Psionic Theurge, your thoughts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic Theurge, your thoughts? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Caterpillar
07-27-07, 09:14 AM Hey board,

I am starting a new campaign this monday (starting at level 1) and we have a fighter/tempest, an alchemist (something from these boards) a warlock, and a psion.

Since we didn't have a cleric I was thinking of multiclassing and making it into a psionic theurge. At first I loved the idea of having all of those spells and powers and the proficiences I would receive from a cleric.

Well I drew up a mock level 10 character, 3psi/3cleric/4psitheurge. Not to bad I thought, then I did that same character at level 20, 3psi/3cleric/10psithurge/4psion. you lose something like 5 ninth level powers, ~90 PP, 3 bonus feats, and some psicrystal abilities.

What are your opinions on it? Is it worth it for you?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b Psionic Theurge link
DarkTouch
07-27-07, 09:29 AM Depends really on your power list. The fact is, that a lot of powers don't really _NEED_ to have the high level powers. With augmentation all you need to do is get yourself the manifester levels.. and with this build I'm assuming you'll have yourself 'Practiced Manifester' to make up the 3 levels you loose to being a cleric.

Having the healing option is nice.. what type of psion and what domains for the cleric?
Caterpillar
07-27-07, 09:34 AM Auppenser is the god so protection and mentalism. For discipline i'm thinking Kineticist, and yes I would definetly take practiced manifester if for no other reason than to have augments.
Torrential
07-27-07, 02:37 PM There's a great Psychic Theurge build here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-641243).

I've played a PT before, and IMHO the best combo for it would be:

Ardent2/Cleric3/Pt10/WhateverX

Both Ardent and Cleric work off of Wisdom. Ardents gain powers slightly differently than other psionic classes: if you can spend the power points for that power's level, then you can manifest it. So, when you take Practiced Manifester, as a 20th ECL character, you're manifesting as a 20th level Ardent with access to 9th level powers.

Also, the Ardent Mantles (if chosen wisely) can give great versatility to your Cleric spellcasting. Freedom, Time, and Magic are awesome, as well as a few others.

EDIT:

As a Mystra PT, I was a able to:
- cast and manifest in AMZ/DMZs;
- move around the battlefield at will w/ the Freedom Mantle;
- have access to the awesome "oh ****" powers of the Time Mantle;
- have access to the Divine, Psionic, & Arcane (thanks to Anyspell and the Divine Magician variant);
- cast/manifest freely in armor;
- use UMD as a class skill (ala Magic Mantle);
- have magic/psionic transparency regardless of DM opinion (ala Magic Mantle);
- heal/buff/blast/control simultaneously (thanks to Schism & Temporal Acceleration);
- use metamorphosis;
- all on top of the usual brokenness of a Divine Metamagic'ing Cleric who only loses three casting levels.
SlanderPanic
07-27-07, 03:00 PM The problem with multiclassing the ardent is that it doesn't gain access to new mantles if it's getting MLs from a prestige class.
Torrential
07-27-07, 03:52 PM The problem with multiclassing the ardent is that it doesn't gain access to new mantles if it's getting MLs from a prestige class.

You're right. Although, choosing powers from three mantles (four if you pick up Tap Mantle) can still go a long way.

Like I said, i actually played this build in an game setting. With the versatility of the Freedom, Magic, and Time Mantles, plus an Exp Know:Schism and a Tap Mantle to pick up Metamorphosis, and playing an Athasian Human (who gets bonus powers), as well as having all my cleric spells, arcane spells with Anyspell, UMD/UPD, and the ability to use scrolls/wands as a wizard-half-cleric level (per Magic Domain)...

... you don't hurt as badly as you'd think for powers. Especially since you can pick up powers like Temporal Acceleration at the same time as a full manifesting class...
AntiDjinn
07-28-07, 12:51 AM Even as a psion/cleric/PT you don't need to worry about Wis as much as Int. All you need is enough Wis to access divine spells of whatever level you expect to have (Wis 17 by character level 20, for example).

You really won't be concerned about the DC you can generate, because you are going to be using your cleric spells for healing and buffs and counting on your powers for offense.

Don't even worry about turning undead. Any undead you meet you will want to vaporize. Maybe pick up a feat that lets you trade in turn undead attempts for something useful.
zorgling25
07-28-07, 12:57 AM Maybe pick up a feat that lets you trade in turn undead attempts for something useful.

DMM much?
sijigs
07-29-07, 07:39 PM I am currently playing an evil elan Psychic Theurge.

Build is psion > cleric > ur-priest > theurge.

Will get 9th level spells and 9th level powers. :ayyyy!:
Fafnir
07-30-07, 08:52 AM I am currently playing an evil elan Psychic Theurge.

Build is psion > cleric > ur-priest > theurge.

Will get 9th level spells and 9th level powers. :ayyyy!:

Why Cleric? You lose your spells once going into Ur-Priest.
Mesiolan
07-30-07, 09:29 AM I play a Kinetikist 3/Cleric of Pelor 3 / PsyTh X in the Red Hand of Doom campaign. I'm quite happy with the PC. He serves as a second tank in full plate, heals/buffs and blasts pretty well.

As a priest of Pelor, he claims his energy powers are "holy fire" - he usually prays loud while manifesting his "energy missiles (fire)". His holy symbol is a brightly shining carved yellow crystal (his Psicrystal, set with a continual light).

I have to say, the DM was genorous at PC creation, so I have really high stats and don't care much about MAD (STR 13, DEX 12, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 12 at creation).

Practiced Manifester and Practiced Spellcaster are mandatory, as soon as you can afford them. I took one at 1st, the other at 3rd level.

Ardent could have been even better, but having only 3 mantles to choose from (with 2 levels of Ardent) would limit him severely. So I picked Psion instead - savoring all the tasty skill points for high INT.

If you have access to "Hyperconscious" and are in an undead-heavy campaign, add 1 or more levels of Ghostbreaker. It offers some benefits for a Psi/Cle theurge - at 20th level a PSi3/Cle3/PsyTh9/Ghostbr5 with Practiced Manifester turns undead as a 25th level cleric, shrugs off some negative levels and may blast undead with his powers even better (heavy bonus damage vs. undead). BAB +12, ML 17 (+ practiced), but cleric 12th level (+ practiced) only.

I intend to get my 13th level in this PrC, before finishing PsyTh 7-10.
sijigs
07-30-07, 05:29 PM Why Cleric? You lose your spells once going into Ur-Priest.

I only took 1 level of it for skill reqs. And it made sense that he was a psion.. took a level in cleric but despised worshipping.. etc. could've had another class I guess but it's working out. My current build:

Psion 4 > Cleric 1 > Ur Priest 2 > Theurge X
JulesCARV
07-30-07, 05:57 PM If possible, I recommend that you go archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) from Heroes of Horror.

What discipline are you going for as a psion?

UPDATE: Oh, you're a kineticist. Missed that.
sijigs
07-30-07, 08:16 PM If possible, I recommend that you go archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) from Heroes of Horror.

IMHO this class is not really worth it as a dip for Theurge because most of their cool abilities are derived from single classing.

I could be missing something.. please let me know ;)
zorgling25
07-30-07, 11:51 PM IMHO this class is not really worth it as a dip for Theurge because most of their cool abilities are derived from single classing.

I could be missing something.. please let me know ;)

The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD.
sijigs
07-31-07, 12:40 AM The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD.

Point.

But.. meh

It's a rare occassion that any half decent manifester/caster has stink Int and/or Wis.
CrimsonDeath
07-31-07, 12:54 AM The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD.
An Illumian can alleviate MAD a bit more by deriving Archivist bonus spells from Dexterity (probably the third most important ability for a Psion, after Int and Con).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterpillar 07-27-07, 09:14 AM	Hey board, I am starting a new campaign this monday (starting at level 1) and we have a fighter/tempest, an alchemist (something from these boards) a warlock, and a psion. Since we didn't have a cleric I was thinking of multiclassing and making it into a psionic theurge. At first I loved the idea of having all of those spells and powers and the proficiences I would receive from a cleric. Well I drew up a mock level 10 character, 3psi/3cleric/4psitheurge. Not to bad I thought, then I did that same character at level 20, 3psi/3cleric/10psithurge/4psion. you lose something like 5 ninth level powers, ~90 PP, 3 bonus feats, and some psicrystal abilities. What are your opinions on it? Is it worth it for you? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b Psionic Theurge link
DarkTouch 07-27-07, 09:29 AM	Depends really on your power list. The fact is, that a lot of powers don't really _NEED_ to have the high level powers. With augmentation all you need to do is get yourself the manifester levels.. and with this build I'm assuming you'll have yourself 'Practiced Manifester' to make up the 3 levels you loose to being a cleric. Having the healing option is nice.. what type of psion and what domains for the cleric?
Caterpillar 07-27-07, 09:34 AM	Auppenser is the god so protection and mentalism. For discipline i'm thinking Kineticist, and yes I would definetly take practiced manifester if for no other reason than to have augments.
Torrential 07-27-07, 02:37 PM	There's a great Psychic Theurge build here (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-641243). I've played a PT before, and IMHO the best combo for it would be: Ardent2/Cleric3/Pt10/WhateverX Both Ardent and Cleric work off of Wisdom. Ardents gain powers slightly differently than other psionic classes: if you can spend the power points for that power's level, then you can manifest it. So, when you take Practiced Manifester, as a 20th ECL character, you're manifesting as a 20th level Ardent with access to 9th level powers. Also, the Ardent Mantles (if chosen wisely) can give great versatility to your Cleric spellcasting. Freedom, Time, and Magic are awesome, as well as a few others. EDIT: As a Mystra PT, I was a able to: - cast and manifest in AMZ/DMZs; - move around the battlefield at will w/ the Freedom Mantle; - have access to the awesome "oh ****" powers of the Time Mantle; - have access to the Divine, Psionic, & Arcane (thanks to Anyspell and the Divine Magician variant); - cast/manifest freely in armor; - use UMD as a class skill (ala Magic Mantle); - have magic/psionic transparency regardless of DM opinion (ala Magic Mantle); - heal/buff/blast/control simultaneously (thanks to Schism & Temporal Acceleration); - use metamorphosis; - all on top of the usual brokenness of a Divine Metamagic'ing Cleric who only loses three casting levels.
SlanderPanic 07-27-07, 03:00 PM	The problem with multiclassing the ardent is that it doesn't gain access to new mantles if it's getting MLs from a prestige class.
Torrential 07-27-07, 03:52 PM	The problem with multiclassing the ardent is that it doesn't gain access to new mantles if it's getting MLs from a prestige class. You're right. Although, choosing powers from three mantles (four if you pick up Tap Mantle) can still go a long way. Like I said, i actually played this build in an game setting. With the versatility of the Freedom, Magic, and Time Mantles, plus an Exp Know:Schism and a Tap Mantle to pick up Metamorphosis, and playing an Athasian Human (who gets bonus powers), as well as having all my cleric spells, arcane spells with Anyspell, UMD/UPD, and the ability to use scrolls/wands as a wizard-half-cleric level (per Magic Domain)... ... you don't hurt as badly as you'd think for powers. Especially since you can pick up powers like Temporal Acceleration at the same time as a full manifesting class...
AntiDjinn 07-28-07, 12:51 AM	Even as a psion/cleric/PT you don't need to worry about Wis as much as Int. All you need is enough Wis to access divine spells of whatever level you expect to have (Wis 17 by character level 20, for example). You really won't be concerned about the DC you can generate, because you are going to be using your cleric spells for healing and buffs and counting on your powers for offense. Don't even worry about turning undead. Any undead you meet you will want to vaporize. Maybe pick up a feat that lets you trade in turn undead attempts for something useful.
zorgling25 07-28-07, 12:57 AM	Maybe pick up a feat that lets you trade in turn undead attempts for something useful. DMM much?
sijigs 07-29-07, 07:39 PM	I am currently playing an evil elan Psychic Theurge. Build is psion > cleric > ur-priest > theurge. Will get 9th level spells and 9th level powers. :ayyyy!:
Fafnir 07-30-07, 08:52 AM	I am currently playing an evil elan Psychic Theurge. Build is psion > cleric > ur-priest > theurge. Will get 9th level spells and 9th level powers. :ayyyy!: Why Cleric? You lose your spells once going into Ur-Priest.
Mesiolan 07-30-07, 09:29 AM	I play a Kinetikist 3/Cleric of Pelor 3 / PsyTh X in the Red Hand of Doom campaign. I'm quite happy with the PC. He serves as a second tank in full plate, heals/buffs and blasts pretty well. As a priest of Pelor, he claims his energy powers are "holy fire" - he usually prays loud while manifesting his "energy missiles (fire)". His holy symbol is a brightly shining carved yellow crystal (his Psicrystal, set with a continual light). I have to say, the DM was genorous at PC creation, so I have really high stats and don't care much about MAD (STR 13, DEX 12, CON 16, INT 18, WIS 16, CHA 12 at creation). Practiced Manifester and Practiced Spellcaster are mandatory, as soon as you can afford them. I took one at 1st, the other at 3rd level. Ardent could have been even better, but having only 3 mantles to choose from (with 2 levels of Ardent) would limit him severely. So I picked Psion instead - savoring all the tasty skill points for high INT. If you have access to "Hyperconscious" and are in an undead-heavy campaign, add 1 or more levels of Ghostbreaker. It offers some benefits for a Psi/Cle theurge - at 20th level a PSi3/Cle3/PsyTh9/Ghostbr5 with Practiced Manifester turns undead as a 25th level cleric, shrugs off some negative levels and may blast undead with his powers even better (heavy bonus damage vs. undead). BAB +12, ML 17 (+ practiced), but cleric 12th level (+ practiced) only. I intend to get my 13th level in this PrC, before finishing PsyTh 7-10.
sijigs 07-30-07, 05:29 PM	Why Cleric? You lose your spells once going into Ur-Priest. I only took 1 level of it for skill reqs. And it made sense that he was a psion.. took a level in cleric but despised worshipping.. etc. could've had another class I guess but it's working out. My current build: Psion 4 > Cleric 1 > Ur Priest 2 > Theurge X
JulesCARV 07-30-07, 05:57 PM	If possible, I recommend that you go archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) from Heroes of Horror. What discipline are you going for as a psion? UPDATE: Oh, you're a kineticist. Missed that.
sijigs 07-30-07, 08:16 PM	If possible, I recommend that you go archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) from Heroes of Horror. IMHO this class is not really worth it as a dip for Theurge because most of their cool abilities are derived from single classing. I could be missing something.. please let me know ;)
zorgling25 07-30-07, 11:51 PM	IMHO this class is not really worth it as a dip for Theurge because most of their cool abilities are derived from single classing. I could be missing something.. please let me know ;) The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD.
sijigs 07-31-07, 12:40 AM	The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD. Point. But.. meh It's a rare occassion that any half decent manifester/caster has stink Int and/or Wis.
CrimsonDeath 07-31-07, 12:54 AM	The only class with int-based divine casting for one...almost (but not quite, because of bonus spells) eliminating MAD. An Illumian can alleviate MAD a bit more by deriving Archivist bonus spells from Dexterity (probably the third most important ability for a Psion, after Int and Con).