 Miles 40 ft 109.09 Miles 50 ft 136.36 Miles 60 ft 163.63 Miles Modified for appropriate travel time modifiers for terrain. Expect exausted minions if they are forced to travel that far in the 24 hour period Aside from Thrallherd (ex) and Twofold Master (ex), what else does the class have to offer? Two Free powers Psionic Charm Psionic Dominate Reduced Manifesting cost for Psionic Charm and Psionic Dominate 1/day Free Augment for Psionic Dominate. What classes Synergize with this class well? Mindbender This class rocks. You can enter it as your level six class or wait to take it till level 7 Snag that telepathy and drop back into Thrallherd. Normally I oppose dipping. But this dip boosts the build way to much to ignore. Note that if you get telepathy first you never have to verbally command your minions, leaving your companions none the wiser. Most popularly it can be used for interparty sniping. Imagine that each day that “one guy” (there is always one) gets attacked with up to 135 level 1 commoners. Or for Sieges, send the Believers in on a do or die mission. They can be replaced over and over. Body Leech Body Leech was designed for characters to feed on the bodies of others to fuel their own power. Thrallherd synergizes with this by providing a replenishable source of power. Shadowmind Another Dip for Read Thoughts and a +2 boost to Ref and Will Atavist While not necessarily a manifesting class with improved unarmed strike you can pick up new skills as class skills not linked to atavist Others I’m open to suggestions on other peoples builds that boost Thrallherd. Ok, are there any Odd ways to enter this class, like illumians and eldritch knights? Oddly enough there is a non standard way to get into the class. First off you need a Wisdom Score of 13 for Inquisitor, not that hard. Inquisitor is a [psionic] feat so you need to qualify for it in one of four ways Take a level in a psionic class granting you Pp Be a Race with Psi-like abilities or Bonus Pp Take Hidden Talent, Or Wild Talent Be Phrenic Options 2 & 3 provide the least hit to your normal build. Now that you have Qualifications for Psionic feats you can take Inquisitor, and the Feat Telepathic Affinity [host] Which grants you Mindlink (ps) and a manifester level equal to ½ your current HD. At level 10 you meet all the prereqs for the class. So a Human Fighter 10/Thrallherd 1/ Fighter 9 is possible. Or any other build that has the required 2-3 feats to spare that could benefit from a level of Thrallherd (it’s not recommended to take more than one unless you are a manifesting class) Please Discuss and Debate. this is one of the most questioned psionic classes and certainly deserves a guide to it's usage. i'll clean up spelling errors and such and format it as i have time.
Fargren 07-13-06, 06:32 PM	So what degree of control do I have? Total. As quoted above. These people don’t come because the want to, they must come and must obey you. If you examine the class description you see that regarless of their wants What you quoted is flavor text, in the flavor section of the class. That is in no way rule text. Some people(as myself) concider that tat's not the degree of control you have over your followers. Some concider followers are allways friendly. I concider they are just bound to come to you, but once they reach you, they cna do as they please(leaving, for example, but they won't do it unless you give them a reason, like misstreating them) you have to make adiplomacy check to see how well they like you. However, the class grants charm and dominate, both of wich can be extended to last 24 hours/level, so if you don't want to take the trouble of making them like you, you can still force them to do it. However, yours is alsoa valid interpretation.
Lokiyn 07-13-06, 06:48 PM	Thrallherd (ex) (http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm) A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively. They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants. As with the Leadership feat, a thrallherd has a Leadership score that determines the highest-level thrall and believers she can attract. A thrallherd’s Leadership score is equal to her character level + her Cha modifier + her thrallherd level. (Note that her thrallherd level is counted twice.) This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat. As with the Leadership feat, the called thrall’s level is limited, even if the character’s Leadership score would indicate a higher-level thrall. Unlike with the Leadership feat, the level limit of a thrall is equal to the character’s total level minus 1 (not level minus 2, as is true for cohorts). A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. Use this table instead of the one with the Leadership feat to determine the level of a thrallherd’s thrall and the number of believers of various levels a thrallherd can attract. I quoted the in mechanical text from the SRD from D20srd.org From the text in the Wizards D20 Thrallherd (ex) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PsionicClasses.rtf)Thrallherd (Ex): A thrallherd who has just entered the class sends out a subtle psychic call for servants, and that call is answered. Essentially, the character gains something akin to the Leadership feat, but with some important differences. Those who answer a thrallherd’s call are not referred to as cohorts and followers, but rather as thralls and believers, respectively.They do not appear because they admire the character and want to serve her, but because a hidden psychic resonance connects the thrallherd and her servants. As with the Leadership feat, a thrallherd has a Leadership score that determines the highest-level thrall and believers she can attract. A thrallherd’s Leadership score is equal to her character level + her Cha modifier + her thrallherd level. (Note that her thrallherd level is counted twice.) This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat. As with the Leadership feat, the called thrall’s level is limited, even if the character’s Leadership score would indicate a higher-level thrall. Unlike with the Leadership feat, the level limit of a thrall is equal to the character’s total level minus 1 (not level minus 2, as is true for cohorts). A thrallherd cannot take the Leadership feat; if the character already has it, the feat is lost and replaced by this ability; those who were previously cohorts and followers go their separate ways, and those who are more mentally pliable show up later to take up roles as thralls and believers. A thrallherd’s first thrall and believers arrive within 24 hours of her entry into this class; likewise, lost thralls and believers are replaced within 24 hours. Use the following table instead of the one with the Leadership feat to determine the level of a thrallherd’s thrall and the number of believers of various levels a thrallherd can attract. In all honesty i can't see any other interpretation than that you just flat out own them. But Excellent point, These are the issues that should be cleared up and what is asked most often
gpharand 07-14-06, 12:55 PM	What about the believers (followers). The Epic Level Handbook states that followers are usually warriors, experts or commoners, does this apply to believers? When you take the Leadership feat or Thrallherd PrC, do you pick your followers and believers or does the DM roll randomly?
Fargren 07-14-06, 02:06 PM	They come, Eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherds control. This is the "flavor" part I was talking about. The part you quote just refers to why do the followers come, not to why do you have control over them, or what kind of control do you have. So, since that is not mentioned, I assume you just about as much cotrol over them as you do over a cohort(since it works like leadership).
QuarianRex 07-16-06, 03:53 PM	It’s quite simple, As a Thrallherd you may select up to three aspects of the minion. Race, Class, and Alignment. All other aspects are up to the dm Actually you are a little off on this. The section of the DMG that you are slightly misquoting actually pertains just to Cohorts. They are the only ones where the PC is allowed to specify race, class, and alignment. Nowhere does it say that the PC has any control whatsoever of the composition of his followers (or believers). It would be cool if it were otherwise but you are essentially at the mercy of the DM.
Lokiyn 07-18-06, 06:05 PM	Actually you are a little off on this. The section of the DMG that you are slightly misquoting actually pertains just to Cohorts. They are the only ones where the PC is allowed to specify race, class, and alignment. Nowhere does it say that the PC has any control whatsoever of the composition of his followers (or believers). It would be cool if it were otherwise but you are essentially at the mercy of the DM. The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat. I'll Reference this line in responce to that. Basically Followers use the same rules for cohorts except for called out exceptions. Normally it doesn't matter what followers you get so normally you can let the dm pick whatever. Most of the time believers get spread out among the population or are put to work and are not in "play" during adventuring. However, i would like to point out that when you choose to attract a cohort or follower (thrall/believer) that the dm is not required to give you a cohort (thrall) of the listed Level for your max. The dm is well within his rights to give you lower level thralls/cohorts than your max according to the tables. Later i plan of finishing up a list of all 3.5 creatures with an ECL, I have all the three main monster manuals in already so i may post those alone soon. In addition more towards the level of control This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat.Table: Reputation Leader’s Reputation Modifier Great renown +2 Fairness and generosity +1 Special power +1 Failure -1 Aloofness -1 Cruelty -2 Table: Attracting Cohorts The Leader… Modifier Has a familiar, special mount, or animal companion -2 Recruits a cohort of a different alignment -1 Caused the death of a cohort -2* * Cumulative per cohort killed. Table: Attracting Followers The Leader… Modifier Has a stronghold, base of operations, guildhouse, or the like +2 Moves around a lot -1 Caused the death of other followers -1 Judging by the factors that are mechanically ignored by thrallherds it seems that it is reasonably that you have an unusualy high control over the believers and thralls, combined with quotes as stated earlier that some dismiss as mere "flavor" show that it is not outside the bounds of reason to consider that the attracted victims of Thrallherd(ex) are indeed under the thrall of the thrallherd. Now i may or may not be correct according to the intentions of the author, however judging straight from the Text and making a minimum of inferrences if any the text is supportive of the total control theory. Also in denial of the they are forced to come but not to stay i would like to point out They come, Eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherds control. So to break it down, Victims of thrallherd(ex) are as thus The action they preform upon falling under the sway of the pc They come,The manner in which they comeEager to be led, happy to follow,And the Condition they are in and completely under the thrallherds control.
Fargren 07-18-06, 06:43 PM	First, I'm going to ask: do you wish me to continue arguing about how much control do you have over the Thralls? I can continue, but if you consider it anoying or a waste of thread space, I will stop. In addition more towards the level of control Originally Posted by Thrallherd(ex) This score is not affected by any of the modifiers mentioned in the Leadership feat. Originally Posted by Leadership Modifiers Table: Reputation Leader’s Reputation Modifier Great renown +2 Fairness and generosity +1 Special power +1 Failure -1 Aloofness -1 Cruelty -2 Table: Attracting Cohorts The Leader… Modifier Has a familiar, special mount, or animal companion -2 Recruits a cohort of a different alignment -1 Caused the death of a cohort -2* * Cumulative per cohort killed. Code: Table: Attracting Followers The Leader… Modifier Has a stronghold, base of operations, guildhouse, or the like +2 Moves around a lot -1 Caused the death of other followers -1 Judging by the factors that are mechanically ignored by thrallherds it seems that it is reasonably that you have an unusualy high control over the believers and thralls, combined with quotes as stated earlier that some dismiss as mere "flavor" show that it is not outside the bounds of reason to consider that the attracted victims of Thrallherd(ex) are indeed under the thrall of the thrallherd. Now i may or may not be correct according to the intentions of the author, however judging straight from the Text and making a minimum of inferrences if any the text is supportive of the total control theory. What I see the text says there is that the the psionic atraction NPCs feel towards you is not affecteed by who you are. However, I don't see how that explicitely removes their free will or their ability to choose wether or not they want to stay with you. Also in denial of the they are forced to come but not to stay i would like to point out They come, Eager to be led, happy to follow, and completely under the thrallherds control. Again, you are quoting flavor text. While falvor text can be usefull to help understand rules, I believe basing how the most important ability of a class bases on flavor text is a bad idea. I don't think the class will be broken, or even unbalanced, if you concider this as rule text, but it just isn't. If you want to discuss mechanics, try to quote only mechanics. (I'm sorry if any this sounds offensive: I don't want it to sound that way).
QuarianRex 07-19-06, 01:19 PM	Originally Posted by Dmg,Number of Followers by Level The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat. I'll Reference this line in responce to that. Basically Followers use the same rules for cohorts except for called out exceptions. Normally it doesn't matter what followers you get so normally you can let the dm pick whatever. Most of the time believers get spread out among the population or are put to work and are not in "play" during adventuring. You have done some creative splicing with your quote here. The sentence, "The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level" are from a footnote under the chart detailing the results of the levels of various Leadership scores. While the second line, "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat", is taken fron the preceding section detailing types of Friend class NPCs, including Allies, Cohorts, Followers, and Hirelings. Where it says that Followers are similar to cohorts it is refering to the previous entry for Cohorts specifically in that NPC section. Also, note that that entry for Cohorts are for all Cohorts, not specifically for those gained from the Leadership feat. For instance, the DMG states that there are no limits on the number of Cohorts that can be employed by thhe PC. This is for Cohorts in general, obviously not for the purposes of the Leadership feat which only provides you with one. The section saying that you can select race, class, and alignment is under Attracting Cohorts as part of the Leadership feat. Accordingly, you can specify characteristics for the Cohort you get as part of the Leadersip feat but any other Cohorts would only be available through roleplaying, and that means that their composition would be up to DM fiat, as would be your followers. This may seem like a lot over a relatively minor point but it deserves to be clairified before someone tries to get 135 1st level Sorcerors whipping out Magic Missiles in a barage of death. Your Thrallherd ability is not going to be emptying the freshman class of every magic college in 500 miles on a daily basis. There will be a large chunk of potato farmers and goat wranglers in your mix of followers. The key with Thrallherd is using you Believers to best effect, not getting the best possible Believers.
Pegasos989 07-19-06, 03:50 PM	So, as a question. Let's assume a trallherd is sieging a small city with all those thralls. Nowhere else in 100 miles is enough people to replace those fallen in combat. Would some of the defenders then switch sides to the guys who just killed their friends? Also, if the only believers come from the city, could the sieging side just shoot at them the same speed they walk from inside the gates?
Wolf_Boy 07-19-06, 04:18 PM	Hmmmm couldn't a sadistically evil thrallheard just kill hundreds of people on a daily bases including an apparently high level person, as they apparently serve him completely and respawn every 24 hours?
Richmud 07-19-06, 05:50 PM	Thrallherds probably can wipe out a chunks of the population each day if they really want to. In fact evil thrallherds who call for an evil cleric as his thrall might be able to set up an area to sacrifice the belivers according to the rules in vile darkness.
mrozbrne 07-20-06, 05:14 PM	:D what kind of retard would read that as flavor text?
SanderJK 07-20-06, 09:20 PM	One day, when i'm DM'ing an approriate game (where psionics and vampirism are both at least somewhat commonplace) I shall make a Thrallherd vampirelord. All he has to do is sit in his castle, food walks up to him all the time. Make vampires out of the ones you like, eat the ones you don't, more food will arrive tommorow....
BloodSpill 07-21-06, 01:06 AM	So you can't take Leadership. What about: Undead Leadership? Wild Cohort? Dragon Cohort?
Khandar 07-21-06, 03:21 AM	Thrallherd Soul Eater with an Evil Cleric thrall...
Fargren 07-21-06, 01:46 PM	:D what kind of retard would read that as flavor text? There's no need to nisult me. Everything that comes before the class' hit die except for the class' name is flavor text.
Lokiyn 07-21-06, 05:28 PM	So you can't take Leadership. What about: Undead Leadership? Wild Cohort? Dragon Cohort? Undead Leadership? Yes, Technically you can. However note that there is a penalty to leadership score of -4 that applies to your thrallherd score as well (for the purposes of non undead believers and thralls Wild Cohort??Yep, its legal Dragon Cohort??Yep, in fact you could ask for a pseudodragon thrallherd as a draconic cohort. There's no need to nisult me. Everything that comes before the class' hit die except for the class' name is flavor text. just to point out, the quote comes after the hit dice marker inside the thrallherd (ex): text block and is part of a listing of diferences from the leadership feat. More on that later.
Fargren 07-21-06, 05:48 PM	just to point out, the quote comes after the hit dice marker inside the thrallherd (ex): text block and is part of a listing of diferences from the leadership feat. More on that later. What qoute are you talking about? If it's the whole "eager to be led" thing, then I believe you are wrong, unless my XPH is different from yours
Pegasos989 07-21-06, 07:32 PM	Undead Leadership? Yes, Technically you can. However note that there is a penalty to leadership score of -4 that applies to your thrallherd score as well (for the purposes of non undead believers and thralls Wild Cohort??Yep, its legal Dragon Cohort??Yep, in fact you could ask for a pseudodragon thrallherd as a draconic cohort. I think that the special rule "Like the standard leadership feat, you must check with your DM before selecting this feat" rules out trallhers getting undead leadership in most of the cases. :D But yeah, I guess that technically it could work, just like punpun.
Valor22 07-24-06, 12:12 PM	Hello I recently started playing a Telepath Thrallherd. While our fist match ended in the death of all the believers and my thrall I now have to acquire new ones. To make a long story short this is causing a bone of contention among the players. It developed into a full blow out argument and while our Dm is open-minded to all this she is also taking into consideration what the others are saying. So I have a few questions. In your guide you write that the Dm can pick classes. Is this a written rule somewhere or something you came up with by your own interpretation? I’ve looked over the Thrallherd and Leadership entries and I didn’t see that mentioned anywhere. The reason I ask is that you could ask for a level 7 fighter, but end up getting and 1st level fighter 6 level bard. What would be the point of such a Thrall? While she has agreed to not use NPC classes I still find this to be a bit ridicules. Also feat selection. If the Dm chooses she would pick feats that have nothing to do with the Thrall’s class or feats that don’t really benefit it. What I am asking is where is it written in a published WoTC book. Basically a rule book that the DM gets to choose this info for the Thralls and Believers? One last questions. There are no game mechanics that describe how the en thralling procedure takes place, (no will saves and so on). Is this an over sight by WoTC? While obviously you won’t be able to take a thrall with a higher level then you, but what about high will saves or high intelligence or wisdom? While your argument for mentally pliable sounds reasonable and correct to me. By the same argument it could be taken any which way you would like to look at it. Mentally pliable could me anything you want it to mean. While I am really enjoying playing this class I cant help but see some battleship size holes in the meat and reasoning behind it all. Valor
Rageheart 07-24-06, 12:33 PM	How about Wilder with Exanded Knowledge (Mindlink) to maximize the usefulness of a decent to High Wis (needed for Inquisitor) Don't forget the ThoughtSinger (there's nothin like a Psi-Bard that travels with a Horde of Groupies!) and SocietyMind as well!
Sarlax 07-24-06, 03:40 PM	It's important to note that the class only requires "Manifester level 5th." The other requirements don't really matter. Every psionic class (see below) has Knowledge (Psionics) as a class skills, and anyone can have 4 ranks of Diplomacy at 5th level. Last is Inquisitor, which requires only Wisdom 13; you need to be able to obtain psionic focus to use the feat, and this requires at least 1 PP, but you just need to have the feat - you don't need to be able to use it. You don't have to obtain that manifester level by being a manifester. This means two things. First, all psionic classes have a manifester level. The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. This means that soulknives, psychic warriors, ardents, lurks, etc. can all qualify to be thrallherds. Second, any creature with psi-like abilities has a manifester level due to these abilities. Finally, with Practiced Manifester (CPsi), you only need a single level in a psionic class to eventually get ML 5th. Almost any class combo can be a thrallherd as a kalashtar since they receive Mindlink; they even get the manifester levels for free, so a kalashtar Wizard 10 can get into the class. Of course, it works best for characters with psionic classes (since they benefit from improved manifester levels), but the first-level of this class is great. The Thrallherd class feature scales even with a first-level dip, since you gain an effective leadership score equal to Class Level + Character Level + Cha. If your DM allows Hidden Talent, anyone can know Mindlink and get into this class, assuming they can obtain the manifester levels some other way. There's also Expanded Knowledge.
carnivore 07-24-06, 04:19 PM	great thread......will post a link in the Psion Buildguide :D
Richmud 07-24-06, 05:44 PM	In your guide you write that the Dm can pick classes. Is this a written rule somewhere or something you came up with by your own interpretation? I’ve looked over the Thrallherd and Leadership entries and I didn’t see that mentioned anywhere. The reason I ask is that you could ask for a level 7 fighter, but end up getting and 1st level fighter 6 level bard. What would be the point of such a Thrall? While she has agreed to not use NPC classes I still find this to be a bit ridicules. Also feat selection. If the Dm chooses she would pick feats that have nothing to do with the Thrall’s class or feats that don’t really benefit it. Valor This why evil thrallherds survive longer, when the fighter 1 bard 6 shows up they kill it and try again the next day.
bomaz 07-24-06, 06:07 PM	also remind your dm that the thrall have to make sense. you are not likely to find a fighter who has thoughness as his only feat. It is more likely that he has fighter feats. what happens when you kill your thrall and then spend the next days in space very very far from all other living beings?
ElIsRa 08-03-06, 02:47 AM	Preliminary It’s quite simple, As a Thrallherd you may select up to three aspects of the minion. Race, Class, and Alignment. All other aspects are up to the dm this includes, but is not limited to Equipment Age Gender Feats Skills Spells Powers Health Enemies Allies Amount of Levels in a Class So in Theory, I could choose to have nothing but wizards to form a Thaumocracy? Yes, or all bards, or all commoners if one choose so. Wait, what was that last one on the list!?!? I know that there has been discussion of whether or not someone could determine the class of their fallowers/minions. Either way you sill would be limited to the NPC classes Commoner, Expert, and Warror. The Epic rule book allows for additional classes at reduced levels such as aristrocrats, adapts and even at extreamly high levels, PrCs; which leads me to believe that atleast some of those back in the Wizards' workshops intended for players to have atleast some control on the types of fallowers he aquires. My question is, what happens to the Epic Thrallherd? At the 11th PrC level do you get an Epic version of Thrallherd, would Epic Leadership (or a psionic equivalent) boost your Thrallherd ability to Epic levels, or is the Thrallherd bond to forever be stuck with a pre-Epic virtual leadership? Also, does the Epic Thrallherd continue to gain extra cohorts every 10 levels or so?
angellis_ater 08-03-06, 03:56 AM	As of right now the Epic Thrallherd is the dominion of every DM out there. As with all 10-level PrCs they have the possibility of being extended after 20th lvl, but the specifics are up to each DM.
c00lz3 08-03-06, 07:34 AM	I belive the Marshal might be a fun class to add. Marshal Base Class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) I think it would be a good addition. :D
icnivad 08-03-06, 12:43 PM	The way I see and read it, the player can select the primary class of the follower/minion. It's like putting an add on craigslist for an expert mechanic. You're not likely to get any "well, I'm a pretty good lawyer, but I fixed my lawnmower once when it ran out of gass, so here I am! what do you need me to do?" You're more likely to get someone who has been working on cars for years and maybe took a comunity college class or two in law.
BloodSpill 01-12-07, 09:34 AM	The thrallherd is a weird and wonderful class. But can anyone share their experiences playing one in an actual campaign? I'd very much like to hear some stories the good parts and the difficulties.
Lokiyn 01-12-07, 12:54 PM	Hmm the most recent thrallherd i've played was an Aristocrat 1/Shaper 5/Thrallherd 4 near the end. The main issue with this was a simple micromanagment of the followers and the tendency of them to be a little, Over enthusiastic. I lost a cohort because he thought that my command in the heat of battle, "kill them all" ment he should go kill all the other enemies he could get his hands on, by the time we found him he was dead surounded by piles of low level warriors. The followers wound up being background tools, i believe the most they ever did was a causual "i wish that guy was dead" (an enemy general) which led to the followers forming several small groups in an attempt to kill the general and please thier dominator. Thrallherds vary dramatically from dm to dm. I play as, you have total control, but the minions retain independent thought (if you tell them to do something they won't blindly do it, they will try and figure out the best way to please thier dominator) This leads to problems as casual comments can get taken out of context leading to havoc. Other play as leadership where they come and go as they please and you ask people to do things rather than command. That takes away a lot of the flavor of the class, and contradicts the descriptions of the minions but its semi valid. In this case dump the class and take leadership with extra followers. Or there is the robot mentality where the minions follow your orders to the letter. Remember that unless you have your followers return to thier normal work, you will need to employ them, spending 1-5 sp per day per person to feed them (based on the price of meals, you could cheapen that with .3 copper per day to buy flour for each individual for flatbread, and have those with the skill hunt for meat to stave off Kwashiorkor
Syrkres 01-12-07, 02:57 PM	You want to add another fairly easy way to enter the class, Erudite. A Erudite can enter the class by 5th level thus can acquire Thrallheard. Because an Erudite can acquire Discipline powers 1 level lower than thier highest learnable power they can learn Mindlink (1st level Discipline) when they could learn 2nd level powers, so at 3rd level. The only down side is Diplomacy is a cross-class skill, thus it costs 8 skill points to get the required 4 ranks needed to enter the class, but still not that hard being that most will have a high INT, thus a large allotment of skill points.
widow 01-12-07, 07:09 PM	I think this would work well if you don't mind being tainted. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a You can get even more tainted minions. I am currently playing a curst thrallherder with undead leadership. This class was a nice add since undead are considered to be tainted anyway and are immune to taint.
BenSan 01-12-07, 07:53 PM	Can a Thrallherd take advantage of the leadership feats from Heroes of Battle?
HaikenEdge 02-10-07, 09:51 AM	I think the guide should probably mention that Thrallherd is something of an all-or-none class; for those PCs who just want easily replacable thralls & believers, a single level dip is probably enough. Generally, I don't see the class abilities useful enough to burn saves & BAB on, so the only reason I'd ever go all the way to Thrallherd 10 was if I wanted that second thrall. Personally, as a DM, I'd just let my players build their own thralls; because they mostly play evil characters, they could easily kill their thralls until they get one they want, so, just to save human lives, I reason that Thrallherds "call" those that they desire; that is, they might not get a specific person they want, but they can get the ones with abilities they want.
Galamere 08-09-07, 11:54 PM	I'm a little confused as to one of your suggestions, you pointed out that the Mindbender was a good mix, which I agree, however you state that you can do this at lvl 6, do a lvl dip then return, however to take this PRC you must have and Arcane caster lvl of 5, I may be missing something, but how do you hit that by the lvl you mention? Edit: Bah, NM, I saw the potential adaptation in the book for this, so if your DM green lights it then your good, sorry again, I rarely read that text block.
mod5000 08-10-07, 12:22 AM	You can quickly get a caster level of five by taking a single level of an arcane class (say, Beguiler might be nice in this case) followed by taking Practiced Manifester.
Tedronai 08-11-07, 04:23 AM	Hello I recently started playing a Telepath Thrallherd. While our fist match ended in the death of all the believers and my thrall I now have to acquire new ones. To make a long story short this is causing a bone of contention among the players. It developed into a full blow out argument and while our Dm is open-minded to all this she is also taking into consideration what the others are saying. So I have a few questions. In your guide you write that the Dm can pick classes. Is this a written rule somewhere or something you came up with by your own interpretation? I’ve looked over the Thrallherd and Leadership entries and I didn’t see that mentioned anywhere. The reason I ask is that you could ask for a level 7 fighter, but end up getting and 1st level fighter 6 level bard. What would be the point of such a Thrall? While she has agreed to not use NPC classes I still find this to be a bit ridicules. Also feat selection. If the Dm chooses she would pick feats that have nothing to do with the Thrall’s class or feats that don’t really benefit it. What I am asking is where is it written in a published WoTC book. Basically a rule book that the DM gets to choose this info for the Thralls and Believers? One last questions. There are no game mechanics that describe how the en thralling procedure takes place, (no will saves and so on). Is this an over sight by WoTC? While obviously you won’t be able to take a thrall with a higher level then you, but what about high will saves or high intelligence or wisdom? While your argument for mentally pliable sounds reasonable and correct to me. By the same argument it could be taken any which way you would like to look at it. Mentally pliable could me anything you want it to mean. While I am really enjoying playing this class I cant help but see some battleship size holes in the meat and reasoning behind it all. Valor If you seriously think that your DM is going to be THAT much of a fool, just use all the crappy believers (as well as any crappy thrall) as walking potions via Hostile Empathic Transfer until some start showing up that don't suck. Your alignment might shift to evil, but just by sheer random chance eventually you'll start accumulating non-crappy minions which you can then use according to your new alignment to conquer and oppress the entire campaign world. Just a note of interest, if you do manage to wrangle control of your thrall/believers' builds, give all of them manifesting classes and Psicrystal Affinity. Psicrystals gain HD. Creatures that gain HD gain feats. Any Psicrystal with 6 or more HD can gain Leadership. I suggest you try to get a Thrallherd as your Thrall for maximum pyramid scheme goodness. Have the Psicrystals do the same with their Cohorts. By 20th Level you can have THOUSANDS of Psicrystals, HUNDREDS of thralls, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of believers You are the ruler of a nation, and every one of that nation's citizens is either a thrall, believer, cohort, follower, or party member (council of advisors to the king). Pre-emptive justice for all the crap put into the CompPsi
brothersutek 08-12-07, 09:32 AM	Just a note of interest, if you do manage to wrangle control of your thrall/believers' builds, give all of them manifesting classes and Psicrystal Affinity. Psicrystals gain HD. Creatures that gain HD gain feats. Any Psicrystal with 6 or more HD can gain Leadership. I suggest you try to get a Thrallherd as your Thrall for maximum pyramid scheme goodness. Have the Psicrystals do the same with their Cohorts. By 20th Level you can have THOUSANDS of Psicrystals, HUNDREDS of thralls, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of believers You are the ruler of a nation, and every one of that nation's citizens is either a thrall, believer, cohort, follower, or party member (council of advisors to the king). Pre-emptive justice for all the crap put into the CompPsi +++ Ha ha ha! That sir is an awesome idea! :clap: :emp: +++ In my playing/running of thrallherds I wouldn't allow the player to chose anything for his/her thrall but they do have complete physical/mental control of them. This is to remove the "I have 100 psion slaves" that would happen if they got to chose. Most of the low level thralls are commoners(there are a lot of those buggers around) and only at higher levels do the really good character classes show up. The way I see it if you were going to have to play the leadership game then the class would be called "followerherd" or "cohortherd" but its not and it is called "thrallherd". :twocents:
AntiDjinn 08-12-07, 01:28 PM	For the DM looking to challenge (or just annoy) the PC thrallherd, it should be noted that nowhere does it say, or even imply, that thralls are in any way bound to each other. The only thing they will automatically have in common is service to the thrallherd. Jealousy, rivalries, and differences of opinion as to the best methods by which to execute the master's edicts may arise. In fact, if you look at real world cults with single charismatic leaders, those higher in the organization frequently vied for the leader's attention. In all cases, thralls will have the thrallherds best interest at heart, but may not feel that others in the group are as devoted, and each probably wants his "face time" with the master. This means you can make the PC spend RP time and even resources managing the politics of his group. Also, thralls do not have to be micromanaged, which can be good and bad. If you are a psion-thrallherd and one of your cohorts is a rogue, when you send him on a mission he will do things the rogue way. You don't need to tell him exactly how to get things done, which is good. You don't know a thing about picking locks, sneaking, or the ways of the streets; if you were to give detailed instructions you would only hinder him. On the other hand, sometimes your thrall's way of doing things may produce results you didn't expect. Sometimes while honestly trying to follow your commands and ensure your safety, they may screw-up. It should also be noted that your status as master does not transfer to the rest of your party. They may acknowledge that the party is important to the master's well-being and are considered his friends, but they are not bound in service to any but their master. If thralls perceive that the rest of the PCs are disrespectful to their master or that their actions put him in danger, then they may decide to do something about it.
Mkire 08-13-07, 04:10 PM	this is wonderful and awesomeness, now if only we can get this pinned/stickied.
pascalnz 08-14-07, 09:57 PM	wow, in a party with a necrocarnate, the essentia would be crazy, mm yummy believers:P
Nargrakhan 10-08-07, 11:03 AM	Heh... I just finished a campaign with an elan who retired with psion 10/thrallherd 10. Long story short, my late level thralls were twin(cest) female erinyes - with maxed fiend of corruption PrC of course. Many lulz were had as they used their fiendish grafts and wish abilities to further empower an already powerful master. :D The three of us – through every imaginable form of domination, corruption, seduction, and blackmail – ultimately brought an entire kingdom to its knees via politicking and endless clandestine socials. When the other PC's finally figured out my true evil and intentions (the players knew something was up... but not their characters), it was far too late. A new villainous mastermind was born – and the GM asked if he could use him as a "in the background" NPC in the next campaign. :) Ah... good times...
Avenger314 10-08-07, 02:11 PM	I had a fun Thrallherd in an Eberron campaign. Kalashtar Kinetecist 6/thrallherd 3. Kalashtar gave me mindlink, kineticist gave me blasty goodness, and thrallherd gave me my cohort and some good mental powers. the DM gave me a psychic warrior, which was fine. It was fun. The DM had me go a session or two without any followers, which is what led to my character's downfall. Even with all my buffs actives, I failed a Fort Save vs. a save-or-die-in-3-rounds ability against a demon/angel/evil (some esoteric hybrid in a supplment). Next thign I new, I saw my herat beating in the monster's hand as he gave me one last chance to surrender. I instead opted to throw everything I had into one last Mind Thrust, dealing a nice 63 damage to him before collapsing. (Ironically, it turned out that we forgot to calculate the bonus from Prayer; I shouldv'e survived. Ah well). When we got out of the dungeon, we then found all the followers saying "We were following the call of the Avenger, but it died. What happened?" He did make one more appearance. When the nasties from the Xoriat Realm invaded, my character appeared as an NPC ghost to lead his cult and delay the invaders. A particularly cool twist is that my character's ghost appeared wearing the armor of a Warforged that had been in my party. Anyhoo, I highly recommend the Thrallherd. It's better to get in by means other than being a Telepath, since you can have a variety of different abilities at your disposal. Good thread!
Nargrakhan 10-08-07, 08:26 PM	Hmmm... here's a request to all you min-max experts. :) What are the best feats for a Thrallherd? What do you recommend for squeezing the most outta this already powerful class? :D
The_Shaman 10-09-07, 04:39 AM	There's something I wanted to check here about the twofold master. It says that the ECL of your second thrall is limited by your thrallherd level, in pre-epic this means an ECL of 8. Is that right? Because it's not much better than the believers you get by then.
crizhII 10-09-07, 08:26 AM	to the thrallherd's level minus 2 Generally taken to mean character level. It certainly does not explicitly mean Class level in Thrallherd. In that case the word 'thrallherd' would certainly have been singular and almost certainly Capitalized and followed by the word 'Class'. It 'can' be interpreted as 'Thrallherd Class level' but does not 'have' to be and I'm sure most people here would agree that would be a particularly mean-spirited interpretation of the text.
crizhII 10-09-07, 08:30 AM	The discussion on page 1 about 'flavour' text. Who's sig has the quote about flavour text? I've always liked that. I've yet to see any rules evidence to support the idea that 'flavour text' officially exists and/or carries any less weight than any other text in the 'rules.' If the text is in a 'rulebook' then it's 'rules', endof.
TheKeyofE 10-09-07, 09:16 AM	One thing to note about the Thrallherd is that if you enter the class at level 6, you only need a charisma modifier of +0 to keep your thrall at max level (your level -1). Actually, your maximum thrall level will grow faster than your level. For example, a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 10 with a charisma of 10 will have a leadership score of 25, for a lvl 17 thrall, even though the thrall is limited to level 14 (thrallherd's level -1). So basically the only thing that charisma is good for is more believers and a higher diplomacy check. In other words, you can neglect charisma without reducing your thrall(s). This is assuming, of course, that you take all ten class levels. If you just dip for one level, you'll need to boost your charisma modifier to +3 or +4 to keep your thrall maxed.
DracoPhoenix 10-09-07, 09:21 AM	Can someone explain to me how a Ftr 1 / Bard 6 is considered a fighter for the purposes of calling for a Thrall / cohort etc? He has a level of fighter yes. But more than half his other class levels and most likely his approach on life / adventure is decidedly, uh, bard-ish. One might even go as far to say he's a bard with a dip level of fighter. Can players pull a similar stunt when rolling characters? For the guy who wanted arcane but it was his turn to play cleric : "He's got a level of cleric - so he's a cleric! (and 6 of wizard (blaster spec'd))" 6/5 split, if the 5 was suitably combat orientated / supporting, yes. 1 level of fighter / 6 something non tanking, no. Other wise, good guide, should be interesting when you're able to fill it out a bit more. (Btw, if you're a Telepath with Mind seed, LE and a strong sense of loyalty to yourself, you could turn all your followers into, well, you. :))
crizhII 10-09-07, 02:48 PM	Wealth creation. Followers aren't hugely useful in combat but have many other ancillary roles which can be of enormous benefit to a PC, particularly one who does a lot of Crafting. Schemes for generating cash with low level followers offer all sorts of opportunity for creative lunacy. My current favourite is Handle Animal. A decent level 1 Druid can turn a 200gp Heavy Horse into a 400gp Heavy Warhorse in just six weeks which is a profit of 67gp a week. Much better than crafting which is likely to net about 4gp a week. Five or ten followers like that could allow you to create some really kick-ass items with the cash they create whilst your off saving the world...
Avenger314 10-09-07, 03:10 PM	I'd also say they're great as contacts. (In games I run, I tend to treat followers more as contacts in towns). They supply information, giving big bonuses to Gather Info. This can be something to the effect of "We're new in town... Let me talk to one of my friends so he can recommend a good inn at a discount and tell us where to buy equipment". Or, more character-developed, like "I need to train as an X. Who do I contact?" Or even, "We need to locate the Amulet of Kralinth so we can dispel the shield around Demetrios Varakstas' castle. My friend the sage may be able to point us in the right direction"
DracoPhoenix 10-10-07, 03:44 AM	In intrigue plots / Evil campaigns, I would have though spy networks would have been a good use for them.
cyberpunk 10-10-07, 11:39 PM	what about the power assimilate, it's great for a thrallherd, you have a constant supply of willing believers who want nothing more than to become one with you, and that translates to +4 to all your stats, that's awesome
Lokathor 10-12-07, 01:29 PM	To enter the class, Hidden Talent (Mindlink) is probably better than Expanded Knowledge unless you want a lot of other feats that are only available at 1st level. If the DM allows it. As for a money making follower, Clerics with the Commerce domain get a +10 bonus on their profession checks to earn a living (but not other profession checks). So, the clerics taking 10 would have 10 +10(domain) +4(ranks) +3(skill focus) +2 (stat of 14+, reasonable for a cleric NPC) = 29. Half of that per week makes 14.5gp a week. Worse than a druid, but if your DM doesn't like you just having 100 followers all selling horses (nonsense about "saturating the market" or things like that) then you can resort to Commerce Clerics.
crizh 10-12-07, 02:58 PM	(nonsense about "saturating the market" or things like that) I was more worried with the destabilizing effect it might have on the global military situation. In many campaigns units of heavy horse consist of no more than a couple of dozen knights except in the most populous cities. Massed units of several hundred might be a bit likely to cause neighboring countries to intervene to stop you. I'm suddenly reminded of Lord of War with Nic Cage, not your traditional image of Druids... Although now that I come to think of it, what better way to destroy civilization but to supply the weapons that would allow it to destroy itself?
Saragon42 10-12-07, 05:42 PM	Here's a Thrallherd build I came up with to try to take advantage of the Thrallherd's believers. Unfortunately, it's really only a dip into Thrallherd. Human Psion 2 / Wizard 3 / Thrallherd 2 / Cerebremancer 10 / [Psion or Wizard] 3 LEVEL ML CL CLASS FEATS 01 01 00 Telepath Psicrystal (Aesthete or Sage), Imprint Stone, Practiced Manifester, <open> 02 02 01 Wizard Scribe Scroll, Legendary Artisan 03 03 03 Wizard Practiced Spellcaster 04 04 04 Wizard 05 05 05 Telepath 06 06 06 Thrallherd <open> 07 07 07 Thrallherd 08 08 08 Cerebremancer 09 09 09 Cerebremancer <open> 10 10 10 Cerebremancer 11 11 11 Cerebremancer 12 12 12 Cerebremancer <open> 13 13 13 Cerebremancer 14 14 14 Cerebremancer 15 15 15 Cerebremancer <open> 16 16 16 Cerebremancer 17 17 17 Cerebremancer 18 * * Wizard or Psion <open> 19 * * Wizard or Psion (Item creation or metamagic feat, if Wizard) 20 * * Wizard or Psion (Item creation or metapsionic feat, if psion) Leadership score at character level 20, assuming CHA 10, is 22. Work, work, work -- and use the souls of your followers to do it. The Book of Vile Darkness offers rules for the benefits of sacrificing a creature to an evil deity, and one of the potential benefits is virtual XP or gold to put into manufactured magic/psionic items. With a maxed-out Knowledge: Religion and a nigh-infinite supply of believers (who won't leave you for sacrificing one of their number), this build gives you someone able to make high-quality psionic or magical items at a much-reduced cost to himself. With a Cleric cohort to cast divine spells for you (and if that's a straight cleric, that includes miracle), practically any spell or power would be available to him. If the last three levels are wizard levels, you end up able to cast 8th-level spells at CL 20 and manifest 7th-level powers at CL 17; the reverse holds true if the last three levels are telepath levels. Wizard is probably preferred, given the relative abundance of magic items, but Telepath offers some unique advantages of its own. Normally, this would provide for a very limited selection of item creation feats; sure, he's a versatile crafter, but a ten-level Thrallherd with a psionic artificer and an artificer as thralls would be able to make many more items. Progressing as a Telepath (besides getting us the needed mindlink) adds that versatility with psychic reformation. If you've specialized as a wizard for the last three levels, just back up two levels and pick a different item creation feat for 100 XP; if you're a Telepath, you only have to spend 50 XP and you get to re-pick the psionic powers you've learned, letting you make pretty much any psionic item allowed by your discipline. Theoretically, one could add more levels of Thrallherd instead of wizard or psion, but there's no good reason for it: A +6 cloak of charisma (which this character could make himself) will max out your pre-epic Leadership/Thrallherd score at character level 20, and taking Thrallherd instead of Psion will deny you that last item creation feat. (I'm AFB right now, but I'll come back and flesh out the actual mechanics of Sacrifice and how it helps you craft. If I can track down the information on using souls to offset XP / GP costs too, I'll throw that in.) I personally would love to throw this guy into a game as a NPC. Just think of the effect this man would have as a wandering craftsman: He shows up at a village selling wares tainted with evil, and when he leaves some of the townsfolk leave with him; but the size of his entourage never seems to change, and when he comes back around some of the folks who left don't come back with him...
Lokathor 10-17-07, 11:10 PM	So, question: The Thrallherd class says that the Thrallherd(Ex) abilty is "like Leadership, but with these differences..." and goes on to list what changes. It mentions nothing about the specifics (race, class, etc) of what thralls and believers you attract, so that should remain the same. Leadership then says "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs.", and the PC can select the Race, Class, and Alignment of his Cohort. So, can a Thrallherd attract believers of only a certain race if he wants? Or are believers completely up to DM randomness and you just have to shoo off or kill the ones you don't want until you get "good" ones?
crizh 10-18-07, 06:46 AM	You're right. Followers inherit all the properties of cohorts except level. Ergo they may be defined by the PC to the same extent.
turalisj 10-18-07, 07:24 AM	What about the believers (followers). The Epic Level Handbook states that followers are usually warriors, experts or commoners, does this apply to believers? When you take the Leadership feat or Thrallherd PrC, do you pick your followers and believers or does the DM roll randomly? Epic handbook is also 3.0, where followers HAD to be one of the npc classes. I had a thrallherd that had an army of psions, each one opperating in a four man cell amoung major cities.
Lokathor 10-18-07, 07:59 AM	Warforged Believers that can farm 3 times as much space in a day (since they have 3x 8-hour shifts) can be quite the first step towards building a stable civilization. Even if they only farm 16 hours and then whittle for 8 or something, you don't feed them in the process. Very cool stuff for the lowish level Thrallherd. Higher level Thrallherds can of course create some kind of 1 hd construct on the cheap. Give it int 1 so that knows just enough to manage crops by itself. Make hundreds of the buggers, they're probably only 100gp each or so. Then build a utopia society where your people don't have to work, they can just eat grapes and wear white togas all day.
turalisj 10-19-07, 07:11 AM	How my DM usualy goes about it, is he randomly selects npc's from a few mile radius. Of course, when you enter the wizard academy.... :P
p9522935 10-29-07, 07:04 AM	I am interested in making a character who is both a Thrallherd and a Dweomerkeeper (with the supernatural spell as seen in the web supplement). The ultimate goal is to be able to use the BoVD to sacrifice believers and craft the xp into intelligent golems, and then use the dweomerkeeper's supernatural ability to make mindlinks with the intelligent golems permanent without xp expenditure. I thought it might be cool to start with the Ardent or Divine Mind from the Complete Psionic. (The Ardent and Divine Mind both get bonus power points from wisdom, which is not necessarily the best synergy with arcane spells,but I don't know of any Intelligence-based divine casters(except Archivist from Heroes of Horror) or Wisdom-based arcane casters.) The Telepath synergizes with Sorcerer, because they're both Charisma-based. From the SRD: The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. Does this mean that Ardents and Divine Minds count as divine casters for purposes of the Dweomerkeeper class? Does this mean the Ardent mantle of Magic satisfies the Dweomerkeeper Domain of Magic requirement? Likewise, does this mean that psions and telepaths are arcane casters for purposes of qualifying? Does this mean that Thrallherd's requirement of "manifester level 5th" could be satisfied by "manifester 1st/caster 4th"? I think it could mean all of those could be true, but I think those are the first points of potential dispute with DMs who would disallow this build. So first, let's assume strong psionics-magic transparency. Start with an Ardent who takes Life and Magic mantles. The Life mantle allows manifesting at level 2, meaning both of the two power points per day can be spent on it. The 2-point power from Life is "Back from the Brink" which is often not as useful as the 1-point power, "Touch of Health," but arguably, with strong psionics-magic transparency, a 1st-level divine caster is casting a 2nd-level divine spell, which might be handy when qualifying for prestige classes like Cerebremancer. Assume the character gets Diplomacy skill, the Inquisitor feat, and Spellcraft/Psicraft. Apparently there is an "Expanded Knowledge" feat by which non-telepaths can get mindlink, but that requires Manifester Level 3rd. In any event, both Dweomerkeeper and Thrallherd require Spellcraft at 8 ranks, which means they can only be done after level 5. Assuming Psion (Shaper) counts as an arcane caster, one could do Ardent 1/Shaper 4/ Thrallherd 1/Dweomerkeeper 1. That takes the character to level 7. Assuming the psionic and magic requirements are very separate, one could do Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Dweomerkeeper 1/Psion 5/Thrallherd 1. That takes the character to level 12. Or perhaps one could do Ardent 1/Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 1/Thrallherd 1/Dweomerkeeper 1. (Perhaps a human could take Precocious Apprentice, and do Ardent1/Wizard 1/Cerebremancer X...) Alternatively, perhaps Sorcerer 1/Telepath 1/Cerebremancer 3 is the proper starting point, followed by Thrallherd/Favored Soul/Dweomerkeeper. Taking a page from The Cheater of Mystra, by Neonsamurai and Funny Slaughter: one can take a Cleric 1 and give it the Magical Training feat, thus qualifying for Dweomerkeeper but not for Cerebremancer. However Cleric 1/Seer 4 would be a lead-in to Thrallherd, and Psychic Theurge allows progression of Cleric and Seer powers. Are there any real rulings on what the requirements are? Thanks.
CrimsonDeath 12-22-07, 12:33 AM	How about Wilder with Exanded Knowledge (Mindlink) to maximize the usefulness of a decent to High Wis (needed for Inquisitor) I'm not sure how a high Wisdom helps the Wilder. However, I can see how a Thrallherd would benefit from a high Charisma. It lets you start off with more Believers, it lets you enter the class later and still have your Thralls show up at their maximum level, and it makes Charmed creatures more likely to cooperate. Plus, the class gives up two manifester levels and requires a specific power to get in, but grants two powers known, so the power-starved Wilder breaks even more or less. Educated Wilder 7/Thrallherd 10/Anarchic Initiate 3 might be a good skeleton. Trade Volatile Mind for Expanded Knowledge: Mindlink at level 5 (just in time to get Thrallherd at level 6), and at level 20 you wind up with Wild Surge +4. True, it requires 12 cross-class skill ranks between two skills, but you can pull it off with 10 Int and still have a decent Psicraft check in the late levels. But then, you don't need all ten levels of Thrallherd unless you want the second Thrall. Even starting with 16 Cha, you can max out your Leadership score by level 13 (Wilder 5/Thrallherd 8). The later your comfortable with a Leadership score of 25, the fewer Thrallherd levels you can take. Educated Wilder 7/Thrallherd 6/Anarchic Initiate 7 could be pretty good in this case. You get Charm and Dominate from Thrallherd, and between Wilder and Anarchic Initiate you wind up with Wild Surge +5. (The sixth level of Thrallherd is mostly there because it's better than the eighth level of Wilder, and you need 13 levels of something for eight cross-class ranks of Knowledge: The Planes; you could sub in a level of Mindbender if you can scrape together the skill points-- not too hard with a Human.)
nobodez_here 12-22-07, 12:46 AM	[tangent alert] I while back, there was a "living" campaign in my area called "Cheesy Munchkin Adventures". You could create a character using any printed resources from a variety of publishers. The character I made (but was unable to play because of timing) was for the campaign finale. He was a Telepath 5/Thrallherd 10/Mindbender 1/Telepath +4. Because of the insane feat access, he had six "cohorts" of 18th level, and three "cohorts" at 17th level. Each of them was based on the same build as him, as were their "followers". In the end, I computed it to be about 6 to 7 billion NPCs that were within six degrees of separation from the PC. The only problem was that I had to equip them with my money (which is why they all had two flaws, sacred vow, and vow of poverty). It would have been so cool. Of course, without the 3rd party/d20 past rules, you can still have a nice pyramid scheme going on at 20th level. (two 17th level thralls, who each have a 16th and 15th level thrall, the 16th level thralls each have a 15th and 14th level thrall. The 15th level thralls each have a 14th level thrall, so on and so on down until you each the 6th level thralls who only have 5th level thralls and no additional thralls after that.)
jbsaff 12-24-07, 12:36 AM	Quick question. The maximum level of the thrall you can attract includes racial HD and LA, correct? For example, a Wilder 5/Thrallherd 3 of average Charisma could attract a Centaur PsyWar 1 (4 racial HD, 2 LA, 1 Class Level = ECL7).
TheKeyofE 12-24-07, 01:18 AM	Quick question. The maximum level of the thrall you can attract includes racial HD and LA, correct? For example, a Wilder 5/Thrallherd 3 of average Charisma could attract a Centaur PsyWar 1 (4 racial HD, 2 LA, 1 Class Level = ECL7). Yes.
cnahumck 12-26-07, 06:16 PM	Ok, as I am reading this, I realize that there are varying ideas of what believers can and cannot be asked/compelled/told what to do, so ... What is the general consensus about it? If I told them to slam their bodies into the castle wall to break through it, would they? The reason I ask is that I saw I am Legend last night, and was thinking about the leader virus zombie and his total control of the others to the point of his followers destroying themselves by over extending themselves. Also, I saw in the first post that the Mindbender class is good for a one level dip, but with the Mind's eye expanded telepath variant class ability, you can avoid that all together. You give up a feat, but who cares.