Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moosh Nailo 09-19-07, 06:33 PM	Pardon me, but I've noticed more people than I am comfortable with under the assumption that you must have some initial psionic power before entering into a psionic class. Eg: psionic racial abilities, or the wild talent feat, or what have you. THIS IS NOT TRUE! Psionic classes are like any other classes, you can take as few or as many levels as you like, when you want to. There is no difference, in this regard, between a psion and a sorcerer, or a fighter. It is a base class like any other. Remember, unless its a prestige class, the only* requirement you will find to be in a class is alignment, and that only for some specific classes. *I'm about 99% sure on this one
InkBlot 09-19-07, 07:04 PM	You're preaching to the choir, buddy. Have you considered cross-posting this to the Classes&PrestigeClasses board?
sijigs 09-19-07, 07:21 PM	Bags not being a soprano.
JulesCARV 09-19-07, 07:28 PM	Well, I believe that there's some weird RPGA rule in Eberron: Mark of Heroes campaigns that says that only Kalashtar can be psionicists as PCs. That's really neither here nor there as far as psionics in general, though, since it bans all non-Kalashtar psionics-users, whether elan, half-giant, human, or warforged.
Tempest Stormwind 09-19-07, 08:22 PM	Well, I believe that there's some weird RPGA rule in Eberron: Mark of Heroes campaigns that says that only Kalashtar can be psionicists as PCs. That's really neither here nor there as far as psionics in general, though, since it bans all non-Kalashtar psionics-users, whether elan, half-giant, human, or warforged. This is also the RPGA, where you have to play some mindless trite before you "unlock" the privilege of playing what you wanted from the beginning.
Sagetim 09-19-07, 09:38 PM	Well, I believe that there's some weird RPGA rule in Eberron: Mark of Heroes campaigns that says that only Kalashtar can be psionicists as PCs. That's really neither here nor there as far as psionics in general, though, since it bans all non-Kalashtar psionics-users, whether elan, half-giant, human, or warforged. I'm sorry, WHAT? How the HELL can an Elan NOT be a psychic class? That's the only way to become one of that race. I mean, MAYBE another class, like monk with wild talent, might be able to qualify. But for the most part I would at least think that you have to have some levels of a psionic class (even the soulknife, which gets the least pp/day of all the psionic classes...2) I'm wondering how the hell someone could justify having a non psionic elan. I mean, not like 'all elan must be psychic class' but more of how can you ban them? they're the most psychic'd up humans around. So much so as to be an actual 'race' of beings rather than a race of humans (ie, like the difference between elf, human, halfling rather than black, white, etc). Who the hell came up with that? and how could they possibly justify not allowing elan, who HAVE to undergo a psionic ritual to become an elan, the ability to become a psionic class. The Half giants, etc I can see. They are 'naturally psychic' but they aren't MADE of psychic energy. Exception to the rant: If the setting straight out bans Elan, well that's fine. But if your going to have Elan, they have to be able to become psychic. It's a very very inherent part of the race. More or less the core of their being is psychic energy. Just...what the hell? If you don't want elan to be psychic, then don't allow them in the game. They're almost on par with the Ascended from the Stargate TV show (beings of pure energy blah blah blah). They might not have the godlike powers, but that's where psionic classes come in. Anywho, I'm nice and happy with my rant. mmm, ranttastic.
InkBlot 09-20-07, 12:09 AM	It's the RPGA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga). No use getting upset. The RPGA is the professional wrestling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBxbP-AmWYA) of tabletop roleplaying games. It's best to ignore them. Truly.
Sagetim 09-20-07, 12:57 AM	It's the RPGA (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga). No use getting upset. The RPGA is the professional wrestling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBxbP-AmWYA) of tabletop roleplaying games. It's best to ignore them. Truly. But....But...Elan need psychic for....God making. graaaaah! Hulk smash! still, it's just not right to mess with fundamentals like that. If you want to ban a race that's inherently the most magical freaking thing around from taking any magical classes, you're denying them the heart of their existence. If there ever was chaotic evil, that would be it.
Tempest Stormwind 09-20-07, 01:03 AM	Nah, if you violate word one of the RPGA's game guidelines, they do nasty things to you with pointed sticks. Lawful evil. Recall, it's not that they ban it, so much as they really, really make you jump through a hoop maze to do what anyone else would let you do from the beginning. The only reason I enjoy their existence is that because they're "official" we get to see the equivalent of a ban list -- problematic effects (i.e. polymorph) are restricted from the RPGA -- which doesn't show up anywhere else in this game.
Sagetim 09-20-07, 01:34 AM	Nah, if you violate word one of the RPGA's game guidelines, they do nasty things to you with pointed sticks. Lawful evil. Recall, it's not that they ban it, so much as they really, really make you jump through a hoop maze to do what anyone else would let you do from the beginning. The only reason I enjoy their existence is that because they're "official" we get to see the equivalent of a ban list -- problematic effects (i.e. polymorph) are restricted from the RPGA -- which doesn't show up anywhere else in this game. what kind of hoops are we talking? I mean, expecting a reasonable background for a character of a race like the elan is just fine. Making them have to be effective clones of one another just to be a psychic class however, is utter ****. Please, do tell me more.
Tempest Stormwind 09-20-07, 01:47 AM	what kind of hoops are we talking? I mean, expecting a reasonable background for a character of a race like the elan is just fine. Making them have to be effective clones of one another just to be a psychic class however, is utter ****. Please, do tell me more. Psh, background? Background matters not. First, register in the RPGA, and find a DM (himself having been tested by the RPGA) running an RPGA-sanctioned event. Your character is usually limited to a particular region, based on where you are in the world (for instance, in Living Greyhawk, people in different parts of the continent could only produce characters from particular parts of Greyhawk). Complete X RPGA events (or a particuar RPGA event, either a specific adventure or a specific game time) and you're rewarded with cards that unlock features from the game; you show these cards to the DMs and they say "fine, you've jumped through enough hoops and can now play exactly what that card allows." Sometimes. ...I just game over OpenRPG. All the joys of a global game community with none of the BS.
AntiDjinn 09-20-07, 02:30 PM	Pardon me, but I've noticed more people than I am comfortable with under the assumption that you must have some initial psionic power before entering into a psionic class. Eg: psionic racial abilities, or the wild talent feat, or what have you. Like all base classes, taking a level is a simple as writing: Psion 1, Psychic Warrior 1, etc., on the "Class" line of your character sheet. There are exactly no other hoops to jump through, unless you are dealing with a table rule to the contrary. It is a simple concept, one that is clear to anyone who has actually read the XPH. What I have noticed is more and more people showing up with questions who obviously haven't even lifted the cover of the book. Posters who don't even know the names of the character classes, ask about "psionicists" (2E legacy), ask if their telepath needs to take a feat to learn energy ray, ask about qualifications to be "syphionic", haven't read the book or the FAQ. One additional problem here: The number of posters who tell them they don't need to read the XPH because the SRD suffices. I would like to ask those people to knock it off. Obviously the SRD alone is not sufficient or we would be seeing a higher caliber of output from those who have used it instead of the XPH. When someone asks the question: Should I get the XPH? The correct answer is: "Yes (concerns about the impending 4th edition aside, or mentioned if you like) and you should actually read it before posting questions, deciding it is broken, declaring it science fiction, or otherwise forming uninformed opinions." Buying it is not the issue (read it at Borders or borrow a friends if you are cheap) although sales of this book are of definite interest to our community because it largely determines whether or not the company will continue to put out psionic material. The SRD is a handy resource for those already familiar with the material; if you need to look something up or want to quote a rule on the boards it is easy to do. It was never intended to be the way to learn the rules. It is not official errata either (e.g., the "Slayer" is not an errata'ed version of the "Illithid Slayer"). It is a resource for 3rd party developers. Its contents are not the official game rules, merely the OGL portions of those rules. Referring newbies to a set of rules with chunks of text omitted doesn't help them or us.
Fafnir 09-20-07, 03:13 PM	AntiDjinn summed up my thoughts perfectly.
HoshiAdam 09-20-07, 03:23 PM	I'm not sure if elans are banned in the Eberron RPGA games, but considering how weird the background is for that race in Eberron, it wouldn't surprise me.
Moosh Nailo 09-20-07, 06:46 PM	I'd re-post in the classes forum, but I think its really AntiDjinn that should do the posting. Unless he/she is comfortable with me copy-pasting some of his argument? Can't one of the mods or whoever simply move this thread over there? Or are there special requirements for them to do something like that?
Lycanthromancer 09-20-07, 08:25 PM	Well, you could get the thread locked, if you tried real hard. I doubt that's what you were after, though.
Sagetim 09-20-07, 08:53 PM	I'm not sure if elans are banned in the Eberron RPGA games, but considering how weird the background is for that race in Eberron, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm pretty sure they ARE in the official campaign setting. Granted, someone could technically have the 'first elan' be the same person as the 'first human' who literally took the powers of the mind really far, thus being what? 20 or 30 thousand some odd years old? It'd be pretty funny to me if a DM allowed me to play a venerable elan as my character...heh...yes...there's no maximum age limit, therefore I choose for my character to be x thousand years old, older than any non deific non outsider force on the mortal plane. Hell, for flavor we could have the old man have changed diapers of the evil person he's fighting...which would be a lich. heheh..
AntiDjinn 09-20-07, 09:31 PM	Cross-posting a psionic topic other forums is often a waste of time. People who are actually interested in psionics come here. Those who don't use psionics generally just treat psionic topics as invisible. The exception are those who dislike psionics so strongly that not only do they not use it, they believe that no one else should use it either because they are not playing D&D correctly. Such posters show up just to flame, post blatant nonsense based on their own imagined version of the rules (such as 5th level manifesters spending 20 points on a single power), ignore facts to the contrary, then wait for the next trolling opportunity.
Moosh Nailo 09-20-07, 10:05 PM	Well sure, but who doesn't enjoy a good bbq every once in a while? :D But I get your point. Then let it be said I'm quite happy with the fact that people are reading and replying to my post.
InkBlot 09-20-07, 11:17 PM	I'm pretty sure they ARE in the official campaign setting. Granted, someone could technically have the 'first elan' be the same person as the 'first human' who literally took the powers of the mind really far, thus being what? 20 or 30 thousand some odd years old? It'd be pretty funny to me if a DM allowed me to play a venerable elan as my character...heh...yes...there's no maximum age limit, therefore I choose for my character to be x thousand years old, older than any non deific non outsider force on the mortal plane. Hell, for flavor we could have the old man have changed diapers of the evil person he's fighting...which would be a lich. heheh.. In a game I ran once, a player played a venerable elan psion who was only a little over a thousand years old. He had been trapped inside a collapsing library during an ancient war. The city's new owners simply built over the rubble, leaving him trapped for seven hundred years (he was already extremely old when he got trapped). He was freed when war once again came to the city, and a bomb blasted a large enough hole for him to escape through. I would have let him be even older, but he was starting at level 3 and it was hard to imagine someone living for several thousand years and not being at least 7th level.
Moosh Nailo 09-20-07, 11:29 PM	Thats awesome! Did he take knowledge skills, maybe associated feats, to represent his time in "detention"?
Sagetim 09-20-07, 11:36 PM	In a game I ran once, a player played a venerable elan psion who was only a little over a thousand years old. He had been trapped inside a collapsing library during an ancient war. The city's new owners simply built over the rubble, leaving him trapped for seven hundred years (he was already extremely old when he got trapped). He was freed when war once again came to the city, and a bomb blasted a large enough hole for him to escape through. I would have let him be even older, but he was starting at level 3 and it was hard to imagine someone living for several thousand years and not being at least 7th level. well, I can think of a way for that to happen. you get to level 3...then you get stuck in a cave that has an air hole in it and naught else. So you just start to go crazy...
Tempest Stormwind 09-20-07, 11:54 PM	Inkblot, that's a winner, right there. In an odd way, it reminds me of Time Enough At Last, which would have been an excellent way to play this background in Eberron, now that I think of it. (If you aren't familiar with what is quite possibly the most famous Twilight Zone episode, it's available on YouTube in three parts, hyperlinked here for ease of search: Part 1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tafEa8XR5CA), Part 2 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5relJz8UpMU), and Part 3 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=UbQQlXBhwUc). It's very much worth the watch, despite the poor picture quality.) I also ran an elan NPC at one point similarly, but in his case, the isolation was deliberate and more inspired by Last Exile and Spelljammer than anything else. (Imagine an airship that had existed for so long as to build up a Flying Dutchman legend around it, that served whichever captain who could claim it, but was also rumored to be intelligent, and when left to its own devices would always propel its extraordinary crew to where they were needed most. Now imagine that the ship was actually just a very sophisticated flying fortress, with the "intelligence" of the ship just being a very reclusive elan society mind // seer sealed in a library-style vault (with no doors, naturally) with the helm controls. The ship's face and 'executive officer' was a dryad (her tree was unknowingly used in the ship's construction); she was the elan 'helmsman''s only contact, and that was only because she could walk into the vault to occasionally deliver new books.)
JulesCARV 09-20-07, 11:59 PM	Well, if you go with Eberron rules, 90+% of people are never going to be higher level than first level (almost always level 1 commoner, to be specific). An elf might live to be 500 years old, but will still be a level 1 commoner: it's not a matter of experience -- it's a matter of dramatic importance (A highly experienced, competent, venerable commoner might be level 2 in contrast to the other commoner 1s, but an inexperienced, alcoholic, and slow-witted king might be an aristocrat 4 in contrast to an aristocrat 7 who might be a "typical" king or an aristocrat 10 who represents a powerful, competent, experienced king). If you took Queen Aurala off of the throne of Aundair, transmuted her to be unrecognizable but typical as a sort of "random middle-aged white woman," then had her live anonymously as a peasant, and as DM you had no plans for her dramatic return to power, she'd probably quickly lose the aristocrat levels and be a commoner 1 or somesuch, albeit one with unusually broad knowledge of diplomacy, public policy, statecraft, etc, and unusual ineptitude at milking cows, plowing fields, etc, since she's not important to the story anymore. Someone might live thousands of years at third level, then suddenly leapfrog to level 8 within a few months as you start playing him, since he's now a dramatically important person, as a PC.
TheKeyofE 09-21-07, 12:57 AM	Exactly right, Jules. Here (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) is my favorite article on the subject. So the elan locked in the basement could concievably stay 3rd level for thousands of years. Even with all those books to read, he's not really experiencing anything new so he's not growing and expanding physically, mentally, and spiritually in the way that would grant additional class levels. Experience comes from conflict, and being buried alive alone in a library doesn't have a lot of inherent conflict.
StruckingFuggle 09-21-07, 01:16 AM	Tempest ... that's awesome. Can I borrow elements from that?
Sagetim 09-21-07, 01:16 AM	Exactly right, Jules. Here (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) is my favorite article on the subject. So the elan locked in the basement could concievably stay 3rd level for thousands of years. Even with all those books to read, he's not really experiencing anything new so he's not growing and expanding physically, mentally, and spiritually in the way that would grant additional class levels. Experience comes from conflict, and being buried alive alone in a library doesn't have a lot of inherent conflict. well you might go insane with boredom....but I really like the idea of the 'sentient ship' thing. Sounds like something I would actually like to play. get to sit around in a room all the time, probably be some really high level before being sealed in (so that the range of the society mind network would be long enough to not only be on the ship, but some distance from the ship). Etc. A thing about an elan who's been stuck in a place for a thousand years or more though: I'd be willing to give them either access to skills that they normally can't have (learning druidic perhaps? ) or giving them...oh wait, with an int bonus from old age of +3, they would have at least a handful of extra skill points to throw around.
AntiDjinn 09-21-07, 01:39 AM	For Eberron elan, such a scenario could be relatively commonplace. People turning into elan won't always have grand plans for their eternal life and they need not have given up previous lives in return for immortality. In Eberron, elan immortality is not a reward granted by the Cullers, it is a punishment meted out by the quori. Well, it is punitive for the bound quori spirit, it is a pretty sweet deal for the human host, if they don't mind becoming aberrations. Rather than a former 30th level ranger who is starting a new life as a first level psychic warrior, the character could just be a first level psychic warrior who happened to be selected as a host. And what could be a more excruciating torment for a particularly ambitious quori criminal than to be bound to one who would like to spend all eternity practicing fly fishing or building his stamp collection? If the agents of the Dreaming Dark who choose the hosts are feeling particularly ill-disposed towards a given quori criminal, they may go out of their way to select a host who is the last being the condemned would like to cohabitate for all eternity.
Tempest Stormwind 09-21-07, 01:43 AM	Feel free to borrow it. I can actually do one better and show you the basic template I used for the ship (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5524950&postcount=35). (I found a way to afford that as a 20th level character and an 18th level cohort, and still have money left over for shuttles/raiding ships/launches/whatever. It's tricky, but doable. There were some modifications from there, but that's roughly 85% of the work for you.) From there, it was just an interesting character concept ("How far can I go with the 'distant benefactor' aspect of the society mind?") and having just read a large combination of Spelljammer and Stormwrack (hint: Seer not only gets him info on the world and the future, but also opens up the two "Helmsman" powers in that book, which are awesome in this context), along with having recently finished Last Exile (http://youtube.com/watch?v=M7JJ1m5RfrA) for the second time*. The rest just clicked. (EDIT: For the record, he was high-level, but he could have theoretically gained experience even after establishing the ship. He was overcoming challenges, but on a Draconic-Prophecy-esque scale instead of an individual person scale, by making sure that his ship gathered powerful adventurers from around the world and took them where they were needed most (tell me that doesn't drip of pulp *and* of Eberron right there, and I'll set you on fire with my mind), and as a result would definitely have continued to gain XP.) Sadly, I never actually got a chance to run it in an extended game (one-shots don't show off the full legacy well). Fortunately, it ended up being used in a friend's game. To my knowledge, they never figured out the secret of the ship. * I apologized before for the poor quality of YouTube, but that was for a 1959 black-and-white TV episode (of masterwork writing, mind you, but still). Sadly, I must profusely do the same for this one. Last Exile's animation quality compares favorably to Akira**, and it was a weekly series on top of that! ** If you haven't seen Akira, all you need to know out of this is that it was to animation what Industrial Light and Magic (Star Wars) was to traditional film special effects.
CrimsonDeath 09-21-07, 04:28 AM	Tempest, I know you didn't cite it as one of your sources of inspiration, but that starship reminded me of Farscape in a tangential way.
turalisj 09-21-07, 07:26 AM	Well, I believe that there's some weird RPGA rule in Eberron: Mark of Heroes campaigns that says that only Kalashtar can be psionicists as PCs. That's really neither here nor there as far as psionics in general, though, since it bans all non-Kalashtar psionics-users, whether elan, half-giant, human, or warforged. Got to hand it to the crack smoking monkies they use in R&D.
Tempest Stormwind 09-21-07, 10:31 AM	Tempest, I know you didn't cite it as one of your sources of inspiration, but that starship reminded me of Farscape in a tangential way. I hated that show (although I'll give you that I only saw the first season and random episodes from later on), but yeah, I can see why people would make the connection. Just imagine that the crew didn't know the difference between Moya (or however it was spelled) and Pilot, having never seen the latter.
InkBlot 09-21-07, 12:16 PM	So the elan locked in the basement could concievably stay 3rd level for thousands of years. Even with all those books to read, he's not really experiencing anything new so he's not growing and expanding physically, mentally, and spiritually in the way that would grant additional class levels. Experience comes from conflict, and being buried alive alone in a library doesn't have a lot of inherent conflict. That's exactly how it happened. He reached level three some time over the course of a few hundred years, then couldn't advance further because he was trapped. The stay in the library could not be made longer, because it was a semi-historical setting and doing so would require drastically changing important historical events. The library was in Constantinople. So if he was going to be older, then he would have spent more time exploring the world, and would have had more levels. Inkblot, that's a winner, right there. In an odd way, it reminds me of Time Enough At Last, which would have been an excellent way to play this background in Eberron, now that I think of it. (If you aren't familiar with what is quite possibly the most famous Twilight Zone episode, it's available on YouTube in three parts, hyperlinked here for ease of search: Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. It's very much worth the watch, despite the poor picture quality.) Thank you. That episode of Twilight Zone is something I reference almost every single day. Whenever somebody says "it's not fair" I reflexively reply (sometimes holding my glasses in my hands for dramatic effect) "there was time now." Often I say "there was time now" instead of "it's not fair." A thing about an elan who's been stuck in a place for a thousand years or more though: I'd be willing to give them either access to skills that they normally can't have (learning druidic perhaps? ) or giving them...oh wait, with an int bonus from old age of +3, they would have at least a handful of extra skill points to throw around. I didn't give him any special advantage for his backstory. The existent rules are meant to allow you to represent a character's history in his stats. He did take knowledge skills, I forget if he took many, and I don't recall if he took call to mind. His character did go slightly crazy, and created imaginary friends (astral constructs) to help stave off loneliness. During the game the player played his character more like a time traveler (http://forums.koalawallop.com/viewtopic.php?t=1719) (which he was in a way) than anything else.