Psionic Rogue help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic Rogue help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Netjack
03-27-08, 01:21 PM I have to questions about this, one, who would you counter someone's argument that a psionic rogue class is cheap. To me, they give up alot of what a rgiue could get, for only a hand full of Psionic features.

Next question, how would you build one, especially one that preferred to use ranged weapons? Is that a good idea to focus on? If not, how would you build one? Starting from 1 - 20 "probably will not get to 20"
InkBlot
03-27-08, 01:50 PM how would you counter someone's argument that a psionic rogue class is cheap.

That's a very broad argument. Can you narrow it down for us? What reasons did this person give for thinking the psionic rogue is "cheap?"
Netjack
03-27-08, 01:58 PM Pretty much, he thinks you still keep all the beniefts of a rogue, while optaining psionic powers "which he also think are just plain cheap". I tried to tell him that you lose several rogue abilities, like less sneak attacks, and less special abilities, as well as uncanny dodge is gotten at level 9 instead of 4. He thinks that abilities to do psionics more then makes up for it. To me, its an even trade, since you do can only pick from a limited list of powers.
Bacris
03-27-08, 04:12 PM Ranged rogues aren't very good, due to the problem with being able to use sneak attack without flanking. I'd recommend against it.
Nibbler
03-27-08, 05:13 PM Better than the psychic rogue:

Rogue (feat variant) 2/psion (kineticist) 6/elocator 7/slayer 5

Kineticist gets disable device as a class skill. Elocator gets most of the rogue skills at 6+int, and with Practiced Manifester you get ML 19. You lose sneak attack but get MUCH better mobility and very strong psionic powers.
The_Shaman
03-27-08, 07:09 PM Pretty much, he thinks you still keep all the beniefts of a rogue, while optaining psionic powers "which he also think are just plain cheap"..

Actually, I think the OP meant it the other way around - psi-rogues give up a lot of rogue goodies for a handful of psi-powers. I don't agree - while they do get a few less SPs (although with int-based manifesting boosing intelligence becomes a priority - iirc they receive the same amount of bonus PPs as psions do) and a slower SA progression, they get a lot of versatility that normal rogues lack.
Fatalis_902
03-28-08, 06:20 AM Actually, I think the OP meant it the other way around - psi-rogues give up a lot of rogue goodies for a handful of psi-powers. I don't agree - while they do get a few less SPs (although with int-based manifesting boosing intelligence becomes a priority - iirc they receive the same amount of bonus PPs as psions do) and a slower SA progression, they get a lot of versatility that normal rogues lack.

A) The OP was talking about his friend who thinks Psychic Rogues are "just plain cheap," not himself.

B) Bonus PPs are always determined the same way, so everyone with the same primary modifier and manifester level gets the same amount.
herrdoktor
03-28-08, 04:34 PM Next question, how would you build one, especially one that preferred to use ranged weapons? Is that a good idea to focus on? If not, how would you build one? Starting from 1 - 20 "probably will not get to 20"

if you don't mind playing more of a controlling role and less of a damage-dealing role, entangling ectoplasm is a nice 1st-level power to start with (infinite tanglefoot bags), and empty mind (also 1st, though can be augmented pretty well) will help out your poor will saves (gives bonus to them as an immediate action)
Augurer
03-28-08, 04:42 PM I've seen Rogue [feat variant] mentioned before, but I can't find a reference to it in any of the source material. What book is it found in?

Also, I've been looking at the Elocator more closely, and it just doesn't seem that spectacular. It has a hefty set of feat pre-reqs, and it has the same 3/4 BAB progression. Seems like going Psychic Rogue 16 with some other full BAB PrC would be able to do much of the same things as a Psychic Rogue 10/Elocator 10, only better.
The_Shaman
03-28-08, 06:00 PM I've seen Rogue [feat variant] mentioned before, but I can't find a reference to it in any of the source material. What book is it found in?

It's in Unearthed Arcana, and thus also open content: you can find it here. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm)
Nibbler
03-30-08, 02:47 PM Also, I've been looking at the Elocator more closely, and it just doesn't seem that spectacular. It has a hefty set of feat pre-reqs, and it has the same 3/4 BAB progression. Seems like going Psychic Rogue 16 with some other full BAB PrC would be able to do much of the same things as a Psychic Rogue 10/Elocator 10, only better.

It depends what you're looking for. Elocator gets 5/7 ML progression (the last 3 levels of elocator aren't worth it). Most of the rogue skills are on the skill list at 6+ Int, the psion's best stat. You get to walk on walls and the ceiling at will. You get cheap teleportation and plane shift. You get an extra 5' step with a full-round action (meaning you can step 10 feet away from medium-sized enemies after a full attack and they only get a single attack against you). For my elocator I took a level of Shadowdancer first. The prerequisites are similar and the Hide in Plain Sight feature is unbelievable for sneaky types.
Augurer
04-01-08, 04:25 PM It depends what you're looking for. Elocator gets 5/7 ML progression (the last 3 levels of elocator aren't worth it). Most of the rogue skills are on the skill list at 6+ Int, the psion's best stat. You get to walk on walls and the ceiling at will. You get cheap teleportation and plane shift. You get an extra 5' step with a full-round action (meaning you can step 10 feet away from medium-sized enemies after a full attack and they only get a single attack against you). For my elocator I took a level of Shadowdancer first. The prerequisites are similar and the Hide in Plain Sight feature is unbelievable for sneaky types.
I defiitely agree the last 3 levels of Elocator are rather weak.

I'm still on the fence about this build. The DM just granted everyone Able Learner, and condensed Move Silently/Hide into Stealth, and Spot/Listen into Perception.

Using the Synad race (Human is off-limits), I could try:
28 Point Buy
S: 10, D: 16, C: 12, I: 14, W: 8, Ch: 12

Fighter 1/Psychic Rogue 5/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 2/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 5
ML 17, Powers Known: 13, Max Power Level: 5th,
BAB +15, SA +4d6
Mind Cripple or Shadow Jump
ECL 1: Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter)
ECL 1: Dodge
ECL 3: Mobility
ECL 6: Spring Attack
ECL 9: Weapon Finesse

I really love the Swashbuckler's first 3 levels... any opinions on this?
S: 10, D: 16, C: 10, I: 16, W: 8, Ch: 12

Swashbuckler 3/Psychic Rogue 4/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 3/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 3
ML: 15, Powers Known: 12, Max Power Level: 4th
BAB +15, SA +4d6
Insightful Strike
ECL 1: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler)
ECL 1: Dodge
ECL 3: Mobility
ECL 6: Spring Attack
ECL 9: Two Weapon Fighting

Or as a Kalashtar
28 Point Buy
S: 10, D: 16, C: 12, I: 14, W: 8, Ch: 12

Psychic Rogue 6/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 6
ML 18, Powers Known: 14, Max Power Level: 5th,
BAB +14, SA +5d6
Mind Cripple or Shadow Jump
ECL 1: Dodge
ECL 3: Mobility
ECL 6: Spring Attack
ECL 9: Two Weapon Fighting
ECL 12: Weapon Finesse

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netjack 03-27-08, 01:21 PM	I have to questions about this, one, who would you counter someone's argument that a psionic rogue class is cheap. To me, they give up alot of what a rgiue could get, for only a hand full of Psionic features. Next question, how would you build one, especially one that preferred to use ranged weapons? Is that a good idea to focus on? If not, how would you build one? Starting from 1 - 20 "probably will not get to 20"
InkBlot 03-27-08, 01:50 PM	how would you counter someone's argument that a psionic rogue class is cheap. That's a very broad argument. Can you narrow it down for us? What reasons did this person give for thinking the psionic rogue is "cheap?"
Netjack 03-27-08, 01:58 PM	Pretty much, he thinks you still keep all the beniefts of a rogue, while optaining psionic powers "which he also think are just plain cheap". I tried to tell him that you lose several rogue abilities, like less sneak attacks, and less special abilities, as well as uncanny dodge is gotten at level 9 instead of 4. He thinks that abilities to do psionics more then makes up for it. To me, its an even trade, since you do can only pick from a limited list of powers.
Bacris 03-27-08, 04:12 PM	Ranged rogues aren't very good, due to the problem with being able to use sneak attack without flanking. I'd recommend against it.
Nibbler 03-27-08, 05:13 PM	Better than the psychic rogue: Rogue (feat variant) 2/psion (kineticist) 6/elocator 7/slayer 5 Kineticist gets disable device as a class skill. Elocator gets most of the rogue skills at 6+int, and with Practiced Manifester you get ML 19. You lose sneak attack but get MUCH better mobility and very strong psionic powers.
The_Shaman 03-27-08, 07:09 PM	Pretty much, he thinks you still keep all the beniefts of a rogue, while optaining psionic powers "which he also think are just plain cheap".. Actually, I think the OP meant it the other way around - psi-rogues give up a lot of rogue goodies for a handful of psi-powers. I don't agree - while they do get a few less SPs (although with int-based manifesting boosing intelligence becomes a priority - iirc they receive the same amount of bonus PPs as psions do) and a slower SA progression, they get a lot of versatility that normal rogues lack.
Fatalis_902 03-28-08, 06:20 AM	Actually, I think the OP meant it the other way around - psi-rogues give up a lot of rogue goodies for a handful of psi-powers. I don't agree - while they do get a few less SPs (although with int-based manifesting boosing intelligence becomes a priority - iirc they receive the same amount of bonus PPs as psions do) and a slower SA progression, they get a lot of versatility that normal rogues lack. A) The OP was talking about his friend who thinks Psychic Rogues are "just plain cheap," not himself. B) Bonus PPs are always determined the same way, so everyone with the same primary modifier and manifester level gets the same amount.
herrdoktor 03-28-08, 04:34 PM	Next question, how would you build one, especially one that preferred to use ranged weapons? Is that a good idea to focus on? If not, how would you build one? Starting from 1 - 20 "probably will not get to 20" if you don't mind playing more of a controlling role and less of a damage-dealing role, entangling ectoplasm is a nice 1st-level power to start with (infinite tanglefoot bags), and empty mind (also 1st, though can be augmented pretty well) will help out your poor will saves (gives bonus to them as an immediate action)
Augurer 03-28-08, 04:42 PM	I've seen Rogue [feat variant] mentioned before, but I can't find a reference to it in any of the source material. What book is it found in? Also, I've been looking at the Elocator more closely, and it just doesn't seem that spectacular. It has a hefty set of feat pre-reqs, and it has the same 3/4 BAB progression. Seems like going Psychic Rogue 16 with some other full BAB PrC would be able to do much of the same things as a Psychic Rogue 10/Elocator 10, only better.
The_Shaman 03-28-08, 06:00 PM	I've seen Rogue [feat variant] mentioned before, but I can't find a reference to it in any of the source material. What book is it found in? It's in Unearthed Arcana, and thus also open content: you can find it here. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm)
Nibbler 03-30-08, 02:47 PM	Also, I've been looking at the Elocator more closely, and it just doesn't seem that spectacular. It has a hefty set of feat pre-reqs, and it has the same 3/4 BAB progression. Seems like going Psychic Rogue 16 with some other full BAB PrC would be able to do much of the same things as a Psychic Rogue 10/Elocator 10, only better. It depends what you're looking for. Elocator gets 5/7 ML progression (the last 3 levels of elocator aren't worth it). Most of the rogue skills are on the skill list at 6+ Int, the psion's best stat. You get to walk on walls and the ceiling at will. You get cheap teleportation and plane shift. You get an extra 5' step with a full-round action (meaning you can step 10 feet away from medium-sized enemies after a full attack and they only get a single attack against you). For my elocator I took a level of Shadowdancer first. The prerequisites are similar and the Hide in Plain Sight feature is unbelievable for sneaky types.
Augurer 04-01-08, 04:25 PM	It depends what you're looking for. Elocator gets 5/7 ML progression (the last 3 levels of elocator aren't worth it). Most of the rogue skills are on the skill list at 6+ Int, the psion's best stat. You get to walk on walls and the ceiling at will. You get cheap teleportation and plane shift. You get an extra 5' step with a full-round action (meaning you can step 10 feet away from medium-sized enemies after a full attack and they only get a single attack against you). For my elocator I took a level of Shadowdancer first. The prerequisites are similar and the Hide in Plain Sight feature is unbelievable for sneaky types. I defiitely agree the last 3 levels of Elocator are rather weak. I'm still on the fence about this build. The DM just granted everyone Able Learner, and condensed Move Silently/Hide into Stealth, and Spot/Listen into Perception. Using the Synad race (Human is off-limits), I could try: 28 Point Buy S: 10, D: 16, C: 12, I: 14, W: 8, Ch: 12 Fighter 1/Psychic Rogue 5/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 2/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 5 ML 17, Powers Known: 13, Max Power Level: 5th, BAB +15, SA +4d6 Mind Cripple or Shadow Jump ECL 1: Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter) ECL 1: Dodge ECL 3: Mobility ECL 6: Spring Attack ECL 9: Weapon Finesse I really love the Swashbuckler's first 3 levels... any opinions on this? S: 10, D: 16, C: 10, I: 16, W: 8, Ch: 12 Swashbuckler 3/Psychic Rogue 4/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 3/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 3 ML: 15, Powers Known: 12, Max Power Level: 4th BAB +15, SA +4d6 Insightful Strike ECL 1: Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler) ECL 1: Dodge ECL 3: Mobility ECL 6: Spring Attack ECL 9: Two Weapon Fighting Or as a Kalashtar 28 Point Buy S: 10, D: 16, C: 12, I: 14, W: 8, Ch: 12 Psychic Rogue 6/Elocator 1/Psychic Rogue 1/Elocator 6/Psychic Rogue 6 ML 18, Powers Known: 14, Max Power Level: 5th, BAB +14, SA +5d6 Mind Cripple or Shadow Jump ECL 1: Dodge ECL 3: Mobility ECL 6: Spring Attack ECL 9: Two Weapon Fighting ECL 12: Weapon Finesse