Psionic Duals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic Duals? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
psychorabbit
11-11-07, 12:27 AM Hey Folks,

Can anyone recommend any strategies for having a psionic dual between two telepaths?

-PsychoRabbit
InkBlot
11-11-07, 01:35 AM Well, if your foe has a lot of those nifty immediate action defensive powers, then I know one strategy to help. Use a lot of low-cost little powers, so that you trick your foe into wasting his immediate action to negate little things. Trick him into sweating the small stuff. This should work better if you have quicken power or schism, as you can quicken/schism a sacrificial power that your foe will surely negate, and then follow up with a big bang that he can't do nothing about - since he already used his immediate action.

edit: Are you looking for general advice, or advice for a specific character in a specific situation. If the later, then it would help people develop strategies if we had more information (e.g., level, race, setting, houserules, wealth, stats, and everything you know about your opponent).
Tedronai
11-12-07, 03:06 AM Yeah, go with a Psion (Telepath) - Psion Uncarnate. Take Burrowing Power.

Hide in the floor/wall/ceiling/whatever. Manifest Burrowing Touchsight. Kill the enemy without them ever having the opportunity to even target you.
InkBlot
11-12-07, 03:10 AM Don't bother with psion uncarnate. It's not neccessary for that tactic, and you lose a lot of manifester levels. Just use clairvoyant sense, with expanded knowledge if you need to. Hide behind the wall, instead of in it.

If you have Complete Psionic, you could use Transdimensional Power instead of Burrowing Power, and hide on the ethereal plane.
AntiDjinn
11-12-07, 04:08 AM It depends on what you mean by "duel", sparring or trying to kill each other.

If you want something that smacks of the mental plane fight between Prof X and the Shadow King, then look into the Mindscapes psionic combat system in Hyperconscious (it is 3rd party, published by Malhavoc Press, but written by Bruce Cordell, author of the XPH). With that system, a fight takes place in a mental arena simultaneous with the fight in the physical world. For a friendly duel, combatants could use the Mindscape combat alone and just agree to a certain win condition (the one who has won the most rounds out of 9, for example).

If you are talking about a telepath encountering another as a foe in a dungeon and wondering how best to take him down, it is often best not to rely on telepathy. For two characters of similar manifester level, with good Will saves to go at it with Will save or be hosed effects can be an exercise in futility; it is possible one or both will run out of points or the fight will be ended by the actions of the rest of the party before either one is affected. If both have Schism up (and if both know it, then they will always have it up in a psion vs. psion fight) then Compulsions are pretty much going to fail (each rarely fails a Will save, and almost never two in a row). If either have Personal Mind Blank up, then using a mental effect is a waste of points and an action.

So while your foe is preparing to launch a mental assault, consider rending his d4-for-hits physical body limb from limb. Astral Construct often gets the job done nicely; it is immune to Mind-Affecting and a large number of bad statuses, so putting one in a telepath's face is a good plan. Any number of other physical powers, including direct blasts can get the job done; if you are doing d6 per level and he only has d4 per level of hit points then odd are he hits the floor sooner than he would have if you had assaulted his mind. Sure, a telepath could also have formidable physical defenses, but if he was expecting to go up against another telepath he probably didn't manifest Vigor or Force Screen, or such.

Of course there are telepathic powers that are good to use against another telepath, if he doesn't have MB up and you have the action to spare. Inflict Pain gives him -2 to attack rolls and skill checks (as in Concentration checks to manifest powers in combat) even if he makes the save. It is a good one to have your Schism mind deliver since the penalty is not strong enough to be worth an action from your primary mind. Ego Whip always does some Cha damage even if the Will save is made. If your opponent is depending on Damp Power as his primary defense, the switch to a 1d4 Ego Whip (3 points, don't augment it) or 1d4 Ego Whip with Link Power: another 1d4 Ego Whip. This forces your foe to pay for Damp Power every round (or just let all the damage through) and he still takes at least 1 point of Cha damage. Special note should be made of Mindwipe. It is Mind-Affecting, but it calls for a Fortitude save. This makes it a caster/manifester hoser. If you have the opportunity (and are certain the target doesn't have Redopsi up) then open with Mindwipe. The -2 to all saves (the subject takes 2 negative levels) really opens up your options for using powers on subsequent rounds (including more Mindwipe; you can kill with this power). That the subject looses access to one power of his highest level for each negative level greatly hinders him in shooting back; odds are, his two highest level powers are his current best effects.
Zylo_Drizzt
11-12-07, 08:15 AM I think what he means is a battle in the mind like in the dark sun books. There ar rules in that in a book called "Hyper Concious". Its author is Bruce R Cordell. I think mongoose published it but I am not certain on that.

[Edit] I guess I should read the posts a little closer because AntiDjinn beat me to it.
Bacris
11-12-07, 11:50 AM I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions.

As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself.
psychorabbit
11-13-07, 01:50 AM Thanks Guys! Those are excellent suggestions! The dual between Professor X and the Shadow King is exactly what I had in mind. Can anyone summarize how the Mindscape's duals work?

-PsychoRabbit
CrimsonDeath
11-13-07, 11:33 AM I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions.

As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself.

Although that does make it an excellent way to conduct a nonlethal duel (or at least a convenient one), assuming everyone in the mindscape can tell who won each round. You have three psionic characters: Two who want to duel, and one referee. They agree on a duration, then go into a mindscape together. The two duelists duel, and the referee decides which one held the advantage longer.
TheKeyofE
11-13-07, 04:37 PM I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions.

As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself.

I was actually thinking of going the other direction. I was going to keep the mechanics of Mindscapes but take away the flavor, make it more of a "contest of wills" rather than a "battle in the plane of your mind." It would be similar to, but more powerful than, the Duel of Wills from ToB.

I was reading something on the intarwebs that gave me the idea (had not yet looked at Hyperconscious at the time). I wanted a mental battle to reflect and influence the physical battle. I was going to rework the psionic combat modes so each character got a free use of one attack mode each round, and change the effect of all the modes so they're not so powerful.

But then I read Hyperconscious, and Mindscape Combat was exactly the mechanics I was looking for. Except that I wasn't so keen on the flavor (specifically, the way the mindscape just instantly pops up). So I would keep the mechanics, but change the flavor from "you fight in your mind and it gives you bonuses" to "you exert your force of will on everyone around you and it gives you bonuses."

But now that I think about it more, your idea has merit as well. I'm reminded of in the movie HERO, when Jet Li's character fights Sky and Broken Sword in the plane of their imaginations.
Bacris
11-13-07, 05:02 PM Right :)

There's the option of "something that affects an actual fight" - but I was thinking more of taking the Mindscapes system and making it its own "combat" system...

But, the trick is to not introduce the broken-ness of 3.0 psionic combat, because that was just fugly - without crippling it so only people who are actually trained in it can do it... Probably won't have anything really concrete for a while (too much else going on atm).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
psychorabbit 11-11-07, 12:27 AM	Hey Folks, Can anyone recommend any strategies for having a psionic dual between two telepaths? -PsychoRabbit
InkBlot 11-11-07, 01:35 AM	Well, if your foe has a lot of those nifty immediate action defensive powers, then I know one strategy to help. Use a lot of low-cost little powers, so that you trick your foe into wasting his immediate action to negate little things. Trick him into sweating the small stuff. This should work better if you have quicken power or schism, as you can quicken/schism a sacrificial power that your foe will surely negate, and then follow up with a big bang that he can't do nothing about - since he already used his immediate action. edit: Are you looking for general advice, or advice for a specific character in a specific situation. If the later, then it would help people develop strategies if we had more information (e.g., level, race, setting, houserules, wealth, stats, and everything you know about your opponent).
Tedronai 11-12-07, 03:06 AM	Yeah, go with a Psion (Telepath) - Psion Uncarnate. Take Burrowing Power. Hide in the floor/wall/ceiling/whatever. Manifest Burrowing Touchsight. Kill the enemy without them ever having the opportunity to even target you.
InkBlot 11-12-07, 03:10 AM	Don't bother with psion uncarnate. It's not neccessary for that tactic, and you lose a lot of manifester levels. Just use clairvoyant sense, with expanded knowledge if you need to. Hide behind the wall, instead of in it. If you have Complete Psionic, you could use Transdimensional Power instead of Burrowing Power, and hide on the ethereal plane.
AntiDjinn 11-12-07, 04:08 AM	It depends on what you mean by "duel", sparring or trying to kill each other. If you want something that smacks of the mental plane fight between Prof X and the Shadow King, then look into the Mindscapes psionic combat system in Hyperconscious (it is 3rd party, published by Malhavoc Press, but written by Bruce Cordell, author of the XPH). With that system, a fight takes place in a mental arena simultaneous with the fight in the physical world. For a friendly duel, combatants could use the Mindscape combat alone and just agree to a certain win condition (the one who has won the most rounds out of 9, for example). If you are talking about a telepath encountering another as a foe in a dungeon and wondering how best to take him down, it is often best not to rely on telepathy. For two characters of similar manifester level, with good Will saves to go at it with Will save or be hosed effects can be an exercise in futility; it is possible one or both will run out of points or the fight will be ended by the actions of the rest of the party before either one is affected. If both have Schism up (and if both know it, then they will always have it up in a psion vs. psion fight) then Compulsions are pretty much going to fail (each rarely fails a Will save, and almost never two in a row). If either have Personal Mind Blank up, then using a mental effect is a waste of points and an action. So while your foe is preparing to launch a mental assault, consider rending his d4-for-hits physical body limb from limb. Astral Construct often gets the job done nicely; it is immune to Mind-Affecting and a large number of bad statuses, so putting one in a telepath's face is a good plan. Any number of other physical powers, including direct blasts can get the job done; if you are doing d6 per level and he only has d4 per level of hit points then odd are he hits the floor sooner than he would have if you had assaulted his mind. Sure, a telepath could also have formidable physical defenses, but if he was expecting to go up against another telepath he probably didn't manifest Vigor or Force Screen, or such. Of course there are telepathic powers that are good to use against another telepath, if he doesn't have MB up and you have the action to spare. Inflict Pain gives him -2 to attack rolls and skill checks (as in Concentration checks to manifest powers in combat) even if he makes the save. It is a good one to have your Schism mind deliver since the penalty is not strong enough to be worth an action from your primary mind. Ego Whip always does some Cha damage even if the Will save is made. If your opponent is depending on Damp Power as his primary defense, the switch to a 1d4 Ego Whip (3 points, don't augment it) or 1d4 Ego Whip with Link Power: another 1d4 Ego Whip. This forces your foe to pay for Damp Power every round (or just let all the damage through) and he still takes at least 1 point of Cha damage. Special note should be made of Mindwipe. It is Mind-Affecting, but it calls for a Fortitude save. This makes it a caster/manifester hoser. If you have the opportunity (and are certain the target doesn't have Redopsi up) then open with Mindwipe. The -2 to all saves (the subject takes 2 negative levels) really opens up your options for using powers on subsequent rounds (including more Mindwipe; you can kill with this power). That the subject looses access to one power of his highest level for each negative level greatly hinders him in shooting back; odds are, his two highest level powers are his current best effects.
Zylo_Drizzt 11-12-07, 08:15 AM	I think what he means is a battle in the mind like in the dark sun books. There ar rules in that in a book called "Hyper Concious". Its author is Bruce R Cordell. I think mongoose published it but I am not certain on that. [Edit] I guess I should read the posts a little closer because AntiDjinn beat me to it.
Bacris 11-12-07, 11:50 AM	I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions. As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself.
psychorabbit 11-13-07, 01:50 AM	Thanks Guys! Those are excellent suggestions! The dual between Professor X and the Shadow King is exactly what I had in mind. Can anyone summarize how the Mindscape's duals work? -PsychoRabbit
CrimsonDeath 11-13-07, 11:33 AM	I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions. As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself. Although that does make it an excellent way to conduct a nonlethal duel (or at least a convenient one), assuming everyone in the mindscape can tell who won each round. You have three psionic characters: Two who want to duel, and one referee. They agree on a duration, then go into a mindscape together. The two duelists duel, and the referee decides which one held the advantage longer.
TheKeyofE 11-13-07, 04:37 PM	I've been thinking about expanding the Mindscapes system to have an actual "combat", rather than the bonuses it gives to other actions. As-is, Mindscapes works great, and I've had a lot of fun with it in a couple campaigns, but is more of an add-on to an encounter, rather than an encounter in and of itself. I was actually thinking of going the other direction. I was going to keep the mechanics of Mindscapes but take away the flavor, make it more of a "contest of wills" rather than a "battle in the plane of your mind." It would be similar to, but more powerful than, the Duel of Wills from ToB. I was reading something on the intarwebs that gave me the idea (had not yet looked at Hyperconscious at the time). I wanted a mental battle to reflect and influence the physical battle. I was going to rework the psionic combat modes so each character got a free use of one attack mode each round, and change the effect of all the modes so they're not so powerful. But then I read Hyperconscious, and Mindscape Combat was exactly the mechanics I was looking for. Except that I wasn't so keen on the flavor (specifically, the way the mindscape just instantly pops up). So I would keep the mechanics, but change the flavor from "you fight in your mind and it gives you bonuses" to "you exert your force of will on everyone around you and it gives you bonuses." But now that I think about it more, your idea has merit as well. I'm reminded of in the movie HERO, when Jet Li's character fights Sky and Broken Sword in the plane of their imaginations.
Bacris 11-13-07, 05:02 PM	Right :) There's the option of "something that affects an actual fight" - but I was thinking more of taking the Mindscapes system and making it its own "combat" system... But, the trick is to not introduce the broken-ness of 3.0 psionic combat, because that was just fugly - without crippling it so only people who are actually trained in it can do it... Probably won't have anything really concrete for a while (too much else going on atm).