Psionic Dominate: How useful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic Dominate: How useful? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AstralFireIX
10-29-07, 02:06 PM I'm getting ready to join a game that is... well, pretty monty haul. The DM tries to limit it, but I'll be the first real talkative addition, so I'm not expecting a whole lot of intrigue and subtle manipulation type roleplay. One guy who can't keep his mouth shut doesn't really change much out of a group of six.

So that said, how useful is Psionic Dominate for such a campaign? The annoying clauses of "can't take obviously self-destructive actions" and "gets a reroll at a +2 if they do anything against their nature (which is a LOT of things)" seem to really limit the usefulness.
Suspect_Unusual
10-29-07, 02:40 PM It's best use is with things that are violent by nature, or at least wouldn't mind WHO it tears to shreds so long as it is allowed to, well, tear its opponent to shreds.

Think lion, tiger, dire bear (oh my!), or non-henchmen ogres or trolls, or a vicious frost giant, or a Gray Render... Think big, stupid, and brutal.
Friendlyfish
10-29-07, 02:56 PM It's very useful, especially if you're against evil foes. Evil foes don't mind killing other evil foes in combat, if that's what you're worried about. The "against nature" clause mostly comes into play when you're ordering a paladin to kill some orphans or something like that.

If you're dominating something to do what it does everyday on your behalf you're pretty safe, and that includes most NPCs that you're going to run into. Monsters fight, only on your side. NPC wizards pen scrolls, make magic items, blast foes, and overthrow kingdoms only on your side. Monsters do NOT throw themselves down shafts or hold tea parties for orphans. Wizards do NOT eat their own familiars or stuff their wand of fireball into their mouth and mumble the command phrase.

At the same time, you and the DM should come up with some ground rules because the "against nature" clause is very vague. Some idiot DMs really like to stealth nerf this power by invoking the clause after giving any order to a dominated thrall, and that's just not the intention.

Alternatively, you can drop the clause entirely, because Dominate is entirely ABOUT making creatures do things that aren't in their nature, i.e. serving you. There's nothing natural about that, so it's almost oxymoronic in that sense.

In practice, a good DM makes it pretty hard to trip the clause, and only when it's clear that you're abusing the party and townsfolk NPCs using it. Making your party rogue that you hate eat his own poop definitely trips the clause.
Suspect_Unusual
10-29-07, 03:05 PM If you're really, really worried your DM is going to be tricksy about what is "against something's nature", ask the creature after you dominate it what the boundaries of its nature are. Unless your DM is being an extremely assinine person, you should be able to get a general feel of not only what the DM things "against their nature" means, but what it means specifically for each foe you dominate.
AstralFireIX
10-29-07, 03:54 PM Alternatively, you can drop the clause entirely, because Dominate is entirely ABOUT making creatures do things that aren't in their nature, i.e. serving you. There's nothing natural about that, so it's almost oxymoronic in that sense.

That's always been my point of view, and the same reason I'm afraid of the clause - almost everything you would want dominate to do is against their nature.
The_Shaman
10-29-07, 07:55 PM It really depends on how your dm stretches it. Chances are that if you dominate a warrior, having him fight another warrior won't be against their nature. I'd say only suicidal commands or those that would pit the subject against a very close associate/friend would give them the bonus.
Disciple_of_Salsa
10-29-07, 08:08 PM If you can't force them to attack their friends, force them to get in the way. They can distract spellcasters, nonlethally grapple others, stand there pointlessly, or hold still for a coup de grace.
Suspect_Unusual
10-29-07, 08:19 PM If you can't force them to attack their friends, force them to get in the way. They can distract spellcasters, nonlethally grapple others, stand there pointlessly, or hold still for a coup de grace.

Which of course is certainly not an obviously suicidal Self-destructive command. :rolleyes:

Edited for precise wording.
Lycanthromancer
10-29-07, 08:41 PM Tell them to close their eyes and take a nap.

You are getting sleeeeeeepy...
CrimsonDeath
10-29-07, 08:50 PM Tell them to close their eyes and take a nap.

You are getting sleeeeeeepy...

On a battlefield? Seems pretty self-destructive.
Sagetim
10-29-07, 10:12 PM you could tell them to get drunk....or to 'drink this potion bottle' and have it be a mislabled bottle of black lotus extract. just use dominate to convince them that it's a cure light wounds potion...or..maybe a bull str potion. Being a fighter, they aren't going to have spellcraft ranks to id the damn thing until they drink it.
CrimsonDeath
10-29-07, 10:27 PM you could tell them to get drunk....or to 'drink this potion bottle' and have it be a mislabled bottle of black lotus extract. just use dominate to convince them that it's a cure light wounds potion...or..maybe a bull str potion. Being a fighter, they aren't going to have spellcraft ranks to id the damn thing until they drink it.

Eh, that's easier with Charm. With Dominate, they may still get a Sense Motive to see if you're telling the truth about what the potion is. With Charm, you're obviously best buddies with them, so there's no reason you'd lie.
Sagetim
10-29-07, 10:48 PM Eh, that's easier with Charm. With Dominate, they may still get a Sense Motive to see if you're telling the truth about what the potion is. With Charm, you're obviously best buddies with them, so there's no reason you'd lie.

or you could take them swimming in a pool of black lotus extract (create minor object) and ask them to jump in and test the 'water'. And if it's too cold that you'll get something to warm it up with.

oh wait...AH! False Sensory input...make them see water instead of black lotus extract.
DracoPhoenix
10-30-07, 08:14 AM 1) Tell them you're going to heal them. (so they need to "auto-fail" the save)

Not their fault if you bait & switch CMW for flesh to stone.

2) Get them out of combat quickly. Running for cover / down the hall to keep an eye out for re-enforcements isn't self destructive.

Coming back into a room 5 minutes later after you've patched your wounds and killed the others, might be though.

3) Get him to pass you his weapon so you can defend yourself. Not immediately destructive.

4) Tell him to defend you and stress that he's not to get himself killed in the process. That should bypass the "obviously suicidal" condition.

5) Get them to rugby tackle the nearest hostile - if you're lucky 1) the other guy gets knocked prone, 2) so does he. Get him to pin for as long as possible. Clean up after the others are dealt with.

6) Don't kill him post fight. Use him for trap bait / diversions / scouting. +2-4 pp will give you a mule for a day or two, just remember to pop dominate regularly until you can "dispose" of him. Which would be , "I want you to go to sleep now". CdG.

7) Pack Thrallherd and that power costs a base 1pp by Thrallherd 6, by L9 you're only agumenting for durations & DC. (total 3pp for 1 day. see #6.)

8) I could be wrong, but I didn't see a limit on the maximum number of dominated creatures. Work quickly and those four critters attacking you quickly become 4 mules before becoming 4 fur rugs. For a minimum of 12pp
(Might have something to do with the concentration duration, but that's a +2pp thing).

9) After combat's finished, if you don't attack them, "Go to sleep" is probably more viable, especially if you can pretend to be their friend for an hour to improve your disposition. Or otherwise convince them you're not a threat. Suggestion may help on this front too.
Surgo
10-30-07, 08:33 AM Dominate is still pretty useful even if you can never order your new followers to do anything...it's a save-or-die spell, and it has a Will save instead of a Fortitude save.
moebius00
10-30-07, 09:45 AM 1. I'd wait on taking Dominate until 8th or 9th level, when you can use the time augment to get your thrall for hours.

2. I've used dominate a couple of times in our game:

a. I Dominated a Frenzied Berserker during a battle with an orc village (1000 orcs. 1000!), which absolutely saved the party. It turned their greatest champion (who almost killed two of us) onto our side in a single action. I convinced him that "there's an illusion...humans are orcs, and orcs are humans" and told him to "kill the humans". If the Berserker didn't drop from his wounds, I would have had him for a couple of weeks.

b. I dominated an Ogre lieutenant, then had him give me intelligence on who his superiors were, what the next few rooms of the dungeon were like, what they knew about us, and what opposition we could expect to face. He told us about the red dragon a number of rooms away. If we hadn't known about that dragon and just turned the corner, he would have killed multiple party members in the first round. Because we knew what was coming, we went in buffed...and it still nearly killed two of us.

So Psionic Dominate = Super, super useful.
DracoPhoenix
10-30-07, 11:56 AM 1. I'd wait on taking Dominate until 8th or 9th level, when you can use the time augment to get your thrall for hours.

I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH.

Same with any other powers you get from that PrC.
CrimsonDeath
10-30-07, 12:10 PM I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH.

Same with any other powers you get from that PrC.

If you have access to retraining (PHB2) and your DM lets it work on powers known, you could retrain those powers as you level up, since the changes from retraining occur just before the level is gained.
AstralFireIX
10-30-07, 03:40 PM If you have access to retraining (PHB2) and your DM lets it work on powers known, you could retrain those powers as you level up, since the changes from retraining occur just before the level is gained.

I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH.

Same with any other powers you get from that PrC.

I'm not taking Thrallherd; it's simply too much of a pain for me to deal with cohorts, same reason I never summon anything. It tends to slow the game down. Most groups I play take a long time to do combat.

I ended up trading Psionic Dominate out for Control Body, with my DM allowing me to use some of Psionic Dominate's augments (namely, the extend duration and raise DC) on Control Body. I'm already going to be the party face, and I find it more fun to make my opponents move like ragdolls.

If anyone's curious, this is a gestalt game (in large part explaining the tendency towards monty haul among the rest of the players), and I'm playing a Psion (Telepath) 12||Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 7.
moebius00
10-30-07, 03:41 PM I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH.

Same with any other powers you get from that PrC.

Sorry...I wasn't being literal with the term "thrall". You could also use "dupes" or "involuntary employees".
DracoPhoenix
01-05-08, 05:51 PM <snip> Making your party rogue that you hate eat his own poop definitely trips the clause.

And yet, totally possible with false sensory input.... eww, but still. Eww.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AstralFireIX 10-29-07, 02:06 PM	I'm getting ready to join a game that is... well, pretty monty haul. The DM tries to limit it, but I'll be the first real talkative addition, so I'm not expecting a whole lot of intrigue and subtle manipulation type roleplay. One guy who can't keep his mouth shut doesn't really change much out of a group of six. So that said, how useful is Psionic Dominate for such a campaign? The annoying clauses of "can't take obviously self-destructive actions" and "gets a reroll at a +2 if they do anything against their nature (which is a LOT of things)" seem to really limit the usefulness.
Suspect_Unusual 10-29-07, 02:40 PM	It's best use is with things that are violent by nature, or at least wouldn't mind WHO it tears to shreds so long as it is allowed to, well, tear its opponent to shreds. Think lion, tiger, dire bear (oh my!), or non-henchmen ogres or trolls, or a vicious frost giant, or a Gray Render... Think big, stupid, and brutal.
Friendlyfish 10-29-07, 02:56 PM	It's very useful, especially if you're against evil foes. Evil foes don't mind killing other evil foes in combat, if that's what you're worried about. The "against nature" clause mostly comes into play when you're ordering a paladin to kill some orphans or something like that. If you're dominating something to do what it does everyday on your behalf you're pretty safe, and that includes most NPCs that you're going to run into. Monsters fight, only on your side. NPC wizards pen scrolls, make magic items, blast foes, and overthrow kingdoms only on your side. Monsters do NOT throw themselves down shafts or hold tea parties for orphans. Wizards do NOT eat their own familiars or stuff their wand of fireball into their mouth and mumble the command phrase. At the same time, you and the DM should come up with some ground rules because the "against nature" clause is very vague. Some idiot DMs really like to stealth nerf this power by invoking the clause after giving any order to a dominated thrall, and that's just not the intention. Alternatively, you can drop the clause entirely, because Dominate is entirely ABOUT making creatures do things that aren't in their nature, i.e. serving you. There's nothing natural about that, so it's almost oxymoronic in that sense. In practice, a good DM makes it pretty hard to trip the clause, and only when it's clear that you're abusing the party and townsfolk NPCs using it. Making your party rogue that you hate eat his own poop definitely trips the clause.
Suspect_Unusual 10-29-07, 03:05 PM	If you're really, really worried your DM is going to be tricksy about what is "against something's nature", ask the creature after you dominate it what the boundaries of its nature are. Unless your DM is being an extremely assinine person, you should be able to get a general feel of not only what the DM things "against their nature" means, but what it means specifically for each foe you dominate.
AstralFireIX 10-29-07, 03:54 PM	Alternatively, you can drop the clause entirely, because Dominate is entirely ABOUT making creatures do things that aren't in their nature, i.e. serving you. There's nothing natural about that, so it's almost oxymoronic in that sense. That's always been my point of view, and the same reason I'm afraid of the clause - almost everything you would want dominate to do is against their nature.
The_Shaman 10-29-07, 07:55 PM	It really depends on how your dm stretches it. Chances are that if you dominate a warrior, having him fight another warrior won't be against their nature. I'd say only suicidal commands or those that would pit the subject against a very close associate/friend would give them the bonus.
Disciple_of_Salsa 10-29-07, 08:08 PM	If you can't force them to attack their friends, force them to get in the way. They can distract spellcasters, nonlethally grapple others, stand there pointlessly, or hold still for a coup de grace.
Suspect_Unusual 10-29-07, 08:19 PM	If you can't force them to attack their friends, force them to get in the way. They can distract spellcasters, nonlethally grapple others, stand there pointlessly, or hold still for a coup de grace. Which of course is certainly not an obviously suicidal Self-destructive command. :rolleyes: Edited for precise wording.
Lycanthromancer 10-29-07, 08:41 PM	Tell them to close their eyes and take a nap. You are getting sleeeeeeepy...
CrimsonDeath 10-29-07, 08:50 PM	Tell them to close their eyes and take a nap. You are getting sleeeeeeepy... On a battlefield? Seems pretty self-destructive.
Sagetim 10-29-07, 10:12 PM	you could tell them to get drunk....or to 'drink this potion bottle' and have it be a mislabled bottle of black lotus extract. just use dominate to convince them that it's a cure light wounds potion...or..maybe a bull str potion. Being a fighter, they aren't going to have spellcraft ranks to id the damn thing until they drink it.
CrimsonDeath 10-29-07, 10:27 PM	you could tell them to get drunk....or to 'drink this potion bottle' and have it be a mislabled bottle of black lotus extract. just use dominate to convince them that it's a cure light wounds potion...or..maybe a bull str potion. Being a fighter, they aren't going to have spellcraft ranks to id the damn thing until they drink it. Eh, that's easier with Charm. With Dominate, they may still get a Sense Motive to see if you're telling the truth about what the potion is. With Charm, you're obviously best buddies with them, so there's no reason you'd lie.
Sagetim 10-29-07, 10:48 PM	Eh, that's easier with Charm. With Dominate, they may still get a Sense Motive to see if you're telling the truth about what the potion is. With Charm, you're obviously best buddies with them, so there's no reason you'd lie. or you could take them swimming in a pool of black lotus extract (create minor object) and ask them to jump in and test the 'water'. And if it's too cold that you'll get something to warm it up with. oh wait...AH! False Sensory input...make them see water instead of black lotus extract.
DracoPhoenix 10-30-07, 08:14 AM	1) Tell them you're going to heal them. (so they need to "auto-fail" the save) Not their fault if you bait & switch CMW for flesh to stone. 2) Get them out of combat quickly. Running for cover / down the hall to keep an eye out for re-enforcements isn't self destructive. Coming back into a room 5 minutes later after you've patched your wounds and killed the others, might be though. 3) Get him to pass you his weapon so you can defend yourself. Not immediately destructive. 4) Tell him to defend you and stress that he's not to get himself killed in the process. That should bypass the "obviously suicidal" condition. 5) Get them to rugby tackle the nearest hostile - if you're lucky 1) the other guy gets knocked prone, 2) so does he. Get him to pin for as long as possible. Clean up after the others are dealt with. 6) Don't kill him post fight. Use him for trap bait / diversions / scouting. +2-4 pp will give you a mule for a day or two, just remember to pop dominate regularly until you can "dispose" of him. Which would be , "I want you to go to sleep now". CdG. 7) Pack Thrallherd and that power costs a base 1pp by Thrallherd 6, by L9 you're only agumenting for durations & DC. (total 3pp for 1 day. see #6.) 8) I could be wrong, but I didn't see a limit on the maximum number of dominated creatures. Work quickly and those four critters attacking you quickly become 4 mules before becoming 4 fur rugs. For a minimum of 12pp (Might have something to do with the concentration duration, but that's a +2pp thing). 9) After combat's finished, if you don't attack them, "Go to sleep" is probably more viable, especially if you can pretend to be their friend for an hour to improve your disposition. Or otherwise convince them you're not a threat. Suggestion may help on this front too.
Surgo 10-30-07, 08:33 AM	Dominate is still pretty useful even if you can never order your new followers to do anything...it's a save-or-die spell, and it has a Will save instead of a Fortitude save.
moebius00 10-30-07, 09:45 AM	1. I'd wait on taking Dominate until 8th or 9th level, when you can use the time augment to get your thrall for hours. 2. I've used dominate a couple of times in our game: a. I Dominated a Frenzied Berserker during a battle with an orc village (1000 orcs. 1000!), which absolutely saved the party. It turned their greatest champion (who almost killed two of us) onto our side in a single action. I convinced him that "there's an illusion...humans are orcs, and orcs are humans" and told him to "kill the humans". If the Berserker didn't drop from his wounds, I would have had him for a couple of weeks. b. I dominated an Ogre lieutenant, then had him give me intelligence on who his superiors were, what the next few rooms of the dungeon were like, what they knew about us, and what opposition we could expect to face. He told us about the red dragon a number of rooms away. If we hadn't known about that dragon and just turned the corner, he would have killed multiple party members in the first round. Because we knew what was coming, we went in buffed...and it still nearly killed two of us. So Psionic Dominate = Super, super useful.
DracoPhoenix 10-30-07, 11:56 AM	1. I'd wait on taking Dominate until 8th or 9th level, when you can use the time augment to get your thrall for hours. I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH. Same with any other powers you get from that PrC.
CrimsonDeath 10-30-07, 12:10 PM	I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH. Same with any other powers you get from that PrC. If you have access to retraining (PHB2) and your DM lets it work on powers known, you could retrain those powers as you level up, since the changes from retraining occur just before the level is gained.
AstralFireIX 10-30-07, 03:40 PM	If you have access to retraining (PHB2) and your DM lets it work on powers known, you could retrain those powers as you level up, since the changes from retraining occur just before the level is gained. I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH. Same with any other powers you get from that PrC. I'm not taking Thrallherd; it's simply too much of a pain for me to deal with cohorts, same reason I never summon anything. It tends to slow the game down. Most groups I play take a long time to do combat. I ended up trading Psionic Dominate out for Control Body, with my DM allowing me to use some of Psionic Dominate's augments (namely, the extend duration and raise DC) on Control Body. I'm already going to be the party face, and I find it more fun to make my opponents move like ragdolls. If anyone's curious, this is a gestalt game (in large part explaining the tendency towards monty haul among the rest of the players), and I'm playing a Psion (Telepath) 12\|\|Wilder 5/Anarchic Initiate 7.
moebius00 10-30-07, 03:41 PM	I'd reform it for something else 15 minutes before you get it for free with TH. Same with any other powers you get from that PrC. Sorry...I wasn't being literal with the term "thrall". You could also use "dupes" or "involuntary employees".
DracoPhoenix 01-05-08, 05:51 PM	<snip> Making your party rogue that you hate eat his own poop definitely trips the clause. And yet, totally possible with false sensory input.... eww, but still. Eww.