Problems with "Energy Wall" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Problems with "Energy Wall" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 01:38 AM In the campaign I am DMing, everything has gone pretty smoothly and worked well. But I have been continually frustrated by the Psion manifesting Energy Wall. I can get around it, there are a lot of scenarios where it is not as effective, but I like to mix the interactions around and throw 7-10 NPC's that make up an appropriate CR. If I didn't buff up their HP, and there was decent amount of room (at lower levels) they were wiped out before they even got to the players. Now, with their characters being level 10, it is more just annoying that I have to wait 10 rounds to have the NPC's able to act.

I could always use Dispel Psionics, but there are many parts of the world where Psionics is not known. Is it cheap to always have one Psionic NPC who has that power available?

Am I not looking at something right, or is this just an effective battlefield control power that will become less useful when NPC's will not be that hurt by 2d6+ML when they walk through it?
.
Tempest Stormwind
08-22-07, 01:46 AM The damage doesn't scale. They're at level 10; even mooks at that level should be able to survive running through the wall or have energy resistance up. Or, you know, just run around it (assuming you aren't in tight passages).

It's most damaging at those levels for the sonic wall effect which gives you pretty effective property damage. Also, the sonic wall basically doubles as a Wind Wall (arrows can't survive that much damage passing through it). But containing enemies? Wall of Ectoplasm is more effective, and it's easy to break out of!

Also, why wouldn't Dispel Magic work? It cancels powers just fine.
InkBlot
08-22-07, 01:53 AM I could always use Dispel Psionics, but there are many parts of the world where Psionics is not known. Is it cheap to always have one Psionic NPC who has that power available?

Use Dispel Magic. It works just as well. There shouldn't always be a dispelling enemy in every mob, but in the most important mobs there should be.

Also try mixing up your encounters a little. Remove a couple little guys, and put in one bigger guy (instead of 6 little guys, have 4 little guys and 1 big guy). Occasionally use enemies who can fly. Occasionally use enemies that can burrow. Have some some ambushes, so that enemies pop up behind the party after the psion makes the wall. Have the enemies make listen checks, or get up high to see over the wall, and then use ranged weaponry (might not work well with a sonic wall). Occasionally use enemies that can teleport across without going through the wall. Occasionally stage encounters in areas with fragile or flammable floors (carpets, wood floors, etc.) so that any energy wall will cause risk of bringing the house down.
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 01:57 AM It's most damaging at those levels for the sonic wall effect which gives you pretty effective property damage. Also, the sonic wall basically doubles as a Wind Wall (arrows can't survive that much damage passing through it). But containing enemies? Wall of Ectoplasm is more effective, and it's easy to break out of!
.

That is what I have found to be most effective. Especially when a ring is placed around the enemies. Side question, can more than one wall be up at a time? He hasn't tried that yet, but can he just keep manifesting ring after ring around the NPC's?
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 02:00 AM Use Dispel Magic. It works just as well. There shouldn't always be a dispelling enemy in every mob, but in the most important mobs there should be.

Also try mixing up your encounters a little. Remove a couple little guys, and put in one bigger guy (instead of 6 little guys, have 4 little guys and 1 big guy). Occasionally use enemies who can fly. Occasionally use enemies that can burrow. Have some some ambushes, so that enemies pop up behind the party after the psion makes the wall. Have the enemies make listen checks, or get up high to see over the wall, and then use ranged weaponry (might not work well with a sonic wall). Occasionally use enemies that can teleport across without going through the wall. Occasionally stage encounters in areas with fragile or flammable floors (carpets, wood floors, etc.) so that any energy wall will cause risk of bringing the house down.

The ambushes have worked well. I have the most fun with Kobolds, -3 to their CR gives me a lot to work with. I think my problem was not having the bigger guy being set up for the Psion.

I like the idea of one NPC being able to Fly and Teleport, must more reasonable now at higher levels.
InkBlot
08-22-07, 02:25 AM Tempest brought up a good point about the damage. The energy wall can do 5d6 + 15 (average 32.5) points of fire damage to each enemy who runs through it. A max augmented energy bolt/burst/missile/ball/cone/current could be doing 10d6 + 5 (average 40) points of fire damage to each enemy it hits.

So really, your psion isn't being an effective blaster. Just a power-point efficient one. Have your NPCs run through the energy wall. It's not as bad as getting hit by a fireball.

That is what I have found to be most effective. Especially when a ring is placed around the enemies. Side question, can more than one wall be up at a time? He hasn't tried that yet, but can he just keep manifesting ring after ring around the NPC's?

Yes. But he can only concentrate on one wall at a time (manifesting any power automatically breaks your concentration).
MindFlayerZoidberg
08-22-07, 02:41 AM Tempest brought up a good point about the damage. The energy wall can do 5d6 + 15 (average 32.5) points of fire damage to each enemy who runs through it. A max augmented energy bolt/burst/missile/ball/cone/current could be doing 10d6 + 5 (average 40) points of fire damage to each enemy it hits.

So really, your psion isn't being an effective blaster. Just a power-point efficient one. Have your NPCs run through the energy wall. It's not as bad as getting hit by a fireball.

Yes. But he can only concentrate on one wall at a time (manifesting any power automatically breaks your concentration).

But doesn't it still last round/level after concentration?
AntiDjinn
08-22-07, 03:05 AM Don't forget that walls can also have an effect on the local environment and structures; sonic walls are best at this, but other energy walls could damage materials of low hardness.

For example, a character places an energy wall lengthwise down a long corridor (rather than across the opening) so that its non-damaging side is flush with the wall on one side and its damaging side completely fills the hallway. This may do more damage as opponents running this gauntlet may take several rounds to clear the area (the faster they move, the fewer rounds they spend under the effect). It is a good idea, but if the opposite wall is within the damaging area, then it takes damage. If the wall is sonic, or if you have a firewall in an ice cavern, and the wall is holding the ceiling up, then there could be unforeseen structural consequences. Don't invoke this level of realism often without giving ample warning. I have had a DM do this to our party once; but it was a mage using Wall of Fire in a wooden barn full of straw (20+ Int, should have known better, and the DM gave 3 "Are you sure that is what you do????" chances to change his mind) the situation made worse by the fact that most of the party were up in the hayloft. Still, if a PC used a sonic wall in an area where treasure could be damaged or where the risk of cave-in was high, then I wouldn't hesitate to make it an object lesson in dungeon engineering.
InkBlot
08-22-07, 10:28 AM But doesn't it still last round/level after concentration?
Yes, it does. I was just pointing out that he can't keep multiple walls up indefinitely, and that can only have 10 walls up at once (then the duration of the first wall ends).

It's better for the monsters to run through the first wall before others come up. Unless the heroes are close enough to the wall to get hurt too, the monsters should only have to deal with the wall once in order to get to the squishy psion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 01:38 AM	In the campaign I am DMing, everything has gone pretty smoothly and worked well. But I have been continually frustrated by the Psion manifesting Energy Wall. I can get around it, there are a lot of scenarios where it is not as effective, but I like to mix the interactions around and throw 7-10 NPC's that make up an appropriate CR. If I didn't buff up their HP, and there was decent amount of room (at lower levels) they were wiped out before they even got to the players. Now, with their characters being level 10, it is more just annoying that I have to wait 10 rounds to have the NPC's able to act. I could always use Dispel Psionics, but there are many parts of the world where Psionics is not known. Is it cheap to always have one Psionic NPC who has that power available? Am I not looking at something right, or is this just an effective battlefield control power that will become less useful when NPC's will not be that hurt by 2d6+ML when they walk through it? .
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 01:46 AM	The damage doesn't scale. They're at level 10; even mooks at that level should be able to survive running through the wall or have energy resistance up. Or, you know, just run around it (assuming you aren't in tight passages). It's most damaging at those levels for the sonic wall effect which gives you pretty effective property damage. Also, the sonic wall basically doubles as a Wind Wall (arrows can't survive that much damage passing through it). But containing enemies? Wall of Ectoplasm is more effective, and it's easy to break out of! Also, why wouldn't Dispel Magic work? It cancels powers just fine.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 01:53 AM	I could always use Dispel Psionics, but there are many parts of the world where Psionics is not known. Is it cheap to always have one Psionic NPC who has that power available? Use Dispel Magic. It works just as well. There shouldn't always be a dispelling enemy in every mob, but in the most important mobs there should be. Also try mixing up your encounters a little. Remove a couple little guys, and put in one bigger guy (instead of 6 little guys, have 4 little guys and 1 big guy). Occasionally use enemies who can fly. Occasionally use enemies that can burrow. Have some some ambushes, so that enemies pop up behind the party after the psion makes the wall. Have the enemies make listen checks, or get up high to see over the wall, and then use ranged weaponry (might not work well with a sonic wall). Occasionally use enemies that can teleport across without going through the wall. Occasionally stage encounters in areas with fragile or flammable floors (carpets, wood floors, etc.) so that any energy wall will cause risk of bringing the house down.
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 01:57 AM	It's most damaging at those levels for the sonic wall effect which gives you pretty effective property damage. Also, the sonic wall basically doubles as a Wind Wall (arrows can't survive that much damage passing through it). But containing enemies? Wall of Ectoplasm is more effective, and it's easy to break out of! . That is what I have found to be most effective. Especially when a ring is placed around the enemies. Side question, can more than one wall be up at a time? He hasn't tried that yet, but can he just keep manifesting ring after ring around the NPC's?
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 02:00 AM	Use Dispel Magic. It works just as well. There shouldn't always be a dispelling enemy in every mob, but in the most important mobs there should be. Also try mixing up your encounters a little. Remove a couple little guys, and put in one bigger guy (instead of 6 little guys, have 4 little guys and 1 big guy). Occasionally use enemies who can fly. Occasionally use enemies that can burrow. Have some some ambushes, so that enemies pop up behind the party after the psion makes the wall. Have the enemies make listen checks, or get up high to see over the wall, and then use ranged weaponry (might not work well with a sonic wall). Occasionally use enemies that can teleport across without going through the wall. Occasionally stage encounters in areas with fragile or flammable floors (carpets, wood floors, etc.) so that any energy wall will cause risk of bringing the house down. The ambushes have worked well. I have the most fun with Kobolds, -3 to their CR gives me a lot to work with. I think my problem was not having the bigger guy being set up for the Psion. I like the idea of one NPC being able to Fly and Teleport, must more reasonable now at higher levels.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 02:25 AM	Tempest brought up a good point about the damage. The energy wall can do 5d6 + 15 (average 32.5) points of fire damage to each enemy who runs through it. A max augmented energy bolt/burst/missile/ball/cone/current could be doing 10d6 + 5 (average 40) points of fire damage to each enemy it hits. So really, your psion isn't being an effective blaster. Just a power-point efficient one. Have your NPCs run through the energy wall. It's not as bad as getting hit by a fireball. That is what I have found to be most effective. Especially when a ring is placed around the enemies. Side question, can more than one wall be up at a time? He hasn't tried that yet, but can he just keep manifesting ring after ring around the NPC's? Yes. But he can only concentrate on one wall at a time (manifesting any power automatically breaks your concentration).
MindFlayerZoidberg 08-22-07, 02:41 AM	Tempest brought up a good point about the damage. The energy wall can do 5d6 + 15 (average 32.5) points of fire damage to each enemy who runs through it. A max augmented energy bolt/burst/missile/ball/cone/current could be doing 10d6 + 5 (average 40) points of fire damage to each enemy it hits. So really, your psion isn't being an effective blaster. Just a power-point efficient one. Have your NPCs run through the energy wall. It's not as bad as getting hit by a fireball. Yes. But he can only concentrate on one wall at a time (manifesting any power automatically breaks your concentration). But doesn't it still last round/level after concentration?
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 03:05 AM	Don't forget that walls can also have an effect on the local environment and structures; sonic walls are best at this, but other energy walls could damage materials of low hardness. For example, a character places an energy wall lengthwise down a long corridor (rather than across the opening) so that its non-damaging side is flush with the wall on one side and its damaging side completely fills the hallway. This may do more damage as opponents running this gauntlet may take several rounds to clear the area (the faster they move, the fewer rounds they spend under the effect). It is a good idea, but if the opposite wall is within the damaging area, then it takes damage. If the wall is sonic, or if you have a firewall in an ice cavern, and the wall is holding the ceiling up, then there could be unforeseen structural consequences. Don't invoke this level of realism often without giving ample warning. I have had a DM do this to our party once; but it was a mage using Wall of Fire in a wooden barn full of straw (20+ Int, should have known better, and the DM gave 3 "Are you sure that is what you do????" chances to change his mind) the situation made worse by the fact that most of the party were up in the hayloft. Still, if a PC used a sonic wall in an area where treasure could be damaged or where the risk of cave-in was high, then I wouldn't hesitate to make it an object lesson in dungeon engineering.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 10:28 AM	But doesn't it still last round/level after concentration? Yes, it does. I was just pointing out that he can't keep multiple walls up indefinitely, and that can only have 10 walls up at once (then the duration of the first wall ends). It's better for the monsters to run through the first wall before others come up. Unless the heroes are close enough to the wall to get hurt too, the monsters should only have to deal with the wall once in order to get to the squishy psion.