Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crizhII 04-09-07, 01:58 PM	Perhaps I'm losing my touch but I can't make head nor tail of Psicrown pricing. The Psicrown, and to some extent the dorje, rules are completely schizo. Not only to both have that ridiculous guff about augmenting driving up power level as well as ML they also say something about a 5 level cap on augmentation. But both only say it in the Item creation chapter, both have incorrect examples, one corrected in errata to be fair, and the section in the feats chapter doesn't say anything about boosted Power Level or an augmentation cap and then goes on to provide an example that is consistant with the feats section being correct. And just to add insult to injury almost every single Psicrown, as far as I can tell, is priced wrong. Like the editor took several tabs of acid before checking the calculations, wrong. And half of them are ignoring the augmentation cap and power level boost nonsense. I think. What the heck is going on there, why has nobody mentioned this in the FAQ and how do we fix it?!
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-09-07, 02:09 PM	Psionic powers don't cap like spells do, and as such follow different pricing guidelines. However, the guidelines are guidelines, use your own judgement accordingly. Most people just don't make their own psionic items. Psionics is relatively self-sufficient compared to magic. Magic also has the benefit of having highly specialized spells to fill niche effects, while psionic powers tend to be very versatile.
Zemyla 04-09-07, 02:35 PM	My problem with psicrowns is that they go on the head. Where am I supposed to put my headband of intellect now?
InkBlot 04-09-07, 04:28 PM	Where does it say that psicrowns actually take up the head slot? Anyway, in the two games I ran I put drilbu in the treasure (which the PC's never found) instead of psicrowns. Same stats and rules as a psicrown, different appearance. Drilbu (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=drilbu&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) are hand-held bells used in meditation, often in conjunction with a dorje (http://drilbudorje.tripod.com/_Dorje.htm).
ChimericalWolf 04-09-07, 05:31 PM	My problem with psicrowns is that they go on the head. Where am I supposed to put my headband of intellect now? Magic Item Compendium to the rescue! Psicrown of the Astral Legion of Intellect (+6)! Price? Psicrown of the Astral Legion (47, 250) + HboI (36,000) = 83,250!
crizhII 04-09-07, 05:35 PM	Magic Item Compendium to the rescue! Psicrown of the Astral Legion of Intellect (+6)! Price? Psicrown of the Astral Legion (47, 250) + HboI (36,000) = 83,250! There's a cookie in it if you can give a lucid explanation of the price for the psicrown of Astral Legion....
ChimericalWolf 04-09-07, 05:40 PM	Pfft, lucid isn't my bag, baby. And your cookie can't compare with my sibling's chocolate bunnies. Mom's on a diet, so the bunny-reaping is all me! I dun feel so good...
Racinante 04-10-07, 02:03 PM	There's a cookie in it if you can give a lucid explanation of the price for the psicrown of Astral Legion.... Allow me the honor of some prestidigitation... (I must warn you, however, that this is just prestidigitation.) Astral Legion Psicrown: 375*18*7 = 47,250 So, where did the 7 come from? Minimum caster level for a psicrown is 8 so Astral Construct was paid for as if it were (18-8)/2 = 5 levels higher than normal. Of course, this implies that AC was originally a level 2 power instead of a level 1 power, or that the original plan was to require psicrowns to have a minimum caster level of 6. As it stands, however, the cost of the Astral Legion psicrown, unless I am missing something should have been 375*18*6 = 40,500.
crizhII 04-10-07, 04:40 PM	Far as I can tell the Psicrown of Astral Legion is illegal. Minimum ML for a Psicrown is 8. Maximum ML is minimum ML of highest level power plus 5. In this case that would make it's maximum ML (6) lower than the minimum ML and thus not possible. I suppose you could say that the second condition is limited to at least the first. Regardless the Psicrown of Astral Legion is still a load of old rubbish. I prefer to just use the Wand and Staff rules and ignore all that rubbish about increased Power Level and augmentation cap. My point here is that ALL of the Psicrowns in the EPH and CPsi are total nonsense and nobody here has bothered to comment on that fact as far as I can tell.
ChimericalWolf 04-10-07, 04:46 PM	Perhaps it would make more sense to replace the mechanics of Psicrowns with the Runestaves of MIC?
Racinante 04-10-07, 05:39 PM	Maximum ML is minimum ML of highest level power plus 5. Where are you finding this? Edit: Got it, never mind.
Racinante 04-10-07, 07:04 PM	Most of the psicrown costing is straight forward. Astral Legion is a notable exception and may hark back to when AC was 9 different powers. For some of the others: Beast: This psicrown has 450 power points. It is made from a prickly collection of bear claws and snake fangs. It allows use of the following powers. * Claw of energy 4th level * Duodimensional claw 3rd level * Prevenom 1st level * Psionic lion's charge 2nd level * Truevenom 4th level Moderate psychometabolism; ML 9th; Craft Psicrown, Claw of energy, duodimensional claw, prevenom, psionic lion's charge, truevenom; Price 33,750 gp. Pricing: 4*9*375 + 4*9*375*0.75 + 3*9*375*0.50 + 2*9*375*0.50 + 1*9*375*0.50 = 33,750 Cautious Warrior: This psicrown has 450 power points. It is made from a shining iron alloy, similar to the material of a metallic shield. It allows use of the following powers. * Adapt body 5th level * Body adjustment 2nd level * Precognition, defensive 1st level * Inertial barrier 4th level Moderate psychometabolism; ML 9th; Craft Psicrown, adapt body, body adjustment, defensive precognition, inertial barrier; Price 32,063 gp. Pricing: 5*9*375 + 4*9*375*0.75 + 2*9*375*0.50 + 1*9*375*0.50 = 32,062.5 (rounded up to 32,063) Skipping a few now.... Temporal Juggler: This psicrown has 850 power points. It is made from silk, usually dyed in several colors, with a clear crystal affixed to the material. It allows use of the following powers. * temporal acceleration 6th level * Time hop 3rd level * Timeless body 9th level Strong psychoportation; ML 17th; Craft Psicrown, temporal acceleration, time hop, timeless body; Price 95,625 gp. Pricing (note 17th is the minimum manifester level for Timeless Body): 9*17*375 + 6*17*375*0.75 + 3*17*375*0.50 = 95,625 Great Dominator: This psicrown has 750 power points. It is made from black iron without further ornamentation. It allows use of the following powers. * Charm, psionic 1st level * Suggestion, psionic 2nd level * Dominate, psionic 4th level Strong telepathy; ML 15th; Craft Psicrown, psionic charm, psionic dominate, psionic suggestion; Price 45,000 gp. Pricing: Minimum manifester level for Dominate, psionic is 7th. Raising the ML to 15th requires raising Dominate, psionic's level to (15-7)/2 = 4 levels to 8th. 8*15*375 = 45,000 gp. 2*15*375*0.75 + 1*15*375*0.50 = 11,250 gp. Notice, however, that each of the other psicrowns have powers that are unique in and of themselves. Dominate, on the other hand supersedes both Charm and Suggestion, basically doing the same thing, but doing it better. Here Charm and Suggestion add nothing to the power of the psicrown so the cost of adding them can be ignored in calculating the cost. Hope this helps explain how the costing was done.
crizhII 04-10-07, 08:57 PM	Most of the psicrown costing is straight forward. Astral Legion is a notable exception and may hark back to when AC was 9 different powers. For some of the others: Pricing: 5*9*375 + 4*9*375*0.75 + 3*9*375*0.50 + 2*9*375*0.50 + 1*9*375*0.50 = 37125 Pricing: 5*9*375 + 4*9*375*0.75 + 2*9*375*0.50 + 1*9*375*0.50 = 32,062.5 (rounded up to 32,063) Skipping a few now.... Pricing (note 17th is the minimum manifester level for Timeless Body): 9*17*375 + 6*17*375*0.75 + 3*17*375*0.50 = 95,625 Pricing: Minimum manifester level for Dominate, psionic is 7th. Raising the ML to 15th requires (breaking the maximum increase of 5 manifester levels) raising Dominate, psionic's level to (15-7)/2 = 4 levels to 8th. 8*15*375 = 45,000 gp. 2*15*375*0.75 + 1*15*375*0.50 = 11,250 gp. Notice, however, that each of the other psicrowns have powers that are unique in and of themselves. Dominate, on the other hand supersedes both Charm and Suggestion, basically doing the same thing, but doing it better. Here Charm and Suggestion add nothing to the power of the psicrown so the cost of adding them can be ignored in calculating the cost. Hope this helps explain how the costing was done. Good luck selling freebies like that to my DM. Also those costs are the 'material' costs, i.e. the base cost is twice what you have calculated. Psicrown costs are a cut and paste of the Staff material from the DMG. If you look at the costs of the Staves in the DMG they all cost twice the cost described in the 'creation' section which is clearly described as the cost of the materials in that section.
Racinante 04-11-07, 10:19 AM	Good luck selling freebies like that to my DM. I can't help you with your DM. Also those costs are the 'material' costs, i.e. the base cost is twice what you have calculated. I just provided how they were costed, not whether the costing is correct. Also, on the Beast psicrown, the minimum manifester level for either of the two 4th level powers is nine, so there is no increase to 5th for the power. A PW can get the power at 13th level, but any psion can pick it up at 9th at the earliest with Expanded Knowledge. Psicrown costs are a cut and paste of the Staff material from the DMG. If you look at the costs of the Staves in the DMG they all cost twice the cost described in the 'creation' section which is clearly described as the cost of the materials in that section. True, unless it requires two charges to activate the spell instead of one. These psicrowns, in my opinion, are pointless at twice the cost and marginal at best with their current pricing. Now if you want to make new unique psicrowns, you have how they were costed in the XPH and can defend the new one if costed in the same manner. Whether that is technically correct based on the rules for crafting is another matter entirely. Good Luck
crizhII 04-11-07, 12:12 PM	My point here is that ALL of the Psicrowns in the EPH and CPsi are total nonsense and nobody here has bothered to comment on that fact as far as I can tell. I did spot that several of the Psicrowns were explicable given certain mistakes in how they were designed. That wasn't exactly my point though. My point is that the Psicrown (and Dorje) rules make no sense and are not even followed in the creation of the stock items. Additionally several of the Psicrowns do not exhibit any form of explicable pricing regardless of the errors that one can imagine slipping through the proof-reading net. I didn't notice that the Beast one was Psi-War. Thanks for pointing that out. Psicrowns don't cost 'two charges' to activate any of their powers. They effectively have 50 charges at their maximum power output, assuming a wielder of the same ML. Unlike Staves they don't have to be used at full power, and often can't be, and therefore often get many more than 50 uses. Seems to me that flexibility ought to cost more, don't you think?
Racinante 04-11-07, 02:35 PM	I prefer to just use the Wand and Staff rules and ignore all that rubbish about increased Power Level and augmentation cap. My point here is that ALL of the Psicrowns in the EPH and CPsi are total nonsense and nobody here has bothered to comment on that fact as far as I can tell. My point is that the Psicrown (and Dorje) rules make no sense and are not even followed in the creation of the stock items. Psicrowns don't cost 'two charges' to activate any of their powers. They effectively have 50 charges at their maximum power output, assuming a wielder of the same ML. Unlike Staves they don't have to be used at full power, and often can't be, and therefore often get many more than 50 uses. Seems to me that flexibility ought to cost more, don't you think? The only flaw with that logic is that if you have an ML of 8 in a psicrown and you want to augment the power to an ML of 20 when using the power, you have to spend all of those power points. For a wizard or sorcerer, all they have to do is use one charge. The downside being if you manifest the highest level power in the psicrown using a manifester level that is higher than the psicrown, you end up with fewer uses than a corresponding staff. If fact, you could end up with less than 25 uses if you augment the power to your manifester level. True, you can use some of the powers in the psicrown for less than a corresponding 'charge' from a staff, but doing so is rarely beneficial to a higher level manifester. So, yes, while flexibility is generally better, this is paid for by the reduced number of uses you get out of a psicrown compared to a staff. As for nobody commenting on the pricing of the existing psicrowns, this could be due to a combination of three things. 1) No one, who would care, has noticed. 2) Few are using the rules to create new psicrowns, preferring to just use the ones that are written up, hence haven't encountered the costing issue... or 3) Those who are creating their own are just fine with the way the rules are written up and either follow the examples or the rules explicitly. Me, I'm fine with using the psicrowns as examples for creating additional ones.
crizhII 04-11-07, 03:28 PM	Fair point about the charges. It probably balances out. I'm sure I can divine the edges of an exploit there but I think I'll work on that in private... Wouldn't want prying eyes catching on until its too late... As to pricing I think I'm going to vote for using the prices for Staves and Wands and ignore all the poorly conceived, contradictory nonsense in the EPH.
Racinante 04-11-07, 03:37 PM	As to pricing I think I'm going to vote for using the prices for Staves and Wands and ignore all the poorly conceived, contradictory nonsense in the EPH. Fair enough. Good luck with that.
Racinante 04-17-07, 02:28 PM	From the archive, for those who wonder if this has been discussed before: 02-25-05, 04:32 PM I challenge any one to find an interpretation that is compatible with the prices of the Psicrowns listed in the XPH :cool: I'll take up that challenge. First, a quote from the Psicrown description part: The minimum manifester level of a psicrown is 8th. The manifester level of a psicrown cannot be more than five levels higher than the minimum manifester level for the highest-level power in the psicrown. Standard psicrowns are described below. Then we'll tackle the easiest of the psicrowns, that of Astral Legion, which has excactly one power in it, and its manifester level is 18. "But psicrowns can't have a manifester more than five higher than the minimum for the highest-level power in it, and astral construct is 1st!" you say. Indeed, and to comply with that, we'll raise the effective level of astral construct to 7, so that its minimum manifester level now raises to 13, which is excactly five less than the manifester level that the psicrown has. Now all we need is a constant that is applied in the making of all psicrowns to get the final price. The closest magical equivalent, the staff, has a constant of 750gp. However, judging from the flavor text of the psicrown, it takes up the headband body slot of a character, so we'll halve that to 375gp for that restriction. And voíla! The price of a Psicrown of Astral Legion is 7 (effective level) x 18 (manifester level, note that 17 would've been enough to get the highest-level construct) x 375gp (constant modifier) = 47,250gp. Which is exactly the price given in the book. I'm quite sure that the principle works on the rest of 'em too. Just check the minimum manifester level(s) for the power(s) contained, and compare them to the manifester level of the item, raise the highest-level power's effective level if necessary, and remember to multiply the second-highest level power by 0.75, and third-highest and lower level powers by 0.50 (and keep in mind to use the same manifester level for all powers). So there :D Note also that the psicrown occupies the same slot as a headband while the staff is unslotted. Therefore by the magic item creation rules, the staff should cost twice that of the psicrown. A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn. * One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head A psicrown is a special headband that stores several powers.