Psionic: Visual? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic: Visual? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grimmoloth
05-04-07, 09:38 AM I noticed the rules in the book for what a powers display and with the exception of a few, most of them don't pin point the manifester. Here's an example; a Psion is in the middle of a crowd, a speaker on a stage 10ft away form him is his target. With Mindthrust would the Psion (assuming that the target failed his save and took damage) be noticed?
Lazigothi
05-04-07, 12:13 PM I remember Dark Sun emphasizing the alarmingly discreet Psionic powers to enhance the atmosphere of a brutal, paranoia-filled campaign setting. Arcane and Divine spellcasters usually have obvious indicators that allow casual observers to trace effects to them with few exceptions. The XPH has seemed to provide a means of making Psionicists more enticing to concerned DM's by now including visual, auditory, and sensory effects, which effectively makes the Psionicist less discreet as before.

Without reading the power's description, and assuming it lists no apparent special effects (and thus why you posed the question), I'd offer that, immediately, the target, at least, becomes aware of the Psionicist. Unless something else happens, the target should very much remember the event and should retaliate as befitting the campaign.

To enact a power, the Psionicist always provokes an attack of opportunity, which means that the eyes perhaps glaze over/ or the gaze intensifies, and this might not at first appear out of the ordinary with everyone else in a crowd observing an orator and displaying similar facial expressions.

As soon as the power happens, people in the crowd might get spot checks depending on how the orator has become altered. I might add circumstantial bonuses to those with Knowledge: Psionics.

I'd also ask you how your Campaign setting handles Psionic powers in cities (in general, and/or this particular city). Not to intentionally "nerf" a good idea, but there might be a reasonable expectation to anticipate magical and/or psionic influence for anyone engaged in a public speach with common means to counteract them. There might be signs saying "No Divine/ Charm (etc.) Spells Allowed," a kind of Secret Service of defensive protection for Priests, Politicians, Nobles, etc. A random, alleyway citizen getting on a soapbox might not receive such elaborate protection, but the Mayor might when addressing the town hall. Likewise, the reverse might be true where the crowd would be protected in Lawful/Good societies. There might be specially designated arenas with anti-magic fields that protect everyone in the building.

In such a setting, the character would know about the laws, who gets protected, typical means of protection, and it wouldn't otherwise come as a frustrating surprise when his power backfires/ gets negated.

Let's say a power "does" have all the firework special effects. Cityscape provides a feat to make a spell seem to come from somewhere else, and I'd allow such feats to enable more discreet powers into the game if arcane and divine casters can gain the same enhancements with feats.
Deekin
05-04-07, 12:19 PM Failing a Saving Throw against Mind-Affecting Powers

If you fail your save, you are unaware that you have been affected by a power.

Psionic is subtle.
Tempest Stormwind
05-04-07, 01:20 PM I remember Dark Sun emphasizing the alarmingly discreet Psionic powers to enhance the atmosphere of a brutal, paranoia-filled campaign setting. Arcane and Divine spellcasters usually have obvious indicators that allow casual observers to trace effects to them with few exceptions. The XPH has seemed to provide a means of making Psionicists more enticing to concerned DM's by now including visual, auditory, and sensory effects, which effectively makes the Psionicist less discreet as before.

...

Let's say a power "does" have all the firework special effects. Cityscape provides a feat to make a spell seem to come from somewhere else, and I'd allow such feats to enable more discreet powers into the game if arcane and divine casters can gain the same enhancements with feats.

1) Displays first showed up in their current form in 3.0 psionics.
2) Did you notice this?Dispense with Displays

Despite the fact that almost every power has a display, a psionic character can always choose to manifest the power without the flashy accompaniment. To manifest a power without any display (no matter how many displays it might have), a manifester must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the power). This check is part of the action of manifesting the power. If the check is unsuccessful, the power manifests normally with its display.

Even if a manifester manifests a power without a display, he is still subject to attacks of opportunity in appropriate circumstances. (Of course, another Concentration check can be made as normal to either manifest defensively or maintain the power if attacked.)
Lazigothi
05-04-07, 01:29 PM 1) Displays first showed up in their current form in 3.0 psionics.
2) Did you notice this?

1) I never played 3.0.

2) I am aware of the roll to negate the effects, but myself and players tend to roll 1's a lot. I assumed with the posted question that effects were not displayed with the power anyway.
Lazigothi
05-04-07, 01:37 PM Psionic is subtle.

I did not spot this. I recall reading in another section of the XPH where targets become aware of powers used on them. I wish I had my XPH with me at work. Is it mentioned per power, or otherwise in this particular power's description? I have not had a chance to read all of the powers yet.

I think with that in mind, my reply to the poster remains relevant on a failed saving throw, and I stand corrected. :tiphat:
Tempest Stormwind
05-04-07, 01:43 PM 1) See d20SRD.org. The XPH rules are all there.

2) Rolling a 1 on a skill check isn't an automatic failure. Recall as well that you can expend your focus to take 15 on any Concentration check. Sooner or later you can do it with any power you want, all the time -- and when a display DOES appear, your allies know you're in trouble.
Deekin
05-04-07, 01:48 PM I did not spot this. I recall reading in another section of the XPH where targets become aware of powers used on them. I wish I had my XPH with me at work. Is it mentioned per power, or otherwise in this particular power's description? I have not had a chance to read all of the powers yet.

I think with that in mind, my reply to the poster remains relevant on a failed saving throw, and I stand corrected. :tiphat:

It's in the section on saving throws, under power descriptions. Page 62.
Racinante
05-04-07, 01:53 PM Psionic is subtle.

However, if you make your save, you are aware that you were the target of a power. You still do not know who targetted you.
Grimmoloth
05-04-07, 04:55 PM I'm not familiar with the feat from cityscape but that sounds like a reasonable way to balance it. It seems a little unfair that just by making a concentration check 15+ spell that you'd completely undetected. A Psion or better yet Wilder could just pick off people and Bluff their way out of assumption. I run a evil free play campaign on the side and public attacks happen a lot. Maybe a spot would even it out?
Tempest Stormwind
05-04-07, 05:03 PM I'm not familiar with the feat from cityscape but that sounds like a reasonable way to balance it. It seems a little unfair that just by making a concentration check 15+ spell that you'd completely undetected. A Psion or better yet Wilder could just pick off people and Bluff their way out of assumption. I run a evil free play campaign on the side and public attacks happen a lot. Maybe a spot would even it out?

It's NOT undetected. If I don't hide the display when manifesting Astral Construct, my shaper's eyes stream emerald fire and astral mists coalesce about where the creature is to appear. If I DO hide the display, the creature appears to come from nowhere (though my shaper still appears to be concentrating -- meaning that she still provokes AoOs). The construct is NOT invisible, just the flashy displays that announce to the world "I'M REIMAGINING REALITY RIGHT NOW!".

For the evil campaign, though, you might be tempted to look at the LE link in my sig.
Candin
05-04-07, 06:18 PM In this particular situation I'm assuming you want to use your psionic powers to influence what a speak is saying.

If your DM is going to try to blow your cover, take time to become psionically focused. It takes 6 seconds (less if you take the feat), you've got the time, and you can blow your focus to take 15 on a concentration check (which should be applicable to the Concentration roll to manifest without effects).
AntiDjinn
05-04-07, 07:53 PM Even if you dispense with displays it doesn't mean everyone around you becomes stupid; they may still figure out who launched the attack, but they will have to do so by reasoning and intuition instead of a streak of light pointing back at you. If absolutely no one was being TK'ed through the air before you arrived, and now townsfolk are being launched out of windows and you are the only stranger in town, then they will probably figure it out and the fact that you hid displays won't matter.

In a very crowded situation people adjacent to you may note that you are concentrating. Most people will not know the significance of this action. They may simply assume you are concentrating on the speaker's words or that you are listening intently to the song being performed. Probably 99% of the time the fact that you seem distracted and that someone elsewhere falls to the ground bleeding out of his ears will not be connected if viewers are not psionics-savvy. But if questioned after the fact (by someone who knows what manifesting looks like) this may make you stand out in their minds. Anyone who could swat you is granted an attack off opportunity even if they don't avail themselves of it. You can probably handle this by surrounding yourself with allies; if all the spaces around you are filled then no one will be close enough to note that you are manifesting. Realize that this may be harder than it sounds; in a market place, or public entertainment event people may be much more tightly packed than is possible in melee. If only one person could be in a five by five space then the groundling area in front of a stage would be half again the size of the theater and sports colosseums would be so large that those in the nosebleed seats would literally get nosebleeds.

Also, if someone makes a Psicraft roll then they can name the exact power used. This means they know what kind of range is involved and how it is targeted so they can narrow down the areas from which the assailant could have sniped. If anyone is using active means of detection (such as Detect Psionics) then you are pretty much going to get fingered no matter how careful you are unless you manifest an active countermeasure.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grimmoloth 05-04-07, 09:38 AM	I noticed the rules in the book for what a powers display and with the exception of a few, most of them don't pin point the manifester. Here's an example; a Psion is in the middle of a crowd, a speaker on a stage 10ft away form him is his target. With Mindthrust would the Psion (assuming that the target failed his save and took damage) be noticed?
Lazigothi 05-04-07, 12:13 PM	I remember Dark Sun emphasizing the alarmingly discreet Psionic powers to enhance the atmosphere of a brutal, paranoia-filled campaign setting. Arcane and Divine spellcasters usually have obvious indicators that allow casual observers to trace effects to them with few exceptions. The XPH has seemed to provide a means of making Psionicists more enticing to concerned DM's by now including visual, auditory, and sensory effects, which effectively makes the Psionicist less discreet as before. Without reading the power's description, and assuming it lists no apparent special effects (and thus why you posed the question), I'd offer that, immediately, the target, at least, becomes aware of the Psionicist. Unless something else happens, the target should very much remember the event and should retaliate as befitting the campaign. To enact a power, the Psionicist always provokes an attack of opportunity, which means that the eyes perhaps glaze over/ or the gaze intensifies, and this might not at first appear out of the ordinary with everyone else in a crowd observing an orator and displaying similar facial expressions. As soon as the power happens, people in the crowd might get spot checks depending on how the orator has become altered. I might add circumstantial bonuses to those with Knowledge: Psionics. I'd also ask you how your Campaign setting handles Psionic powers in cities (in general, and/or this particular city). Not to intentionally "nerf" a good idea, but there might be a reasonable expectation to anticipate magical and/or psionic influence for anyone engaged in a public speach with common means to counteract them. There might be signs saying "No Divine/ Charm (etc.) Spells Allowed," a kind of Secret Service of defensive protection for Priests, Politicians, Nobles, etc. A random, alleyway citizen getting on a soapbox might not receive such elaborate protection, but the Mayor might when addressing the town hall. Likewise, the reverse might be true where the crowd would be protected in Lawful/Good societies. There might be specially designated arenas with anti-magic fields that protect everyone in the building. In such a setting, the character would know about the laws, who gets protected, typical means of protection, and it wouldn't otherwise come as a frustrating surprise when his power backfires/ gets negated. Let's say a power "does" have all the firework special effects. Cityscape provides a feat to make a spell seem to come from somewhere else, and I'd allow such feats to enable more discreet powers into the game if arcane and divine casters can gain the same enhancements with feats.
Deekin 05-04-07, 12:19 PM	Failing a Saving Throw against Mind-Affecting Powers If you fail your save, you are unaware that you have been affected by a power. Psionic is subtle.
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 01:20 PM	I remember Dark Sun emphasizing the alarmingly discreet Psionic powers to enhance the atmosphere of a brutal, paranoia-filled campaign setting. Arcane and Divine spellcasters usually have obvious indicators that allow casual observers to trace effects to them with few exceptions. The XPH has seemed to provide a means of making Psionicists more enticing to concerned DM's by now including visual, auditory, and sensory effects, which effectively makes the Psionicist less discreet as before. ... Let's say a power "does" have all the firework special effects. Cityscape provides a feat to make a spell seem to come from somewhere else, and I'd allow such feats to enable more discreet powers into the game if arcane and divine casters can gain the same enhancements with feats. 1) Displays first showed up in their current form in 3.0 psionics. 2) Did you notice this?Dispense with Displays Despite the fact that almost every power has a display, a psionic character can always choose to manifest the power without the flashy accompaniment. To manifest a power without any display (no matter how many displays it might have), a manifester must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the power). This check is part of the action of manifesting the power. If the check is unsuccessful, the power manifests normally with its display. Even if a manifester manifests a power without a display, he is still subject to attacks of opportunity in appropriate circumstances. (Of course, another Concentration check can be made as normal to either manifest defensively or maintain the power if attacked.)
Lazigothi 05-04-07, 01:29 PM	1) Displays first showed up in their current form in 3.0 psionics. 2) Did you notice this? 1) I never played 3.0. 2) I am aware of the roll to negate the effects, but myself and players tend to roll 1's a lot. I assumed with the posted question that effects were not displayed with the power anyway.
Lazigothi 05-04-07, 01:37 PM	Psionic is subtle. I did not spot this. I recall reading in another section of the XPH where targets become aware of powers used on them. I wish I had my XPH with me at work. Is it mentioned per power, or otherwise in this particular power's description? I have not had a chance to read all of the powers yet. I think with that in mind, my reply to the poster remains relevant on a failed saving throw, and I stand corrected. :tiphat:
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 01:43 PM	1) See d20SRD.org. The XPH rules are all there. 2) Rolling a 1 on a skill check isn't an automatic failure. Recall as well that you can expend your focus to take 15 on any Concentration check. Sooner or later you can do it with any power you want, all the time -- and when a display DOES appear, your allies know you're in trouble.
Deekin 05-04-07, 01:48 PM	I did not spot this. I recall reading in another section of the XPH where targets become aware of powers used on them. I wish I had my XPH with me at work. Is it mentioned per power, or otherwise in this particular power's description? I have not had a chance to read all of the powers yet. I think with that in mind, my reply to the poster remains relevant on a failed saving throw, and I stand corrected. :tiphat: It's in the section on saving throws, under power descriptions. Page 62.
Racinante 05-04-07, 01:53 PM	Psionic is subtle. However, if you make your save, you are aware that you were the target of a power. You still do not know who targetted you.
Grimmoloth 05-04-07, 04:55 PM	I'm not familiar with the feat from cityscape but that sounds like a reasonable way to balance it. It seems a little unfair that just by making a concentration check 15+ spell that you'd completely undetected. A Psion or better yet Wilder could just pick off people and Bluff their way out of assumption. I run a evil free play campaign on the side and public attacks happen a lot. Maybe a spot would even it out?
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 05:03 PM	I'm not familiar with the feat from cityscape but that sounds like a reasonable way to balance it. It seems a little unfair that just by making a concentration check 15+ spell that you'd completely undetected. A Psion or better yet Wilder could just pick off people and Bluff their way out of assumption. I run a evil free play campaign on the side and public attacks happen a lot. Maybe a spot would even it out? It's NOT undetected. If I don't hide the display when manifesting Astral Construct, my shaper's eyes stream emerald fire and astral mists coalesce about where the creature is to appear. If I DO hide the display, the creature appears to come from nowhere (though my shaper still appears to be concentrating -- meaning that she still provokes AoOs). The construct is NOT invisible, just the flashy displays that announce to the world "I'M REIMAGINING REALITY RIGHT NOW!". For the evil campaign, though, you might be tempted to look at the LE link in my sig.
Candin 05-04-07, 06:18 PM	In this particular situation I'm assuming you want to use your psionic powers to influence what a speak is saying. If your DM is going to try to blow your cover, take time to become psionically focused. It takes 6 seconds (less if you take the feat), you've got the time, and you can blow your focus to take 15 on a concentration check (which should be applicable to the Concentration roll to manifest without effects).
AntiDjinn 05-04-07, 07:53 PM	Even if you dispense with displays it doesn't mean everyone around you becomes stupid; they may still figure out who launched the attack, but they will have to do so by reasoning and intuition instead of a streak of light pointing back at you. If absolutely no one was being TK'ed through the air before you arrived, and now townsfolk are being launched out of windows and you are the only stranger in town, then they will probably figure it out and the fact that you hid displays won't matter. In a very crowded situation people adjacent to you may note that you are concentrating. Most people will not know the significance of this action. They may simply assume you are concentrating on the speaker's words or that you are listening intently to the song being performed. Probably 99% of the time the fact that you seem distracted and that someone elsewhere falls to the ground bleeding out of his ears will not be connected if viewers are not psionics-savvy. But if questioned after the fact (by someone who knows what manifesting looks like) this may make you stand out in their minds. Anyone who could swat you is granted an attack off opportunity even if they don't avail themselves of it. You can probably handle this by surrounding yourself with allies; if all the spaces around you are filled then no one will be close enough to note that you are manifesting. Realize that this may be harder than it sounds; in a market place, or public entertainment event people may be much more tightly packed than is possible in melee. If only one person could be in a five by five space then the groundling area in front of a stage would be half again the size of the theater and sports colosseums would be so large that those in the nosebleed seats would literally get nosebleeds. Also, if someone makes a Psicraft roll then they can name the exact power used. This means they know what kind of range is involved and how it is targeted so they can narrow down the areas from which the assailant could have sniped. If anyone is using active means of detection (such as Detect Psionics) then you are pretty much going to get fingered no matter how careful you are unless you manifest an active countermeasure.