Psionic weapon + psionic shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic weapon + psionic shot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 09:50 PM Can these both be used together?
Being a soul knife you can throw your melee weapon for a ranged attack.

So would you be able to if you had the right feats ( psi crystal and the one where you can psionicly focus it) and the one where you focus as a move action.

Now you expand your focus to give it psionic weapon and you expand the psicrystals for psionic shot. Would you get 4d6 extra damage for the thrown weapon?

Since Psionic weapon says you "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not when you make a melee attack.

And psionic shot says "Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage". and not with a ranged weapon.

Since you are Throwing a melee weapon for a ranged attack. :D Would it work. And if not Why not and what rule would this fall under. Also why do you think it would not work. Or why it would work.

I just would like some input.
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 10:04 PM When you throw your mind blade, it becomes a ranged weapon for the duration of that attack.

It might work for a Bloodstorm Blade, though.
Bacris
10-19-07, 10:08 PM I'd probably allow it, despite that when you throw your mind blade, it becomes a thrown weapon, not a melee weapon.

However, the reasosn I would allow it are the following:

Multi-classing - you have to have a manifester level for a psicrystal
Excessive feat investment - psionic weapon, psionic shot, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic meditation
Recharge rate - unless you're at least a 3rd level manifester - taking away 3 levels from your soulknife progression - it'll take you 1 round to recharge (2 move actions)
All or nothing - miss and you have to go through a full round to recharge - no holding the charge
Soulknife - not the best class, even if you're pure SK / min/maxed - and you're a multiclassed soulknife
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 10:14 PM What if you used the throw anything feat? Does it still make it a ranged weapons?

Oh and I over looked the Throw mind blade ability. >.< :(

Also its possable to do at level 8 :-p Soul knife 5/psi warrior3. Working one class arrangment would be the hard part i believe.
Dead_Weasel
10-19-07, 10:36 PM This does not work for two reasons: An attack is either a melee attack or a ranged attack, never both. I appreciate that there is a gap in the rules there, but the intent behind each feat is too clear in this case. Both feats require the expenditure of psionic focus, and you are either focused or you are not - you cannot expend your focus two times as part of a single action, because you only have one focus to expend, and recovering it never gets any faster than a move action (to my knowledge).
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 10:47 PM Dead but you can get feats that let you focus your crystal and spend its focus. Thus having to focuses to spend.

The real confusion came when the feat said "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not something like Your melee attack. Since a mind blade is a melee weapon and then thrown its still a melee weapon.

Atleast thats what i though when i was first going over this. Then people pointed out that when i use the throw mind blade ability it becomes a ranged weapon.

Now the real question is if i took the feat Throw anything would it work. cus it says you throw a melee weapon like it was a ranged weapon. It doesnt state that it becomes a ranged weapon like the throw mind blade ability does.

So if i had those feats that Bacris said and the feat throw anything. Would it be possable? I know this is using a lot of feats but well worth it.
Sagetim
10-19-07, 11:10 PM Can these both be used together?
Being a soul knife you can throw your melee weapon for a ranged attack.

So would you be able to if you had the right feats ( psi crystal and the one where you can psionicly focus it) and the one where you focus as a move action.

Now you expand your focus to give it psionic weapon and you expand the psicrystals for psionic shot. Would you get 4d6 extra damage for the thrown weapon?

Since Psionic weapon says you "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not when you make a melee attack.

And psionic shot says "Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage". and not with a ranged weapon.

Since you are Throwing a melee weapon for a ranged attack. :D Would it work. And if not Why not and what rule would this fall under. Also why do you think it would not work. Or why it would work.

I just would like some input.

no. you cannot use both on one attack. It is a RANGED ATTACK to throw a mindblade. Therefore only psionic shot can be used for it. If you want to stab someone, psionic weapon is your thing because it is MELEE ATTACK. I put those words in capitals because they are the key words. You cannot have an attack that is both ranged and melee. As well, you would still have to expend two focuses to use both feats. Each would be a seperate expenditure required.

if, by some unholy act, you can convince your DM to let you use both, you still have to expend two focuses to activate two feats. However, this would be a waste of time and effort. There are Greater Psionic shot, and Greater Psionic Weapon for a reason.

edit: even with throw anything, you still make a RANGED ATTACK ROLL. not a melee roll, not the average of your melee and ranged rolls, just a ranged roll. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out. The intent of the feat is to give someone extra kick for their attacks. If they were going to make it so you could use both feats on one attack, they wouldn't have bothered making them seperate feats, and just made one feat chain called something like 'psychic my weapon kicks your ass'.
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 11:17 PM yes sagetim i know those are the key words. But those key words DO NOT exist in one of the feats. Its mainly the wording of the Psionic Weapon feat. It just says your attack with a melee weapon. So it doesnt state that it has to be a melee attack with it.

Also so what there is a greater psionic weapon and shot? at a higher level say 3 or 4 i could end up getting both of them for 8d6 extra damage. Thats why this question came up.
Sagetim
10-19-07, 11:21 PM yes sagetim i know those are the key words. But those key words DO NOT exist in one of the feats. Its mainly the wording of the Psionic Weapon feat. It just says your attack with a melee weapon. So it doesnt state that it has to be a melee attack with it.

Also so what there is a greater psionic weapon and shot? at a higher level say 3 or 4 i could end up getting both of them for 8d6 extra damage. Thats why this question came up.

When you throw something, it ceases to be a melee weapon. For that attack, it becomes a ranged weapon. Even if it was never intended for that purpose. Also, there are many instances of crappy wording in the psionics books. Please, don't use that as an excuse to try and break psionics, rather, go with the intent of the words.
CrimsonDeath
10-19-07, 11:45 PM An attack is either a melee attack or a ranged attack, never both.

Unless you're a level 2 Bloodstorm Blade.
Ninja_Ferret
10-19-07, 11:46 PM what book is this bloodstorm blade in?
Dead_Weasel
10-20-07, 12:05 AM Tome of Battle, and CrimsonDeath is correct.
Kaleran1277
10-20-07, 02:18 AM I do not know about this stacking the melee and ranged versions, I feel that this is taking a feat that should be straight forward, but had a...less than rules-lawyer-resistant wording, and breaking it. I simply believe that these feat were likely tested with the 3.5 edition soulknife, not extensively, and were intended to be an either/or kind of thing.

I do not have TOB, nor any 3rd party books(clawing out of debt + paying bills for family is higher priority, though I hope Santa has at least one "RPG goodie" under my tree this year!), so I cannot speak to any TOB nor to 3rd party books. Still I feel that this is a clear case of either you use it as 'melee' and add that corresponding feat or as a 'ranged' weapon, again adding only the ranged feat(s) to the mind blade.

Thank you, Kaleran1277
Sagetim
10-20-07, 02:55 AM I do not know about this stacking the melee and ranged versions, I feel that this is taking a feat that should be straight forward, but had a...less than rules-lawyer-resistant wording, and breaking it. I simply believe that these feat were likely tested with the 3.5 edition soulknife, not extensively, and were intended to be an either/or kind of thing.

I do not have TOB, nor any 3rd party books(clawing out of debt + paying bills for family is higher priority, though I hope Santa has at least one "RPG goodie" under my tree this year!), so I cannot speak to any TOB nor to 3rd party books. Still I feel that this is a clear case of either you use it as 'melee' and add that corresponding feat or as a 'ranged' weapon, again adding only the ranged feat(s) to the mind blade.

Thank you, Kaleran1277

I'd like to state that I don't have the tome of battle either, and would really hate to see someone break a psioinc feat like this. Especially because it would then give something for people who know nothing about psioncs and complain about the brokenness something new to point at and go 'evil evil! psionics is broken! it cannot be used for it does not work correctly! no psionics for it doesn't work like magic and I'm too lazy to actually read the rules all the way but the part I did read said that someone could do blah blah blah'

yeah...That's what I don't like the idea of trying to use both feats at once. That, and it seems munchkiny. If you want to play Munchkin d20 and make a feat that lets you use both of those feats at once, then go right ahead. Steve Jackson games sells the book for something like 15 bucks or so. Good luck convincing your DM to play Munckin d20 though.
InkBlot
10-20-07, 03:38 PM Regarding Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw abiiity, it's arguable that it would only allow you to apply Psionic Weapon to thrown weapons and not Psionic Shot. It states that "as a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attack rolls for the rest of your turn."

Either way, this trick would require a heavy investment. You need to take ten feats, or seven feats and at least one level of Warblade. For all that effort you get to add 8d6 + weapon damage to a single attack -- then you need to take two full-round actions before being able to do it again.

The earliest you can do it is 9th level, as a human, by going Psywar4/Warblade2/Psywar1/Bloodstorm Blade2. You can't use it in a full attack until you get Quick Draw in two levels, or unless you use it on your last attack (which isn't likely to hit). At this level a Swordsage can use the 1st level boost Burning Blade on his two-attack full attack, dealing an extra 2d6+18 points of fire damage if both hit (half if one hits), without taking any feats at all, and it only takes him half as long to recharge that maneuver.

It might be muchkinish. I don't think it is. It fits with the theme of the class, and if you split your focus for so long it aught to pay off for a few levels (until you get things that are just plain better). It also doesn't seem broken to me, compared with powerful effects available at the same level to similar characters with less investment of resources.
Sagetim
10-21-07, 12:21 AM Regarding Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw abiiity, it's arguable that it would only allow you to apply Psionic Weapon to thrown weapons and not Psionic Shot. It states that "as a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attack rolls for the rest of your turn."

Either way, this trick would require a heavy investment. You need to take ten feats, or seven feats and at least one level of Warblade. For all that effort you get to add 8d6 + weapon damage to a single attack -- then you need to take two full-round actions before being able to do it again.

The earliest you can do it is 9th level, as a human, by going Psywar4/Warblade2/Psywar1/Bloodstorm Blade2. You can't use it in a full attack until you get Quick Draw in two levels, or unless you use it on your last attack (which isn't likely to hit). At this level a Swordsage can use the 1st level boost Burning Blade on his two-attack full attack, dealing an extra 2d6+18 points of fire damage if both hit (half if one hits), without taking any feats at all, and it only takes him half as long to recharge that maneuver.

It might be muchkinish. I don't think it is. It fits with the theme of the class, and if you split your focus for so long it aught to pay off for a few levels (until you get things that are just plain better). It also doesn't seem broken to me, compared with powerful effects available at the same level to similar characters with less investment of resources.

good god that's alot invested just to pull it off. If you've got that much invested in it just to do that then perhaps it isn't broken. However, it's still going to look that way from the point of view of someone who barely reads psionics then complains (not much we can do about them, but there's no reason to give them more to complain about).
Ninja_Ferret
10-21-07, 01:10 AM I calcualted it out. I could get 5d8 + 12d6 + str on one attack every 1 and 1/2 turns. Just subtract 4d6 if psionic shot and greater psionic shot wont work. Then adding in a couple of other feats. It would work every 1 and 1/2 turns to 2 turns depending on another ruling.

Thats by level 12.
Bacris
10-21-07, 07:55 AM Really sucks if you miss ;)
Malcaor
10-21-07, 09:58 AM An arrow can be used as a melee weapon, but i would never allow a player to use psionic weapon if it was fired from a bow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 09:50 PM	Can these both be used together? Being a soul knife you can throw your melee weapon for a ranged attack. So would you be able to if you had the right feats ( psi crystal and the one where you can psionicly focus it) and the one where you focus as a move action. Now you expand your focus to give it psionic weapon and you expand the psicrystals for psionic shot. Would you get 4d6 extra damage for the thrown weapon? Since Psionic weapon says you "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not when you make a melee attack. And psionic shot says "Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage". and not with a ranged weapon. Since you are Throwing a melee weapon for a ranged attack. :D Would it work. And if not Why not and what rule would this fall under. Also why do you think it would not work. Or why it would work. I just would like some input.
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 10:04 PM	When you throw your mind blade, it becomes a ranged weapon for the duration of that attack. It might work for a Bloodstorm Blade, though.
Bacris 10-19-07, 10:08 PM	I'd probably allow it, despite that when you throw your mind blade, it becomes a thrown weapon, not a melee weapon. However, the reasosn I would allow it are the following: Multi-classing - you have to have a manifester level for a psicrystal Excessive feat investment - psionic weapon, psionic shot, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, psionic meditation Recharge rate - unless you're at least a 3rd level manifester - taking away 3 levels from your soulknife progression - it'll take you 1 round to recharge (2 move actions) All or nothing - miss and you have to go through a full round to recharge - no holding the charge Soulknife - not the best class, even if you're pure SK / min/maxed - and you're a multiclassed soulknife
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 10:14 PM	What if you used the throw anything feat? Does it still make it a ranged weapons? Oh and I over looked the Throw mind blade ability. >.< :( Also its possable to do at level 8 :-p Soul knife 5/psi warrior3. Working one class arrangment would be the hard part i believe.
Dead_Weasel 10-19-07, 10:36 PM	This does not work for two reasons: An attack is either a melee attack or a ranged attack, never both. I appreciate that there is a gap in the rules there, but the intent behind each feat is too clear in this case. Both feats require the expenditure of psionic focus, and you are either focused or you are not - you cannot expend your focus two times as part of a single action, because you only have one focus to expend, and recovering it never gets any faster than a move action (to my knowledge).
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 10:47 PM	Dead but you can get feats that let you focus your crystal and spend its focus. Thus having to focuses to spend. The real confusion came when the feat said "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not something like Your melee attack. Since a mind blade is a melee weapon and then thrown its still a melee weapon. Atleast thats what i though when i was first going over this. Then people pointed out that when i use the throw mind blade ability it becomes a ranged weapon. Now the real question is if i took the feat Throw anything would it work. cus it says you throw a melee weapon like it was a ranged weapon. It doesnt state that it becomes a ranged weapon like the throw mind blade ability does. So if i had those feats that Bacris said and the feat throw anything. Would it be possable? I know this is using a lot of feats but well worth it.
Sagetim 10-19-07, 11:10 PM	Can these both be used together? Being a soul knife you can throw your melee weapon for a ranged attack. So would you be able to if you had the right feats ( psi crystal and the one where you can psionicly focus it) and the one where you focus as a move action. Now you expand your focus to give it psionic weapon and you expand the psicrystals for psionic shot. Would you get 4d6 extra damage for the thrown weapon? Since Psionic weapon says you "Your attack with a melee weapon" and not when you make a melee attack. And psionic shot says "Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage". and not with a ranged weapon. Since you are Throwing a melee weapon for a ranged attack. :D Would it work. And if not Why not and what rule would this fall under. Also why do you think it would not work. Or why it would work. I just would like some input. no. you cannot use both on one attack. It is a RANGED ATTACK to throw a mindblade. Therefore only psionic shot can be used for it. If you want to stab someone, psionic weapon is your thing because it is MELEE ATTACK. I put those words in capitals because they are the key words. You cannot have an attack that is both ranged and melee. As well, you would still have to expend two focuses to use both feats. Each would be a seperate expenditure required. if, by some unholy act, you can convince your DM to let you use both, you still have to expend two focuses to activate two feats. However, this would be a waste of time and effort. There are Greater Psionic shot, and Greater Psionic Weapon for a reason. edit: even with throw anything, you still make a RANGED ATTACK ROLL. not a melee roll, not the average of your melee and ranged rolls, just a ranged roll. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out. The intent of the feat is to give someone extra kick for their attacks. If they were going to make it so you could use both feats on one attack, they wouldn't have bothered making them seperate feats, and just made one feat chain called something like 'psychic my weapon kicks your ass'.
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 11:17 PM	yes sagetim i know those are the key words. But those key words DO NOT exist in one of the feats. Its mainly the wording of the Psionic Weapon feat. It just says your attack with a melee weapon. So it doesnt state that it has to be a melee attack with it. Also so what there is a greater psionic weapon and shot? at a higher level say 3 or 4 i could end up getting both of them for 8d6 extra damage. Thats why this question came up.
Sagetim 10-19-07, 11:21 PM	yes sagetim i know those are the key words. But those key words DO NOT exist in one of the feats. Its mainly the wording of the Psionic Weapon feat. It just says your attack with a melee weapon. So it doesnt state that it has to be a melee attack with it. Also so what there is a greater psionic weapon and shot? at a higher level say 3 or 4 i could end up getting both of them for 8d6 extra damage. Thats why this question came up. When you throw something, it ceases to be a melee weapon. For that attack, it becomes a ranged weapon. Even if it was never intended for that purpose. Also, there are many instances of crappy wording in the psionics books. Please, don't use that as an excuse to try and break psionics, rather, go with the intent of the words.
CrimsonDeath 10-19-07, 11:45 PM	An attack is either a melee attack or a ranged attack, never both. Unless you're a level 2 Bloodstorm Blade.
Ninja_Ferret 10-19-07, 11:46 PM	what book is this bloodstorm blade in?
Dead_Weasel 10-20-07, 12:05 AM	Tome of Battle, and CrimsonDeath is correct.
Kaleran1277 10-20-07, 02:18 AM	I do not know about this stacking the melee and ranged versions, I feel that this is taking a feat that should be straight forward, but had a...less than rules-lawyer-resistant wording, and breaking it. I simply believe that these feat were likely tested with the 3.5 edition soulknife, not extensively, and were intended to be an either/or kind of thing. I do not have TOB, nor any 3rd party books(clawing out of debt + paying bills for family is higher priority, though I hope Santa has at least one "RPG goodie" under my tree this year!), so I cannot speak to any TOB nor to 3rd party books. Still I feel that this is a clear case of either you use it as 'melee' and add that corresponding feat or as a 'ranged' weapon, again adding only the ranged feat(s) to the mind blade. Thank you, Kaleran1277
Sagetim 10-20-07, 02:55 AM	I do not know about this stacking the melee and ranged versions, I feel that this is taking a feat that should be straight forward, but had a...less than rules-lawyer-resistant wording, and breaking it. I simply believe that these feat were likely tested with the 3.5 edition soulknife, not extensively, and were intended to be an either/or kind of thing. I do not have TOB, nor any 3rd party books(clawing out of debt + paying bills for family is higher priority, though I hope Santa has at least one "RPG goodie" under my tree this year!), so I cannot speak to any TOB nor to 3rd party books. Still I feel that this is a clear case of either you use it as 'melee' and add that corresponding feat or as a 'ranged' weapon, again adding only the ranged feat(s) to the mind blade. Thank you, Kaleran1277 I'd like to state that I don't have the tome of battle either, and would really hate to see someone break a psioinc feat like this. Especially because it would then give something for people who know nothing about psioncs and complain about the brokenness something new to point at and go 'evil evil! psionics is broken! it cannot be used for it does not work correctly! no psionics for it doesn't work like magic and I'm too lazy to actually read the rules all the way but the part I did read said that someone could do blah blah blah' yeah...That's what I don't like the idea of trying to use both feats at once. That, and it seems munchkiny. If you want to play Munchkin d20 and make a feat that lets you use both of those feats at once, then go right ahead. Steve Jackson games sells the book for something like 15 bucks or so. Good luck convincing your DM to play Munckin d20 though.
InkBlot 10-20-07, 03:38 PM	Regarding Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw abiiity, it's arguable that it would only allow you to apply Psionic Weapon to thrown weapons and not Psionic Shot. It states that "as a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attack rolls for the rest of your turn." Either way, this trick would require a heavy investment. You need to take ten feats, or seven feats and at least one level of Warblade. For all that effort you get to add 8d6 + weapon damage to a single attack -- then you need to take two full-round actions before being able to do it again. The earliest you can do it is 9th level, as a human, by going Psywar4/Warblade2/Psywar1/Bloodstorm Blade2. You can't use it in a full attack until you get Quick Draw in two levels, or unless you use it on your last attack (which isn't likely to hit). At this level a Swordsage can use the 1st level boost Burning Blade on his two-attack full attack, dealing an extra 2d6+18 points of fire damage if both hit (half if one hits), without taking any feats at all, and it only takes him half as long to recharge that maneuver. It might be muchkinish. I don't think it is. It fits with the theme of the class, and if you split your focus for so long it aught to pay off for a few levels (until you get things that are just plain better). It also doesn't seem broken to me, compared with powerful effects available at the same level to similar characters with less investment of resources.
Sagetim 10-21-07, 12:21 AM	Regarding Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw abiiity, it's arguable that it would only allow you to apply Psionic Weapon to thrown weapons and not Psionic Shot. It states that "as a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attack rolls for the rest of your turn." Either way, this trick would require a heavy investment. You need to take ten feats, or seven feats and at least one level of Warblade. For all that effort you get to add 8d6 + weapon damage to a single attack -- then you need to take two full-round actions before being able to do it again. The earliest you can do it is 9th level, as a human, by going Psywar4/Warblade2/Psywar1/Bloodstorm Blade2. You can't use it in a full attack until you get Quick Draw in two levels, or unless you use it on your last attack (which isn't likely to hit). At this level a Swordsage can use the 1st level boost Burning Blade on his two-attack full attack, dealing an extra 2d6+18 points of fire damage if both hit (half if one hits), without taking any feats at all, and it only takes him half as long to recharge that maneuver. It might be muchkinish. I don't think it is. It fits with the theme of the class, and if you split your focus for so long it aught to pay off for a few levels (until you get things that are just plain better). It also doesn't seem broken to me, compared with powerful effects available at the same level to similar characters with less investment of resources. good god that's alot invested just to pull it off. If you've got that much invested in it just to do that then perhaps it isn't broken. However, it's still going to look that way from the point of view of someone who barely reads psionics then complains (not much we can do about them, but there's no reason to give them more to complain about).
Ninja_Ferret 10-21-07, 01:10 AM	I calcualted it out. I could get 5d8 + 12d6 + str on one attack every 1 and 1/2 turns. Just subtract 4d6 if psionic shot and greater psionic shot wont work. Then adding in a couple of other feats. It would work every 1 and 1/2 turns to 2 turns depending on another ruling. Thats by level 12.
Bacris 10-21-07, 07:55 AM	Really sucks if you miss ;)
Malcaor 10-21-07, 09:58 AM	An arrow can be used as a melee weapon, but i would never allow a player to use psionic weapon if it was fired from a bow.