Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chahir 12-07-07, 02:48 AM	Hello y'all I am rebuilding a PC for my campaign who wants a 'covert ops type, sneaky disguise' PC but hasnt been happy with any of the alternatives I have been able to offer. The player now wants to make a new char because he says his concept is 'too difficult to realise in D&D game terms'. Please prove him wrong. I have already posted this in the CO boards, but thought the psi people more inclined to comment. This is my attempt, but I know there are some people out there who can bring the CO bad juju, so PEACH away! Elan male psychic rogue1/ psion (shapeshifter egoist) 3 HP 1d6 plus 3d4+8; hp 21 Init: +4 Speed: 30 ft AC: 16 (+4 dex, +2 leather); touch 14, flat-footed 12 BAB/grapple: +1/+1 Atk: +0 (bone dagger) 1d4-1/19-20 x2 (Dark sun campaign) Space/Reach: 5ft/- Saves: Fort: +3 Ref: +7 Will: +6 Abilities: Str 11 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 19 Wis 17 Cha 13 Skills: bluff +5(+9 with telempathic projection), concentration +11, disguise +10(+20 with change self, +22 with bluff synergy to act in character), forgery +8, listen +5, spot +10, hide +11, move silently +11, knowledge (psionics) +6, knowledge (arcana) +6, autohypnosis +6, psicraft +7, search +6, literacy Feats: change shape, deceitful, enhanced élan resilience Im gonna say that since psychic rogue is a psionic class, it can select change shape as its 1st level feat Power points: 21 Powers known: 8 1) defensive precognition, thicken skin, mind thrust, force screen, skate, telempathic projection 2) animal affinity, cloud mind Thanks Chahir
Tsuul 12-07-07, 02:52 AM	Limits? Sounds more like the player has a specific idea in his head. Find out what that idea is.
calronmoonflower 12-07-07, 04:11 AM	The lurk form the Complte Psionic can do this just fine. There is also a Mind's Eye articale that makes it more rogue like. If he wants to go further the ebon saint prestige class from the same book futher specialzes along getting info. Because that of a 5 level prestige class you can also get the shadowmind prestige class from the Complete Adventurer.
Wizard Random 12-07-07, 04:37 AM	The lurk form the Complte Psionic can do this just fine. There is also a Mind's Eye articale that makes it more rogue like. If he wants to go further the ebon saint prestige class from the same book futher specialzes along getting info. Because that of a 5 level prestige class you can also get the shadowmind prestige class from the Complete Adventurer. I also think the PGTF has a Prc called the Cognition Theif
Chahir 12-07-07, 06:41 AM	Thanks for the responses. Let me try to answer as best I can. Tsuul: the player tells me that he wants to be a sneaky infiltrator type, but psionic. With the ability to 'hide in plain sight' by taking on the forms of others and mimicking their mannerisms (forgot to add assume quirk skill trick from complete scoundrel). But every time I suggest a way to go, he seems to find something wrong with it. Its as if he wants to be sneaky, but not a rogue. I am frankly at a loss for what it is he wants to do despite the fact that we have talked extensively about this char. calronmoonflower: he dismissed the lurk as 'being teh suxxor' (sic). While I dont entirely disagree, I cannot help but feel that he is being way too finnicity about a 4th level character. They just should not take this long to build! I havent dared ask him about a prestige class since its taking so long just to get him set up with a NORMAL character. Wizardrandom: I dont know what the acronym PGTF, but if its players guide to Faerun (Im guessing it is), then we wont be using it. We are using generic (i.e. non-world specific) WOTC books plus mindscapes and dreamscarred press unlimited potential. Game time is on sunday and Im frankly starting to get a bit impatient with the endless back and forth and protestations that his character concept cant be realised with the D&D rules when IMNSHO it clearly can. Thanks again Chahir
Tiarn 12-07-07, 06:51 AM	This may not be similar to your problem; then again, it could be exactly your problem. I find that when a player in my game says, "my concept may just not be able to be realized in D&D," what they're really saying is often either: "I'm too lazy to step outside my box and see that ideas can be realized in a variety of ways with many different classes and I don't want to play the most obvious," or, "we aren't high enough level for me to get the cool power/ability I want yet and I'm not willing to devote time to a character that doesn't have it to start with." So instead of just being a bit creative or playing something else from the beginning they whine for days on end about how D&D just cannot realize the concept they wish to play. :rolleyes: Frankly I have yet to come up with a concept that cannot be done in d20 with a little reflavoring or ingenuity. Your player could be having a case like this.
rilem 12-07-07, 09:39 AM	Changeling Telepath?
Chahir 12-07-07, 10:28 AM	Tiarn, I think you may have hit the nail on the head :cool: Despite me offering up the lurk, psychic rogue, telepath and many, many other variants, feats and PrCs, it seems its never able to nail down his rather elusive (to be polite) character concept. Everything is either teh suxxor (despite the fact that his build was FAR from optimised to begin with) or isnt in keeping with this mystical, seemingly impossible-to-recreate flava he wants to portray. At one point (this has been a long, ongoing process) he wanted to be 'a master of psionic combat). When I let him know about Mindscape and suggested he go telepath, he said he didnt like the idea of a telepath because it was (wait for it) 'too stereotypical!!!!!!! :nonono: He has gone from telling me he wants to be a sneaky infiltrator to a master of psionic combat. And his flaws and traits (pathetic, murky eyed, cautious and dishonest) have f**k all to do with his stats and how he portrays his char: Me: you have 18 con and 14 dex, dude! how could you possibly be considered pathetic? Him: I play my patheticness (not a word) for strength Me: Your str is 11. Thats average, not pathetic. Him:... Also, despite choosing the traits cautious and dishonest (which I think should just be, you know, ROLEPLAYED!!!! :rant: ), he frequently acts in a forthright and aggressive fashion and helps people. While this isnt a bad thing per se, it sure as sugar aint dishonest! But what really gets my goat is that when I told him he would have to get rid of the traits and flaws, he sent me an email saying HE COULDNT PORTRAY THE CHARACTER CONCEPT ANYMORE AND WANTED TO MAKE A NEW CHARACTER!!! You have to understand that this ultimatum (for that is what it is) comes after hours of planning and building the character he has now. His complaint was 'he shouldnt have made a character to roleplay but to play'. The link to the Stormwind fallacy should be blindingly obvious to one and all, but what he doesnt seem to understand is that I have a campaign to run! I cant be taking forever to quest for the Holy Grail that is his sacred character concept. Anyhoo, this is the build I made for him. Quar MKIII Elan male psychic rogue1/ psion (egoist) 3 HP 1d6 plus 3d4+12 (4 for psionic body & renewal); hp 25 (I rolled 2,2,3) Init: +4 Speed: 30 ft AC: 16 (+4 dex, +2 leather); touch 14, flat-footed 12 BAB/grapple: +1/+1 Atk: +0(bone dagger) 1d4-1/19-20 x2 or +5 (light crossbow) 1d6/19-20 x2 Space/Reach: 5ft/- Saves: Fort: +3 Ref: +7 Will: +6 Abilities: Str 11 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 19 Wis 17 Cha 13 Skills: autohypnosis +6, bluff +9 (+13 with telempathic projection), concentration +10, craft (poisonmaking) +6, disguise +14 (+24 with everyman), listen +8, spot +10, hide +11, move silently +11, knowledge (psionics) +6, knowledge (arcana) +5, psicraft +5, search +6, literacy Skill trick: assume quirk Feats: renewal, skill focus (disguise), psionic body Power points: 21 Powers known: 8 1) defensive precognition, thicken skin, mind thrust, force screen, skate, telempathic projection 2) animal affinity, everyman If he finds fault with it, I dont know what Im going to do. But I think it might involve 3d6, arrange as desired...good luck trying to get scores like you had b4! End rant Chahir
Lycanthromancer 12-07-07, 11:53 AM	Tell him to find a pre-existing character (such as Cloud from FF7, or Lara Croft, or even Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender), that he wants flavor-and-mechanics-wise, then build to that. If he doesn't like it, tell him to tough it out, or to sit it out. Much easier that way.
TheKeyofE 12-07-07, 12:02 PM	Sounds to me that this player doesn't realize D&D is a COOPERATIVE game. From your descriptions, I'm inclined to think that he thinks he's the only one who matters. You, your fun, and the other players' fun (there are other players, right? Your first post didn't specify) apparently don't matter to him. But with that being said, I second Lycan. Make him give you an example from another source of where he wants to go. If he wanted a sneaky covert-ops type, is he thinking Sam Fisher/Solid Snake, or something else entirely? Lurk or Psionic Rogue (or even plain Rogue :P) would work for either of those two. EDIT: And I understand about having an awesome concept in mind but being hard-pressed to fit it into D&D, so I can almost sympathize with your player. However, what keeps me from doing so is your description of his attitude. He sounds like an emo drama-queen, who doesn't actually have a strong concept in mind, he just doesn't want to take the good stuff you're giving him.
AntiDjinn 12-07-07, 12:59 PM	A cool character concept is something you build towards. Abilities are added as the character levels and the character's story is written by the DM, player, and the rest of the group. If any character starts out with 100% of what the player wants, then why bother to play? XP and additional levels would be irrelevant if you start from perfect. If your player wants to have all character development be backstory, and to have a character exactly as he envisions at the onset, then tell him to grab a word processor and write a story. That is the medium appropriate for what he is describing and there is no point in wasting everyone else's time. Of course, his character's story will have to be told in flashback, generally a lame literary device for novels, since he can't seem to imagine the character's start point as the start point of the story. I can't stand lazy players who expect the DM to design a character for them. I would tell him that the term for a character built entirely by the DM is NPC. If you really need this guy in your group, then try asking him what he envisions for his character by level 10. If his goals are reasonable, then use the benchmarks set to help him make a level 1 character who is on the right path to be the character he wants at some point in the game.
Scion of Coldshard 12-07-07, 01:00 PM	So level 4, most books allowed, and 11, 14, 15, 17, 18, 18 with a +1 from hd for stats? Can we move those around? I will hopefully have some time this afternoon/evening and will see what I can come up with for sneaky covert ops guy ;) Is eberron material ok? What about savage species?
Lycanthromancer 12-07-07, 01:02 PM	Also remember that flavor is entirely mutable. Take my gestalt character from the other thread. It's likely to be a thrallherd build, but I'm turning into a necromancer/abomination combination. You wouldn't think there'd be room for much horror in an incarnate/erudite gestalt combo, but there is. :D
Chahir 12-07-07, 01:35 PM	Thanks again guys for your ideas and opinions! I emphatically do not mean to put down the player. He IS a good roleplayer and generally tends to choose interesting characters with a 'unique' flavour. Admittedly, that flavour tends to make them less than perfect as team members. I am just a bit frustrated (as you might have already gathered) from the endless fiddling with the char (i.e. can I take this feat? what about that feat?) since the campaign has been going for three sessions. And I am frankly ****** off by this 'I want a new character because I cant realise my character concept without flaws/traits' BS. There are three other players (elf evoker, human fighter, 1'2 elf ranger1/cleric3), but it is Quar who generally takes the initiative on party actions. I have tried asking him about what he wants. The conversation went thusly: Me: where do you see Quar at level 10? Him: I want to be a sneaky psionic character Me:what about psychic rogue? Him: naah Me: what about lurk Him: It sucks Me: what about.... you get the idea :rolleyes: The thing is bacause Ive put so much effort into Quar, I cant stand the idea of him ditching it (with no apparent thought for how this affects the campaign) and creating a new frikkin' char. All that time I spent trying to get him the right kind of toon down the drain :confused: What pisses me off even more is that he writes it down to him trying to pick a character to roleplay (see Stormwind fallacy) instead of play. Frankly, I do not see the contradiction. I also do not see how losing traits and flaws prevents him from realising his character concept. And HE claims to be tired of working on the character! AntiDjinn: :clap: Lycanthromancer: I couldnt agree more with the mutability of flavour. Its a pity that the player seems to hold a different opinion (despite professing to be solely interested in roleplaying said character) TheKeyofE: I know where you are coming from. But is a covert ops psionic type REALLY so hard to fit into D&D mechanics? I think not. I dont really think he's an emo-drama queen, but this has been a frustrating experience to say the least. Scion of Coldshard: I have already posted a build for him (elan psychic rogue 1/psion(egoist)3). Eberron stuff is fine. I look forward to seeing your build. Chahir
PhaedrusXY 12-07-07, 02:01 PM	The skill-monkey psion is kind of tough to pull off. Here is a build of mine that is listed in the Psion Buildguide (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8968079&postcount=8) I think would be fun to try. The only thing from CPsi is Practiced Manifester. I don't own the 3rd party books you mention. They could probably be used to improve this. Carnivore also suggested using Feat Rogue as an entry, instead of all the multiclassing. "The Hunter" Elan Rogue2/Ranger1/Ftr1/Psion(Egoist)2/Elocater7/Slayer7 Manifester Level 13 (17 w/PrM) BAB +16 Base Saves: Fort +8, Reflex +12, Will +13 (can also add: +2 Fort. psicrystal, +4 Elan Resistance) 1 Rogue1 Dodge (1), [+1d6 SA] 2 Ftr1 Mobility (b) 3 Psion1 Point Blank Shot (Psicrystal Containment), Psionic Shot (Psicrystal Affinity) (b) 4 Psion2 5 Rogue2 [Evasion] 6 Ranger1 Track(b), Spring Attack 7 Elocater1 Sidestep Charge (b), [Scorn Earth] 9 El3 Practiced Manifester 12 El6 Craft Power Stone (Empower), [Transporter] 13 El7 [Capricious Step] 14 Slayer1 [Favored Enemy, Enemy Sense] 15 Slayer2 Metamorphic Transfer, [Brain Nausea] 16 [Lucid Buffer] 17 [Favored Enemy +4] 18 Slayer5 Split Psionic Ray (or Overchannel) 19 [Cerebral Blind] 20 Slayer7 (Feats in parenthesis are to be picked up later using Psychic Reformation.) [Class abilities are in brackets] Powers: 1st: Crystal Shard, Entangling Ectoplasm, Vigor, Energy Ray, Body Adjustment 2nd: Share Pain, Animal Affinity, Ego Whip, Energy Adaptation: Specified 3rd: Dispel Psionics, Touchsight, Time Hop, Body Adjustment, Plane Shift, Teleport 4th: Metamorphosis, Correspond, Divination, Wall of Ectoplasm (Psychic Reformation originally), Trace Teleport (or Intellect Fortress) 5th: Psionic Revivify, Power Resistance, Psychofeedback, (took 4th) 6th: Disintegrate, Temporal Acceleration, Contingency 7th: Fission Items: Gloves of Object Reading, Third Eye of Remote Viewing Tactics: The psicrystal is there to use Share Pain on, to use Aid Another, and to make separate skill checks. If you start at low levels you're better off taking Psionic Shot instead, and then Psychic Reforming it away at 7th level, if you think you can get access to the power. In the low levels, you're basically just the party "trapmonkey"/scout. You won't be doing alot of damage, and you'll be kind of vulnerable. With Psionic Shot + Sneak Attack on a Crystal Shard, you'll at least be able to do a bit of damage. At level 7, you get access to 2nd level powers. If you can get your hands on it, use Psychic Reformation to exchange Point Blank Shot and Psionic Shot for Psicrystal Affinity and something else (Mage Slayer?). Use Share Pain on your Psicrystal, and you will become much more durable, and can start risking melee. Conveniently, you just got two feats to help you there, proficiency with all Martial Weapons, and the ability to "fly". At level 12+, turn into a Hydra and use Capricious Step to move up, bite with all your heads, and move back again. Do this while hovering over your enemies head, and use your reach to stay out of theirs, if possible. You should be able to dish out quite alot of damage. You can also share Metamorphosis with your Psicrystal, if you want. You'll be able to dish out even more damage, but will be more vulnerable defensively because your Psicrystal could easily die (and not be sharing your pain anymore). At level 13, get Psychic Reformation and use it as discussed earlier, if you haven't already. Make yourself a Power Stone of it, then get rid of the feat and the power. Your feats should look like the ones in parenthesis at this point. This option is really only here for campaigns in which you couldn't do this at level 7. At level 15+, you'll have alot more tools thanks to Metamorphic Transfer. At level 20, you can use Fission to double all of this, if you want.
Chahir 12-07-07, 02:17 PM	Cheers PhaedrusXY! This is a nice build, but I think the said player would have a problem with it for the following reasons: 1) doesnt want to lose manifester levels.... AT ALL! EVER! UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! 2) doesnt like flavour of/doesnt want to 'be' elocator, slayer or ranger :confused: 3) doesnt like psicrystals You see the pattern :) For the moment I will just wait for him to respond to my revamp of his char and see what he says. The psychic rogue gives good skill points and his high int does help in that respect. Thanks again for the build, though Chahir
Scion of Coldshard 12-07-07, 02:36 PM	All of the advantages with none of the costs? What does he think this is, cleric world? ;)
Chahir 12-07-07, 02:54 PM	All I can say to that is thank god that the group cleric knew what he was doing with his character generation :D On a more serious note, it does seem kinda like the player is trying to construct something with no weaknesses. At all. At 4th level. That makes baby Jesus cry :weep: Chahir
RobbyPants 12-07-07, 03:47 PM	I am rebuilding a PC for my campaign who wants a 'covert ops type, sneaky disguise' PC but hasnt been happy with any of the alternatives I have been able to offer. Well, for psionic flavor, as mentioned, there's the shadowmind PrC. Depending on what exactly you mean by covert ops, there's the spymaster PrC from Complete Adventurer. It's a 7 level class that works at getting deep into disguises that are hard to see though. There's also the Theif Acrobat (same book) that would work for a sneak-in-and-get-the-job-done type operative.
Wizard Random 12-07-07, 03:52 PM	It sounds to me like he doesn't want to even play a psionic character. Not lose manafistor levels? If you wanna prestige you are going to loose levels in there somewhere, someone before mentioned a changeling I would go with that. A changeling would cover most of the "hide in plain sight" stuff without actually depending on skill points, and a telepath would cover the rest (because of the domain powers) When find people who make a stink about what flaws/traits/bloodlines they want to take I just deny them the book, if they complain simply say you "want to challenge their role playing potential and their player skill as a whole" (that actually work one time) It sounds to me like he is getting hyped over all the "options" available to him and is freaking out over the freedom. Kinda like picking out a pet. Now that I begin to dwell on this character a Changeling Psychic Rogue sounds really nifty, and any shortcomings can be fixed with equipment. :plotting:
Chahir 12-07-07, 04:02 PM	Im sure theres a way to do this without losing manifester levels. The psy rogue/psion accomplishes that. But a PrC is just too much of a headache since he cant even settle down on a regular class!!! The character is already an elan. That aint going to change. I agree with you about the too much freedom. At a certain point it just becomes a distraction. All this jazz with the traits, bloodlines etc just reeks of wtfery to me. Him: I have bloodline of air! I dont need to breathe! :D Me: You wasted a feat on that :confused: OK whatever, roll your grapple check against the dire lion already! Con 18 Str 11 Dex 14 does not a pathetic character make IMNSHO. All this time & effort could have been better spent in planning encounters that the whole group will enjoy. Chahir
rilem 12-07-07, 04:06 PM	Im sure theres a way to do this without losing manifester levels. The psy rogue/psion accomplishes that. As carnivore noted in the other thread, no it doesn't. It gives you a ML of 1 and 3, not 4.
Talcon 12-07-07, 04:12 PM	lets start with adding the dark template to Changling that pretty much make you super sneak and master of disguise 1 level rogue then 3 telepath Psion. I not much up on psionics so I need to read up on powers what do you need for Shadowmind?
Chahir 12-07-07, 04:22 PM	Rilem: Thanks for clearing that up for me (and Carnivore as well :D ). I did look carefully but didnt see it mentioned in the class write up. Oh well...you takes the good with the bad and I honestly dont think one manif lvl will make the character unplayable from either a mechanics or RP perspective. Talcon: since the characters already an elan, I cant/wont change this. As far as Im concerned, every parameter nailed down in concrete is a small step towards ensuring that this toon actually gets definitively (and by that I mean no more feat changes) defined and put into action. While shadowmind looks promising, Ill save the fireworks and dancing bears for when the player actually decides upon a build! Chahir
The_Mess 12-07-07, 05:47 PM	1) doesnt want to lose manifester levels.... AT ALL! EVER! UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!! 2) doesnt like flavour of/doesnt want to 'be' elocator, slayer or ranger :confused: 3) doesnt like psicrystals Well, I can certainly understand the first. Manifester levels are precious. That having been said, I don't mind losing one or two. How many level 9 powers do you need, anyway? For the others, I invoke the power of *drum roll* *reverb effect* REFLAVOR AS NEEDED. The psion I'm playing online has the Psicrystal feat, but hauling a crystal around with her didn't sound like fun. Instead, she has a third eye on the back of her head. That explains the alertness feat and +3 spot bonus. It's not quite as good as a natural eye, so it's not true 360º vision (at least, unless I can find a feat to cover that!). It can pop out and look around a bit when needed. Everything a psicrystal can do, MUCH cooler. Well, as always with coolness, YMMV, but it makes the flavor for me. If you don't mind me asking, is this they guy's first D&D game? He sounds a bit like he's used to point-buy systems, a la Gurps or White Wolf. I've always found levels and feat slots constricting compared to point-buy systems.
Talcon 12-07-07, 06:25 PM	ok sorry clicked reply and went to do something, didn't see your post ,he has going with Elan
Chahir 12-07-07, 06:25 PM	Its far from his first D&D game. Dude's been playing since 1st edition. Come to think of it, I think he fancies himself a bit of an optimiser. Now, I know as surely as day is bright that I cannot hold a candle to some of the heavies who throw their weight around on these boards. But this guy's idea of a viable char is a halfling (race of air: whoopee he doesnt need to breathe or eat :dancin: ) rog 3/ necromancer 5. His class features were altered so he could only have a skeleton familiar (who sucked at combat). Also, he had a MW crowbar. He was a grave robber, name of Hands. Cool RP, no doubt. CO, I don' tink so! :weep: As I said, crazy good roleplayer. But sadly lacking in CO street-cred. To say the least. Chahir
Scion of Coldshard 12-07-07, 07:19 PM	Ok, probably not really what you are looking for.. but I started having fun and then ran away with the ideas ;) This guy has a good portion of the skill set that the player desires, has full manifesting, and has a decent amount of combat prowess (but not great). Psionic minor creation gives him the ability to have the right tool for any job, being an elan he is unlikely to need food, the hat of disguise makes for a good way to look like whoever he pleases, the bag of tricks is useful in various situations such as when a move silently check is failed while infiltrating a place (I guess that noise was just that cat over there...), the elements mantle provides a nice variety of help in different situations (reduces falling damage, bonus on balance checks, fire damage, swim speed, etc).. he can make people like him more, he can walk along any stone surface, he can confuse people for as long as he wishes, and he can make an area brighter or dimmer or even attack someone with their own torch! From day to day he can change his gear to suit whatever situation comes up within the reduced gp limit, so flexibility to a given task is always just a day away... If I was able to bring a new guy into a campaign I am in at the moment I certainly wouldnt mind playing this guy! He looks like a lot of fun ;) Elan Ardent (CPsi) 4 Str 11 Dex 18 Con 15 Int 18 Wis 18 (+1 from 4 hd) Cha 12 Feats: Martial Study (ToB, Shadow Blade Technique, Hide as a class skill, 1st), Self Reliance (described below, theme is based on improving living shadow and trained by the same people who turned him into an elan which the character devotes the vast majority of incoming wealth back to keeping only enough to keep himself going and to put stashes of emergency gear everywhere he visits, 3rd), Bonus feats: improved psicrystal (1st, 2nd, 4th), Mantle feat: Psicrystal affinity (using living shadow version described below) Self Reliance Prereqs: At least 1 stat 16+ or at least 3 stats 14+ (before racial bonuses) Benefit: You disdain the use of most equipment, preferring instead to rely upon yourself. Your conviction is so strong that you gain benefits above your fellows who rely on outside devices. Each day you may spend 1 hour in preparation to gain the benefits of this feat. The ritual is particular to the individual and can be anything from meditation to calisthenics to running the fastest mile that they can. Performing this ritual for additional time in a single day provides no additional mechanical benefit. After this ritual you take half of the gp allotted for your level and spend it on virtual items. This gives you the benefits of those items and the slots that they use are considered filled. Items which require a certain amount of time equipped before they will function properly must be chosen for the requisite amount of time in a row in order to function properly. If you wish to increase an item directly you must have a basic version of the item equipped to gain the benefit (i.e. if you want a +1 shield you must have a shield equipped, but during that day any shield you equip is treated as +1 while you wear it appropriately). Items like staffs and wands must have a physical analog to use as a focus and you may only use effects which are personal only (each must be at the full 50 charges value, the only exception to this is the luck blade which may be purchased with less than its full compliment of wishes, note of course that if a wish is used from an item gained through this feat its effects may only be personal only). A potion analog is held in a normal potion vial and filled with any liquid you like, but its scent, taste, and color change to match your mental image of what a potion with its effects should smell, taste, and look like. Items like sovereign glue and bags of holding must also have a physical analog, such as mundane glue, and lose their non-mundane effects if the items cost is not paid at a future date. You also gain 1 bonus feat for each even level you have +1 for first level. You must meet the normal requirements for these feats and they should fit within the theme of how the character is self reliant either directly or by building towards a feat that does. A theme must be specific to the character with a fairly narrow focus. A player and dm should work out what feats are allowable, but the list should be as close to the core theme as possible. The benefits gained from the ritual disappears after 24 hours. Special: You may only use basic equipment. You can only use simple weapons, light armor, and light shields. You can also use miscellaneous adventuring equipment (rope, torches, flasks of acid, etc) as long as each item is worth less than or equal to 10 gp (if you made the item yourself this value increases by 5gp per rank you have in the appropriate skill). No item you use can be of masterwork quality, or made of a superior material (mithral, adamantine, cold iron, etc). The virtual items granted by this feat do not count for the purposes of this restriction. Should you use a prohibited item, you lose the benefit of this feat for 1 day per 1,000 gp the item is worth (minimum 1 day). Note, you need to actually use the item; it is acceptable to carry expensive objects and treasure as long as the items in question are not used. For example, picking up a vorpal sword is fine, but picking up a luckstone is not unless you can somehow not gain its benefit (such as by already having the benefits of a luckstone through paying for it with your daily allotment of money). Any permanent bonuses you have (such as inherent bonuses from wishes) reduce the value you may spend each day by half their normal value. Extra special: The character still receives their full value of money from the adventuring group but it is simply disdained in some fashion by the character. Some donate it to charities, others buy rounds at the bar until it is gone, some sink it into hidden stashes of emergency supplies strewn across every land and plane they can reach.. whatever their method of dispersement though they rarely have more than the bare essentials in equipment and supplies preferring instead to make due with whatever is at hand and trust in themselves to work out a way to get through. Psicrystal altnerative: Living shadow (all of the normal psicrystal traits except that it is normally attatched to the character, it may be sent off but while it is not attatched the character has a -2 penalty on all rolls. Same penalty while it is destroyed and it reforms after 1 day) Improved psicrystal works on it normally. It is treated as a normal creature so it can be targeted normally and will be effected by area effects if it is in the area. While moving on its own it can move through any crack the character could if one of his dimensions was reduced to 1/2 inch and while in areas of shadowy illumination or dimmer it gains a +8 racial bonus to hide and has the Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) ability while in areas of brighter illumination it suffers a -8 penalty. Mantles: Skill (described below), Mind Divided (described below), Elements (CPsi pg 68) Skill Mantle Granted Ability: When you become psionically focused get a +3 bonus to one skill, a +2 bonus to 2 skills, or a +1 bonus to all skills. These bonuses are competence bonuses and the bonus you receive cannot be larger than the number of ranks that you have in that skill. 1 Call to mind 1 Psionic Minor Creation 2 Psionic Identify 2 Zone of Alertness 3 Realized Potential 4 Psychic Reformation 6 Psychometry 8 Hypercognition 9 Metafaculty Mind Divided Granted Ability: Gain Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat or Improved Psicrystal if you already have it. 1 Telempathic Projection 2 Id Insinuation 2 Mental Disruption 3 Personality Parasite 4 Death Urge 4 Schism 4 Suggestion, Implanted 5 Psychotic Break 6 Fission 7 Insanity Skills (ranks): Autohypnosis (5), Concentration (5), Diplomacy (5), Hide (5), Knowledge (arch and eng) (5), Know (local) (5), Know (nob and roy) (5), Move Silently (cc2), Psicraft (5) Virtual items from Self Reliance feat (2700 gp): Hat of Disguise (1800 gp), Bag of Tricks (gray) (900 gp) Regular items: Basic gear as desired, none of which may be more than 10gp each Powers Known 1st: Control Flames, Psionic Minor Creation, Telempathic Projection 2nd: Earth Walk (CPsi), Id Insinuation PP: 23 Living Shadow (stats as a normal psicrystal, 3 improved feats make it 3 levels higher for abilities) [personalities: coward (+3 hide), friendly (+3 diplomacy), nimble (+2 initiative), sneaky (+3 move silently) Shadow duplicate: Prereqs: living shadow, improved psicrystal x3; Benefit: As a full-round action that provokes aoo’s you may turn your living shadow into an exact duplicate of yourself as per the Fission power except that both you and your duplicate gain 1 negative level that cannot be removed and goes away when the ability is ended and it lasts for 1 hour (at the end of this duration if both the character and the duplicate spend 1 pp the effect continues for another hour, repeat as desired). During this time neither of you gain the benefits from the psicrystal effects and both have the -2 penalty to all rolls. Neither you nor your duplicate have a shadow for this duration and the duplicate does not get a psicrystal even though it may have the feat to gain one. The two cannot be separated by more than a mile, if they are then the duplicate disappears, the characters shadow reappears, the negative level from the ability goes away, and the character gains a new negative level that persists for 1 hour. In any round where one or the other of the two manifests a power, casts a spell, or uses a spell-like/psi-like ability the other may not do any of those four things that round (ie if one manifests a power the other may not manifest, cast, or use a X-like ability that round)
Chahir 12-07-07, 08:36 PM	Thanks Scion! Again, I am flattered and impressed by the outpouring of support and helpful builds from the boardz :D However, although your build is 'teh shizzle liek teh boss' (sic) I feel that introducing ardent at this stage could make the whole character concept slide back several light years (i.e what about this mantle, can I try that mantle ....). As I say, it does have a lot of what he says he wants to recreate in his mystikal build. Perhaps some bardic music would be appropriate: (shake yo' ass, watch yourself, shake yo' ass, show me what your workin' with :D I done told y'all etc.) However, he seems dead set against psicrystals or anything that resembles them. To be honest, thats fine with me. Ive done all I can. SO have you guys. This may be the most finnicity player in the world. Give yourselves a pat on the back Chahir
Lokiyn 12-07-07, 09:17 PM	Here's a suggestion that may or may not help (i've used this once with mixed results.) Whatever build you use, don't give him the actual class names (like rogue 2/ fighter 2 or some such) Instead write down some dramatic sounding name like "Forgotten Shadow hand" or something equally silly. Usually with this type of player when they see this and think that you are writing up a special class "just for them" they eat it up down to the last bit. Later when thier character dies or the campaign ends, you give them the write up that wasn't reflavored to show them that the problem was never the mechanical representation of the character, it was the players perception of the mechanics. As for the psicrystal i took that with a player and said fine, i'll give you a crystal "eye" Gave him a print out with the psicrystal stats told him it was a round eye the same color as his own with legs that would later grow to wings, but it absorbed a powerpoint each day. Come to think of it it almost sounds like this player wants to build something along the lines of "The Shadow"
The_Mess 12-07-07, 09:29 PM	Where are the Mind Divided and Skills mantle from? And the Self Reliance ritual? Or are they homebrew?
Salla 12-07-07, 09:38 PM	Here's a whacked idea. Got the Tome of Battle? Show him the Swordsage and flavor it to psionics. :)
Chahir 12-07-07, 11:13 PM	Again I have to sound my agreement with you folks. But I just want him to pick a simple, down to earth character and stick to it. This shouldnt be that hard at 4th level, should it? ToB and all that jazz would just give this player even more scope. And if he had been able to make a ToB influenced core +psi PC only I would be removing your brain tumors :D The Mess: I dont know. I am busy statting up the session for sunday.Ask Scion of Coldshard. I know they are homebrew. But when someone like this comes along, lie down I say. No fife did hum Nor battle drum did sound its brave tattoo. But the nerfy spells or the Liffe swell rang out through the foggy dew. Right proudly high over Dublin town, they hung the out the flag of war. Twas' better to die to die neath an Irish sky than at Southa or Southalba. And from the plains of royal meadh, strong men came hurrying through. While Brittanias sons with their long range guns sailed in through the foggy dew. Regards Chahir (who is drunk and sentimental :D )
Tiarn 12-08-07, 01:21 AM	I've continued reading the many posts and I believe that your problems are nearly the exact as mine were. I can offer you this advice, it worked for me: Stop. That's right. Stop it. Your player (at least as far as I can tell, I haven't actually been there for any of these conversations so I'm acting only on the knowledge that I have) is simply attention-needy. He wants you to dote on him, make his character special, etc. Explain to him matter-of-factly that he is not the only player in the game (at least I assume he isn't, if he is then my advice won't work so well) and you need to devote your time to other things, like running a good session. Tell him the game is on Sunday at 3 (or whatever day/time) and you are eager to see his character (whether the old one or a new one) concept/build. Tell him it would be cool if he narrowed it down to class/party job (i.e. tank, blaster, healer, etc) before then so you can adequately prepare for the session. After that, simply stop helping him. You've already poured hours (I assume) of time into trying to help him get just the right character for nothing but continual compaining. If he's been playing since 1st ed. he knows how to make a character. So let him. One of two things will happen: 1) He shows up to the game on Sunday with a new (or the old) character, ready and eager to play. With a little work I'm sure a competant DM such as yourself can get him into the game with little fuss. 2) He doesn't show up with a character on Sunday. Either way you win. If #2 happens, he simply didn't really want to play in the first place and you're down a needy player. May not work for you, but hopefully it will.
Pandapeep 12-08-07, 02:03 AM	Sounds like he has a race chosen, but, if he wants to be sneaky, you can't beat a whisper gnome. They have a CHA penalty, but, they get a DEX and CON boost, so, it balances. A +8 to hide, +4 to move silently, silence 1/day (up to three for a feat). Throw in the Dark template from Tome of Magic and for a +1 LA you get +16 to hide, +10 to move silently, as well as Hide in Plain Sight from the get go. If he has a DEX of even a scant 12, bad for a "sneaky" char imo, he starts out with a +17 to all hide checks without spending a single skill point.
calronmoonflower 12-08-07, 03:59 AM	calronmoonflower: he dismissed the lurk as 'being teh suxxor' (sic). Huh... I'm not fluent in kender! suxxor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suxxor#Haxor_and_Suxxor.2C_or_Suxorz) I have a tool that might help. Just apply to directly to the forehead. http://www.badongo.com/t/640/2402541.jpg (http://www.badongo.com/pic/2402541) Seriously, just tell him to make his own character. Where are the Mind Divided and Skills mantle from? And the Self Reliance ritual? Or are they homebrew? Divine Mind is a class from the Complete Psionic Mantles are from the same, but I don't get the skill part. The ritual if from the Dungeon Master's Guide II
The_Mess 12-08-07, 10:33 AM	Yes, I know mantles in general are from Complete Psionic (I'm apparently one of the few people who thought it was worthwhile despite some utter inanity), however, the "Mind Divided" and "Skills" mantles that were used in the build are *not* from Complete Psionic.
Chahir 12-08-07, 12:15 PM	The impasse is at an end. The guy OKd the build :D and games on tomorrow Me so happy! Chahir
Lycanthromancer 12-08-07, 12:22 PM	Yay?
Salla 12-09-07, 05:33 PM	Yay? http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/Yay.jpg
Scion of Coldshard 12-09-07, 07:37 PM	Did he go with the rogue/psion? I would've gone with the ardent personally ;)
Chahir 12-10-07, 02:45 AM	Yeah, I gues that could have worked. The problem now is that I feel bad since I have optimised the char out of all proportion to the other members of the group. Oh well, its Dark Sun. Death will not be long in coming. Chahir