Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psikerlord 04-19-07, 10:46 PM	I just read the wizard telekinesis spell (5th level) and have realised that psions are ripped off in this department. Psions instead have 3 powers which are cut and paste(ish) jobs of the 5th level wizard spell - telekinetic force (3rd), telekinetic thrust (3rd) and telekinetic manoeuvre (4th). True enough these powers are lower level, but I'd rather take a single higher level power than 3 lower level ones. Anyone know if there is a straight conversation of Telekinesis (psionic) power in any of the books? I only have the EPH and CPsi books. Cheers for any replies in advance.
AntiDjinn 04-20-07, 02:46 AM	Why bother? 3 lower level powers is superior. A wizard needs to be 9th level to learn Telekinesis. He only gets a few 5th level slots and needs to use one for any of the functions of Telekinesis. By contrast, a psion can know all 3 powers by 7th level (or he can just learn one or two is that is all that interests him) and he only pays for the version he wants to use. Would you really rather pay 9 points (the cost of a 5th level power) to duplicate Telekinetic Force (currently a 3rd level power)? Remember, you only get to pick one version when you manifest. For the same 9 points you could manifest the 3rd level version with augmentation to boost the weight affected, double the duration, make it a burrowing power, or any number of other things that will still outshine the 5th level combined version. Do druids complain that wildshape is useless because eventually the 9th level spell Shapechange duplicates and exceeds the ability? Doesn't the fact that the druid can access the ability fully 12 levels before the wizard can learn the spell count for anything? I suspect that if the Gate spell's two functions were broken down into two separate 7th level powers at least someone on this board would whine that psionics is getting the shaft because wizards only need to learn one spell vs. two separate powers. The rest would realize that having the calling function of Gate (the part that is broken even at 9th level) as a 7th level power is a boon not a backhand.
cymbolik 04-20-07, 09:29 AM	I still feel that powers with similar themes, especially lesser and greater versions of powers, should be augments of each other. While I understand your reasoning, AntiDjinn, it would be better and more in line with the psionic system, to incorporate powers like these into one theme. I'm not saying that the way it is is wrong, nor am I disagreeing with you. I just think that the system could be streamlined a bit more. Sure, there are greater concerns for us all, like metafaculty and what exactly it does, but I've been wondering for a while now why these powers were split the way they were.
AntiDjinn 04-20-07, 12:29 PM	It probably happened in playtesting. I am sure they considered having Telekinetic Maneuver simply be an augmentation of Telekinetic Force, but it probably turned out to be too good a power for 3rd level. Either that, or it was simply too much verbiage for the augment section so it was moved to a separate power. I am sure that at no point did they consider having the kineticist wait until 9th level before he started using Telekinesis.
Psikerlord 04-22-07, 10:49 PM	I agree with cymbolik, it would be more in the vein of psionics to have a single augmentable power. I prefer this over 3 mini powers because you free up slots for other powers. Also, you cannot use the psionic versions to lift an opponent (at least not directly) and keep them suspended in the air (which you can with the wizard version). A very useful Jedi-like force effect! In any event, a solution came to me over the weekend - I should just research a 5th level Telekines (psionic), just like the wizard version, but weight augmentable similar to TF (or similar)
AntiDjinn 04-23-07, 02:42 AM	So go ahead and port the wizard version. If paying 9 points for even the most basic version and then more points to augment seems smarter then knock yourself out. I believe Cymbolik was talking about making more augmentations available to to one of the 3rd level powers to make it work more like TK, but whatever works for your game. While you are at it, why not combine Energy Push, Energy Stun, and Energy Bolt into a single 4th level power? By your theory it will be way better to not have access to any of those powers until ML 7 and then just learn them all with a single 4th level slot. If TK works better this way, then any combination of (2 second + 1 third = 4th level slot) or (2 third + 1 fourth = 5th level slot -- this is what you want to do with TK) should be superior.
cymbolik 04-23-07, 07:06 AM	This is really what I had in mind. Telekinesis, Psionic Psychokinesis [Force] Level: Psion/wilder 3 b: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level) Target: One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text Power Points: 5 You move an object by concentrating your mind upon its current location and then the location you desire, creating a sustained force. You can move an object weighing no more than 250 pounds up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with power resistance. The weight can be moved across the ground or through the air. This power ends if the object is forced out of range. If you cease concentration, the object falls or stops. You can drop a weight and pick up another during the power’s duration, as long as you don’t stop concentrating on maintaining the power. An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if you were moving it with one hand. If you spend at least 5 rounds concentrating on an unattended object, you can attempt to break or burst it as if making a Strength check, except that you apply your key ability modifier to the check instead of your Strength modifier. Alternatively you can use this power to affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon them, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes—or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object or creature per manifester level (maximum fifteen separate targets), as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level. You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder). Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power. If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points). Augment: You can augment this power in one of the following ways: 1. For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit increases by 25 pounds. 2. If you spend 2 additional power points you can affect a single foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. For every 2 additional power points you spend on this augmentation, this power grants a +1 bonus on your checks involving bull rush, disarm, grapple, or trip attempts. As written (at least, I hope so) this version of the power has the following changes: 1. It now incorporates all the telekinesis type effects, but you still pay the same amount of power points to produce those effects as the original power(s). 2. You are now unable to change the status of just any old creature/target with the maneuvre augment, since the power now inherently restricts you to 250lbs. or less. if you want to affect bigger targets, you'll have to pay. At least, this is what I think it's currently saying, by my interpretation. 3. It is still a 3rd level power, so it will still be affected by lesser globe of invulnerability, meaning that you would have to gain access to something that allows you to boost the power's level in order to affect creatures with this spell in effect.
Gemstone 04-23-07, 07:45 AM	IMO, telekinesis is something that arcane magic shouldn't be able to duplicate. That's the realm of psionics, so instead of upping the psionic version, what about removing the arcane?
cymbolik 04-23-07, 08:39 AM	Fair enough, but then by that rationale psions really shouldn't have access to dismissal, banishment, plane shift and similar powers, since they deal more with the nature of summoned entities from the outer planes that are bound and enslaved to do your bidding, or interplanar travel. Teleport is still fine, but nothing that moves you bodily into another plane should be permitted for psionics. Astral projection is fine, again, since that fits the "flavour" you're driving at. Not to mention powers that channel negative and positive energy, viz. the stygian powers and celestial conduit since positive and negative energy is more the realm of the cleric and, in some cases, powered through some arcane spells. As for those two powers that allow you to temporarily take on the abilities of a half fiend or celestial for a few rounds…woo-eeeee, angels and demons, now that’s of psychic relevance.
Gemstone 04-23-07, 12:11 PM	Fair enough, but then by that rationale psions really shouldn't have access to dismissal, banishment, plane shift and similar powers, since they deal more with the nature of summoned entities from the outer planes that are bound and enslaved to do your bidding, or interplanar travel. Teleport is still fine, but nothing that moves you bodily into another plane should be permitted for psionics. Astral projection is fine, again, since that fits the "flavour" you're driving at. Not to mention powers that channel negative and positive energy, viz. the stygian powers and celestial conduit since positive and negative energy is more the realm of the cleric and, in some cases, powered through some arcane spells. As for those two powers that allow you to temporarily take on the abilities of a half fiend or celestial for a few rounds…woo-eeeee, angels and demons, now that’s of psychic relevance. I didn't mention those, but you do drive a point.
cymbolik 04-23-07, 12:29 PM	What I had forgotten to add to that post, and I apologise for any offense I may have caused you to take, is this: Conversely you could say that psions as a class represent the ultimate form of spiritual enlightenment. This allows them to achieve great and wonderous effects by entering a state of focus, allowing them to channel the pure energy of the celestial (or demonic/fiendish) beings they are in contact with. What I'm really getting at is that decisions like that are campaign specific and are made to fit a specific campaign concept. What the XPH represents is the overall possibility and range that can be achieved with psionics.
Gemstone 04-23-07, 01:47 PM	What I'm really getting at is that decisions like that are campaign specific and are made to fit a specific campaign concept. What the XPH represents is the overall possibility and range that can be achieved with psionics. If that really would've been the case, they would've called it something more akin too Power Magic or the like ;) Not just psionics. But I fail to see how our discussion adds to this, so I say we stop this. on topic: You could also keep the powers and create a sort of "Super power" above, which includes all. That's another way to keep all the goodies.
Psikerlord 04-23-07, 10:49 PM	Very nice 3rd level augmentable version of Telekinesis, Cymbolik. Cheers. I agree with Gemstone that telekinesis is more psion flavour than mage.... but overall I think it suits both.