Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lyric 02-20-08, 01:56 PM	Ok, I'm reviewing the Psion Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) and wondering if there are ways to tweak things a little bit. For example, would it be possible to craft a psionic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm) like a skin that an uncarnate could wear while incorporeal granting him touch but basically acting as a shell? Lasting until removed of course, providing both sensory perception (touch) and the ability to move things (a str score perhaps equal to his wisdom or intelligence score? or half of it?) Perhaps allowing him to expend power points in order to obtain greater lvls of physical strength? Could he still retain his disguise ability through it? (Can skins have more than one power?) Also, what happens to existing Psionic Tatoo (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingPsionic Tattoos)'s? Would they still function? And could additional ones be added after tenth lvl when the character has reached Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm#uncarnate) status? Thoughts? Anyone know of any other items that would be handy for a character that is insubstantial?
jbsaff 02-20-08, 02:15 PM	Would the Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) work?
Fatalis_902 02-20-08, 02:38 PM	Skin of the Proteus is one of the most oft-suggested items for Uncarnates, and for good reason. Auto-Metamorphosis allows you to assume your own corporeal form, complete with your normal ablity scores. So, yes, to answer the question, a Skin of the Proteus would work. Very, very well.
CryoSilver 02-20-08, 02:39 PM	The Ghostly Grasp feat (Libris Mortis) lets incorporeal creatures use material items normally.
Lyric 02-20-08, 05:10 PM	Would the Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) work? hmmm... even so, that wouldn't leave me invulnerable inside the suit, which is kinda the point.. gain the benefits of non-corporeality and minimize the drawbacks :) you're thinking though, I like that. :) keep the ideas coming. :)
Tedronai 02-20-08, 06:38 PM	Your Telekinetic Force class ability (at a ML of you character level, too!) will allow you to 'lift' almost any object you would ever need to, as well as to manipulate it, and you'll also likely be more adept at breaking items using the Sudden Force application of this power than the Raging Barbarian doing his thing. The confounding issues surrounding your unique form of incorporeality mean that you wouldn't even have to have a magic item to create the 'shell' you're looking for. Just find something that covers you sufficiently (Mountain Plate works well enough for this purpose, and even comes with mechanics), and put it on while you're corporeal, then return to incorporeality, neglecting to designate the item for Assume Equipment. (not that I actually advise this tactic, as it will prevent you from making full use of your incorporeality by barring you from entering objects...) As for equipment that you'll want to seek out, anything that performs multiple functions is your friend. You have a limited number of potential items you can Assume (and thus take with you), so don't waste time on those tattoos. Get a bag of Holding or a Handy Haversack, you'll need it to carry everything you own that you can't assume. You might want to get a Ghost Touch weapon, or you might not, depending on your style. You'll DEFINITELY want to pick up a Belt of Magnificence if you get the chance. +6 if you can afford it, less if you're short on cash (in which case consider getting a +6 item in your primary manifesting stat as well) You'll want a Vest of Resistance, Ring of Protection, but not Amulet of Natural Armour (the bonus of which doesn't apply while incorporeal) A Torc of Power Preservation can be very useful, equating to a few extra manifestations each day, or a few extra points of augmentation on a critically important manifestation. Depending on your Discipline, a Psionatrix might be extremely helpful or nearly useless. If you can convince your DM to allow it, a Psionic version of a Runestaff would greatly improve your versatility (I suggest using it for those powers you won't use often enough to justi.fy a power slot, but useful enough to have a few times in a day) Similarly, the equivalent of a Ring of Arcane Might would be almost as helpful as the Torc (and sometimes more helpful)
DracoPhoenix 02-21-08, 09:11 AM	I think I recommend Skin of the Proteus every time someone asks about Uncarnate (So, that might be why it seems the most suggested :P) I also suggest assuming a Handy haversack to carry everything (including the SoP when you want to be incorporeal). spending pp for gtr str, consider : You have TKF at will, for most object interaction. (Targeting armour / clothing and lifting a few feet of the ground is a cheap hold person btw) TK Manoeuvre available for grapple etc. Better than physically grappling too - higher "str" modifier. Control Body is but a exp. know away. (Also good as "hold X") Pack a psi-crystal & solicit psi-crystal and you've got a lot going for you. I tend to think the "mental" side of psionics does the Uncarnate more in the long run - telepathy being a personal favourite (why fight when you need someone to do your ironing? It's the wizards that get prestidigitation :(). But then I tend to be happy with energy missiles for 90% of my energy damage needs.
Lyric 02-21-08, 07:15 PM	I'd forgotten that the TK effect was limitless while uncorporeal, that should handle a lot of what I was considering. I guess though, that the main thing I was going for, was to trick people into thinking I was 'still' corporeal. PC1: "What's Johnson taking so long for? He should have acquired more power by now, he's lagging behind." PC2: "He's working on some sorta PrC, though it doesn't seem to be giving him much. He says it gives him a bonus to his mental powers, I think he's mental." PC1: "Sheesh, what a looser." PC2: "Yeah, he's really lucky though, he hasn't died yet. We've had to replace several psions before him, I have no idea how he seems to avoid all those attacks, maybe his PrC makes him lucky?". After all, a player, or NPC comes accross someone and sees that physical hits don't work, that magic misses 50% of the time, and that the apponent seems to be insubtantial and can fly.. and they start switching to force powers. :P But, make them think you're still corporeal, fake injuries or fake healing, and they continue to attack in futile ways. (Kinda like strategy. :P Make your opponent attack your strong point, and ignore your weakness.) Would skin of proteous remove my incorporeal subtype benefits? If not, then perhaps it would be ideal.
Fatalis_902 02-21-08, 07:40 PM	Yes, as long as you are metamorphosed, you will lose your incoporeality. However, you can just take off the skin to regain your incorporeality, so it works out pretty well.
Lyric 02-21-08, 10:19 PM	I'm sure it has it's uses, but I kinda like the idea of keeping my incorporeality and faking being corporeal :P lol
Fatalis_902 02-21-08, 10:53 PM	I don't know if there's a way to help you with that, sorry. You could try using TKF on a suit of armor, prefferably full plate so you can't really be seen in it, and having it "walk" while you stay inside it. Of course, that would be clunky, and it would really chew up your actions in combat, so it's probably a bad idea. I honestly can't think of anything that will do what you want, so maybe you could try making something. Like say, a Skin of the Uncarnate, which allows you to appear corporeal while you are incorporeal, but still keeps your incorporeal benefits and penalties. I don't know what the price on that would be, but it's an idea.
The_Mess 02-21-08, 11:14 PM	Take the suit of armor idea. Put an astral construct in the armor. Directing it is a free action. Walk in the armor with the construct. You're incorporeal, after all! Pick your other powers carefully and you can even make it look like you're just physically attacking your foe! Of course, you must call yourself Alphonse Elric...
Slagger the Chuul 02-22-08, 03:06 AM	Isn't this all just a bit convoluted? Why not just wear the ectoplasmic skin or armour as assumed equipment and undesignate it when you want to touch something?
DracoPhoenix 02-22-08, 03:52 AM	Isn't this all just a bit convoluted? Why not just wear the ectoplasmic skin or armour as assumed equipment and undesignate it when you want to touch something? If you were after just yourself as corporeal, you'd do the same trick with skin of ectoplasmic armour (Comp Psi) - i.e. don't assume it, and put it in your HH when you wanted to be incorporeal. Due to wording, (un/)assuming items only changes when you change between the two states. This would be the cheaper option (3000g), I think one of the reasons for SoP over SoEA was you won't get full incorporeal until L15 - at which point the 84k for SoP is probably available.
Lyric 02-22-08, 10:10 AM	Take the suit of armor idea. Put an astral construct in the armor. Directing it is a free action. Walk in the armor with the construct. You're incorporeal, after all! Pick your other powers carefully and you can even make it look like you're just physically attacking your foe! Of course, you must call yourself Alphonse Elric... That may be what I'll need to do, I hope there's a way to cobble it together, but I suppose that would be between the GM and myself. :) I love the immunities inherent in the incorporeal form, but don't want to broadcast to the world what my subtype is so they will easily know how to attack me. I agree that TKF is a good way to confuse things, as is the fact that I'm a Psion (of sorts), and it's easier to hide my identity with the Uncarnate's disguise abilities... I just don't want every recurring villain to start stocking up on swords & arrows of ghost touch on the off chance that I pop by. :P This whole thing is more about deception rather than defense, but uses the deception as a defense. Of course, I shudder to imagine using a non-permanent, saving throw based telepathic power. yuck. :P lol. I much prefer a shell over my 'soul' so to speak. ;) But a shell that I'm not tied to. Perhaps I should make a new Power, and then craft an item with it. A variant of astral construct. To make it more useful, I suppose I could make it so that on me, it's just a shell that does nothing more both 'cloth' me in physicality, but for a few psp's more, and a dex save, it will let me cast a 'shell' over an incorporeal opponent and tie him to it. That way, everyone can tackle him, not just those with special weapons. (Basically, it would remove it's corporeal nature, think, a mix between ectoplasmic cocoon and polymorph other. :P kinda)
Lycanthromancer 02-22-08, 12:38 PM	This may be exactly what you need. From my powers revision: Animate Object (A) Psychokinesis [See text] Level: Kineticist 1 Display: Material Manifesting Time: A full round action Range: Medium (100 ft + 10 ft/lvl) Area: 20 ft radius burst, and 20 ft radius sphere (see text) Target: One or more unattended objects Duration: Concentration + 1 round/lvl Saving Throw: Will negates (object) Power Resistance: Yes (object) Power Points: 1 You imbue one or more inanimate objects with psychokinetic energy that you control; they move and can even attack as you direct. Corpses and live vegetation can be controlled, although plant creatures can not, and neither can already animated objects or undead creatures. The object moves like a puppet, with jerky and clumsy movements. If its form is rigid, it makes creaking, groaning, or grating sounds as you control it. Any object that is affixed to something larger, such as a plant that is rooted to the ground or a chandelier attached to a ceiling can not be moved from where it is unless the object succeeds at a Strength check (move action, average DC 20, subject to modification as appropriate), in which case it breaks away from its moorings and can move as normal. An animated object can attack an opponent if you direct it to do so. It deals slashing, piercing, and/or bludgeoning damage, as appropriate. Weapons do not use their base damage for attacks (instead, using the base damage for an animated object); they do, however, retain all of their mundane special qualities (bonuses to trip, and so on). While you are concentrating, the object uses your manifester level as its base attack bonus; once your concentration lapses, it utilizes its own base attack bonus, instead. If magical (or psionic), the item retains any qualities such as enhancement bonuses and special abilities it may have, and can apply those bonuses to its attack and damage rolls, (and to AC, for armors and shields). While you are concentrating, you can use this power on locks, wagons, mechanical traps, and so on in the power’s initial burst, making them move in such a way as to attempt to unlock or disable themselves. If another character is making a skill check involving a device you have animated, the character gains a bonus on the check equal to your key ability modifier (minimum +4); alternately, you can penalize a character for an identical amount. If you are attempting to make a skill check yourself, you can manipulate the object directly, with no need for tools (you also gain the bonus on such checks as noted above). You can animate up to 1 HD of objects in this manner; all objects must stay within a 20 ft radius sphere, and can not move more than that distance from each other at any point during the power’s duration (though they can attack outside of that area). The number of HD an object has is dependent upon its size, though it retains its original hit points and hardness. See pages 13 and 14 in the Monster Manual (as well as below) for the statistics for animated objects. Augment: 1. If you spend 2 additional power points, objects you animate gain the psionic subtype, and overcome DR/psionics, if the objects under your control are not psionic already. 2. For every 3 additional power points you spend, you can double the number of HD of objects you can animate. This doubling is cumulative, so that 1 becomes 2 becomes 4 becomes 8, and so on. The size and number of the objects you can animate increase accordingly. 3. If you spend 3 additional power points, you can use general feats and skill checks through an object you animate, if the object is physically capable of using the feat or making the skill check. You can do so only while concentrating on this power, and only through one object at a time (swarms count as one object for this purpose). You can change the focus-object once per round, as a free action. If combined with augment #1, this augment allows you to channel any psionic feat that requires the expenditure of your psionic focus, but you must expend your focus to use the feat, as normal. 4. If you spend 3 additional power points, the objects you control are treated as though affected by the elocator’s scorn earth class ability (see pg 143 in the Expanded Psionics Handbook for details) as well as the Up the Walls psionic feat while you concentrate on them (but only if they are able to move). This means that when the objects are within 1 ft of any flat surface, they have subjective gravity toward it, and can effectively float up walls, and so on. You can suppress or resume this function as a free action once per round. 5. If you spend 6 additional power points, this power’s target becomes “One object.” You can attempt to animate a single attended object of the appropriate size category. If the manifestation is successful, its wielder is entitled a Will save each round to negate the power until it lets go of the object; once negated, the power ends. For every 2 additional power points you spend (via one of these augmentations, or simply by spending additional power points), the radius of the area you control increases by 5 ft. Construct Swarm (Tiny) Tiny Construct (Swarm) Hit Dice: 32d10 (176 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares); 50 ft legs; 60 ft multiple legs; 80 ft wheels Armor Class: 14 (+3 Size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +24/- Attack: Swarm (5d6) Full Attack: Swarm (5d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft Special Attacks: Distraction (see page 13 of the Monster Manual) Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, swarm traits; also see pages 13 and 315 of the Monster Manual Saves: Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +5 Abilities: Str 8, Dex 14, Con --, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- Environment: Any Organization: Any Challenge Rating: 10 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: -- Level Adjustment: -- Animated Object, Diminutive Diminutive Construct Hit Dice: 1/4 d10 (2 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares); 50 ft legs; 60 ft multiple legs; 80 ft wheels Armor Class: 17 (+4 Size, +3 Dex), touch 17, flat footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-15 Attack: Slam +1 melee (1d2-1) Full Attack: Slam +1 melee (1d2-1) Space/Reach: 1 ft/0 ft Special Attacks: Distraction (see page 13 of the Monster Manual) Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision; also see page 13 of the Monster Manual Saves: Fort +0, Ref +3, Will -5 Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con--, Int--, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- Environment: Any Organization: Any Challenge Rating: 1/4 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: -- Level Adjustment: -- Construct Swarm (Diminutive) Diminutive Construct (Swarm) Hit Dice: 16d10 (165 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares); 50 ft legs; 60 ft multiple legs; 80 ft wheels Armor Class: 17 (+4 Size, +3 Dex), touch 17, flat footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +12/- Attack: Swarm (4d6) Full Attack: Swarm (4d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft Special Attacks: Distraction (see page 13 of the Monster Manual) Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, swarm traits; also see pages 13 and 315 of the Monster Manual Saves: Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +0 Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con --, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- Environment: Any Organization: Any Challenge Rating: 7 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: -- Level Adjustment: -- Animated Object, Fine Fine Construct Hit Dice: 1/8 d10 (1 hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 50 ft (10 squares); 60 ft legs; 70 ft multiple legs; 90 ft wheels Armor Class: 22 (+8 Size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-19 Attack: Slam +5 melee (1) Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1) Space/Reach: 1 ft/0 ft Special Attacks: Distraction (see page 13 of the Monster Manual) Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision; also see page 13 of the Monster Manual Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will -5 Abilities: Str 4, Dex 18, Con --, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- Environment: Any Organization: Any Challenge Rating: 1/4 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: -- Level Adjustment: -- Construct Swarm (Fine) Fine Construct (Swarm) Hit Dice: 8d10 (44 hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 50 ft (10 squares); 60 ft legs; 70 ft multiple legs; 90 ft wheels Armor Class: 22 (+8 Size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/- Attack: Swarm (2d6) Full Attack: Swarm (2d6) Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft Special Attacks: Distraction (see page 13 of the Monster Manual) Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, swarm traits; also see pages 13 and 315 of the Monster Manual Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will -3 Abilities: Str 4, Dex 18, Con --, Int --, Wis 1, Cha 1 Skills: -- Feats: -- Environment: Any Organization: Any Challenge Rating: 5 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: -- Level Adjustment: --
Lyric 02-22-08, 01:31 PM	hmmm, that gives me a few ideas. Wasn't there an official animate object power given in a magazine or something somewhere? or maybe in another book? Even if it's less than what you have, it still gives me ideas. An animate object power on a psychoactive skin, set to be active while PSP's are 'fed' to it... could create just what I'm looking for with a couple powers used in it's creation. Or perhaps I should use a Psycrown instead...
DracoPhoenix 02-22-08, 01:42 PM	This whole thing is more about deception rather than defense, but uses the deception as a defense. How many people do you know that would get close to an Illithid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm#assumeLikeness) to try the whole tactile interaction to "prove" it wasn't some incorporeal shape shifter?
awaken_D_M_golem 02-22-08, 03:37 PM	I was merely a lurker, when the board reached concensus that, Psi-Uncarnate wasn't as good as Unbodied. The weird undead/incorporeal Psi-thingy in CPsi, is better still. Farther afield, Savage Species gave Monster Classes, including to Shadows !!! Shadow 1, is about as good as it gets, but you're Turnable. There's also, Two different SS rituals you could use. Incorporeal sub-type is LA +2. This is the best option ... IF ... you can figure out how the ritual(s) work. That's a big if. If that gets figured out, LA+2 is buy-off-able. Full Caster/Manifester and Rock the "Body". Why not.
Slagger the Chuul 02-22-08, 09:26 PM	Due to wording, (un/)assuming items only changes when you change between the two states. If you want to be perfectly accurate, it never says that changing the designation means that the equipment won't change along with the psion uncarnate. The assume equipment ability uses the expression "once designated", not "while designated", so by the exact wording, every item that has ever been designated for assume equipment changes when the psion uncarnate does. You don't even have to be wearing them at the time, since by the exact wording used, you only need to be wearing them in order to designate them in the first place.
Lyric 02-23-08, 10:41 PM	I was merely a lurker, when the board reached concensus that, Psi-Uncarnate wasn't as good as Unbodied. The weird undead/incorporeal Psi-thingy in CPsi, is better still. Farther afield, Savage Species gave Monster Classes, including to Shadows !!! Shadow 1, is about as good as it gets, but you're Turnable. There's also, Two different SS rituals you could use. Incorporeal sub-type is LA +2. This is the best option ... IF ... you can figure out how the ritual(s) work. That's a big if. If that gets figured out, LA+2 is buy-off-able. Full Caster/Manifester and Rock the "Body". Why not. Now this sounds interesting :) can you give me source books for this? (only those from Wizards of course, no 3rd party stuff please)
The_Mess 02-24-08, 12:57 AM	Unbodied is in the XPH. The "weird undead/incorporeal Psi-thingy in CPsi" is in CPsi (Complete Psionic) The monster classes and rituals that Savage Species gave us are in Savage Species. :-)
Lyric 02-24-08, 01:54 PM	Ok, so I'm looking at the Spectral Savant (CPsi) and the Unbodied (XPH) and I'm liking the unbodied more. Still waiting on the Savage Species book. :) This would mean I could start out as an incorporeal creature, get some great stat bonuses, use my charisma for AC bonus, and gain most of the benefits of the Uncarnate class right at the start. The +4 level adjustment basically matches up with the 4 levels I'd loose in P.U. So it's a good balance in that way. I think it's a much better option, especially since I'd be able to use it earlier in my career. Question is, can I find a way to fake being solid if needed? without loosing my incorporeal status inside the 'shell'? :P (I don't want to give up my incorporeal benefits ;) lol) Ever watch Babylon 5? They had beings of energy (or partial energy) who seemed to live inside suits. That would be kinda fun, to make some kind of construct to hide myself in. :) Ectoplasmic wold be better, so it could mold itself to my shape. :P
Tedronai 02-24-08, 11:14 PM	Ok, so I'm looking at the Spectral Savant (CPsi) and the Unbodied (XPH) and I'm liking the unbodied more. Still waiting on the Savage Species book. :) This would mean I could start out as an incorporeal creature, get some great stat bonuses, use my charisma for AC bonus, and gain most of the benefits of the Uncarnate class right at the start. The +4 level adjustment basically matches up with the 4 levels I'd loose in P.U. So it's a good balance in that way. I think it's a much better option, especially since I'd be able to use it earlier in my career. Question is, can I find a way to fake being solid if needed? without loosing my incorporeal status inside the 'shell'? :P (I don't want to give up my incorporeal benefits ;) lol) Ever watch Babylon 5? They had beings of energy (or partial energy) who seemed to live inside suits. That would be kinda fun, to make some kind of construct to hide myself in. :) Ectoplasmic wold be better, so it could mold itself to my shape. :P There is a spell in the Spell Compendium, that, if you can get a cleric to cast on you will temporarily 'force' you to become corporeal (don't recall at the moment what the spell is called, AFB at the moment, but it's a clerical spell, and it's in there somewhere). It allows a save, and apparently is intended as a combat spell when dealing with incorporeal foes, but would be far more useful in your situation. Voluntarily fail the save, pick up the Skin of Proteus that you just recently purchased, and sit out the rest of the spell's duration. The skin becomes incorporeal with you, thanks to the MM3 errata to the Incorporeal subtype. Now you can use the SoP to become corporeal as needed. For more commonplace interaction, just use your Assume Likeness ability to 'look' corporeal (opaque and whatnot), combined with your Telekinetic Force ability to 'act' corporeal (pick up objects, stop objects from passing through you). You'll have to be ready for the objects' approach to use Telekinetic Force, but out of combat that shouldn't be a problem. In combat, you have more important matters to deal with (and should be hiding in the floor anyway).
Lyric 02-25-08, 10:02 AM	I'll need to look up that Eratta, do you have a page number or a link? If it works, it could be very handy. :) Thanks to some suggestions I'm thinking of considering the Unbodied for my incorporeal needs rather than the Uncarnate.
Tedronai 02-25-08, 11:17 AM	I'll need to look up that Eratta, do you have a page number or a link? If it works, it could be very handy. :) Thanks to some suggestions I'm thinking of considering the Unbodied for my incorporeal needs rather than the Uncarnate. The 'errata' is on MM3 page 214 (you'll have to wade through the block of text, it doesn't specifically call out the changes). The spell I referenced is called Ghost Trap. It's a Cleric 6, Sor/Wiz 7.