Prestige Class—Psionic Darkmaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Prestige Class—Psionic Darkmaster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Glathil
07-31-07, 03:07 PM Removed. Close thread.
jbsaff
07-31-07, 03:41 PM Normally I would suggest putting the lost manifester level early in the PrC, to reduce the urge to dip. However, you have situated several of the class features (improved will, AC, etc...) as having maximum benefit at level 10, so this may not be a problem. Now, if you put both class abilities as starting at level one and moved the lost manifester level to the first level, I think that would improve the whole.

You say that the DarkMaster is most at home fighting in melee, but I see at least as much of a mage-slayer as a fighter, given the Mind of Shards ability. Of course, given touch attack powers, you could go for either group.

What armor bonus type does Darkmatter give? Natural seems to fit the flavor, but that might get out of hand.

Them's my initial views. I'll take another look later and see if anything else strikes me.
CrimsonDeath
07-31-07, 03:56 PM I don't like the idea of percentage-based damage reduction-- that seems like the sort of thing that went out of style when we moved on to Third Edition. I'm also not a fan of returning a percentage of the damage you receive, since most abilities that deal damage to creatures that attack you either reflect that attack (Spell Turning) or deal a certain amount of damage regardless of the attacker (Fire Shield).

Nevertheless, it looks like an interesting idea.
Lord_Glathil
07-31-07, 04:17 PM JBSaff: Interesting idea to change the lost caster level to 1st instead of 10th. I don't forsee problems with dipping: one cannot gain the full effect of either Darkmatter or Mind of shards with just a single level. In this case, it's pretty much you get what you pay for. That said, changing the order of those would encourage 100% commitment to the class.

The Darkmaster could be a mage slayer, but only if the enemy had only mind affecting spells. A good damage spell set could put the Darkmaster down.

Armor type was specified to be natural, edited just moments before you posted.

CrimsonDeath: It's true, percentages aren't for the calculator-hating crowd, but they do scale effectively out to any range. Since the Darkmaster has only two special skills, their scalability is an important issue so that the class isn't rendered useless late game.

Thanks for the posts. Hope that answers your questions.

Best Regards,
Lord Glathil
Malcaor
07-31-07, 05:45 PM I REALLY like this class. I think I am going to use it for a BBEG now, becuase it has cool writen all over it.
Lord_Glathil
07-31-07, 05:50 PM Wow, thank you =]

Edit: You may want to give him invulnerability to "fort save or die" effects, due to the inherent lack of fortitude save on the Darkmaster itself.
CrimsonDeath
07-31-07, 06:58 PM CrimsonDeath: It's true, percentages aren't for the calculator-hating crowd, but they do scale effectively out to any range. Since the Darkmaster has only two special skills, their scalability is an important issue so that the class isn't rendered useless late game.
It's not that I don't want to do the calculations. It's that nothing else does this, in any way at all. I'm all for having it scale. Maybe have DR X/- where X is twice the "rank" of the effect, and have the effect reflect 1d6 damage per two "ranks", or something. (Note: Those numbers were just off the top of my head; feel free to change them.)

If you still think the percentages work better, you can stick with them. Just keep in mind that it's a capability that exists, basically, in a vacuum unsupported by existing mechanics. As such, it will be difficult to balance.
Lord_Glathil
07-31-07, 07:10 PM My apologies, Crimson, I did not mean to imply that you were unwilling or inable to calculate.

My reason for using percentages is that it scales exactly to the situation. Weak opponents won't be obliterated by a percentage damage return, as opposed to a "deal X damage to melee attackers" form of shield. Strong opponents, on the other hand, will get damage returned in proportion to their power.

So, translation: I may be wrong, but I'm stickin' with it ;) However, that doesn't mean I'm unwilling to listen to others' ideas that use supported mechanics and retain the scalability.
jbsaff
07-31-07, 07:34 PM Generally, you go up against challenges that are appropriate for your level (the basis of the CR system). Sure, sometimes you get a fight higher or lower, but the majority are appropriate for your party's level. That being said, you could make it something like what CrimsonDeath suggested, because you are going to use an amount of resources that makes sense for what you are facing. You won't just put up a rank two if you are going up against the BBEG's melee meatshield; you're going to go all the way. In the same way, you aren't going to overchannel (or wild surge) this power up to the maximum rank possible when the enemy is a couple of goblins or kobolds.

Generally, it seems like "scaling" in D&D is achieved through number of dice rolled, rather than a preset percentage. It means that every so often, the goblin will die from touching you and the Lvl 15 Barbarian Half-Orc will barely take a scratch. Sounds a bit like life, doesn't it?
vahju
07-31-07, 10:54 PM How does the "dark matter" ability compare to damage reduction? I know how the calculations are suppose to work but does it work against weapons, spells, and psionics.

What type of damage is returned? In case the enemy has some form of damage reduction.

Still not sure the syntax in the "dark matter" ability is correct because I had a hard time reading it. But I think the gist of this is the PC casts dark matter and they get a AC bonus plus returns some damage when hit by an enemy in melee.

Seems like Psy Warrior can attain this by 5th level with only 1 manifester level loss. Not bad.

Just wondering if you should post both options for dark matter (percentage and DR). This way those DMs and or Players that don't like the non standard percentage option have another SRD way of playing the class.
Lord_Glathil
07-31-07, 11:28 PM Thank you very much for bringing up those points, Vahju.

Ok, damage reduction only works against physical attacks.

Damage return only works for MELEE physical attacks, and does not return bonus damage from sneak attack, critical, etc.

I'd need to run the numbers for an alternative form, but that's a very good idea. Then I can go with the one I like, and other GM's can use the type they prefer.

I will change the original post to reflect these clarifications.
Lord_Glathil
08-13-07, 11:22 AM Ok, back from vacation.

Did some playtesting, and I'm quite pleased with how the class works as a whole. Came up with a few issues, so we worked through some new points on Darkmatter.

Returned damage is magical, since Darkmatter itself is a magical effect. Generally, I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea of some relatively cheap BDR negating the primary skill of a Prestige Class. Since it is a spell, it does flow logically that the returned damage could either be physical or magical.

Minimum returned damage and damage reduced is one. At some of the low ranks of darkmaster, enemies don't hit high enough to bring darkmatter into effect, even rounded up (10% of 4 damage is .4 damage), so we decided to make these minimums to maintain effectiveness at low levels.

After seeing how percentages work, I'm slightly hesitant to create a numbers based one; however, I can't knock it till I try it =P. For those interested in a pure numbers based Darkmatter, CrimsonDeath seemed to be on to something with his idea. "Maybe have DR X/- where X is twice the "rank" of the effect, and have the effect reflect 1d6 damage per two "ranks", or something." So I'll start there, do some playtesting when I can, and see how it goes.
Grimmsfeld
08-15-07, 03:07 AM Uh...just me, or doesn't anyone else notice that the Backfire effect is retardedly powerful? 4/5 powers redirected?! I don't care if it is at level 10, and against a select type of powers, it's a bit massive. Maybe if you make it so the Master has to save successfully? Even then, 80% is still a little excessive. I think maybe topping out at 50% is a little more appropriate.

Also.

You can apparently keep a Rank 10 Darkmatter up all day just by tapping yourself with something relatively non-lethal.
Lord_Glathil
08-15-07, 04:24 PM About Mind of Shards

Touche.

However, you seem to forget:

"Cerebral Immunity (Su): On reaching 9th level, a slayer gains protection from all devices, powers, and spells that influence the mind. This ability shields her against almost all mind-affecting powers and effects (though the slayer can selectively allow powers or spells to affect her). The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to mentally influence a slayer. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused."

This being one of 8 skills the slayer gets. The requirements to enter Darkmaster are at LEAST on par, if not harder, than the Slayer class. Also, one must take the agonizingly pitiful toughness feat. Mind of shards is one of two abilities the Darkmaster has. To balance this, it must be powerful. Also, you seem to think that wizards don't also pack a large selection of nuking capability, something Darkmasters have no protection against whatsoever.

About Darkmatter

Thanks for pointing that out. In all honesty, it could technically work to keep Darkmatter up forever just by sticking yourself with a dagger every now and then, but that's not the spirit of the spell. I'll make sure to add a note once I figure how to word it properly.
jbsaff
08-15-07, 06:06 PM This being one of 8 skills the slayer gets. The requirements to enter Darkmaster are at LEAST on par, if not harder, than the Slayer class.

Oh yes, killing an Illithid is a piece of cake! /sarcasm Don't forget that the SRD version is significantly easier to qualify for without Illithids. I'm not saying that the requirements need to change per se, but be careful about comparing Slayer and Darkmaster.

Also, one must take the agonizingly pitiful toughness feat. Mind of shards is one of two abilities the Darkmaster has. To balance this, it must be powerful. Also, you seem to think that wizards don't also pack a large selection of nuking capability, something Darkmasters have no protection against whatsoever.

Except that, at high levels, the wizard will be hitting you with save-or-die spells. Using spells becomes less about damage and more about eliminating enemies quickly and efficiently. Granted, the Darkmaster with its HD isn't the most durable character on the face of the planet. But nuking is generally a Bad Idea TM unless the character is in major trouble with no way out.

On a contributing vein, what about giving Power Resistence instead of the Backfire ability? Maybe PR = 2*Darkmaster level? I'm not sure what percentage of spells would fail from challenges of appropriate CR. Of course, this assumes transparency. Otherwise, you really need to look at the Occult Slayer from Complete Warrior (if memory serves, I don't own that one). IIRC, that PrC has a similar ability.
Grimmsfeld
08-16-07, 06:19 PM Immunity to mind-affectingenuity effects is quite a bit different than having 30-80% chance for a Reddopsi effect. The question I have, that could bring this back into reasonable scope, is: does Backfire completely redirect the power, or does it effect both you and the manifestor?
jbsaff
08-17-07, 09:45 AM Immunity to mind-affectingenuity effects is quite a bit different than having 30-80% chance for a Reddopsi effect. The question I have, that could bring this back into reasonable scope, is: does Backfire completely redirect the power, or does it effect both you and the manifestor?

Judging by the last bit of this text (emphasis mine)-
As a Darkmaster progresses, his mind becomes stronger, resisting mental effects even more, and even creating the chance that any mind affecting spell will completely backfire upon the caster/manifester that targetted the Darkmaster. Anything requiring a will save or mind affecting in nature may backfire (conversely, any spell that is not mind affecting or requiring a will save bypasses this ability). A backfired spell acts as if the caster/manifester had cast it upon themselves (thus, using their DC's, and damage per level).

It would seem that the Darkmaster is unaffected by the spell/power that was cast on him. Instead, the original caster/manifester is now the new target. How do you say "Death Urge, right back at ya!". Essentially, this is a Reddopsi for only mind-affecting powers and spells.
Lord_Glathil
08-17-07, 01:27 PM JBSaff got it exactly right.

But let me again stress that this is only against mind affecting spells and effects. That's what brings this skill into balance. Simply blasting out a good crystal shard (or similar effect) is going to wreak havoc on a Darkmaster.
Lord_Glathil
09-02-07, 06:46 PM Removed. Close thread.
Lord_Glathil
09-02-07, 06:50 PM Ok, I've written up a numerical version of the Prestige Class. Feel free to ridicule my lack of knowledge when it comes to balance on melee damage return, provided you suggest an alternative ;)

Also, I changed the prestige class so it doesn't have the full BAB XD

The weapon and armor proficiencies are under scrutiny, and might (probably will) change in the future.

Best Regards,
Lord Glathil

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Glathil 07-31-07, 03:07 PM	Removed. Close thread.
jbsaff 07-31-07, 03:41 PM	Normally I would suggest putting the lost manifester level early in the PrC, to reduce the urge to dip. However, you have situated several of the class features (improved will, AC, etc...) as having maximum benefit at level 10, so this may not be a problem. Now, if you put both class abilities as starting at level one and moved the lost manifester level to the first level, I think that would improve the whole. You say that the DarkMaster is most at home fighting in melee, but I see at least as much of a mage-slayer as a fighter, given the Mind of Shards ability. Of course, given touch attack powers, you could go for either group. What armor bonus type does Darkmatter give? Natural seems to fit the flavor, but that might get out of hand. Them's my initial views. I'll take another look later and see if anything else strikes me.
CrimsonDeath 07-31-07, 03:56 PM	I don't like the idea of percentage-based damage reduction-- that seems like the sort of thing that went out of style when we moved on to Third Edition. I'm also not a fan of returning a percentage of the damage you receive, since most abilities that deal damage to creatures that attack you either reflect that attack (Spell Turning) or deal a certain amount of damage regardless of the attacker (Fire Shield). Nevertheless, it looks like an interesting idea.
Lord_Glathil 07-31-07, 04:17 PM	JBSaff: Interesting idea to change the lost caster level to 1st instead of 10th. I don't forsee problems with dipping: one cannot gain the full effect of either Darkmatter or Mind of shards with just a single level. In this case, it's pretty much you get what you pay for. That said, changing the order of those would encourage 100% commitment to the class. The Darkmaster could be a mage slayer, but only if the enemy had only mind affecting spells. A good damage spell set could put the Darkmaster down. Armor type was specified to be natural, edited just moments before you posted. CrimsonDeath: It's true, percentages aren't for the calculator-hating crowd, but they do scale effectively out to any range. Since the Darkmaster has only two special skills, their scalability is an important issue so that the class isn't rendered useless late game. Thanks for the posts. Hope that answers your questions. Best Regards, Lord Glathil
Malcaor 07-31-07, 05:45 PM	I REALLY like this class. I think I am going to use it for a BBEG now, becuase it has cool writen all over it.
Lord_Glathil 07-31-07, 05:50 PM	Wow, thank you =] Edit: You may want to give him invulnerability to "fort save or die" effects, due to the inherent lack of fortitude save on the Darkmaster itself.
CrimsonDeath 07-31-07, 06:58 PM	CrimsonDeath: It's true, percentages aren't for the calculator-hating crowd, but they do scale effectively out to any range. Since the Darkmaster has only two special skills, their scalability is an important issue so that the class isn't rendered useless late game. It's not that I don't want to do the calculations. It's that nothing else does this, in any way at all. I'm all for having it scale. Maybe have DR X/- where X is twice the "rank" of the effect, and have the effect reflect 1d6 damage per two "ranks", or something. (Note: Those numbers were just off the top of my head; feel free to change them.) If you still think the percentages work better, you can stick with them. Just keep in mind that it's a capability that exists, basically, in a vacuum unsupported by existing mechanics. As such, it will be difficult to balance.
Lord_Glathil 07-31-07, 07:10 PM	My apologies, Crimson, I did not mean to imply that you were unwilling or inable to calculate. My reason for using percentages is that it scales exactly to the situation. Weak opponents won't be obliterated by a percentage damage return, as opposed to a "deal X damage to melee attackers" form of shield. Strong opponents, on the other hand, will get damage returned in proportion to their power. So, translation: I may be wrong, but I'm stickin' with it ;) However, that doesn't mean I'm unwilling to listen to others' ideas that use supported mechanics and retain the scalability.
jbsaff 07-31-07, 07:34 PM	Generally, you go up against challenges that are appropriate for your level (the basis of the CR system). Sure, sometimes you get a fight higher or lower, but the majority are appropriate for your party's level. That being said, you could make it something like what CrimsonDeath suggested, because you are going to use an amount of resources that makes sense for what you are facing. You won't just put up a rank two if you are going up against the BBEG's melee meatshield; you're going to go all the way. In the same way, you aren't going to overchannel (or wild surge) this power up to the maximum rank possible when the enemy is a couple of goblins or kobolds. Generally, it seems like "scaling" in D&D is achieved through number of dice rolled, rather than a preset percentage. It means that every so often, the goblin will die from touching you and the Lvl 15 Barbarian Half-Orc will barely take a scratch. Sounds a bit like life, doesn't it?
vahju 07-31-07, 10:54 PM	How does the "dark matter" ability compare to damage reduction? I know how the calculations are suppose to work but does it work against weapons, spells, and psionics. What type of damage is returned? In case the enemy has some form of damage reduction. Still not sure the syntax in the "dark matter" ability is correct because I had a hard time reading it. But I think the gist of this is the PC casts dark matter and they get a AC bonus plus returns some damage when hit by an enemy in melee. Seems like Psy Warrior can attain this by 5th level with only 1 manifester level loss. Not bad. Just wondering if you should post both options for dark matter (percentage and DR). This way those DMs and or Players that don't like the non standard percentage option have another SRD way of playing the class.
Lord_Glathil 07-31-07, 11:28 PM	Thank you very much for bringing up those points, Vahju. Ok, damage reduction only works against physical attacks. Damage return only works for MELEE physical attacks, and does not return bonus damage from sneak attack, critical, etc. I'd need to run the numbers for an alternative form, but that's a very good idea. Then I can go with the one I like, and other GM's can use the type they prefer. I will change the original post to reflect these clarifications.
Lord_Glathil 08-13-07, 11:22 AM	Ok, back from vacation. Did some playtesting, and I'm quite pleased with how the class works as a whole. Came up with a few issues, so we worked through some new points on Darkmatter. Returned damage is magical, since Darkmatter itself is a magical effect. Generally, I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea of some relatively cheap BDR negating the primary skill of a Prestige Class. Since it is a spell, it does flow logically that the returned damage could either be physical or magical. Minimum returned damage and damage reduced is one. At some of the low ranks of darkmaster, enemies don't hit high enough to bring darkmatter into effect, even rounded up (10% of 4 damage is .4 damage), so we decided to make these minimums to maintain effectiveness at low levels. After seeing how percentages work, I'm slightly hesitant to create a numbers based one; however, I can't knock it till I try it =P. For those interested in a pure numbers based Darkmatter, CrimsonDeath seemed to be on to something with his idea. "Maybe have DR X/- where X is twice the "rank" of the effect, and have the effect reflect 1d6 damage per two "ranks", or something." So I'll start there, do some playtesting when I can, and see how it goes.
Grimmsfeld 08-15-07, 03:07 AM	Uh...just me, or doesn't anyone else notice that the Backfire effect is retardedly powerful? 4/5 powers redirected?! I don't care if it is at level 10, and against a select type of powers, it's a bit massive. Maybe if you make it so the Master has to save successfully? Even then, 80% is still a little excessive. I think maybe topping out at 50% is a little more appropriate. Also. You can apparently keep a Rank 10 Darkmatter up all day just by tapping yourself with something relatively non-lethal.
Lord_Glathil 08-15-07, 04:24 PM	About Mind of Shards Touche. However, you seem to forget: "Cerebral Immunity (Su): On reaching 9th level, a slayer gains protection from all devices, powers, and spells that influence the mind. This ability shields her against almost all mind-affecting powers and effects (though the slayer can selectively allow powers or spells to affect her). The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to mentally influence a slayer. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused." This being one of 8 skills the slayer gets. The requirements to enter Darkmaster are at LEAST on par, if not harder, than the Slayer class. Also, one must take the agonizingly pitiful toughness feat. Mind of shards is one of two abilities the Darkmaster has. To balance this, it must be powerful. Also, you seem to think that wizards don't also pack a large selection of nuking capability, something Darkmasters have no protection against whatsoever. About Darkmatter Thanks for pointing that out. In all honesty, it could technically work to keep Darkmatter up forever just by sticking yourself with a dagger every now and then, but that's not the spirit of the spell. I'll make sure to add a note once I figure how to word it properly.
jbsaff 08-15-07, 06:06 PM	This being one of 8 skills the slayer gets. The requirements to enter Darkmaster are at LEAST on par, if not harder, than the Slayer class. Oh yes, killing an Illithid is a piece of cake! /sarcasm Don't forget that the SRD version is significantly easier to qualify for without Illithids. I'm not saying that the requirements need to change per se, but be careful about comparing Slayer and Darkmaster. Also, one must take the agonizingly pitiful toughness feat. Mind of shards is one of two abilities the Darkmaster has. To balance this, it must be powerful. Also, you seem to think that wizards don't also pack a large selection of nuking capability, something Darkmasters have no protection against whatsoever. Except that, at high levels, the wizard will be hitting you with save-or-die spells. Using spells becomes less about damage and more about eliminating enemies quickly and efficiently. Granted, the Darkmaster with its HD isn't the most durable character on the face of the planet. But nuking is generally a Bad Idea TM unless the character is in major trouble with no way out. On a contributing vein, what about giving Power Resistence instead of the Backfire ability? Maybe PR = 2*Darkmaster level? I'm not sure what percentage of spells would fail from challenges of appropriate CR. Of course, this assumes transparency. Otherwise, you really need to look at the Occult Slayer from Complete Warrior (if memory serves, I don't own that one). IIRC, that PrC has a similar ability.
Grimmsfeld 08-16-07, 06:19 PM	Immunity to mind-affectingenuity effects is quite a bit different than having 30-80% chance for a Reddopsi effect. The question I have, that could bring this back into reasonable scope, is: does Backfire completely redirect the power, or does it effect both you and the manifestor?
jbsaff 08-17-07, 09:45 AM	Immunity to mind-affectingenuity effects is quite a bit different than having 30-80% chance for a Reddopsi effect. The question I have, that could bring this back into reasonable scope, is: does Backfire completely redirect the power, or does it effect both you and the manifestor? Judging by the last bit of this text (emphasis mine)- As a Darkmaster progresses, his mind becomes stronger, resisting mental effects even more, and even creating the chance that any mind affecting spell will completely backfire upon the caster/manifester that targetted the Darkmaster. Anything requiring a will save or mind affecting in nature may backfire (conversely, any spell that is not mind affecting or requiring a will save bypasses this ability). A backfired spell acts as if the caster/manifester had cast it upon themselves (thus, using their DC's, and damage per level). It would seem that the Darkmaster is unaffected by the spell/power that was cast on him. Instead, the original caster/manifester is now the new target. How do you say "Death Urge, right back at ya!". Essentially, this is a Reddopsi for only mind-affecting powers and spells.
Lord_Glathil 08-17-07, 01:27 PM	JBSaff got it exactly right. But let me again stress that this is only against mind affecting spells and effects. That's what brings this skill into balance. Simply blasting out a good crystal shard (or similar effect) is going to wreak havoc on a Darkmaster.
Lord_Glathil 09-02-07, 06:46 PM	Removed. Close thread.
Lord_Glathil 09-02-07, 06:50 PM	Ok, I've written up a numerical version of the Prestige Class. Feel free to ridicule my lack of knowledge when it comes to balance on melee damage return, provided you suggest an alternative ;) Also, I changed the prestige class so it doesn't have the full BAB XD The weapon and armor proficiencies are under scrutiny, and might (probably will) change in the future. Best Regards, Lord Glathil