Problem understanding Ardent. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Problem understanding Ardent. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Senevri
01-15-08, 10:42 PM So, I was working on my Superman build, and Ardent is a very good match, thematically and power-access wise. However, I have trouble understanding at which point he can access which powers. The numbers in mantles seem to be "level-equivalents", but Ardent's access is determined by what he can manifest. Now, certain powers ( Hustle and Evade Burst ) have different costs, depending on who's using them. Which cost does an ardent use?
Deekin
01-15-08, 11:15 PM The Psion/wilder one.
Senevri
01-15-08, 11:38 PM The Psion/wilder one.
Damn. Okay. This means... a bit of shuffling.

Guardian:
.1 Thicken Skin :10min/l +7 AC OR swift +5 AC (19 points)
.10 Mind Over Energy 1round/lvl energy immunity (11pts)
.13 Iron Body, Psionic :1min/lvl, Dr15/a, +6 str -6 dex enhancement, (15 pts)
.5 Damp Power: minimum damage from variable die of spells etc.(3pts)
.8 Dispel Psionics? Filler.

Physical Power:
.1 Adrenaline Boost: 1 round +8 STR, DEX (SWIFT) insight, (19pts)
.2 Animal Affinity: +4 Enhancement 1 min/lvl, (3pts +5pts extra ability) (negate iron body penalty!)
.4 Vigor
.16 True Metabolism 1 min /lvl, fast heal 10, (15pts)
.9 Psychofeedback: Reduce one score to increase other (animal aff +4 cha, -10 cha +10 str, 1 r/lvl (9pts)

Freedom:
.3 Hustle: gain move as swift (5pp)
.6 Fly, Psionic (7pp)
.12 Evade Burst: evasion/improved evasion immediate action(13pts, improved +4)
.20 Psionic Greater Teleport (15pts)

Law:
.7 Immovability: dr 15/a, str check to move, Concentration, (7pp immediate 15pp)
.17 Timeless Body: std action, 1 round, unaffectable, (17pp)

Elements:
.14 Adapt Body: 1h/lvl, (9pp)
.11 Breathless: no breath(5pp)
.19 Tornado Blast: (17pp)

Time
.15 Temporal Acceleration: swift, 1 round, 11ppt, +4ppt/extra round (3 rounds usual)
.18 Anticipatory Strike: immediate, use next turn (9pp)

Here's the current set, I focused mostly on themes, Strength, invulnerability and movement. I think I can get rest of whatever I need via feats.

Although it's not correct, yet. Cannot be done. T_T Hmm. *edit*
No, wait... it is actually. The numbers are the level each power is taken at. There's Overchannel cheese there just a bit, maybe, but it seems to work out okay.

- Inertial armor would be nice
- Mighty Spring, Freedom of Movement, Aura Sight/True Seeing, Elfsight, Light Beam on "wishlist." Some sort of supernatural acquity - thematically for range (spot check increase), analyzing and through objects.
Light Beam / Energy Ray for heat vision. Freedom + True Seeing + Light Beam would be a rather sufficient combo.

It's a shame Anticipatory Strike and Temporal Acceleration cannot be comboed without RKV, but Anticipatory Strike is equal to always having been prepared for anything, more or less. Anticipatory Strike + Timeless Body = survive anything/invulnerability. Sort of.

As a downside, we can only fly for, oh, the whole day (18 hours) if nothing too bad happens. it will cut down on PP resources quite a bit, though.
AntiDjinn
01-16-08, 12:31 AM Actually, he uses the mantle-specific version of each power. You could say he uses the Ardent version, but that is not quite right. Hustle is Psychic Warrior 2 (costs 3 points) and Egoist 3 (costs 5 points), with Comp. Psi. it is also Freedom 2 (Costs 3 points, same base as all second level powers). If your Ardent has selected the Freedom mantle, he can choose Hustle at 3rd level (the level at which he can spend 3 points on a single manifestation). You know this because Hustle is assigned level 2 on the Freedom mantle list.

Evade Burst is Freedom 6. Manifesting the basic form of the power costs 11 points (more than double what the Psychic Warrior pays, but 2 points less than what a Psion or Wilder pays). The augmentation costs 4 points, same as everyone. So it costs you 15 points to use Evade Burst as an immediate action to duplicate the benefit of Improved Evasion. If you are unhappy with this cost, you can use Expanded Knowledge to learn the Psychic Warrior version (not a bad plan; since the Ardent doesn't have a good Reflex save, only the improved version of Evade Burst is likely to be worth the effort).

By the way, note that all the new powers for the Ardent are listed by mantle: Protection From Psionics is Guardian 5, not Ardent 5. This means if you have not selected the Guardian mantle the power is not even on your class list.
Senevri
01-16-08, 01:19 AM Oh, thanks.

I crunched numbers and I'm dropping Elements for Fate, since Iron Body gives me immunity from vacuum effectively already. Fate nets me offensive + defensive precogs which help with the low AB, as well as Clairvoyant Sense as I'm missing on the super-sense side of things.

STR can momentarily hit... well, I guess something silly thanks to psychometabolism, really, but 50ish without too much pain, for those grapple/opposed STR checks.

On feat-side, Extend power was a must, as this is effectively a pre-buffing Gish.

As there are 1440 minutes in a day, 10min/level power will give a ratio of 3.6xPP cost, and 1min/lvl a 36xpp cost. Flying all day costs only 33PP, and Vigor for +90HP all day costs 72 PP. Animal Affinity is really too expensive to keep running all day for all stats.
InkBlot
01-16-08, 01:25 AM All powers of the same level have the same cost. The following table is also found on page 63 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Power PP
Level Cost
1st 1
2nd 3
3rd 5
4th 7
5th 9
6th 11
7th 13
8th 15
9th 17

So you just look at the level of the power as it is listed in the mantle, and use the same cost as all other powers of that level. Since hustle is a 2nd level power on the Freedom mantle, it costs 3 power points for an Ardent with the Freedom mantle to manifest it. An Ardent can't learn hustle until her manifester level is at least 3.

If you use Expanded Knowledge, then you can take a power from any list and you pay the cost according to the level it is on that list.
Senevri
01-16-08, 01:27 AM Thank you.
AntiDjinn
01-16-08, 01:33 AM Mechanically, you are going to wind up with something closer to Captain Marvel than Supes, because he will actually have to turn his powers on. The Ardent fits the mode of both heroes since so much of what makes each of them tick is the strength of their ideals. Marvel, though he gains his powers from the gods, does not worship them so much as he exemplifies them so he could easily be an Ardent. While Superman's physical powers are due to his Kryptonian heritage, what makes him Superman are the values instilled by the Kents.
InkBlot
01-16-08, 01:39 AM Also, note that Practiced Manifester and Overchannel will help a multiclassed Ardent qualify for learning higher level powers. You can use this fact to thin your power list, so you don't have to take too many off-theme powers. It'll make you a weaker manifester, but most superheroes are gishes anyway.

I used to joke around that Erudite is "the Superman class", due to the way he never seems to have exactly the same set of powers on any given occasion.
Senevri
01-16-08, 02:21 AM I am thinking of dipping to Swordsage( unarmed variant ) - it saves a feat, and maneuvers help in combat situations without wasting PP. Stone Dragon has stuff for hitting people and things so they break/are knocked back, and grappling, while Setting Sun gives abilities to throw people away. I'd also get Wis to AC without Monk's Belt. However, I do not have many non-thematic powers. Dispel Psionics and... well, Animal Affinity, sort of, but it's good fuel for Biofeedback.

This build also is effectively invulnerable thanks to anticipatory strike and timeless body combo - for round, which uses the Swift, though. Still nice when you're hit for that 200d6 untyped damage. Also, anticipatory strike + greater teleport - or just "running" - will allow you to place yourself next to an ally about to take damage, and then use the Guardian power to take the attack yourself. Hey, if you were within 60ft, you still get to use Timeless Body, too -- otherwise, you'll have to absorb that with Vigor.

Of course, this is still vulnerable to save-or stuff, but I think it will do nicely in gameplay. Switching to Fate domain also got the +20 to any d20 check 1/day, which can most definitely be a life saver.

Temporal acceleration can be used to all sorts of trickery, but also as a safe way to buff, if situation calls for it.

This reminds me, "Superman" set resembles Exalted in many ways - we have a perfect defense, and scalable ways of increasing abilities...

entry as monk1 saves 2 feats. We pick Practiced Manifester at l3. Exit has swordsage at level 17(max 5th), for a dash of ToB. lose 63 PP. Ouch. OTOH, we get to throw and bull rush people around and have a bit of unarmed damage - not to mention flurry at -2 to hit - even without monk's belt.

Still, it's 63 PP. That's three fully augmented manifestations... :/
Still, a 1 level dip to monk costs just 32PP, and saves one feat, which could be augmented knowledge.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Senevri 01-15-08, 10:42 PM	So, I was working on my Superman build, and Ardent is a very good match, thematically and power-access wise. However, I have trouble understanding at which point he can access which powers. The numbers in mantles seem to be "level-equivalents", but Ardent's access is determined by what he can manifest. Now, certain powers ( Hustle and Evade Burst ) have different costs, depending on who's using them. Which cost does an ardent use?
Deekin 01-15-08, 11:15 PM	The Psion/wilder one.
Senevri 01-15-08, 11:38 PM	The Psion/wilder one. Damn. Okay. This means... a bit of shuffling. Guardian: .1 Thicken Skin :10min/l +7 AC OR swift +5 AC (19 points) .10 Mind Over Energy 1round/lvl energy immunity (11pts) .13 Iron Body, Psionic :1min/lvl, Dr15/a, +6 str -6 dex enhancement, (15 pts) .5 Damp Power: minimum damage from variable die of spells etc.(3pts) .8 Dispel Psionics? Filler. Physical Power: .1 Adrenaline Boost: 1 round +8 STR, DEX (SWIFT) insight, (19pts) .2 Animal Affinity: +4 Enhancement 1 min/lvl, (3pts +5pts extra ability) (negate iron body penalty!) .4 Vigor .16 True Metabolism 1 min /lvl, fast heal 10, (15pts) .9 Psychofeedback: Reduce one score to increase other (animal aff +4 cha, -10 cha +10 str, 1 r/lvl (9pts) Freedom: .3 Hustle: gain move as swift (5pp) .6 Fly, Psionic (7pp) .12 Evade Burst: evasion/improved evasion immediate action(13pts, improved +4) .20 Psionic Greater Teleport (15pts) Law: .7 Immovability: dr 15/a, str check to move, Concentration, (7pp immediate 15pp) .17 Timeless Body: std action, 1 round, unaffectable, (17pp) Elements: .14 Adapt Body: 1h/lvl, (9pp) .11 Breathless: no breath(5pp) .19 Tornado Blast: (17pp) Time .15 Temporal Acceleration: swift, 1 round, 11ppt, +4ppt/extra round (3 rounds usual) .18 Anticipatory Strike: immediate, use next turn (9pp) Here's the current set, I focused mostly on themes, Strength, invulnerability and movement. I think I can get rest of whatever I need via feats. Although it's not correct, yet. Cannot be done. T_T Hmm. edit No, wait... it is actually. The numbers are the level each power is taken at. There's Overchannel cheese there just a bit, maybe, but it seems to work out okay. - Inertial armor would be nice - Mighty Spring, Freedom of Movement, Aura Sight/True Seeing, Elfsight, Light Beam on "wishlist." Some sort of supernatural acquity - thematically for range (spot check increase), analyzing and through objects. Light Beam / Energy Ray for heat vision. Freedom + True Seeing + Light Beam would be a rather sufficient combo. It's a shame Anticipatory Strike and Temporal Acceleration cannot be comboed without RKV, but Anticipatory Strike is equal to always having been prepared for anything, more or less. Anticipatory Strike + Timeless Body = survive anything/invulnerability. Sort of. As a downside, we can only fly for, oh, the whole day (18 hours) if nothing too bad happens. it will cut down on PP resources quite a bit, though.
AntiDjinn 01-16-08, 12:31 AM	Actually, he uses the mantle-specific version of each power. You could say he uses the Ardent version, but that is not quite right. Hustle is Psychic Warrior 2 (costs 3 points) and Egoist 3 (costs 5 points), with Comp. Psi. it is also Freedom 2 (Costs 3 points, same base as all second level powers). If your Ardent has selected the Freedom mantle, he can choose Hustle at 3rd level (the level at which he can spend 3 points on a single manifestation). You know this because Hustle is assigned level 2 on the Freedom mantle list. Evade Burst is Freedom 6. Manifesting the basic form of the power costs 11 points (more than double what the Psychic Warrior pays, but 2 points less than what a Psion or Wilder pays). The augmentation costs 4 points, same as everyone. So it costs you 15 points to use Evade Burst as an immediate action to duplicate the benefit of Improved Evasion. If you are unhappy with this cost, you can use Expanded Knowledge to learn the Psychic Warrior version (not a bad plan; since the Ardent doesn't have a good Reflex save, only the improved version of Evade Burst is likely to be worth the effort). By the way, note that all the new powers for the Ardent are listed by mantle: Protection From Psionics is Guardian 5, not Ardent 5. This means if you have not selected the Guardian mantle the power is not even on your class list.
Senevri 01-16-08, 01:19 AM	Oh, thanks. I crunched numbers and I'm dropping Elements for Fate, since Iron Body gives me immunity from vacuum effectively already. Fate nets me offensive + defensive precogs which help with the low AB, as well as Clairvoyant Sense as I'm missing on the super-sense side of things. STR can momentarily hit... well, I guess something silly thanks to psychometabolism, really, but 50ish without too much pain, for those grapple/opposed STR checks. On feat-side, Extend power was a must, as this is effectively a pre-buffing Gish. As there are 1440 minutes in a day, 10min/level power will give a ratio of 3.6xPP cost, and 1min/lvl a 36xpp cost. Flying all day costs only 33PP, and Vigor for +90HP all day costs 72 PP. Animal Affinity is really too expensive to keep running all day for all stats.
InkBlot 01-16-08, 01:25 AM	All powers of the same level have the same cost. The following table is also found on page 63 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Power PP Level Cost 1st 1 2nd 3 3rd 5 4th 7 5th 9 6th 11 7th 13 8th 15 9th 17 So you just look at the level of the power as it is listed in the mantle, and use the same cost as all other powers of that level. Since hustle is a 2nd level power on the Freedom mantle, it costs 3 power points for an Ardent with the Freedom mantle to manifest it. An Ardent can't learn hustle until her manifester level is at least 3. If you use Expanded Knowledge, then you can take a power from any list and you pay the cost according to the level it is on that list.
Senevri 01-16-08, 01:27 AM	Thank you.
AntiDjinn 01-16-08, 01:33 AM	Mechanically, you are going to wind up with something closer to Captain Marvel than Supes, because he will actually have to turn his powers on. The Ardent fits the mode of both heroes since so much of what makes each of them tick is the strength of their ideals. Marvel, though he gains his powers from the gods, does not worship them so much as he exemplifies them so he could easily be an Ardent. While Superman's physical powers are due to his Kryptonian heritage, what makes him Superman are the values instilled by the Kents.
InkBlot 01-16-08, 01:39 AM	Also, note that Practiced Manifester and Overchannel will help a multiclassed Ardent qualify for learning higher level powers. You can use this fact to thin your power list, so you don't have to take too many off-theme powers. It'll make you a weaker manifester, but most superheroes are gishes anyway. I used to joke around that Erudite is "the Superman class", due to the way he never seems to have exactly the same set of powers on any given occasion.
Senevri 01-16-08, 02:21 AM	I am thinking of dipping to Swordsage( unarmed variant ) - it saves a feat, and maneuvers help in combat situations without wasting PP. Stone Dragon has stuff for hitting people and things so they break/are knocked back, and grappling, while Setting Sun gives abilities to throw people away. I'd also get Wis to AC without Monk's Belt. However, I do not have many non-thematic powers. Dispel Psionics and... well, Animal Affinity, sort of, but it's good fuel for Biofeedback. This build also is effectively invulnerable thanks to anticipatory strike and timeless body combo - for round, which uses the Swift, though. Still nice when you're hit for that 200d6 untyped damage. Also, anticipatory strike + greater teleport - or just "running" - will allow you to place yourself next to an ally about to take damage, and then use the Guardian power to take the attack yourself. Hey, if you were within 60ft, you still get to use Timeless Body, too -- otherwise, you'll have to absorb that with Vigor. Of course, this is still vulnerable to save-or stuff, but I think it will do nicely in gameplay. Switching to Fate domain also got the +20 to any d20 check 1/day, which can most definitely be a life saver. Temporal acceleration can be used to all sorts of trickery, but also as a safe way to buff, if situation calls for it. This reminds me, "Superman" set resembles Exalted in many ways - we have a perfect defense, and scalable ways of increasing abilities... entry as monk1 saves 2 feats. We pick Practiced Manifester at l3. Exit has swordsage at level 17(max 5th), for a dash of ToB. lose 63 PP. Ouch. OTOH, we get to throw and bull rush people around and have a bit of unarmed damage - not to mention flurry at -2 to hit - even without monk's belt. Still, it's 63 PP. That's three fully augmented manifestations... :/ Still, a 1 level dip to monk costs just 32PP, and saves one feat, which could be augmented knowledge.