Psion PrCs [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Psion PrCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dman11235
11-17-07, 08:34 AM Okay, I'm making a psion (for the first time), and have my character concept pretty much down, but I was wondering if there were any easily accessible sources for more prestige classes. I have the XPH (obviously) and the CPsi, and the Mind's Eye (obviously). Are there any other's that I could get my hands on? Web supplements and other online accessible things would be much preferred. It's sort of disappointing that I'm only doing psion 14/anarchic initiate 1/arch psion 5 right now.

I guess this would also be the place to ask if anyone has updated the Arch Psion to 3.5 or if I'd have to do it. It's still a ways off (level 7 now), so no rush on that.
InkBlot
11-17-07, 11:18 AM There's a reason that the sticky threads are sticky. This list of psionic PrCs was in the Master Index. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10507404&postcount=106)
The_Shaman
11-17-07, 11:42 AM It seems like 80% of psion PrC lose a manifester level at lvl 1. Even if they lose only 1 ML, it's the first... It's incredibly annoying for a psion imo.
InkBlot
11-17-07, 12:56 PM It's balanced. The best psion has 20 levels of psion. The best wizard has 5 levels of wizard, and 15 levels of prestige classes that get all sorts of great special abilities without ever losing a caster level.

At least, that's how it was until Complete Psionic. Now the best psion has 10 levels of psion and 10 levels of anarchic initiate.
The_Shaman
11-17-07, 01:52 PM The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.
Jaid
11-17-07, 02:11 PM The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.

yes, well the problem with that is, anyone who cares about how powerful their wizard is at all is not going to take the PrCs that actually cost something to get into (ie involve sacrificing a caster level) because there are so many ridiculously powerful PrCs that don't require any significant sacrifice whatsoever for a wizard to get into.

the psion PrCs lose a caster level at first most of the time for a few reasons:

1) that's when the 'signature ability' of the PrC should first become available, generally speaking. if you can't herd any thralls, then you aren't exactly a thrallherd, are you? in any case, this typically results in an increase in power (in one specific area, that which the PrC specialises in to be specific)... which means an equivalent decrease in power in other areas is needed. prestige classes are not supposed to be the same class as the base class but more powerful, it's supposed to be more specialised.

2) it means that there is much less temptation to do a 1-level dip. anyone who is a psion uncarnate starts paying for their cool abilities immediately, and as such when someone takes 1 level in psion uncarnate, it is usually with the intention of taking all of the remaining levels.

in short, those caster PrCs are brokenly overpowered, they cost nothing significant and don't provide a meaningful loss of generalist ability in exchange for the specialising that goes on. the problem is not the psionic PrCs, it's the caster ones.
PhaedrusXY
11-17-07, 02:39 PM The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.That's generally a problem with the wizard PrCs, not the Psion ones.
CrimsonDeath
11-17-07, 03:29 PM The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.

Elocater doesn't lose a caster level until level 2.

But then, it's generally not worth taking unless you go at least four levels, and seven is probably the best exit point if you don't want all ten levels.
dman11235
11-17-07, 05:53 PM There's a reason that the sticky threads are sticky. This list of psionic PrCs was in the Master Index. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10507404&postcount=106)

Am I blind? I don't see that in the master index. I did make sure to look first.

EDIT: Never mind. I found it. It wasn't directly there, it was in another thread.
Bacris
11-17-07, 06:18 PM Chalk me up as someone who prefers that caster / manifester PrCs lose a level of progression at the 1st level of the class - unless the first level of the PrC has some other sort of cost associated with it. The Archmage, for example, I can see not losing a level.

It's not a fault of psionics - it's a fault of the base classes that leave no reason to stay in the base class. The base class should be a strongly viable option, it shouldn't be sub-optimal to stay wizard 20. Boring? Maybe, but it should still be a viable option. :)
Ryuu_Tenshi
11-17-07, 08:05 PM Chalk me up as someone who prefers that caster / manifester PrCs lose a level of progression at the 1st level of the class - unless the first level of the PrC has some other sort of cost associated with it. The Archmage, for example, I can see not losing a level.

It's not a fault of psionics - it's a fault of the base classes that leave no reason to stay in the base class. The base class should be a strongly viable option, it shouldn't be sub-optimal to stay wizard 20. Boring? Maybe, but it should still be a viable option. :)

Heh, that's interesting... I just realized that while I consider it boring to stay in one class in a LOT of core classes, Psion is probably one of the ones where I find it entirely non-boring to be Psion 20. I usually only take psion PrC's when I want to do something very specific. For instance, Astral Zealot.

(That said, uh, if you're looking for psionic PrCs, I gotta say that AZ is great. It requires a bit of Using Your Brain as it isn't the most clearly written thing ever but it's loads of fun. Especially if you're an anime junkie.)
dman11235
11-17-07, 08:12 PM Well, unfortunately I have no access to Hyperconscience, so that's out. It looks as if I'm doing psion 10+/anarchic initiate 1+/possibly arch psion (If I can get my DM to a: alow and b: help update it)
The_Shaman
11-18-07, 06:42 AM Actually, many wizard PrCs that lose casting levels lose them when they get a powerful ability. This is how I prefer PrCs to be - you pay when you get something good, not in advance (once with the PrC level and once in meeting the prerequisites.)
Jaid
11-18-07, 01:35 PM Actually, many wizard PrCs that lose casting levels lose them when they get a powerful ability. This is how I prefer PrCs to be - you pay when you get something good, not in advance (once with the PrC level and once in meeting the prerequisites.)

if you're not getting anything at the first level of the PrC, then i have to ask... what's the bloody point of the first level of the PrC if it isn't giving you anything that has to do with what that PrC does? you may as well just make the requirements such that you need 1 more level of a base class, because if you don't start looking any different from a standard wizard at level 1 of the prestige class, then the prestige class isn't properly built. when i become a wizard of thay, i'd bloody well better be an actual wizard of thay when i take the *first* level of the prestige class, because that's what the whole bloody point of me taking a level in the prestige class *is*.

thusly, if you're not gaining a reasonably powerful ability relating to the prestige class at first, then that is just flawed prestige class design as well, and still doesn't do anything to convince me that the arcane prestige classes are doing it right... though at least the ones that actually do cost you a manifester level are *closer* to being right than the other ones.

(note: when i talk about getting the ability at first level that starts to define you as a member of that prestige class, i mean the signature ability, not the capstone ability... the dragon disciple does not and should not turn you into a half-dragon equivalent in it's first level, but it's signature ability of making you more like a dragon should. the thrallherd's second thrall shouldn't come at first level, but it makes a lot of sense for them to get their first thrall and their believers right at the beginning, because that is their signature ability)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dman11235 11-17-07, 08:34 AM	Okay, I'm making a psion (for the first time), and have my character concept pretty much down, but I was wondering if there were any easily accessible sources for more prestige classes. I have the XPH (obviously) and the CPsi, and the Mind's Eye (obviously). Are there any other's that I could get my hands on? Web supplements and other online accessible things would be much preferred. It's sort of disappointing that I'm only doing psion 14/anarchic initiate 1/arch psion 5 right now. I guess this would also be the place to ask if anyone has updated the Arch Psion to 3.5 or if I'd have to do it. It's still a ways off (level 7 now), so no rush on that.
InkBlot 11-17-07, 11:18 AM	There's a reason that the sticky threads are sticky. This list of psionic PrCs was in the Master Index. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10507404&postcount=106)
The_Shaman 11-17-07, 11:42 AM	It seems like 80% of psion PrC lose a manifester level at lvl 1. Even if they lose only 1 ML, it's the first... It's incredibly annoying for a psion imo.
InkBlot 11-17-07, 12:56 PM	It's balanced. The best psion has 20 levels of psion. The best wizard has 5 levels of wizard, and 15 levels of prestige classes that get all sorts of great special abilities without ever losing a caster level. At least, that's how it was until Complete Psionic. Now the best psion has 10 levels of psion and 10 levels of anarchic initiate.
The_Shaman 11-17-07, 01:52 PM	The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.
Jaid 11-17-07, 02:11 PM	The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones. yes, well the problem with that is, anyone who cares about how powerful their wizard is at all is not going to take the PrCs that actually cost something to get into (ie involve sacrificing a caster level) because there are so many ridiculously powerful PrCs that don't require any significant sacrifice whatsoever for a wizard to get into. the psion PrCs lose a caster level at first most of the time for a few reasons: 1) that's when the 'signature ability' of the PrC should first become available, generally speaking. if you can't herd any thralls, then you aren't exactly a thrallherd, are you? in any case, this typically results in an increase in power (in one specific area, that which the PrC specialises in to be specific)... which means an equivalent decrease in power in other areas is needed. prestige classes are not supposed to be the same class as the base class but more powerful, it's supposed to be more specialised. 2) it means that there is much less temptation to do a 1-level dip. anyone who is a psion uncarnate starts paying for their cool abilities immediately, and as such when someone takes 1 level in psion uncarnate, it is usually with the intention of taking all of the remaining levels. in short, those caster PrCs are brokenly overpowered, they cost nothing significant and don't provide a meaningful loss of generalist ability in exchange for the specialising that goes on. the problem is not the psionic PrCs, it's the caster ones.
PhaedrusXY 11-17-07, 02:39 PM	The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones.That's generally a problem with the wizard PrCs, not the Psion ones.
CrimsonDeath 11-17-07, 03:29 PM	The thing is, there are many wizard PrCs that lose caster level, but not all of them lose it at lvl 1. Psion PrCs seem to follow this trend almost without exception - especially the Mind's eye ones. Elocater doesn't lose a caster level until level 2. But then, it's generally not worth taking unless you go at least four levels, and seven is probably the best exit point if you don't want all ten levels.
dman11235 11-17-07, 05:53 PM	There's a reason that the sticky threads are sticky. This list of psionic PrCs was in the Master Index. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10507404&postcount=106) Am I blind? I don't see that in the master index. I did make sure to look first. EDIT: Never mind. I found it. It wasn't directly there, it was in another thread.
Bacris 11-17-07, 06:18 PM	Chalk me up as someone who prefers that caster / manifester PrCs lose a level of progression at the 1st level of the class - unless the first level of the PrC has some other sort of cost associated with it. The Archmage, for example, I can see not losing a level. It's not a fault of psionics - it's a fault of the base classes that leave no reason to stay in the base class. The base class should be a strongly viable option, it shouldn't be sub-optimal to stay wizard 20. Boring? Maybe, but it should still be a viable option. :)
Ryuu_Tenshi 11-17-07, 08:05 PM	Chalk me up as someone who prefers that caster / manifester PrCs lose a level of progression at the 1st level of the class - unless the first level of the PrC has some other sort of cost associated with it. The Archmage, for example, I can see not losing a level. It's not a fault of psionics - it's a fault of the base classes that leave no reason to stay in the base class. The base class should be a strongly viable option, it shouldn't be sub-optimal to stay wizard 20. Boring? Maybe, but it should still be a viable option. :) Heh, that's interesting... I just realized that while I consider it boring to stay in one class in a LOT of core classes, Psion is probably one of the ones where I find it entirely non-boring to be Psion 20. I usually only take psion PrC's when I want to do something very specific. For instance, Astral Zealot. (That said, uh, if you're looking for psionic PrCs, I gotta say that AZ is great. It requires a bit of Using Your Brain as it isn't the most clearly written thing ever but it's loads of fun. Especially if you're an anime junkie.)
dman11235 11-17-07, 08:12 PM	Well, unfortunately I have no access to Hyperconscience, so that's out. It looks as if I'm doing psion 10+/anarchic initiate 1+/possibly arch psion (If I can get my DM to a: alow and b: help update it)
The_Shaman 11-18-07, 06:42 AM	Actually, many wizard PrCs that lose casting levels lose them when they get a powerful ability. This is how I prefer PrCs to be - you pay when you get something good, not in advance (once with the PrC level and once in meeting the prerequisites.)
Jaid 11-18-07, 01:35 PM	Actually, many wizard PrCs that lose casting levels lose them when they get a powerful ability. This is how I prefer PrCs to be - you pay when you get something good, not in advance (once with the PrC level and once in meeting the prerequisites.) if you're not getting anything at the first level of the PrC, then i have to ask... what's the bloody point of the first level of the PrC if it isn't giving you anything that has to do with what that PrC does? you may as well just make the requirements such that you need 1 more level of a base class, because if you don't start looking any different from a standard wizard at level 1 of the prestige class, then the prestige class isn't properly built. when i become a wizard of thay, i'd bloody well better be an actual wizard of thay when i take the first level of the prestige class, because that's what the whole bloody point of me taking a level in the prestige class is. thusly, if you're not gaining a reasonably powerful ability relating to the prestige class at first, then that is just flawed prestige class design as well, and still doesn't do anything to convince me that the arcane prestige classes are doing it right... though at least the ones that actually do cost you a manifester level are closer to being right than the other ones. (note: when i talk about getting the ability at first level that starts to define you as a member of that prestige class, i mean the signature ability, not the capstone ability... the dragon disciple does not and should not turn you into a half-dragon equivalent in it's first level, but it's signature ability of making you more like a dragon should. the thrallherd's second thrall shouldn't come at first level, but it makes a lot of sense for them to get their first thrall and their believers right at the beginning, because that is their signature ability)