Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 08-24-07, 11:26 AM	Ok, I'm getting a lot of goodness out of vigor (at 1st level) but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly and I want to get ready for being the healer soon. For ease of examples lets say I currently have 10 hit points. Example 1: Vigor, top or bottom? I cast vigor, I have 10 +5 temporary. I take 5 damage. Vigor wears off. How many hit points do I have left? 5 or 10? Does the damage take effect when the spell wears off or is it deducted separately? Example 2: Same as before, but now with more I cast vigor. I have 10 + 5 temporary hit points. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. All the vigors wear off. Am I dead? This would be answered by the above question as well, just wanted to restate it. Example 3: Vigor and share pain Jump up to 3rd level, I learn share pain. I cast share pain on ally (we both have 20 hit points). I cast vigor. I gain 10 hit points. I take 20 damage. Does this damage first affect the temporary hit points or is it split first? I'm saying it splits first and then applies. So it's either we both take 10 damage or we both take 5. (20/2 -10 or 20 - 10/2). I'm leaning towards us both taking 10, but both taking 5 would be great. :P Example 4: Empathic transfer, share pain, and vigor We've got share pain up. We've both got 20 hit points, my ally took 10 damage. I cast empathic transfer. He heals 10 damage, I take 5, he takes 2 from share pain?. I don't think that this is right, because empathic transfer isn't "an attack that deals hit point damage", just wanted to be sure. Also I had vigor up, so I had 5 temporary hit points. Does the empathic transfer take hit points "from the top" (from the temporary first) or "from the bottom" (from real hit points first). Thanks in advance!
Bacris 08-24-07, 11:34 AM	Ok, I'm getting a lot of goodness out of vigor (at 1st level) but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly and I want to get ready for being the healer soon. I'll try to help! For ease of examples lets say I currently have 10 hit points. Nice round number, got it! Example 1: Vigor, top or bottom? I cast vigor, I have 10 +5 temporary. I take 5 damage. Vigor wears off. How many hit points do I have left? 5 or 10? Does the damage take effect when the spell wears off or is it deducted separately? 10 - Vigor's temporary hit points are deducted first. Example 2: Same as before, but now with more I cast vigor. I have 10 + 5 temporary hit points. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. All the vigors wear off. Am I dead? This would be answered by the above question as well, just wanted to restate it. Same as above - you have 10 left. Example 3: Vigor and share pain Jump up to 3rd level, I learn share pain. I cast share pain on ally (we both have 20 hit points). I cast vigor. I gain 10 hit points. I take 20 damage. Does this damage first affect the temporary hit points or is it split first? I'm saying it splits first and then applies. So it's either we both take 10 damage or we both take 5. (20/2 -10 or 20 - 10/2). I'm leaning towards us both taking 10, but both taking 5 would be great. :P This is a matter of timing - you don't actually take the damage until after share pain has gone into effect. You take 20/2 - or 10 hit points. Your vigor was 10 hit points. Your vigor is deducted first, so you're left with your 10 hit points. Example 4: Empathic transfer, share pain, and vigor We've got share pain up. We've both got 20 hit points, my ally took 10 damage. I cast empathic transfer. He heals 10 damage, I take 5, he takes 2 from share pain?. I don't think that this is right, because empathic transfer isn't "an attack that deals hit point damage", just wanted to be sure. Also I had vigor up, so I had 5 temporary hit points. Does the empathic transfer take hit points "from the top" (from the temporary first) or "from the bottom" (from real hit points first). Temporary Hit Points aren't counted toward your hit point pool - i.e., you can't heal damage dealt to temporary hit points, nor can you "transfer" damage dealt to temporary hit points. So you'd only transfer "real" damage dealt to your actual hit point total - anything deducted from temporary hit points would be ignored. As for damage dealt from empathic transfer - you're absolutely right. Share Pain is pretty specific "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder." Empathic Transfer is not an attack. Now, damage from empathic transfer is damage, and vigor states that damage dealt it subtracted from it, first. It is different than damage reduction / regeneration, so damage dealt from empathic transfer WOULD be deducted from vigor's temporary hit points first. Thanks in advance! Welcome!
Fafnir 08-24-07, 11:35 AM	Damage is split first, then applied to temporay HP, then if any remains, to normal HP. Multiple applications of Vigor do not stack (for ex. Vigor, +10 temp HP, I take 3 damage, I have 7 temp HP. I cast Vigor again, I have now 10 temp HP again). This should be enough to anwer all your questions but the last, which I'm unsure about. EDIT: Ninja'ed by Bacris. Who did a better job at it, too.:pbbbtt:
Eldritch_Lord 08-24-07, 11:35 AM	Ok, I'm getting a lot of goodness out of vigor (at 1st level) but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly and I want to get ready for being the healer soon. For ease of examples lets say I currently have 10 hit points. Example 1: Vigor, top or bottom? I cast vigor, I have 10 +5 temporary. I take 5 damage. Vigor wears off. How many hit points do I have left? 5 or 10? Does the damage take effect when the spell wears off or is it deducted separately? Example 2: Same as before, but now with more I cast vigor. I have 10 + 5 temporary hit points. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. I cast vigor. I take 5 damage. All the vigors wear off. Am I dead? This would be answered by the above question as well, just wanted to restate it. Temporary hit points are always lost first; once they are lost, that's it, they don't deduct the same amount from your actual HP once the effect wears off. Only HP gained from an increase in Constitution will go away when the effect wears off. Example 3: Vigor and share pain Jump up to 3rd level, I learn share pain. I cast share pain on ally (we both have 20 hit points). I cast vigor. I gain 10 hit points. I take 20 damage. Does this damage first affect the temporary hit points or is it split first? I'm saying it splits first and then applies. So it's either we both take 10 damage or we both take 5. (20/2 -10 or 20 - 10/2). I'm leaning towards us both taking 10, but both taking 5 would be great. :P The damage splits first. Share pain does not take into account your current HP; it splits it between you and the other creature and doesn't care about anything else. Then, when you take your share, you lose your temporary HP first, as normal. Example 4: Empathic transfer, share pain, and vigor We've got share pain up. We've both got 20 hit points, my ally took 10 damage. I cast empathic transfer. He heals 10 damage, I take 5, he takes 2 from share pain?. I don't think that this is right, because empathic transfer isn't "an attack that deals hit point damage", just wanted to be sure. Also I had vigor up, so I had 5 temporary hit points. Does the empathic transfer take hit points "from the top" (from the temporary first) or "from the bottom" (from real hit points first). Empathic transfer isn't considered an attack, because (A) you're manifesting it yourself and (B) you're volutarily taking the damage. If you were the target of hostile empathic transfer, however, you would split the damage. And, since vigor specifies "damage" without requiring an attack, you would deduct the damage from your temporary HP. Thanks in advance! Not a problem. EDIT: I see two others posted while I was responding, making mine superfluous. Oh, well, three times the assistance, I guess. :D
SlanderPanic 08-24-07, 11:38 AM	You don't cast anything when you're a psion.
EvilVegan 08-24-07, 11:50 AM	You don't cast anything when you're a psion.You're right, it was all a trick question! Just kidding. Semantic pointlessness aside, thanks for the help everyone. Much clearer!
Bacris 08-24-07, 11:57 AM	EDIT: Ninja'ed by Bacris. Who did a better job at it, too.:pbbbtt: :) I R win! EDIT: I see two others posted while I was responding, making mine superfluous. Oh, well, three times the assistance, I guess. :D One of the reasons I like this board - while you may get terse responses for questions in the FAQ, we're all usually pretty helpful.
SlanderPanic 08-24-07, 12:15 PM	Semantic pointlessness aside Yes, you're right. It's absolutely pointless to point out that manifesting a power and casting a spell are not at all the same thing. Absolutely right.
EvilVegan 08-24-07, 12:49 PM	Yes, you're right. It's absolutely pointless to point out that manifesting a power and casting a spell are not at all the same thing. Absolutely right. It is pointless for this discussion. Have fun trolling!
munin 08-24-07, 01:40 PM	EDIT: Ninja'ed by Bacris... EDIT: I see two others posted while I was responding... The Preview Post button will also show you posts which have appeared since you started to reply. Not sure if it's available in all forms of replying though.
Bacris 08-24-07, 02:25 PM	It's not available in the Quick Reply - but is in the others.
Nom 08-25-07, 06:56 AM	Example 4: Empathic transfer, share pain, and vigor We've got share pain up. We've both got 20 hit points, my ally took 10 damage. I cast empathic transfer. He heals 10 damage, I take 5, he takes 2 from share pain?. I don't think that this is right, because empathic transfer isn't "an attack that deals hit point damage", just wanted to be sure. Also I had vigor up, so I had 5 temporary hit points. Does the empathic transfer take hit points "from the top" (from the temporary first) or "from the bottom" (from real hit points first). Temporary Hit Points aren't counted toward your hit point pool - i.e., you can't heal damage dealt to temporary hit points, nor can you "transfer" damage dealt to temporary hit points. So you'd only transfer "real" damage dealt to your actual hit point total - anything deducted from temporary hit points would be ignored. As for damage dealt from empathic transfer - you're absolutely right. Share Pain is pretty specific "You take half damage from all attacks that deal hit point damage to you, and the subject takes the remainder." Empathic Transfer is not an attack. Now, damage from empathic transfer is damage, and vigor states that damage dealt it subtracted from it, first. It is different than damage reduction / regeneration, so damage dealt from empathic transfer WOULD be deducted from vigor's temporary hit points first.I agree with the previous answers, but not part of this one. Damage is damage. While you can't heal temporary hit points, they exist as "hit points" and damage is applied to them. If you would take 20 damage while share pain and vigor are in effect, then you take 10 and your ally takes 10. Temporary hit points aren't treated any differently to real hit points until you actually lose hit points (at which point you lose the temporary hit points first). Note also that share pain doesn't say "half of the damage you take ..." but that "attacks deal half damage to you ...". The half that the other party takes is never assessed against your hit point total, and vice versa. I agree with the empathic transfer / share pain loop - it doesn't loop. Damage transferred to you from share pain or empathic transfer will lose temporary hit points first as normal. However, if someone else had temporary hit points and lost some, you couldn't use empathic transfer to put them back; unlike real hit points, temporary hit points simply cease to exist once lost.