Psion Uncarnate - worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psion Uncarnate - worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hunterc311
11-01-07, 11:09 PM Looking for people with experience playing a Psion Uncarnate. Trying to figure out if it's worth the loss of 4 manifester levels. I dig the flavor and I'd like to be able to go the route, but the games I play in often demand strong characters, so I don't want to short myself if the PrC abilities just don't cut it compared to straight manifester levels. Opinions? Thanks!
Novem
11-01-07, 11:44 PM Unfortunately, it isn't. If one goes Uncarnate, one would want to get all 10 levels, but doing so- the loss of lv. 9 powers is simply not worth it.
ReverendCow
11-01-07, 11:50 PM Honestly, if you're all fired up for some bodacious incorporeal-ness, I'd suggest playing an Unbodied if you can. However, if the whole telepath thing doesn't suit your tastes, try and talk your dm into allowing different discipline-savvy variations of the unbodied. You're still going to loose some manifester levels, but, in my opinion, it'll be worth it.
CrimsonDeath
11-02-07, 01:15 AM Might be worth it for an Ardent with Practiced Manifester, because you can still get level 9 powers that way. Haven't tried it though, so I'm not sure.

Maybe I ought to toss together a theoretical build to check.
hunterc311
11-02-07, 01:16 AM Honestly, if you're all fired up for some bodacious incorporeal-ness, I'd suggest playing an Unbodied if you can. However, if the whole telepath thing doesn't suit your tastes, try and talk your dm into allowing different discipline-savvy variations of the unbodied. You're still going to loose some manifester levels, but, in my opinion, it'll be worth it.

Unfortunately, the character already exists as a Synad Telepath 2, so no dice on the Unbodied. However, I'd lose the same number of manifester levels either way, since the Unbodied only stacks its racial manifester levels (4 HD) not his Level Adjustment (+4) levels. So I'd still be a 16th level manifester at character level 20. Still, Unbodied are a bit more freeform than Uncarnates.
ReverendCow
11-02-07, 01:19 AM Brainfart, it's been a bit since I looked at the unbodied.
DracoPhoenix
11-02-07, 05:57 PM A few things to consider the Uncarnate over Unbodied:
1) Any race - Elan or human for example
2) Any discipline (those 4 levels of telepath might screw with you otherwise)
3) The Icing as it were - assume equipment. Handy haversack, Skin of Proteus and a few other treats. All of which turn incorpreal when you want them to. All your stuff can be worn without the need to ghost touch them.

As for the +4 "LA" consider what you get:

50% miss chance, ~always
ignore mundane traps, doors, weapons, walls
change shape,
telekenesis at will.

Yes, you do need to take all 10 levels, and you miss out on L9 powers, but decent ones of those are few & far between that powerstones will probably surffice. I suppose it depends on just how important the ones you want are.
(well, my DM banned it, so it must be good :))
Omen_of_Peace
11-03-07, 01:28 AM Note that Incorporeality has been revised in the MM3 IIRC (the rules are also in the ToB, for the Shadow Hand maneuver One with Shadow). Now, items that you get become incorporeal and items that leave your possession become corporeal. Meaning you can use Ghostly Grasp (LM, feat) or Retrieve or similar techniques to grab items... then leave with them !

That makes Assume Equipment redundant.

(Please correct me if I'm making mistakes - I'm AFB)
Knight0
11-03-07, 04:56 AM If your campaign is going epic you can still get 9th level powers anyway. Also IMO I think that uncarnate is worth 9th level powers. Incorporeal, Perfect Flight, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, the ghost touch and also the +1 to DC of powers is nice.
DracoPhoenix
11-03-07, 07:11 AM That makes Assume Equipment redundant.

If it's true, it's a bit irritating.

But then, Uncarnate still allows you to become corpreal and make any picked up items in/corporeal too.

(I've mentioned elsewhere a few times the obvious loophole of Uncarnate + Skin of Proteus, though DMs may dispute the specifics of making items in/corporeal)
Tedronai
11-03-07, 04:32 PM I regret to have to point out, that, as an Unbodied, you only LOOK however you please, while, in fact, you have no true form of your own. That has several devastating side effects, foremost among them being that you have no magic item body slots whatsoever, let alone the ability to manipulate items without the use of your telekinesis ability (meaning that the changes to incorporeality essentially have no effect on the usefulness of the Unbodied as a playable race)
hunterc311
11-03-07, 09:28 PM Note that Incorporeality has been revised in the MM3 IIRC (the rules are also in the ToB, for the Shadow Hand maneuver One with Shadow). Now, items that you get become incorporeal and items that leave your possession become corporeal. Meaning you can use Ghostly Grasp (LM, feat) or Retrieve or similar techniques to grab items... then leave with them !

That makes Assume Equipment redundant.

(Please correct me if I'm making mistakes - I'm AFB)

At first glance, it certainly does seem like the revision of the incorporeal subtype completely nullifies several features of the Psion Uncarnate class; mainly the Shed Body and Assume Equipment abilities. However, reading the exact letter of the descriptions leads me to this logic:

"Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession."

"All his equipment remains material, even when the character is uncarnate."

The former refers to a creature that is incorporeal by nature. The latter describes a creature that is corporeal by nature and becomes incorporeal.

A creature that is always incorporeal has equipment that is always incorporeal. It doesn't explain how that equipment got to be on the incorporeal creature, which is a snag, but only for nitpickers. (Does beg the question, how does an incorporeal creature actually get equipment in the first place?) However, the Uncarnate's equipment is corporeal, and when he turns incorporeal, it doesn't automatically allow his equipment to do the same.

I would lean towards the Uncarnate gaining a special form of incorporeality, that is differentiated in certain places by the description of some prestige class features.

"They cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects."

The Psion Uncarnate seems to be given the power to ignore this particular aspect of incorporeality. No reason given why, but then again many abilities don't have reasoning attached to them, so this too is only a snag for the nitpickers. We can assume that the Shed Body (Su) ability grants a circumstance similar to one that the Ghostly Grasp feat grants. Many abilities do the same thing as feats do, so this isn't an unusual leap.

A standard incorporeal creature cannot touch corporeal objects without the Ghostly Grasp feat, or something similar. The Psion Uncarnate is given the ability to touch corporeal objects, while incorporeal himself, as part of a class feature.

The Assume Equipment (Su) ability seems to be there to allow for the Uncarnate's special form of incorporeality to slowly become more like true incorporeality. Can't guess at much more here.

I realize I'm reaching, and the MMIII came out after the XPH, seemingly throwing off much of the PrC's content. But the Uncarnate's incorporeality does seem to be different than normal incorporeality in several ways, so it's not a stretch to assume it functions differently as well.

For what it's worth, I'd be interested to see what CS or the Sage has to say about this. Not the first time WotC has seemingly nullified previous content by revising other content. Think I'll go shoot them a letter right now in fact.
Knight0
11-04-07, 03:46 AM Incorporeality isn't the only benefit that psion uncarnate gets also remember it gets incorporeality which is why you would take the class. It gets:
The incorporeal touch attack, Alter Self at Will, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, +1 to the DC of powers and can make switch between incorporeal and corporeal.
hunterc311
11-04-07, 03:11 PM The incorporeal touch attack, Alter Self at Will, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, +1 to the DC of powers and can make switch between incorporeal and corporeal.

All of which doesn't matter until level 10 of the class. All that "at will" stuff and the touch attack, prior to level 10, can only be done 1-2 minutes per day, because the PC can only be incorporeal for 1-2 minutes per day. Otherwise, the more I look at the class, the weaker it seems. What does it really have until level 10 that is worth the loss of 4 manifester levels?
DracoPhoenix
11-04-07, 06:16 PM All of which doesn't matter until level 10 of the class. All that "at will" stuff and the touch attack, prior to level 10, can only be done 1-2 minutes per day, because the PC can only be incorporeal for 1-2 minutes per day. Otherwise, the more I look at the class, the weaker it seems. What does it really have until level 10 that is worth the loss of 4 manifester levels?

To be fair, the context of the +4LA is against the full progression arcane & divine casting PrCs.
There is virtually no reason not to take a wizard PrC, whereas psions were tweaked to, in most cases*1, make the decision between a few more (of an already small set of) powers and pp (which gets +50+pp for the last 2 levels) and the benefits of a PrC an actual trade off.
They just got a bit heavy handed in some places.

Also, my understanding (based on my group's 2 DMs, so somewhat limited) is incorporeal is a bigger deal for them to deal with than for PCs. :rolleyes:

Psionics kinda got the short straw on the attempt to "balance" the benfits of a PrC vs straight 20 base class. But this is mainly as the full progression caster PrCs still exist.

Shame they couldn't "errata" a few of the original Arcane PrCs in Comp Mage like the did Astral Construct in Comp Psi.

Btw, not got Comp Mage, but I take it Summon X spells got nerfed to 1 at a time too? Given the "reasons" for the AC nerf apply equally to SM.

... /:rant:

*1: Metamind does not count as it's actually worse at it's intended role than a straight 20 psion. :rolleyes:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hunterc311 11-01-07, 11:09 PM	Looking for people with experience playing a Psion Uncarnate. Trying to figure out if it's worth the loss of 4 manifester levels. I dig the flavor and I'd like to be able to go the route, but the games I play in often demand strong characters, so I don't want to short myself if the PrC abilities just don't cut it compared to straight manifester levels. Opinions? Thanks!
Novem 11-01-07, 11:44 PM	Unfortunately, it isn't. If one goes Uncarnate, one would want to get all 10 levels, but doing so- the loss of lv. 9 powers is simply not worth it.
ReverendCow 11-01-07, 11:50 PM	Honestly, if you're all fired up for some bodacious incorporeal-ness, I'd suggest playing an Unbodied if you can. However, if the whole telepath thing doesn't suit your tastes, try and talk your dm into allowing different discipline-savvy variations of the unbodied. You're still going to loose some manifester levels, but, in my opinion, it'll be worth it.
CrimsonDeath 11-02-07, 01:15 AM	Might be worth it for an Ardent with Practiced Manifester, because you can still get level 9 powers that way. Haven't tried it though, so I'm not sure. Maybe I ought to toss together a theoretical build to check.
hunterc311 11-02-07, 01:16 AM	Honestly, if you're all fired up for some bodacious incorporeal-ness, I'd suggest playing an Unbodied if you can. However, if the whole telepath thing doesn't suit your tastes, try and talk your dm into allowing different discipline-savvy variations of the unbodied. You're still going to loose some manifester levels, but, in my opinion, it'll be worth it. Unfortunately, the character already exists as a Synad Telepath 2, so no dice on the Unbodied. However, I'd lose the same number of manifester levels either way, since the Unbodied only stacks its racial manifester levels (4 HD) not his Level Adjustment (+4) levels. So I'd still be a 16th level manifester at character level 20. Still, Unbodied are a bit more freeform than Uncarnates.
ReverendCow 11-02-07, 01:19 AM	Brainfart, it's been a bit since I looked at the unbodied.
DracoPhoenix 11-02-07, 05:57 PM	A few things to consider the Uncarnate over Unbodied: 1) Any race - Elan or human for example 2) Any discipline (those 4 levels of telepath might screw with you otherwise) 3) The Icing as it were - assume equipment. Handy haversack, Skin of Proteus and a few other treats. All of which turn incorpreal when you want them to. All your stuff can be worn without the need to ghost touch them. As for the +4 "LA" consider what you get: 50% miss chance, ~always ignore mundane traps, doors, weapons, walls change shape, telekenesis at will. Yes, you do need to take all 10 levels, and you miss out on L9 powers, but decent ones of those are few & far between that powerstones will probably surffice. I suppose it depends on just how important the ones you want are. (well, my DM banned it, so it must be good :))
Omen_of_Peace 11-03-07, 01:28 AM	Note that Incorporeality has been revised in the MM3 IIRC (the rules are also in the ToB, for the Shadow Hand maneuver One with Shadow). Now, items that you get become incorporeal and items that leave your possession become corporeal. Meaning you can use Ghostly Grasp (LM, feat) or Retrieve or similar techniques to grab items... then leave with them ! That makes Assume Equipment redundant. (Please correct me if I'm making mistakes - I'm AFB)
Knight0 11-03-07, 04:56 AM	If your campaign is going epic you can still get 9th level powers anyway. Also IMO I think that uncarnate is worth 9th level powers. Incorporeal, Perfect Flight, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, the ghost touch and also the +1 to DC of powers is nice.
DracoPhoenix 11-03-07, 07:11 AM	That makes Assume Equipment redundant. If it's true, it's a bit irritating. But then, Uncarnate still allows you to become corpreal and make any picked up items in/corporeal too. (I've mentioned elsewhere a few times the obvious loophole of Uncarnate + Skin of Proteus, though DMs may dispute the specifics of making items in/corporeal)
Tedronai 11-03-07, 04:32 PM	I regret to have to point out, that, as an Unbodied, you only LOOK however you please, while, in fact, you have no true form of your own. That has several devastating side effects, foremost among them being that you have no magic item body slots whatsoever, let alone the ability to manipulate items without the use of your telekinesis ability (meaning that the changes to incorporeality essentially have no effect on the usefulness of the Unbodied as a playable race)
hunterc311 11-03-07, 09:28 PM	Note that Incorporeality has been revised in the MM3 IIRC (the rules are also in the ToB, for the Shadow Hand maneuver One with Shadow). Now, items that you get become incorporeal and items that leave your possession become corporeal. Meaning you can use Ghostly Grasp (LM, feat) or Retrieve or similar techniques to grab items... then leave with them ! That makes Assume Equipment redundant. (Please correct me if I'm making mistakes - I'm AFB) At first glance, it certainly does seem like the revision of the incorporeal subtype completely nullifies several features of the Psion Uncarnate class; mainly the Shed Body and Assume Equipment abilities. However, reading the exact letter of the descriptions leads me to this logic: "Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession." "All his equipment remains material, even when the character is uncarnate." The former refers to a creature that is incorporeal by nature. The latter describes a creature that is corporeal by nature and becomes incorporeal. A creature that is always incorporeal has equipment that is always incorporeal. It doesn't explain how that equipment got to be on the incorporeal creature, which is a snag, but only for nitpickers. (Does beg the question, how does an incorporeal creature actually get equipment in the first place?) However, the Uncarnate's equipment is corporeal, and when he turns incorporeal, it doesn't automatically allow his equipment to do the same. I would lean towards the Uncarnate gaining a special form of incorporeality, that is differentiated in certain places by the description of some prestige class features. "They cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects." The Psion Uncarnate seems to be given the power to ignore this particular aspect of incorporeality. No reason given why, but then again many abilities don't have reasoning attached to them, so this too is only a snag for the nitpickers. We can assume that the Shed Body (Su) ability grants a circumstance similar to one that the Ghostly Grasp feat grants. Many abilities do the same thing as feats do, so this isn't an unusual leap. A standard incorporeal creature cannot touch corporeal objects without the Ghostly Grasp feat, or something similar. The Psion Uncarnate is given the ability to touch corporeal objects, while incorporeal himself, as part of a class feature. The Assume Equipment (Su) ability seems to be there to allow for the Uncarnate's special form of incorporeality to slowly become more like true incorporeality. Can't guess at much more here. I realize I'm reaching, and the MMIII came out after the XPH, seemingly throwing off much of the PrC's content. But the Uncarnate's incorporeality does seem to be different than normal incorporeality in several ways, so it's not a stretch to assume it functions differently as well. For what it's worth, I'd be interested to see what CS or the Sage has to say about this. Not the first time WotC has seemingly nullified previous content by revising other content. Think I'll go shoot them a letter right now in fact.
Knight0 11-04-07, 03:46 AM	Incorporeality isn't the only benefit that psion uncarnate gets also remember it gets incorporeality which is why you would take the class. It gets: The incorporeal touch attack, Alter Self at Will, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, +1 to the DC of powers and can make switch between incorporeal and corporeal.
hunterc311 11-04-07, 03:11 PM	The incorporeal touch attack, Alter Self at Will, Telekinesis at will, the short range teleportation, +1 to the DC of powers and can make switch between incorporeal and corporeal. All of which doesn't matter until level 10 of the class. All that "at will" stuff and the touch attack, prior to level 10, can only be done 1-2 minutes per day, because the PC can only be incorporeal for 1-2 minutes per day. Otherwise, the more I look at the class, the weaker it seems. What does it really have until level 10 that is worth the loss of 4 manifester levels?
DracoPhoenix 11-04-07, 06:16 PM	All of which doesn't matter until level 10 of the class. All that "at will" stuff and the touch attack, prior to level 10, can only be done 1-2 minutes per day, because the PC can only be incorporeal for 1-2 minutes per day. Otherwise, the more I look at the class, the weaker it seems. What does it really have until level 10 that is worth the loss of 4 manifester levels? To be fair, the context of the +4LA is against the full progression arcane & divine casting PrCs. There is virtually no reason not to take a wizard PrC, whereas psions were tweaked to, in most cases1, make the decision between a few more (of an already small set of) powers and pp (which gets +50+pp for the last 2 levels) and the benefits of a PrC an actual trade off. They just got a bit heavy handed in some places. Also, my understanding (based on my group's 2 DMs, so somewhat limited) is incorporeal is a bigger deal for them to deal with than for PCs. :rolleyes: Psionics kinda got the short straw on the attempt to "balance" the benfits of a PrC vs straight 20 base class. But this is mainly as the full progression caster PrCs still exist. Shame they couldn't "errata" a few of the original Arcane PrCs in Comp Mage like the did Astral Construct in Comp Psi. Btw, not got Comp Mage, but I take it Summon X spells got nerfed to 1 at a time too? Given the "reasons" for the AC nerf apply equally to SM. ... /:rant: 1: Metamind does not count as it's actually worse at it's intended role than a straight 20 psion. :rolleyes: