Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodyChariot 06-13-07, 11:08 AM	What are your opinions on taking one or two levels of another base class to supplement the psion? For example, monk to increase saves, or psychic warrior to gain armor and shield proficiencies. I can see this being useful in a party that has very few people (like two or three). In large parties, I think it'd be better to just stick to keeping up manifester levels.
Bacris 06-13-07, 11:16 AM	Very rarely is it worth it - the loss in manifester level is a tremendous hit to a psion. In a game with few people, you're better off playing Gestalt.
Batshido 06-13-07, 11:22 AM	Pretty much the only time this is going to be worth it is going to be when you get a sizeable upgrade to your abilities from one or two levels. Something like an Egoist grabbing a level of Monk for Improved Grapple, increased hit points, and Asetic Psion for a bump in AC. Or a Wilder gish taking 2 levels of Paladin for Divine Grace, Heavy Armor, Weapon Proficiency, better hit points and Smite Evil. Outside of that kind of return, it's really not worth it.
RobbyPants 06-13-07, 11:41 AM	For example, monk to increase saves, In this example, I'd say no. The +2 on all saves is nice, but I don't think it's worth a manifester level. Also, the Wis bonus to AC seems attractive (as psions aren't proficient in armor), but that's yet another ability you have to keep high to make the character useful. This would make for more of a MAD psion. or psychic warrior to gain armor and shield proficiencies. One thing to remember: the penalty for nonproficiency with armor is that you take the amror check penalty as a penalty to your attack rolls. So, basiclly, if you can get some armor with an ACP of 0, you take a -0 penalty on your attacks! At low levels you can wear padded or leather armor to boost your AC for no penalty. When you can afford masterwork studded leather, it will jump up again. The best you can pull off is a mithril shirt. This is the equivalent of Inertial Armor (+4 AC) for no PP cost or spent action. Also, mithirl bucklers and shields can also be used with no penalty. So, the long and the short of it, a creative psion doesn't really need to worry about armor profiencency. And even if you want some fullplate, by the time you'll be wearing it, you should be making so few attack rolls that it won't really matter. I can see this being useful in a party that has very few people (like two or three). In large parties, I think it'd be better to just stick to keeping up manifester levels. Well, just to reiterate, you'll probably want to stick with boosting your manifester level. This will be your biggest gain.
BloodyChariot 06-13-07, 12:17 PM	Thanks for your replies! I was thinking of taking a level in Ardent because with the freedom mantle and the light and darkness mantle, I can end up moving at normal speed with heavy armor and darkvision. Given what you all have said, I definately agree and I don't really think it's worth it.
hovnarr 06-13-07, 03:24 PM	To expand on what RobbyPants said, I get the following gear for my psions A.S.A.P. - they are well within the range of 2nd level wealth per level recommendations: MW studded leather armor: +3 to AC, no ACP (about 200 gp) MW darkwood heavy shield: +2 to AC, no ACP (about 300 gp) Burnt out Ioun Stone (25 gp) with Continual Light cast on it (110 gp) Focus Crystal (50 gp): A MW tool for Concentration (+2 bonus), that helps you concentrate (as per the MW tools rules in the PHB) Riding Dog (150 gp): As powerful as a level 1 fighter I also take Psicrystal Affinity (immensly useful for all sorts of utility and even offense) + Psionic Body + another psionic feat for 10 hp + Con mod. at level 1. With all this, there's really no need to multiclass for added benefits at low levels. And it's always something you regret at mid-high levels anyway.
CrimsonDeath 06-13-07, 04:21 PM	Asetic Psion Do what, now?
Batshido 06-13-07, 04:33 PM	Do what, now? It's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona (great book if you like Psionic Monks) that requires Monk levels, but lets you add your Int modifier to your AC, and lets you regain Psionic Focus as a Standard Action.
carnivore 06-13-07, 04:34 PM	i Disagree: example: Monk 1/ Psion 19 Feats: Monastic Training(Psion)...Bonus Tashalatora(Psion) Carmondine Monk now you have everything based on INTELLIGENCE: Monk Abilities: Unarmed Damage as 20th lvl Monk Greater Flurry AC as 20th lvl Monk Psionics as 19th lvl Psion you lose very little if you do it right...and gain a lot(more skills, better saves...etc) Ascetic Psion .... requires Narrow Mind....and is weaker than Carmondine Monk and you still have a lot of feats left:P :D
Batshido 06-13-07, 04:39 PM	i Disagree: Feats: Carmondine Monk Where?
Knight0 06-13-07, 04:39 PM	carnivore what book are those feats in?
Batshido 06-13-07, 04:41 PM	carnivore what book are those feats in? Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona. Monastic Training: Eberron Campaign Setting. I don't know where Carmandine Monk is from.
ShaRd2000 06-13-07, 05:22 PM	Carmendine Monk is on page 28 of the Champions of Valor FR book. You have to be part of some order to get it, but you could easily put it into any world me thinks.
Yadot 06-13-07, 05:27 PM	What is the difference between Carmendine Monk and Ascetic Psion?
CrimsonDeath 06-13-07, 08:08 PM	i Disagree: example: Monk 1/ Psion 19 Feats: Monastic Training(Psion)...Bonus Tashalatora(Psion) Carmondine Monk now you have everything based on INTELLIGENCE: Monk Abilities: Unarmed Damage as 20th lvl Monk Greater Flurry AC as 20th lvl Monk Psionics as 19th lvl Psion you lose very little if you do it right...and gain a lot(more skills, better saves...etc) Ascetic Psion .... requires Narrow Mind....and is weaker than Carmondine Monk and you still have a lot of feats left:P :D Note that your base attack bonus is +9, though. Your unarmed damage and flurry won't be doing you very much good... Maybe the idea would work better with an Ardent? That way you don't even need Carmendine Monk.
Batshido 06-13-07, 09:46 PM	Note that your base attack bonus is +9, though. Your unarmed damage and flurry won't be doing you very much good... Maybe the idea would work better with an Ardent? That way you don't even need Carmendine Monk. My favorite Build so far is Monk 2/Ardent 2/Ranger 1/Slayer 10/Ardent +X. With Practiced Manifester you get access to 9th level powers at the same time you normally would, everything is will based, Fulll Flurry potential with Talashatora, and a final BAB of +16.
ShaRd2000 06-13-07, 10:18 PM	I thought practiced manifester just allowed you to spend more points augmenting (and some argue more PP) your current powers, not give you the extra powers 4 levels would get you.
Batshido 06-13-07, 10:22 PM	I thought practiced manifester just allowed you to spend more points augmenting (and some argue more PP) your current powers, not give you the extra powers 4 levels would get you. The Ardent is special. You get to pick your powers known based on your effective manifester level for the Ardent Class, not your effective class level. It's a fine distinction, but it can be used to great effect in something like this.
Bacris 06-13-07, 10:40 PM	Yup. The ardent's powers known are only based on class level at 1st level, when you may only select 1st level powers. Every level thereafter, it's based on manifester level, not ardent class level. No other class has wording like that, implying it was chosen specifically, since all other classes have clear progression charts and the Ardent does not.
ShaRd2000 06-13-07, 11:25 PM	Ok, to be honest, I skipped over the new core classes pretty belligerently when I first made the mistake of getting Complete Psi, and was bitter enough to stash it in disgust after I saw the "new" powers. So as you have mentioned, the mantles that they choose offer their own progression, that stems solely from the max amount of PP you can spend on the power's associated power level? IE: can't use the 8th level power of the mantle until your manifester level is 15, because you need to spend 15 points to manifest it? So as you were saying, you could have an 11th level manifester, and 15 HD, then just get that feat and be able to manifest the power in the mantle, because you can spend 15 PP on it now?
ShaRd2000 06-13-07, 11:28 PM	Also, how would the ardent react to the expanded knowledge feat? If they picked a mantle with a 9th level power in it, could they use the feat to get an 8th level power at level 3? Since they already know the powers in their mantle list, they just can't manifest them yet?
BloodyChariot 06-14-07, 12:51 AM	<...>So as you have mentioned, the mantles that they choose offer their own progression, that stems solely from the max amount of PP you can spend on the power's associated power level? As who mentioned? Nobody said anything about that. Where the heck did you get that from? And no, that's absolutely wrong. Practiced Manifester is a feat that "makes up" for manifester levels lost through multiclassing. It increases just your manifester level, nothing else. The ardent's wording makes it so that you can do something like this: Ardent 1 (taking practiced manifester) / Ranger 4 / Ardent 1 And when you level up in ardent at CL 6, you can choose one third level power. Yageddit? Also, how would the ardent react to the expanded knowledge feat? If they picked a mantle with a 9th level power in it, could they use the feat to get an 8th level power at level 3? Since they already know the powers in their mantle list, they just can't manifest them yet? Ardents can take expanded knowledge as normal. My previous response negates your main question. They don't automatically know every power in the lists. If you look to the right of Table 1-2: The Ardent, you'll see a column labeled as Powers Known, not You get all, baby!.
ShaRd2000 06-14-07, 01:28 AM	I got it now. I missed the "she must be able to manifest the power she wishes to learn" line, and somehow, the powers known. Thanks :P
Orchomenos 06-14-07, 08:37 AM	Recently built a 10th level character, and I wanted to try a psion. I initially wanted to take one level of Psychic Warrior for the armor and shield proficiency. This dude with a Full Plate and Heavy Shield had a lower AC than a full psion using his additional Power Points to augment Inertial Armor and Force Screen, and the psion is running faster. While the general rule for a spellcaster is to not loose more than 1 or 2 Caster Levels from ECL or level dips, I would say a psion can't loose one at all. Unless he is getting a large bunch of goodies in return...
The_Shaman 06-14-07, 08:57 AM	I suppose it doesn't matter if only power is concerned, but if the group doesn't have a rogue a psion could sacrifice a level or two.
carnivore 06-14-07, 09:16 AM	What is the difference between Carmendine Monk and Ascetic Psion? Feats from Secrets of Sarlona: Ascetic Psion...............req:Narrow Mind....allows you to freely multiclass with Psion and Monk, also use Int to AC instead of Wis, and lets you re-Focus as a Standard action, as well as progresses unarmed Damage feats from Champions of Valor: Carmondine Monk.........req:Int 13, member of special organization(which allows you to freely multiclass with Cleric and Monk) gives: Int to AC and the DC for Stunning fist and Quivering Palm are based on Int instead of Wis, also +2 monk lvls for one of the following(each day you pick one): 1)Unarmed Damage 2)Speed 3)AC Note that your base attack bonus is +9, though. Your unarmed damage and flurry won't be doing you very much good... Maybe the idea would work better with an Ardent? That way you don't even need Carmendine Monk.depending on the powers you are allowed to use: exa: Minds Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e) Combat Transformation Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 6, psychic warrior 6 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 11 You become a fighting machine -- stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can't manifest powers, even from psionic items (and you cannot cast spells, even from magic items). You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks). You lose any ability to manifest powers, including your ability to use command thought, use-activated, or power trigger psionic items, just as if the powers were not on your class list. You likewise lose the ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items. Augment: If you spend 4 additional power points, the natural armor bonus increases by +1 and the competence bonus on Fortitude saves increases by +2. with this power you get a lot of attacks....but if you did this: Monk 2/ Psion 4/ Anarchic Initiate 4/ Slayer 10 BAB+16...4 attacks...+Greater flurry apply Tashalatora to Slayer.... :D
Ogg 06-14-07, 10:59 AM	Yeah, you can feel the pain from multiclassing anything. If you multi-class a rogue, you feel the pain on your skill points. Multi-class a fighter, you feel the hit on your bonus feats & qualifying for weapon specialization (since it's based on your level fighter). But you can take feats to make up for this. I love the variability of my psion (kineticist)/wizard/cerebremancer. I had to take practiced manifester (complete psion) & practiced spellcaster (complete arcane) as well as overchannel (and talented) to make up for quite a bit of it but with those I'm very comfortable & feeling a lot less frustration then some of the pure casters (the sorceress curses constructs for instance).
DrowBattlemind 06-14-07, 02:03 PM	Well, I used to play a Psychic Warrior. I personally would have kept him strictly PW, but our next DM (we alternate) told us we pretty much HAD to prestige class. So, I prestiged into Elocator. While I would have preferred to remain straight PW, the Scorn Earth and Opportunistic Strike class features actually ended up saving our bacon once or twice. The irony being, said DM started a new campaign when he took over, and had us make whole new characters. :rolleyes:
Fafnir 06-14-07, 02:12 PM	Feats: Monastic Training(Psion)...Bonus Tashalatora(Psion) Carmondine Monk It does work, but the simple fact of having to cross over settings makes me gag.:P I'd rather go with Kung-fu Genius, thank you.
Mesiolan 06-14-07, 02:29 PM	I'm playing a Kinetic 3/Cleric 3/Psychic Theurge 3 right now. Of course, both classes are "Practiced". It goes very well with Overchannel (I'll heal myself later) and Privileged Energy. So my Energy Cone or Energy Missiles do up to 11d6+22 fire damage (DC 22 for half, CL 11 for SR or PR). Not bad for a fullplated healer, eh? This build should be even better with Ardent (less MAD), but it limits the PC to a meager 3 mantles 'till 18th level. Next PC I'll do a straight psion (egoist or shaper).
carnivore 06-14-07, 03:46 PM	It does work, but the simple fact of having to cross over settings makes me gag.:P I'd rather go with Kung-fu Genius, thank you. Ascetic Psion is Official WotC.... Kung Fu Genius is Dragon Magazine....and Ascetic Psion does more than Kung Fu Genius, but has higher cost(+1 Feat) :D
Fafnir 06-14-07, 05:23 PM	Ascetic Psion is Official WotC.... Kung Fu Genius is Dragon Magazine....and Ascetic Psion does more than Kung Fu Genius, but has higher cost(+1 Feat) :D Technically, Dragon and Dungeon are official WotC, or rather where. Anyway, I wanted it to replace Carmendine Monk, not Ascetic Psion, as I abhor FR.:embarrass
carnivore 06-15-07, 12:07 PM	that was the point..... dont use Carmondine Monk if you dont like Forgotten realms...use Ascetic Psion instead..:cool: :D
The_Shaman 06-15-07, 03:47 PM	So what's the problem to, you know, adapt something? If it works in the FR, it can work elsewhere.