Post/Author/DateTime	Post
siegfried1 06-21-07, 05:35 PM	Hi, I just read the texts on psicrystal feats. I personally agree that the rules suggest they do get feats (even if wotc didnt intend it this way). So I give them feats. I justr wonder which feats really make sense for these things? Has anybody ever thought this through? Any handful of tips which feats would really help it gain some meaningful edge?:confused:
crizhII 06-21-07, 07:28 PM	Weapon Finesse. Hellish difficult to deliver touch attacks without it...
DM-Scott 06-21-07, 08:09 PM	Skill boosting feats can be good. Some people like to take Wild Talent to make their psicrystals psionic as well, which doesn't seem super effective but is fun for flavor. :) Probably not the most potent feat, but it can lead to some fun things (like +10 speed of thought for your psicrystal during self-propulsion) when your psicrystal has been psionically focused (not to be confused with holding a psionic focus). For one that's just silly (and your DM will probably not allow) that's fun for NPCs, is the LEADERSHIP feat. 6HD Psicrystal with leadership with followers and cohorts! Heehee.
Bacris 06-21-07, 08:11 PM	For one that's just silly (and your DM will probably not allow) that's fun for NPCs, is the LEADERSHIP feat. 6HD Psicrystal with leadership with followers and cohorts! Heehee. Holy crap, if my DM didn't just flat-out ban leadership, I'd totally ask if I could do that. Could you imagine how fun that type of RP would be? "Bow down to your leader!" says the psion, holding up the sparkly crystal.
Tyroki 06-21-07, 08:12 PM	What would be fun is a Psicrystal with Leadership who attracts other psicrystals xD That would be funny as heck. !!! PSICRYSTAL SWARM!
crizhII 06-21-07, 08:53 PM	Skill boosting feats can be good. I gave mine Skill Focus:Healing. That gave it enough skill to take 10 on long term care checks. Makes a brilliant nurse, doesn't have to sleep and the party gets to heal extra every night. Very handy.
DM-Scott 06-21-07, 09:01 PM	Actually I'm now thinking of doing that for an NPC in my campaign. Telepath Thrallheard with leadership, and his psicrystal with leadership. It would indeed be pretty fun, and a cool way to make a BBEG or million-minion-man. :P I may begin stating this dude/dudet up tonight. I think I may have just found the evil mastermind behind our upcoming campaign's introduction.
TalonofTiamat 06-21-07, 09:15 PM	Thrallherds can't have leadership. It states that in the description of the Thrallherd class feature.
DM-Scott 06-21-07, 09:24 PM	Ahhh, darn. Forgot that. Would have noticed it when I went to stat out the NPC, but thank you for the heads up in advance. :)
The_Shaman 06-22-07, 03:12 AM	I would probably go for skill boosting, or for something that allows people near it to get some bonuses. Also, if you have feat leech, you can give it any feat you might want at some point :D
siegfried1 06-22-07, 04:23 AM	Good idea with healing skill. I wonder how you can take 10 there? The DC for that is 15 and the skill focus gives you +3. Since psicrystals have flat wis 10 scores they have no other bonuses. Is there any way to get additional skill ranks for a psicrystal? I thought they only get the +4s on listen etc.
siegfried1 06-22-07, 04:51 AM	Overall I currently would think of the following 4 feats for my 10 hd psicrystal: - combat reflexes (when I metamorph myself and it into monsters with reach) - skill focus healing (for long term care) - improved toughness (10 extra hp are not bad) - improved intiative (act faster when in combat, especially when metamorphed) What I also consider are: - improved flight (normally only poor) - deft opportunist (when metamorphed into monster with reach, a nice +4 to strike might help)
The_Shaman 06-22-07, 06:11 AM	Good idea with healing skill. I wonder how you can take 10 there? The DC for that is 15 and the skill focus gives you +3. Since psicrystals have flat wis 10 scores they have no other bonuses. Is there any way to get additional skill ranks for a psicrystal? I thought they only get the +4s on listen etc. Nope; except a minimum of 4 on listen etc; it uses your skill ranks: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks. Hence, it can be very nice for a psychic rogue, for example, even if it can't pick locks itself.
hovnarr 06-22-07, 09:48 AM	If you have Metamorphosis to share, have it take metamorphic transfer and possibly ability focus for abilities it uses often (Cloaker Stupor was a good choice, but I no longer agree they get feats so...).
Orchomenos 06-22-07, 10:26 AM	Silly question... A Psicrystal with Wild Talent can theorically be Psionically Focused. And if his Psion master has Psicrystal Containment, would he be Psionically Focused Twice? Fly-by attack can be great to deliver melee touch-spells.
crizhII 06-22-07, 10:36 AM	Good idea with healing skill. I wonder how you can take 10 there? The DC for that is 15 and the skill focus gives you +3. Since psicrystals have flat wis 10 scores they have no other bonuses. Is there any way to get additional skill ranks for a psicrystal? I thought they only get the +4s on listen etc. I have a couple of ranks. I suppose it could use a healing kit as well...
Scion of Coldshard 06-22-07, 12:51 PM	Holy crap, if my DM didn't just flat-out ban leadership, I'd totally ask if I could do that. Could you imagine how fun that type of RP would be? "Bow down to your leader!" says the psion, holding up the sparkly crystal. It would be fun, but I dont think that any old hd count as character levels. Either way, does anyone have a rules quote about it?
Bacris 06-22-07, 02:41 PM	You're right. HD / LA count toward ECL, but not character level. Character level is defined as total levels in classes. Bah, humbug.
PhaedrusXY 06-27-07, 03:50 PM	Mounted Combat, Ride-By-Attack, and Spirited Charge. Trample is another decent one. Then buy it a mount. :D
Fafnir 06-27-07, 04:33 PM	Mounted Combat, Ride-By-Attack, and Spirited Charge. Trample is another decent one. Then buy it a mount. :D To hell with the mount. Wear a saddle yourself. :D
Kyuketsukiouji 07-01-07, 01:03 AM	It's a pity Hidden Talent + Practiced Manifester + Expanded Knowledge doesn't actually work as a combo. On the other hand Hidden Talent (astral construct) + Skin of the Construct does work. I'm not seeing any reason why Hidden Talent + Psicrystal Affinity wouldn't work, I think... For the more silly... Illithid Heritage doesn't have any requirements about being actually...err...alive...
Syrkres 07-02-07, 10:34 AM	There are a few feats in the Complete Arcane or the Complete Mage, forget which one, but the feats are (IIRC) Spell Hand Night Haunt Insightful <forget last> But the above have no pre-reqs and give the ability to cast 1/day 3 minor spells each, like Unseen servant, Mage Hand, Detect Magic, Open, etc. Having a Psicrystal at your disposal that can do these would be great Swiss Army Knife... With Wings!
Racinante 07-02-07, 10:57 AM	You're right. HD / LA count toward ECL, but not character level. Character level is defined as total levels in classes. Bah, humbug. HD does actually: The creature's Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature's 'monster class' is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. and The total level of the character, which is the sum of all class levels held by that character. So character level = monster class (racial HD) + player character class
Lycanthromancer 07-02-07, 12:05 PM	http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/PsicrystalLeadership.jpg
Scion of Coldshard 07-02-07, 01:22 PM	So character level = monster class (racial HD) + player character class Effective character level = monster hd + LA + character classes Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL The monster class is in quotes and is talked about effective character level and is distinguised from actual character classes and level. Starting Level of a Monster PC Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.
Racinante 07-02-07, 02:12 PM	Effective character level = monster hd + LA + character classes The monster class is in quotes and is talked about effective character level and is distinguised from actual character classes and level. I know what ECL is. My post was in reference to character level for advanced monsters. The character level includes the 'monster class' (a virtual class, if you will) that is always a favored class and any player character class levels it gains. The level adustment, when added to this character level, determines its effective character level for advancement purposes.
Scion of Coldshard 07-02-07, 02:15 PM	I know what ECL is. My post was in reference to character level for advanced monsters. The character level includes the 'monster class' (a virtual class, if you will) that is always a favored class and any player character class levels it gains. The level adustment, when added to this character level, determines its effective character level for advancement purposes. So then you agree that the psicrystal does not qualify for leadership?
SKB 07-02-07, 02:40 PM	Vow of Poverty
Racinante 07-02-07, 02:59 PM	So then you agree that the psicrystal does not qualify for leadership? No I didn't say that. After reviewing several entries, I have come to the conclusion that there are several circumstantial statements that imply that a monster's HD counts as its character level and a few that imply that they do not. Nowhere is it specifically stated one way or the other. For example, the following quotes do imply that a psicrystal (given that it has HD) has a character level and would therefore qualify: Monsters and Class Levels A creature's 'monster class' is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Monster:Feats A monster gains feats just as a character does. Monster:Skills All listed skills are class skills, unless the creature has a character class (noted in the entry). A creature's type and Intelligence score determine the number of skill points it has. furthermore... Monsters as Races Character Level: The total level of the character, which is the sum of all class levels held by that character. Level: 'Character level' is a character's total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained. Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster's total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. so how can they be class skills if the monster has no class (no pun intended)? If the monster's race is considered its class, then its character level is its race with levels equal to its HD. In this case, the psicrystal can take Leadership. However, the following implies that monster HD do not count as a character levels: Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. and Hit Dice: A creature's Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill. So at this point I am undecided and would place this squarely in the realm of DM fiat. I probably would not allow it. This could be an interesting scenario for an adventure but could be easily abused by a player.
Racinante 07-02-07, 03:00 PM	Vow of Poverty No doubt.
Scion of Coldshard 07-02-07, 03:14 PM	After reviewing several entries, I have come to the conclusion that there are several circumstantial statements that imply that a monster's HD counts as its character level and a few that imply that they do not. None of the ones that you have provided so far state that monster hd counts as character levels. They count towards effective character level, but that is not the same. It even puts "monster class" in quotes! so how can they be class skills if the monster has no class (no pun intended)? (the following might sound harsh, I dont mean it to be, but I am not sure how to change it to not sound as such.. just brainstorming for possible reasons) Because the rules say so? Being class skills means that when you add real classes later on the maximum ranks you can have is different for class and cross-class skills. Or because they suck at using appropriate termonology and failed to make up a new word when one already existed that was close? Or they meant to add other text and change the text that we have been quoting but forgot. But, hit dice come with skill points and they can be placed into skills. Many creatures actually treat all skills as cross-classed skills (in that two points gives one rank) which I find really confusing and contradictory. I would guess that overall more than 50% of the creatures in the monstrous manual are actually not done properly but since the difference between 'craft +3' and 'craft +6' is typically lost in the shuffle for guys you just want to kill anyway no one cares :( So, hd give a bunch of things which includes skill points and a set of skills which might be allowable for the 1:1 conversion, but the hd still dont count as character levels. So at this point I am undecided and would place this squarely in the realm of DM fiat. Everything is DM fiat though. At this point there is a lot against them being equivalent to character levels and precious little for them to count. I think the problem can be fixed by getting rid of the leadership feat and defining explicitly that racial hd and class levels count for prereqs just the same ;) But then, I dont care for the leadership feat as written so....
Racinante 07-02-07, 03:36 PM	None of the ones that you have provided so far state that monster hd counts as character levels. Hence the use of circumstantial and imply. (the following might sound harsh, I don't mean it to be, but I am not sure how to change it to not sound as such.. just brainstorming for possible reasons) Not (generally) a problem Being class skills means that when you add real classes later on the maximum ranks you can have is different for class and cross-class skills. No. Having a class skill requires that you have a class, be a member of a class, or to formerly belong to a class. also note Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3 Which more than implies that if you have a class skill, then you also have a character level. So, hd give a bunch of things which includes skill points and a set of skills which might be allowable for the 1:1 conversion, but the hd still dont count as character levels. HD do not provide a set of skills. If a monster's race is not considered a class, then all skills should be cross-classed until the monster picks up a class. Everything is DM fiat though. From a game standpoint, yes. Not from a rules standpoint. At this point there is a lot against them being equivalent to character levels and precious little for them to count. I disagree. From what I see, the opposite is true. I think the problem can be fixed by getting rid of the leadership feat ...But then, I dont care for the leadership feat as written so.... I do like the leadership feat but have not actually put it into play. When and if I do, my opinion could change. ...and defining explicitly that racial hd and class levels count for prereqs just the same ;) Not an option we have in any official capacity, unfortunately, but I do agree.
Scion of Coldshard 07-02-07, 03:57 PM	Having a class skill requires that you have a class, be a member of a class, or to formerly belong to a class. Apparently that is not the case ;) Which more than implies that if you have a class skill, then you also have a character level. Unfortunately I believe that we are talking about different books with different word useages. The monstrous manual, and the improving monsters section in the SRD, would have to define how the words change meaning and what they are for. In this case we get a bunch of 'effectivelys' and phrases in quotes instead of saying that they are actually the same. Although, that would explain why so many monsters spend skill points as though all skills take 2 points to get..hmm... HD do not provide a set of skills. Monsters hd do. The hd say how many skill points they get and a specific monster with its hd tell you, supposedly, which skills are class skills for them. From a game standpoint, yes. Not from a rules standpoint. Effectively. Once you toss a DM in they are free to change the game and rules however they like. Of course, I am much more interested in RAW personally while on these boards ;) I disagree. From what I see, the opposite is true. There are a bunch of effectivelys and things in quotes and the only potential support for the other direction is taking things basically out of context from a seperate book! I do like the leadership feat but have not actually put it into play. When and if I do, my opinion could change. Costs a feat to get another creature with power up to almost equivalent to another pc. It takes a lot of time and it adds a lot of variables which I dont much care for. I dont mind Wild cohort though, it isnt nearly as open ended as leadership however. Not an option we have in any official capacity, unfortunately, but I do agree. Maybe someone important reads the psionic boards... They probably just laugh at us though :(
Racinante 07-02-07, 04:19 PM	Unfortunately I believe that we are talking about different books with different word usages. I'm exclusively using the SRD at this point as I do not have access to the books. The monstrous manual, and the improving monsters section in the SRD, would have to define how the words change meaning and what they are for. But in using the RAW, there should be no change in the meanings of words between rule sets. In this case we get a bunch of 'effectivelys' and phrases in quotes instead of saying that they are actually the same. Although, that would explain why so many monsters spend skill points as though all skills take 2 points to get..hmm... However there are no "effectivelies" or quotes when maximum class skill ranks are defined as character level +3 and then monsters are given class skills. Monsters hd do. The hd say how many skill points they get and a specific monster with its hd tell you, supposedly, which skills are class skills for them. No, I believe you are confusing monster with HD. The HD grants skill ranks, the monster defines the class skills. If the HD of the monster increases, it gains no additional class skills but does gain additional skill points to allocate. Of course, I am much more interested in RAW personally while on these boards ;) Ditto. is taking things basically out of context from a separate book! What context, what separate book? Costs a feat to get another creature with power up to almost equivalent to another pc. It takes a lot of time and it adds a lot of variables which I don't much care for. I understand and can sympathize. I dont mind Wild cohort though, it isnt nearly as open ended as leadership however. Source? I didn't see it in the consolidated feats list. [edit]Nevermind, I found it at the wizards main site. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) Not terribly interesting unless you want an animal as a cohort.
Scion of Coldshard 07-02-07, 04:24 PM	I'm exclusively using the SRD at this point as I do not have access to the books. But that is where all of the text came from. The PHB assumes you are using a character with classes and such, the monstrous manual is the place where the wording should be clarified for cross purpose use. Using text derived from one to support a conclusion that was outside of its purview is dangerous ground ;/ But in using the RAW, there should be no change in the meanings of words between rule sets. The different books are working under different assumptions however. Plus, in a perfect RAW you wouldnt have all of the assumptions of spells and items using medium size as a basis and ignoring the possibility of being, say, small sized.. let alone some other size ;/ No, I believe you are confusing monster with HD. The HD grants skill ranks, the monster defines the class skills. A specific monster and its specific monster hd and such gives what skills it has that count as 'class skills' under certain circumstances. What context, what separate book? PHB vs Monstrous Manual in this case. Source? I didn't see it in the consolidated feats list. Great feat, surprised you havent heard about it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a