Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tealgorthian 08-02-07, 04:58 PM	I'm playing a Shaper in a simple game meant as an intro to D&D for my kids, so it's not like I am going to super optimize this character or anything. But. I just hit 2nd level. I was reading around the boards about powers, and I see people extolling the virtues Minor Creation. But.. WHY? I mean, you are creating, basically, wood or vines. What's so good about it? I can see why Major Creation, Fabricate and True Creation are nice, but I just.. don't get Minor Creation. To make anything useful (like a bridge) takes 1 minute, and if the thing is wide enough, you either have to make it very narrow, our out of freaking balsa wood. What have you Minor Create'd? Right now, I am tossing up between this and Psionic Grease or maybe even Vigor. Currently I have Astral Construct, Crystal Shard, Entangling Ectoplasm, and Syntheste.
Tempest Stormwind 08-02-07, 05:21 PM	1 power point to create countless objects which many adventurer would normally be bogged down with -- the simplest examples include rope, ladders, poles, spikes, sacks, tents and possibly sails -- is worth it alone. Travel light. Hell, travel in comfort by making cotton-filled matresses in the middle of the wilderness; if you're level 4 or higher and have Extend Power they last all night. (I can't recall the last time my shaper complained about sleeping on the ground.) Extend to that the numerous interesting plant-based material out there -- ranging from coffee and tea to morphine (an extract from opium, itself an extract from poppies; certain other drugs or drug sources such as coca and tobacco can also be made even if they have less of a use for an adventurer) and mighty, plant-based poisons (i.e. the DC 20, 3d6 Con / 3d6 Con Contact poison called black lotus extract), and you've got a lot of chemical uses as well. In theory, you could even create more refined plant-based objects, such as amber (while sap is probably vegetable matter in the animal/vegetable/mineral sense, amber (fossilized sap) might count as a mineral), pitch resin (flammable, and also happens to make passable caulking; many historical ships were made this way), or possibly even oil (and if that's a no go, corn oil makes a ready substitute. It's not as concentrated a source of energy as traditional oil, but it's definitely plant-based. Go green - Go Minor Creation.). There's a lot more that can be done with it; Lokiyn is the man to ask, though. (In fact, I wouldn't have thought of morphine if he hadn't suggested it) but I've used most of these before. The fact that a shaper can do all this from level 1, and only needs to spend 1 power point for it (as opposed to the equivalent spell which is 4th level) is just gravy. This game is meant to teach D&D to your kids, right? Use Minor Creation to teach them that what they learn in school -- such as simple biology, chemistry, and physics -- is applicable anywhere, and that D&D allows you to do anything you can imagine as opposed to anything the designers imagined. Think of that power as the psionic MacGyver.
Lokiyn 08-02-07, 06:24 PM	Although the Majority of Minor creation uses are out of combat, involving the production of tools or other materials to act as enablers. Minor creation with the addition of link power (cpsi, allows you to use minor creation in 2 rounds rather than 10) has many possible in combat uses as well. For a simple example. http://lokiyn.pbwiki.com/f/Dome.bmp Take a character that is an average height, roughly 5'8" Round that up to 6' So at level two, using Link power you could in theory generate a hemispherical structure that is a latticework of holes 6 inches in radius to produce holes with an area of .78 square feet which is less than the minimum needed for line of effect, producing a sort of wooden shield that you can see out of but remain untargeted by most things needing line of effect, or with less than a 10 foot reach. Now (very) roughly the math is you are losing about 66% of your volume in the hemisphere to these holes. (its a little more complicated, but rough estimates are best to keep the game simple. (13x13 inch square - 6 inch radius hole)= (169-113= 56 => 56/169= ~33%) Its all very rough, but i like to keep the math down to simple algebra and geometry for ease of play and simplicity. Now the hardest wood in dnd with statistics is Bronzewood from eberron, with a hardness of 10 and a hp value of 20 hp per inch of thickness. Diameter Radius (Ft) Sphere Hemisphere 12 6 904.77 452.38 5.975 893.51 446.75 Volume Inches 5.631337556 0.3 Volume after 33% 1.877112519 Caster Level 2 Dome hp 6hp Hardness 10 At this level the dome is immune to "most" attacks, as at this low level most mobs won't deal 10 points of damage in a hit to overcome hardness. The real trick is to place small doors with a craft check into the dome so that you can open up holes larger than 1 foot to manifest from. So your round works like this. Move action => open door Standard Action => Manifest power Psicrystals action => Close hatch And thats just "one" possible tactic with minor creation. With the right combinations it is possible to use minor creation in many creative ways. Another example is, Call item =Linked=> Minor creation. to summon Sprayer(Round 1)=> Pure Grain Alcohol (Round 2) With a source of fire, the sprayer creates a 1d6 line of fire 10 feet long, and lasts three shots. (not really time effecient but its a fun trick.) In This Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=747757) i listed out some stats and tables for the use of minor creation. For a game introducing dnd to children you could use it in all sorts of ways, from creating lures to distract lions or tigers, to creating insect repellents to hold vermin at bay. A bunk to sleep on or a coracle to float down a river on. Light in the dark or surgar for treats, the abilities are limited only by the immagination of the user. I would even encourage the children to think up thinks for you to create, you would be amazed at how much children will "work" researching things for something they consider a game.
Bacris 08-02-07, 07:00 PM	Gah, between Seer, Shaper, and Egoist, I don't know what to make my next psion! I love when Tempest and especially Lokiyn bust out on using Minor Creation!
Tealgorthian 08-02-07, 07:03 PM	Okay, I am big enough to admit when I am wrong. And I was -so- wrong. I'll take the power and play with it :) I'm mostly trying to teach my kids that while blowing stuff up is impressive, a spellcaster can be super effective with minimal damage spells. I took Crystal Shard because, well, I love flinging Crystals at people ;) So.. want happens if you make something, and eat it? Does it count as food? Or does it just poof out of your stomach when the Power ends? Thanks for pointing out it doesn't suck ;)
unusualsuspect 08-02-07, 07:11 PM	I was under the assumption that Link Power allows you to not actually perform the action of manifesting the second power, but the time it took to acually manifest the power was the same. For example, Link Power with Psionic Identify as the second power would still take 24 hours, but you wouldn't have to use actions to manifest the power. Am I wrong? :confused:
InkBlot 08-03-07, 01:27 AM	The only thing wrong here is Link Power itself. It's such a poorly written and poorly concieved feat. I find it hard to imagine any competent DM allowing it, without entirely rewriting it.
Jhaelen 08-04-07, 06:13 PM	Extend to that the numerous interesting plant-based material out there -- ranging from coffee and tea to morphine (an extract from opium, itself an extract from poppies; certain other drugs or drug sources such as coca and tobacco can also be made even if they have less of a use for an adventurer) and mighty, plant-based poisons (i.e. the DC 20, 3d6 Con / 3d6 Con Contact poison called black lotus extract), and you've got a lot of chemical uses as well.It's arguable if you can really create any of these with this power. IMHO, it's obviously against the intent. Even if it was covered by the power, there's a problem: You need to succeed on an appropriate skill check to create anything like this. Which means that a lot of things will effectively become impossible to create (incidentally covering all options that would 'break' the power...).
unusualsuspect 08-04-07, 07:58 PM	Given that Craft isn't a trained only skill (if memory serves), and given that the Craft DCs for a lot of these things wouldn't be all that high (Please don't tell me you think the Craft DC for the Holey Hemisphere(tm) that Lokiyn proposed is more difficult, or even AS difficult, as a suit of platemail? Since a psion is going to have a high Intelligence anyway, said psion is likely to have a decent modifier to ANY craft check, and worse comes to worse, will probably have about a 50% chance of success (unless it's something particularly difficult, like the poison Tempest mentioned, which would put it out of the reach of those that don't invest the skillpoints. Oh noes! My shaper had to spend 3 power points before he successfully crafted his 3d6 con damage poison! :P
Jaid 08-04-07, 10:41 PM	It's arguable if you can really create any of these with this power. IMHO, it's obviously against the intent. Even if it was covered by the power, there's a problem: You need to succeed on an appropriate skill check to create anything like this. Which means that a lot of things will effectively become impossible to create (incidentally covering all options that would 'break' the power...).why would it be 'impossible'? even if it did, with a sufficiently high skill check result, impossible doesn't exist =P sure, it requires that you take a few skills. but honestly, opium at least (iirc) has existed for a long time. i mean, like, a *really* long time. and why wouldn't it be intended for the power? oh noes, the psion is acting intelligently!! quick, force him to buy every single energy power instead! [/sarcasm] seriously, it's a plant product. minor creation lets you create plant products. therefore, minor creation allows you to create opium, or morphine, etc, provided you can make the skill check (and admittedly, for some of those things -- especially the poisons -- you're looking at a hefty skill check in an uncommon craft skill)
BloodSpill 08-04-07, 11:12 PM	Or does it just poof out of your stomach when the Power ends? Definitely not a substitute for food.
InkBlot 08-04-07, 11:18 PM	It's arguable if you can really create any of these with this power. IMHO, it's obviously against the intent. Even if it was covered by the power, there's a problem: You need to succeed on an appropriate skill check to create anything like this. Which means that a lot of things will effectively become impossible to create (incidentally covering all options that would 'break' the power...). Yes. Those uses definitely fall under the category of "clear it with your DM first." Maybe not coffee, tea, cocoa, coca, or tobacco. Those are all pretty potent in relatively unprocessed forms. Coca leaves, for example, are chewed raw by mountain climbers in South America to help cope with altitude sickness. I'd also like to throw in willow bark. That's where they first go Aspirin from, and tinctures or teas of willow bark have some medicinal affect. Personally, I'd require some ranks in the appropriate skill to know about some of these things and their properties. Not for common things like tea, but for more esoteric things.
MaverickWolf 08-05-07, 12:12 AM	Personally, I'd require some ranks in the appropriate skill to know about some of these things and their properties. Not for common things like tea, but for more esoteric things. And how do you really determine what is/isn't esoteric knowledge in D&D times? Back then, medicine was herbal or non-existent, and I'm fairly certain even commoners would've known more about herbal remedies than most of us do today.
CrimsonDeath 08-05-07, 12:54 AM	For things like coca leaves and willow bark, I think a Profession (Herbalist) check might be logical for determining whether or not you know it's useful.
Ryuoch 08-05-07, 11:32 AM	And how do you really determine what is/isn't esoteric knowledge in D&D times? Back then, medicine was herbal or non-existent, and I'm fairly certain even commoners would've known more about herbal remedies than most of us do today. And I’d expect that their knowledge about Herbal Remedies would very greatly in accuracy form person to person. Chew this bark if you got a head ache. Bark bah chew this leaf. Leaf? No no no you need LEACHES!!! Good old leaches if you were a medieval peasant theirs nothing those suckers couldn’t cure….anyway this is why the skill checks are good (herbalist & healing ) so your not just getting advice for a nut job who thinks that eating dung is going to cure all your ills Also unless your running a more modern campaign morphine is right out. I think it was first created in the 1840s. Now if you are running in a modern campaign Whahahahah just wait till you get major creation (can anyone say alkaline metals!!! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2134266654801392897 )
InkBlot 08-05-07, 01:06 PM	And how do you really determine what is/isn't esoteric knowledge in D&D times? Back then, medicine was herbal or non-existent, and I'm fairly certain even commoners would've known more about herbal remedies than most of us do today. D&D times? Tell me, how many years ago did Hennet and Lidda plunder the Temple Of Grumsh? 243 BC? 783 AD? D&D's default campaigns only superficially resemble medieval Europe in some respects. They also contain renaissance technology, advanced chemistry and mathematics, physical laws completely unlike those found in reality, a completely different (and often much longer) history, concepts which emulate Japan or China commonly seen in ostensibly "European" areas, et cetera. It depends entirely on the setting.
Tempest Stormwind 08-05-07, 01:12 PM	It also varies with geography. I mean, look at Forgotten Realms. Within the span of less than 500 miles, you've got Chult, which is essentially full of jungle ruins and primitive tribes with, I believe, one permanent city, and Lantan, which has clockwork men, gunpowder, countless alchemists and rudimentary mechanical vehicles.
Jhaelen 08-05-07, 03:00 PM	I'd like to invite everyone to have a look at this thread: Strength of Spells: Or why you don't abuse low level spells (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763089) It sums up pretty nicely what I think about matter like this. Please note that this is not about 'stifling creativity', it's about maintaining game-balance. The pro-arguments boil down to applying scientific methods. Science =/= D&D rules. In a typical D&D setting there will be exactly zero individuals who know, what morphine really is. I'd wager most of my players don't have a clue about it - I don't either, btw. :) As InkBlot already pointed out we're well into 'DM's decision' territory here. If the DM doesn't want something to happen, it won't. A DC will be set to be exactly 1 point higher than what the player just rolled, i.e. effectively impossible. In my games I've often allowed things to work that wouldn't have been possible according to the rules. It's perfectly okay to do this if it enhances the game. But if you are too lenient too often and the players start to count on it or abuse it, it stops being fun and you have to pull the plug.
Tedronai 08-05-07, 09:09 PM	These are the problems you run into with the open-ended powers/spells of 'X Creation', and 'X Image' (among others). Their final outcomes are left completely up to a combination of player ingenuity and DM approval. If the DM allows it, they can be some of the most powerful spells in the game. On the other end of the spectrum they might as well not exist, because they're simply not worth having. A psion's powers known are arguably his most valuable resource, and the same goes for casters. They represent nearly everything that character can accomplish with reasonable success and effect (yes, he can shoot a crossbow, but compared even to the fighter? it's a waste of time). If the DM mentions that I'd better have some ranks in Craft (alchemy) or (poisonmaking) if I'm going to pull anything fancy, that's fine by me, and I can probably afford to make those (sculpting) checks untrained. But, unless I know what kind of things my DM will allow, and what not, during character creation, I will NEVER take these powers/spells. I can't afford a useless power. It's simply not worth the risk in most cases.
Jaid 08-06-07, 02:48 PM	These are the problems you run into with the open-ended powers/spells of 'X Creation', and 'X Image' (among others). Their final outcomes are left completely up to a combination of player ingenuity and DM approval. If the DM allows it, they can be some of the most powerful spells in the game. On the other end of the spectrum they might as well not exist, because they're simply not worth having. A psion's powers known are arguably his most valuable resource, and the same goes for casters. They represent nearly everything that character can accomplish with reasonable success and effect (yes, he can shoot a crossbow, but compared even to the fighter? it's a waste of time). If the DM mentions that I'd better have some ranks in Craft (alchemy) or (poisonmaking) if I'm going to pull anything fancy, that's fine by me, and I can probably afford to make those (sculpting) checks untrained. But, unless I know what kind of things my DM will allow, and what not, during character creation, I will NEVER take these powers/spells. I can't afford a useless power. It's simply not worth the risk in most cases.minor creation is not a useless power no matter how you look at it. it's just a toss-up between "really good" and "really really good". being able to conjure up clothes, rope, wooden objects/traps, ladders, poles, bridges, walls, etc is always useful... it's not that being able to create plant poisons makes it worth it, it's just that it's an added level of awesomeness to the power.
Ryuu_Tenshi 08-06-07, 03:12 PM	pitch resin My DMs allowed use of this and it was rather incredible. There was a nest of Horrible Mutant Monster Things That Seemed To Be From Alien (Not joking - there were eggs and facehuggery things. Luckily, they didn't like fire.) We needed a lot of flammable stuff, and fast, and we weren't high enough level to just fireball the place. I didn't want to have to spend the PP for Energy Wall, so instead, I used Minor Creation to spray a bunch of pitch resin everywhere (luckily, we had some time before the damn things were going to hatch.) We lit it with a torch. Boom! Done, and out. This may be inappropriate for a kid's game, but I teamed up with the party wizard to make everyone in a town love us during our week of downtime. Our DM had said that since the stuff from psi minor creation only lasted 6 hours at my level, that we couldn't attain proper nourishment from it (which... really didn't make that much sense to me). He'd also said that while I could create drinkable alchohol, it wouldn't have any flavor. This did not deter me, as apparently I could vary the potency of the alchohol. The wizard used Prestitigitation to flavor the stuff, and I just varied how powerful the content was. We came up with incredible flavors, stuff you don't normally get outside Sigil. Since this town was a dusty, dry outpost on the edge of a vast desert where few trading caravans came through, this led to insane popularity, particularly since the wizard and I were offering this stuff for super, super cheap given that at the time we had nothing better to do. The entire town decided that we were their new best friends. :D So yes. It's a matter of creatively using what you have. And so what if DnD isn't science? water in DnD still has the properties of water; trees still grow and photosynthesize (hypothetically) so I see no reason why stuff wouldn't work.
Jhaelen 08-07-07, 03:36 AM	And so what if DnD isn't science? water in DnD still has the properties of water; trees still grow and photosynthesize (hypothetically) so I see no reason why stuff wouldn't work.It may sound silly to you but in D&D water only has its normal scientific properties if these do not conflict with the D&D rules! D&D rules ALWAYS trump science. Check out the rules for underwater combat for just one example. Have a look at various threads on this or other D&D related boards. These discussions always end the same way.
Harbin_Dunewalker 08-09-07, 03:03 AM	Btw, for all those wanting to create Black Lotus Extract with Minor Creation- there's rules for poisonmaking in Complete Adventurer, using a Craft: Poisonmaking check. Black Lotus Extract requires a DC 35 check. Pretty difficult, even with ranks and a high INT. Of course, all the other lovely uses for Minor Creation are still legal. Ladders, clothes, all that good stuff . . . although for the alcohol, a Craft: Alcohol check probably would have allowed you to get something with actual flavor. Also, if it vanishes from your system within eight hours, does it still cause a hangover? Could be an interesting selling point for a new kind of beer . . .
CrimsonDeath 08-09-07, 04:02 AM	Btw, for all those wanting to create Black Lotus Extract with Minor Creation- there's rules for poisonmaking in Complete Adventurer, using a Craft: Poisonmaking check. Black Lotus Extract requires a DC 35 check. Pretty difficult, even with ranks and a high INT. Of course, all the other lovely uses for Minor Creation are still legal. Ladders, clothes, all that good stuff . . . although for the alcohol, a Craft: Alcohol check probably would have allowed you to get something with actual flavor. Also, if it vanishes from your system within eight hours, does it still cause a hangover? Could be an interesting selling point for a new kind of beer . . . It only takes one hour to metabolize one serving of alcohol. So if you can get a hangover from eight drinks or fewer, then yes, eight hours is plenty of time to get a hangover. If you manifest the power at a lower ML, though, you should be able to have it last long enough to have a party, but not so long that you regret it the morning after.