Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crizhII 06-20-07, 07:26 AM	I've been working on a problem I thought I had with the BBEG's of the current scenario I'm running and the super-BBEG at the end of the story arc. First, I'm assuming that 'becomes you in mind' in the text of mind seed will use the same mechanics as Mind Switch. By that I mean that you end up with a synthesised creature that is irrevocably what would have resulted had you used Mind Switch True on it when you were eight levels lower. Your mind, in its body, using the Mind Switch rules to determine inheritance of EX, SU and Sp/Ps abilities. This comes about because I was planning on the BBEG's being Mindseeds of the super-BBEG. As neither were humanoids this was going to require the Metamorphosis/Mind Switch two-step to make the 'seeds' legal targets long enough to implant them. My fear was that as Metamorphosis strips you of many of your racial abilities the super-BBEG would actually lose the ability to manifest Mind Switch. Turns out that Psionics, from class levels and creature Special Abilities, are treated as Psi-like (EPH p65) and therefore are retained when Metamorphed and Mind Switched. Trouble is I'm pretty sure that also means that creatures Spell-like and Psi-like abilities are inherited by a Mind Seed. A Mind Flayer/Telepath 8(17) Mind Seeds Human commoner. You end up with a 1HD human with the Manifesting abilities of a 9th Level Psion and an at will Mind Blast. So what's its CR?
Sarlax 06-20-07, 10:35 AM	By that I mean that you end up with a synthesised creature that is irrevocably what would have resulted had you used Mind Switch True on it when you were eight levels lower. Your mind, in its body, using the Mind Switch rules to determine inheritance of EX, SU and Sp/Ps abilities. I'm afraid they aren't that similar. Seeded creatures do not get your spell-like abilities except those that they can use because of class abilities they now possess. They don't acquire your racial abilities. My fear was that as Metamorphosis strips you of many of your racial abilities the super-BBEG would actually lose the ability to manifest Mind Switch. I can only think of one creature that has Mind Seed as a racial ability, a type of quori in the Eberron setting. Is that what you're dealing with? Otherwise, it's probable the Mind Seed is coming from class abilities, which are retained when you change shape. Trouble is I'm pretty sure that also means that creatures Spell-like and Psi-like abilities are inherited by a Mind Seed. Nope. Just attributes from leveling (class abilities, learned feats, skills, spells, powers, etc.). A Mind Flayer/Telepath 8(17) Mind Seeds Human commoner. You end up with a 1HD human with the Manifesting abilities of a 9th Level Psion and an at will Mind Blast. So what's its CR? It can't use a Mind Blast because that is a racial ability of the Mind Flayer. It only has the class abilities of the mind flayer at 8 levels lower. It's a 9th-level human psion with no other unique abilities, so, by RAW, it should be CR 9.
Lycanthromancer 06-20-07, 10:38 AM	It should get 9 class-based HD, too.
crizhII 06-20-07, 11:22 AM	I'm afraid they aren't that similar. Seeded creatures do not get your spell-like abilities except those that they can use because of class abilities they now possess. They don't acquire your racial abilities. [pinch of salt] I am not trying to be rude. [/pinch of salt] That was an enormously definitive statement with no backup. I didn't find even the slightest shred of support for that position anywhere in the text of either power. Can you provide references to support that ruling?
crizhII 06-20-07, 11:41 AM	It should get 9 class-based HD, too. No dude, this is exactly my point. Mindflayers have a (Ps) Special Attack listed as 'psionic powers' in their stat block. It grants the PP, powers and ML of a 9th level Telepath. It does not grant any class levels or HD. An advanced Illithid with 8 class levels as a Telepath would have 8 Aberation HD plus 8 Telepath HD. Skills and feats would be based of these HD also. However in every other respect it would manifest as a 17th level Telepath. If it used Mind seed the 'daughter' mind would lose all 8 Telepath class levels and would only have as many HD as the donor body. If I am correct in using Mind Switch as a basis for determining inheritance, then it would have all of the donor body's (Ex) racial abilities but none of its (Su) or (Sp/Ps) abilities and it would have all of the parent mind's class abilities, (Sp/Ps) abilities and any (Su) abilities that the new body permits. I'm not sure of any other mechanics for determining inheritance of abilities in 'mindswap' situations. I'm off to read Magic Jar....
Sarlax 06-20-07, 11:49 AM	I am not trying to be rude. That was an enormously definitive statement with no backup. I didn't find even the slightest shred of support for that position anywhere in the text of either power. Can you provide references to support that ruling? No problem. But keep in mind - you only reference one power here. Don't start looking at other powers; there's no basis to reference Mind Switch when reading Mind Seed. When integration is complete (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but the subject’s level is eight lower than your own. (In effect, the subject has received eight negative levels—but these are negative levels that can’t be removed.) The subject does not have any of your physical ability scores or equipment, but does have the Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores you had when you were eight levels lower. The subject also knows the powers you knew when you were eight levels lower. The power pretty clearly delineates what you get: levels and mental ability scores. There's a reason why other powers like Mind Switch specifically state that you retain supernatural and spell-like abilities. Anything beyond what is written is outside the scope of the RAW. You're using Mind Switch rules as a way to expand the power of Mind Seed. If we take that mind blast are transferred, where do we stop? Does the seed of a blink dog psion get dimension door and blink? An ice mephit's summoning abilities? Phasm's alternate forms? Vampiric energy drain and spawn creation? These are all supernatural or spell-like abilities. If you take this path, things rapidly get ridiculous, such as a seeded orc being able to create vampire spawn. One might say, "Well that doesn't work because that's based on negative energy," or that the seed of a phasm "Can't shapechange because that is a physical supernatural ability," etc. Well, there's no such thing in the game rules as "energy supernatural attacks," "physical spell-like abilities," "or mentalistic mind supernatural powers." The only reason one would invent these terms would be to try to make the case that a power like Mind Blast should somehow be assumed as transferable despite having no RAW support.
crizhII 06-20-07, 11:50 AM	If it used Mind seed the 'daughter' mind would lose all 8 Telepath class levels and would only have as many HD as the donor body. Actually that might be nonsense. During Mind Switch you would retain all of your hp's, skills and feats derived from monster HD. Presumably that means you also technically retain the HD also, although their type changes to that of the new body.... :confused:
Sarlax 06-20-07, 11:55 AM	It does not grant any class levels or HD. Except that it does! Again: When integration is complete (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but the subject’s level is eight lower than your own. If it used Mind seed the 'daughter' mind would lose all 8 Telepath class levels and would only have as many HD as the donor body. As quoted above, Mind Seed grants class levels (not manifester levels, "levels"), which include hit dice, skill ranks, and selected feats. If I am correct in using Mind Switch as a basis for determining inheritance, That's the problem. You're reading Mind Seed as if it were somewhere written, "As Mind Switch, except..."
crizhII 06-20-07, 12:23 PM	there's no basis to reference Mind Switch when reading Mind Seed. becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but the subject’s level is eight lower than your own. There is however a need. Like many loosely worded powers in the EPH (metaconcert I'm looking at you) Mindseed does not bother to explicitly define what 'in mind' means. It gives some loose examples (that merely clarify what it means by eight levels less) but is not explicit about the important stuff namely (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp/Ps) SA's and SQ's. All other powers/spells that involve either moving a mind into another body or transforming the body your mind is in are extremely specific about precisely these areas. Mindseed is not. Hence a need to reference the base psionic personality shifting power to see what the baseline is in regards to which of these abilities get transfered and which do not. Well, there's no such thing in the game rules as "energy supernatural attacks," "physical spell-like abilities," "or mentalistic mind supernatural powers." Exactly. An oversight which has led to the absurd complication of countless spells and Special Abilities. Polymorph, Wildshape, Reincarnation, Magic Jar, Mind Switch, the list is extensive and the complications are rife. What exactly, for example, are the physical characteristics necessary for Dragon Breath to carry over in Mind Switch? Lungs? The trouble is that D&D has a dualistic approach to all non-mindless creatures, except perhaps outsiders. Mind and Body are seperate entities and one is able to exist without the other (at least briefly) and one or other is able to be switched about or transformed into something different. That underlying architecture requires that all abilities need to be defined as being generate by mind, body or by both. Inheritance would then be a simple matter to determine and many of these spells/powers would be much shorter and the abuses would dry up overnight. In the end it boils down to this. Does a Mindflayer Mindswitched into a human body get to use its Mindblast and Psionic Powers? Yes it quite clearly and catagorically does. Why, if these abilities are purely products of the creatures mind, would they not also be possesed by a mindseeded version of the same creature?
crizhII 06-20-07, 12:35 PM	It does not grant any class levels or HD. Except that it does! Again: When integration is complete (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but the subject’s level is eight lower than your own. In that quote I am talking about the (Ps) Special Attack named 'psionic powers' listed in the Mindflayer stat-block EPH p204. Creatures with the ability to use powers...are not actually members of a class and do not gain any class abilities unless otherwise specified. The SA 'psionic powers' does not grant any HD or Bonus feats etc.
Sarlax 06-20-07, 12:56 PM	There is however a need. Like many loosely worded powers in the EPH (metaconcert I'm looking at you) Mindseed does not bother to explicitly define what 'in mind' means. It gives some loose examples (that merely clarify what it means by eight levels less) but is not explicit about the important stuff namely (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp/Ps) SA's and SQ's. So what you do is just select another power as the basis and read into that "relationship" the most favorable interpretation? If a power doesn't list an effect, it doesn't have that effect. In the end it boils down to this. Does a Mindflayer Mindswitched into a human body get to use its Mindblast and Psionic Powers? Yes it quite clearly and catagorically does. "Like many loosely worded powers..." "... clearly and catagorically..." Care to connect these two statements? It's loose enough for you to start looking at other powers to get a lot more power out of it than written while simultaneously being categorically clear enough to be beyond all doubt? Why, if these abilities are purely products of the creatures mind, would they not also be possesed by a mindseeded version of the same creature? Because implanting spell-like abilities is not part of of Mind Seed does as written. Creatures with the ability to use powers...are not actually members of a class and do not gain any class abilities unless otherwise specified. Do you realize this interpretation makes your case even worse -no HD or bonus feats, as you've said? Let's put together different pieces of what you've said: ML 17 mindflayer (with its 8 telepath levels) Mind Seeds a commoner. The commoner has the levels (as indicated in the MS power; not manifester levels: actual levels) of the mind flayer when it was eight levels lower. Well, eight levels ago, it had no levels! He will know all the powers the illithid knew then, which includes everything listed in the EPH, but he can't manifest them since he doesn't have the HD, PP, or manifester levels of the original.
crizhII 06-20-07, 01:13 PM	"Like many loosely worded powers..." "... clearly and catagorically..." Care to connect these two statements? OK that's twice you've mis-attributed me. Three times is deliberate in my book. Mindswitch is not loosely worded. A Mindswitched Mindflayer clearly and catagorically retains its Mindblast and Psionic powers from the 'psionic powers' SA. It is Mindseed that is loosely worded and fails to specify how such abilities are inherited.
crizhII 06-20-07, 01:18 PM	He will know all the powers the illithid knew then, which includes everything listed in the EPH, but he can't manifest them since he doesn't have the HD, PP, or manifester levels of the original. The only way it could know those powers would be if it retained the 'psionic powers' SA which also grants it the PP and ML of a 9th level Telepath.
crizhII 06-20-07, 01:26 PM	Because implanting spell-like abilities is not part of of Mind Seed does as written. As written, the target of Mindseed 'becomes you in mind'. If said spell-like abilities are retained by you when your mind is not in your own body then they are an integral part of your mind and they are RAW implanted by Mindseed.
Fafnir 06-20-07, 02:22 PM	You can argue all you want, but what you get is still a commoner with your personality. Sarlax got it right.
Tsuul 06-20-07, 02:42 PM	It lists what you get. Things not listed are not available. If said spell-like abilities are retained by you when your mind is not in your own body then they are an integral part of your mind and they are RAW implanted by Mindseed.That's a leap of logic. Spells (and psionics) notoriously break the "natural order" of things. It wouldn't be magic otherwise.
Sarlax 06-20-07, 03:49 PM	OK that's twice you've mis-attributed me. Three times is deliberate in my book. ... Mindswitch is not loosely worded. A Mindswitched Mindflayer clearly and catagorically retains its Mindblast and Psionic powers from the 'psionic powers' SA. It is Mindseed that is loosely worded and fails to specify how such abilities are inherited. Read all of the sentences you wrote. I didn't mis-attribute anything. Everything is quoted from you and nothing is out of context. Follow my criticism point by point, beginning with your own statements: 1. You assume Mind Seed is unclear (bolded for emphasis, not to quote) because it does not indicate that spell-like abilities are copied. 2. You assume Mind Seed ought to be governed by the mechanics for Mind Switch, which does say spell-like abilities are copied. 3. You declare that it is "clearly and catagorically" the case that a seed of a mind flayer will possess Mind Blast as a spell-like ability. Now, my responses: 1. Mind Seed is written clearly. If a power/spell/ability/feat/skill doesn't list an effect, it does not have that effect. 2. Mind Switch is unrelated to Mind Seed. They are different powers. Neither builds off of the other. It's not a case like Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection or Minor Creation/Major Creation in which the system for one effect is the basis for another effect. If we use your apparent reckoning, we can construct a similar case: Dominate doesn't say you can make very reasonable commands to targets to impose a -1 or -2 penalty to saves, but Suggestion is the closest mind-affecting compulsion to Dominate in effect, and Suggestion does let you make very reasonable commands to impose save penalties, so it's clear that Dominate does as well. 3. Because your two initial assumptions are invalid, your conclusion is invalid as well.
crizhII 06-20-07, 05:00 PM	3. You declare that it is "clearly and catagorically" the case that a seed of a mind flayer will possess Mind Blast as a spell-like ability. Does a Mindflayer Mindswitched into a human body get to use its Mindblast and Psionic Powers? Yes it quite clearly and catagorically does. [/politeness] Read those two quotes again and post something that addresses the fact that a Mindswitched creature retains its (Sp/Ps) abilities.
Fafnir 06-20-07, 05:18 PM	[/politeness] Read those two quotes again and post something that addresses the fact that a Mindswitched creature retains its (Sp/Ps) abilities. [\politeness] No. We don't care about the damned Mindswitch. It's Mindseed we're talking about, and there's no cross references between the two. Stop using faulty arguments to back up your claims, and maybe we'll help you.
crizhII 06-20-07, 05:22 PM	It lists what you get. Things not listed are not available. Well in that case you get eight negative levels that cannot be removed by any means. Your mental stats are reduced to what they were eight levels ago and if your a manifester you lose knowledge of all the powers that you learned in the last eight levels. And nothing else. The fact is the text of Mindseed is ambiguous and full of holes. I was hoping for some reasoned discusion about how it should be played rather than this knee-jerk nonsense.
crizhII 06-20-07, 05:27 PM	[\politeness] No. We don't care about the damned Mindswitch. It's Mindseed we're talking about, and there's no cross references between the two. Stop using faulty arguments to back up your claims, and maybe we'll help you. Do please hush up. Sarlax accused me of saying A when I clearly said B. If you cannot follow simple logic, or indeed get from one end of a sentence to another without forgeting what it's about, please go bother someone else.
Racinante 06-20-07, 06:14 PM	Lets attack this from a different angle. Suppose a 17th level halfling telepath were to mind seed a 3rd level human expert. Based on the wording of mind seed several possiblities exist. Either the target becomes 1) A 9th level halfling telepath, with the physical scores of the human, but the mental scores of the telepath 8 levels lower and the memories of the 17th level telepath. 2) A 9th level human telepath, with the memories and mental ability scores (albeit at 9th level) of the 17th level telepath. 3) A 17th level halfling telepath with the physical scores of the human, but the mental scores of the telepath 8 levels lower and the memories of the 17th level telepath and 8 permanent negative levels. 4) A 17th level human telepath, with the memories and mental abiltiy scores (albeit at 9th level) of the 17th level telepath and 8 permanent negative levels. Reviewing the text of the power from the SRD: You impress the totality of your psyche into a subject's subconscious. If successfully implanted, the seed of your mind 'germinates' over the period of one week. During this time, the subject begins to unconsciously take on your mannerisms. When integration is complete (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but the subject's level is eight lower than your own. (In effect, the subject has received eight negative levels-but these are negative levels that can't be removed.) The subject does not have any of your physical ability scores or equipment, but does have the Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores you had when you were eight levels lower. The subject also knows the powers you knew when you were eight levels lower. While the subject is initially your mental duplicate, the two personalities diverge over time. Although the subject starts off with memories of your experiences, it possesses its original 'soul' and physical body and is free to develop its own personality based on its own new experiences. Thus, the subject is not your slave or servant, but instead a nonplayer character in its own right that shares your earlier memories. Protection from evil or a similar spell or power can prevent you from implanting mind seed, or prevent a seed from germinating while the protective power lasts. Otherwise, a germinating seed can be removed (prior to germination) only by psychic chirurgery, reality revision, or similarly high-level effects. Manifesting mind seed again during the germination period also cleanses the subject's mind. XP Cost: 3,000 XP. Here, a contradiction lies in the difference between the rules and parenthetical text. The subject also knows the powers you knew when you were eight levels lower. ...and... In effect, the subject has received eight negative levels-but these are negative levels that can't be removed. yield two different sets of powers known. A 17th level telepath with 8 negative levels loses 8 powers and up to 112 power points (not counting changes in Int) and looses access to 0-4 more powers due to the change in effective level. (Plus a -8 on attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks, etc.) An additional downside is that she still needs enough XP to become an 18th level character to advance (since she is still a 17th level character). At 8 levels lower, she knew 12 less powers and had 178 less points. Lets assume that the parenthetical information is incorrect and go with the standard text of the power. Also, since the target takes on the mental characteristics of the manifester and there is no indication that the body changes (in fact, just the opposite indication is made as the body retains its Str, Dex, and Con), we will also assume that the target remains human. This results in option (2) above. Based on my reading becomes you in mind is defined in the next paragraph as the subject starts off with memories of your experiences...does have the Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores you had when you were eight levels lower. The subject also knows the powers you knew when you were eight levels lower. Now from the section on Monsters in the SRD Special Attacks and Special Qualities Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Additional information (when needed) is provided in the creature's descriptive text. When a special ability allows a saving throw, the kind of save and the save DC is noted in the descriptive text. Most saving throws against special abilities have DCs calculated as follows: 10 + 1/2 the attacker's racial Hit Dice + the relevant ability modifier. The save DC is given in the creature's description along with the ability on which the DC is based. These abilities and qualities are a part of being that particular monster. All of the halfling's special abilities per the MM are extraordinary, and the human would not have those (since she is not a halfling). If the telepath had instead been a Dromite, the telepath would have had the following: Special Attacks (see above): Psi-like abilities: 1/day: energy ray as 8th level manifester. Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to fire 5 (other dromites may have resistance to cold, electricity, or sonics instead of fire), scent. Since human racial characteristics do not include scent, resistance 5, or psi-like abilities, (these are characteristics of the Dromite), the human would not then have them. Now, a monster with class levels has a character level equal to its racial hit dice + class levels (unless the monster only had one hit dice). Therefore the Mind Flayer has a level of 16 and the abilities of a 17th level telepath. Manifesting mind seed on the human results in a human with human characteristics and 8 hit dice and the memories of a Mind Flayer / 8th level telepath. The human has no psionic abilities since he is a human and not a mind flayer and the mind flayer had no levels as a telepath 8 levels prior. As a human, she also gains none of the special abilities or special qualities of that monster. Therefore the target would be permanently an 8 HD human with the memories and mental ability scores of the mind flayer. P.S. true mind switch is a 9th level power, while mind seed is 8th.
crizhII 06-20-07, 07:55 PM	Lets assume that the parenthetical information is incorrect and go with the standard text of the power. Based on my reading becomes you in mind is defined in the next paragraph as the subject starts off with memories of your experiences...does have the Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores you had when you were eight levels lower. The subject also knows the powers you knew when you were eight levels lower. (An excelent, measured, reasoned analysis, thank you.) This is where our opinions diverge. To my mind the following paragraph further describes what it means by 'eight levels lower.' 'Becomes you in mind' isn't sufficiently explained at all. However it isn't exactly an ambiguous phrase. There isn't an adequate (by which I mean isn't full of holes and requiring bits of it to be interpreted or ignored due to being outright wrong) mechanism for describing what exactly this means 'mechanically.' There is however a perfectly adequate mechanism for exactly the same circumstance elsewhere. I do not understand why there is such resistance to even considering the idea of using it.
crizhII 06-20-07, 08:19 PM	Conversely, from the other point of view. The Halfling Mindseeds a Mindflayer. And ends up with a 9HD Illithid with the abilities of a level 18 Telepath and Mindblast etc. Sweet... :D
Racinante 06-20-07, 11:17 PM	Conversely, from the other point of view. The Halfling Mindseeds a Mindflayer. And ends up with a 9HD Illithid with the abilities of a level 18 Telepath and Mindblast etc. Sweet... :D Well, after the mind seed, the Mind Flayer goes from 8 HD to 9HD, keeps the power list of the Mind Flayer and adds that of the halfling as a 9th level telepath (maximum 5th level powers), with the ability to manifest the powers as an 18th level telepath. Interesting....
Lokiyn 06-21-07, 01:22 AM	There is however a perfectly adequate mechanism for exactly the same circumstance elsewhere. I do not understand why there is such resistance to even considering the idea of using it. False Magic Jar moves your very soul, while Mindseed does not, Mind seed moves just your acumulated knowledge and wisdom as well as your personality and erases what was there. The closest power to mindseed is Stygian Domination from Complete psi, Note that in Stygian Domination your special abilities do not tranfer over. The reason people are against using magic jar as a basis is that one The do not do the same thing It expands the power in both strength and scope without any logical basis There is no ambiguity in the text, merely in execution in a few rare circumstances. Mind seed does not change race, add templates, or other such abilities elsewise this would be listed in the power description. Thus we must go by the power itself, without adding in abilities that are not existant in the text of the power.
Tsuul 06-21-07, 02:44 AM	You call what I said nonsense even though you summed up my statement rather well. I'm calling you out. I was hoping for some reasoned discusion about how it should be played rather than this knee-jerk nonsense. The point of this sentence is to inflame and agitate. Not to start a reasoned discussion. You may have met resistance on this and other topics in the past. May I suggest better etiquette on your part to reduce it. Racinante seems to have a good grasp on the debate. As for the avoidance of using the Mindswitch mechanic. 1) Bruce didn't reference it (even though many psionic powers reference magic spells). 2) It isn't a formulaic mechanic like poison, or burst effects, or mind-effecting stuff. 3) Spells are very bad at rules for non spell related topics. See magic fang/ magic weapon for rules on weapons; very bad rules.
crizhII 06-21-07, 05:57 AM	False Magic Jar moves your very soul, while Mindseed does not, Precisely. Hence why, having read it, I ignored it in favour of Mindswitch which moves your mind. Mind seed moves just your acumulated knowledge and wisdom as well as your personality and erases what was there. Although it does spontaneously create level 7 Telepaths in commoners... :D The closest power to mindseed is Stygian Domination from Complete psi, Note that in Stygian Domination your special abilities do not tranfer over. Uhh.. Actually Stygian Dominion transfers 'mental abilities' and leaves 'physical abilities' without providing a mechanism to detemine which is which. No better than Mindseed. Worse even because it explicitly says that it happens but doesn't tell you how to tell the difference. The reason people are against using magic jar as a basis is that It expands the power in both strength and scope Nobody suggested using Magic Jar. You are however correct the objection is because they have a knee-jerk reaction to anything that might provide someone with a power boost. Unfortunately such a reflex fails to take into account that the flip side opens the door to even worse abuses. There is no ambiguity in the text Except that read the way you promote a 16th level human Telepath that successfully seeds an Illithid creates a mental clone able to manifest 9th level powers and use Mindblast at will. Heck, he could then use True Mindswitch on the original and bring his nine level boost and Mindblast with him. He'd technically still be only level eight with no LA because nobody here has been willing to address the problem I originally asked about. They have instead hijacked the thread with a bunch of pontificating and auto-ego stroking and ignored the original question. Thus we must go by the power itself, without adding in abilities that are not existant in the text of the power. Thus we must stick with the eight negative levels mechanic instead of using the eight drained levels mechanic we all instinctively use instead. In which case the Telepath I have detailed above retains all of his feats, has his BAB gutted, PP calculated using negative level rules (247, I think:weep: ) and eight fewer powers (probably 4 8th and 4 7th) than a 20th level Telepath.
Racinante 06-21-07, 10:33 AM	Precisely. Hence why, having read it, I ignored it in favour of Mindswitch which moves your mind. Actually, it moves your mind (and soul), which is more than what mind seed does. Mind switch also has the additional effect of If either body is killed while the power is in effect, the other participant also dies when the power ends, while mind seed does not. Regardless, this will be a point on which we disagree. Now back to your original question. The seeded human will be a 9th level telepath (CR 9). If you choose to also provide it with mind blast (and as the DM you could bypass the rules question by creating an Illithid-spawn feat, a 9th level version of mind seed that does transfer psi-like and supernatural abilities {with perhaps a bump in XP requirement or 10 minute manifestation time}, or some other mechanism), then you need to determine if that ability makes the human telepath twice as powerful. If so, then CR 11. If the human telepath could normally manifest something equivalent in power to the mind blast, then no change in CR. If there is a significant boost, but not a doubling in power, then CR 10. Hope this helps.
Sarlax 06-22-07, 02:03 PM	Does a Mindflayer Mindswitched into a human body get to use its Mindblast and Psionic Powers? Yes it quite clearly and catagorically does. I owe you an apology. I did misread this initially, quickly taking it as a reiteration of your initial claim (seeds get spell-like abilities) instead of seeing that you were using the switch's clear effects to try to argue that the alleged unclear seed text should follow the same precedent. I'm sorry. I had understood that to be your general argument (seed's vague, switch is clear, seed is closest to switch in effect, so gray areas should be settled by referring to switch), and because I had, I blitzed through the end of that post without reading clearly.
crizhII 06-22-07, 03:07 PM	I owe you an apology. I did misread this initially, quickly taking it as a reiteration of your initial claim (seeds get spell-like abilities) instead of seeing that you were using the switch's clear effects to try to argue that the alleged unclear seed text should follow the same precedent. I'm sorry. I had understood that to be your general argument (seed's vague, switch is clear, seed is closest to switch in effect, so gray areas should be settled by referring to switch), and because I had, I blitzed through the end of that post without reading clearly. It's cool. I think it must be my time of the month or something. I've had about four enormous fights about trivial, fiddling little details this week. Sometimes I just get like a dog with a bone when I think I'm right. For the record I've come to the conclusion that the original example should be CR 8 just like an unmodified Illithid. I'm pretty sure if I use the 'Mindswitch' rule of thumb here then it's monster HD carry through and you end up with an 8HD human so the mad contradiction of a 1HD creature with ML 9 manifesting doesn't really exist.