Psionics & Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionics & Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
razorangel
03-28-07, 11:39 PM I'm not at home right now so I don't have access to my few books on hand, but I was wondering ... can Psionics affect undead? Mainly, in this instance, using Telepathy discipline powers?

If so or not, could you tell me where I could find the reference to this? I was thinking that unintelligent undead wouldn't have the needed ego to be affected, but that undead such as liches or vampires would... Help!
Bacris
03-28-07, 11:40 PM Undead as a subtype are immune to mind-affecting effects. Pretty sure most of the telepathy effects are mind-affecting.

Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.
Features: An undead creature has the following features.
snip...
—Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
AntiDjinn
03-28-07, 11:49 PM In general, telepathy is not the best discipline against undead, constructs, oozes, plants, vermin, and anything else immune to mind-affecting effects. There are exceptions: Personal Mind Blank will still stop a lich from scrying your location; he is immune to MB, but he isn't the target, you are, and it still stops anyone else from scrying you. If you are a telepath (for that matter, any psion) it is always a good idea to have a few key powers from outside your discipline.
razorangel
03-28-07, 11:59 PM Understood. I just read in the XP last night though where it said something like:

"Creatures who are immune to effects such as charm, dominate, & so on, are however not immune to Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, and so on..."

The example it gave directly was in reference to Elves. And while I know Undead aren't a species, things seem a little muddled here.
NthDegree256
03-29-07, 12:19 AM If you can find that quote again, could you post where it is? It seems to contradict this line in the SRD (which is presumably also in the XPH)...For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school (thus, creatures resistant to enchantment spells are equally resistant to telepathy powers).
link to the relevant page and section in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy)
Tempest Stormwind
03-29-07, 12:32 AM That line is in the variant rules on psionics-magic NONtransparency. His quote is missing a critical "magical" somewhere in it.

That entire section should have been slashed from the books.
razorangel
03-29-07, 12:32 AM It is at the beginning of the chapter in XP that talks about races, or the chapter that talks about monsters. I'm sorry, I'm not at home today and won't be for the weekend.
NthDegree256
03-29-07, 12:55 AM I think Tempest Stormwind is right - razorangel, the line you're quoting is probably from the variant "nontransparency" rule, and only applies if you're treating psionics and magic as completely different forces (which also means that an antimagic field would not nullify psionic powers, a creature with power resistance 32 would be defenseless against a level 1 wizard's magic missile, and even the spell mind blank wouldn't protect against the most basic of telepathic powers.)

And even with that variant rule, undead are still immune to all mind-affecting effects, not just magical ones. This is the point where your Telepath says "screw it" and takes the feat Expanded Knowledge (Control Body). :P
razorangel
03-29-07, 01:08 AM haha! That sounds like a workable idea, although I'll have to consider how it affects my original character concept. Thank you guys for your input. I'm not really looking for the need to mess with Undead, but we've got a lich & a perfected undead necromancer thingy in our group, and I just want to have some defense against them... Just in case.
Tempest Stormwind
03-29-07, 01:09 AM It is at the beginning of the chapter in XP that talks about races, or the chapter that talks about monsters. I'm sorry, I'm not at home today and won't be for the weekend.Oh, that one. XPH, page 183:Because undead are immune to mind-affecting effects (including charms and compulsions), they are particularly threatening to other psionic creatures and characters (especially telepaths).The second half of your misquote came from the part on the variant Psionics Is Different section, XPH, page 65:Spells and special abilities that protect the mind against enchantments cannot protect against psionic versions of the same effects. For instance, elves do not gain the +2 bonus on their Will saves against psionic charm that they do against magical charm person. Creatures protected from telepathy powers are vulnerable to enchantments.This is a VARIANT rule that they flat-out say is probably unbalanced (note: It is, but it can work if the DM is willing to triple his prep time for the sake of a bit of extra math and a lot of logical questions from the team, which I don't think is worth it).

And even with that variant rule, undead are still immune to all mind-affecting effects, not just magical ones. This is the point where your Telepath says "screw it" and takes the feat Expanded Knowledge (Control Body). :PYou mean EK:Astral construct. Control Body's saving throw is "Fortitude Negates". Undead are immune to all effects that require a fortitude save unless it works on objects -- and Control Body lacks the critical "(object)" after the saving throw.

(My DM found this out the hard way when he tried to Control Body an astral construct, which shares the same immunity.)

Generally, Astral Construct is considered the better power to borrow, anyway -- although with Control Body and the telepath Schism power, you can turn yourself into a rather passable fighting machine yourself (have the schism-mind control your body while you continue to manifest unabated; look at the results).
NthDegree256
03-29-07, 01:19 AM You mean EK:Astral construct. Control Body's saving throw is "Fortitude Negates". Undead are immune to all effects that require a fortitude save unless it works on objects -- and Control Body lacks the critical "(object)" after the saving throw.
Actually, the power's description specifically includes undead. You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid (including undead or outsiders with a humanoid physiology) that is within range and to which you have line of sight.

Generally, Astral Construct is considered the better power to borrow, anywayYes, but then you're missing out on the sheer humor value of a frustrated telepath who has to resort to manually controlling the mindless skeleton.
AntiDjinn
03-29-07, 01:27 AM As a telepath trying to deal with undead (and similar) you will find that there are two extra-disciplinary powers that can really carry the day, only one of which is not on the general list: Astral Construct and Time Hop.

Astral Construct: Even if its damage output is not spectacular, every one of them has the construct suite of immunities. So they are immune to fear, fatigue, poison, disease, energy drain, stat drain, necromantic effects, etc. That covers most of the special attacks of undead so an AC can go toe to toe with a corporeal undead of similar level and hold its own. It also means the dread necromancer commanding those undead is going to be fairly ineffectual.

Time Hop: If something mindless is shambling towards me I may not be able to tackle it, but I can put it on hold until another party member is in a position to do so. Or I can just leave while it is hopped out and figure a head start plus the fact that it doesn't know which way I went will keep it off my back.
Friendlyfish
03-29-07, 03:53 AM Or, if you're a bit higher level and you're fond of psionic dominate as I am, hopefully you've brought along all your dominated thralls from previous encounters and you can toss your fodder at them. Meat vs. meat. You can supplement with Astral Construct if you want, or just blow them up with energy barrage.

I find my style of play works well; I have Greater Power Penetration so SR/PR isn't an issue much, and my save DCs are totally maxed out so that nobody saves much either.

My battle flow chart with my telepath/thrallherd goes like this.

Meat w/ brainz?
-Psionic dominate it.
Not meat w/ brainz?
-Throw enslaved meat at it until it dies.
Still resisting?
-Blow it up. (Energy barrage at high levels; energy stun at low.)
That didn't work?
-Time hop until somebody else in the party kills it.
bholdr_mage
03-29-07, 09:35 PM Yeah, the telepath has the smae vulnerabilities to undead/constructs/blah blah can't be effected by mind like spells, critical hits and the like as the illusionist and the enchanter. There's been a couple of good suggestions above; but outside of dominating a mind affectable (word?) critter and expanded knowledge, you might have to resort to a bludgeoning weapon.

At least the wizards above have lots of spells and more options to choose from...:(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
razorangel 03-28-07, 11:39 PM	I'm not at home right now so I don't have access to my few books on hand, but I was wondering ... can Psionics affect undead? Mainly, in this instance, using Telepathy discipline powers? If so or not, could you tell me where I could find the reference to this? I was thinking that unintelligent undead wouldn't have the needed ego to be affected, but that undead such as liches or vampires would... Help!
Bacris 03-28-07, 11:40 PM	Undead as a subtype are immune to mind-affecting effects. Pretty sure most of the telepathy effects are mind-affecting. Undead Type: Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces. Features: An undead creature has the following features. snip... —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
AntiDjinn 03-28-07, 11:49 PM	In general, telepathy is not the best discipline against undead, constructs, oozes, plants, vermin, and anything else immune to mind-affecting effects. There are exceptions: Personal Mind Blank will still stop a lich from scrying your location; he is immune to MB, but he isn't the target, you are, and it still stops anyone else from scrying you. If you are a telepath (for that matter, any psion) it is always a good idea to have a few key powers from outside your discipline.
razorangel 03-28-07, 11:59 PM	Understood. I just read in the XP last night though where it said something like: "Creatures who are immune to effects such as charm, dominate, & so on, are however not immune to Psionic Charm, Psionic Dominate, and so on..." The example it gave directly was in reference to Elves. And while I know Undead aren't a species, things seem a little muddled here.
NthDegree256 03-29-07, 12:19 AM	If you can find that quote again, could you post where it is? It seems to contradict this line in the SRD (which is presumably also in the XPH)...For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school (thus, creatures resistant to enchantment spells are equally resistant to telepathy powers). link to the relevant page and section in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy)
Tempest Stormwind 03-29-07, 12:32 AM	That line is in the variant rules on psionics-magic NONtransparency. His quote is missing a critical "magical" somewhere in it. That entire section should have been slashed from the books.
razorangel 03-29-07, 12:32 AM	It is at the beginning of the chapter in XP that talks about races, or the chapter that talks about monsters. I'm sorry, I'm not at home today and won't be for the weekend.
NthDegree256 03-29-07, 12:55 AM	I think Tempest Stormwind is right - razorangel, the line you're quoting is probably from the variant "nontransparency" rule, and only applies if you're treating psionics and magic as completely different forces (which also means that an antimagic field would not nullify psionic powers, a creature with power resistance 32 would be defenseless against a level 1 wizard's magic missile, and even the spell mind blank wouldn't protect against the most basic of telepathic powers.) And even with that variant rule, undead are still immune to all mind-affecting effects, not just magical ones. This is the point where your Telepath says "screw it" and takes the feat Expanded Knowledge (Control Body). :P
razorangel 03-29-07, 01:08 AM	haha! That sounds like a workable idea, although I'll have to consider how it affects my original character concept. Thank you guys for your input. I'm not really looking for the need to mess with Undead, but we've got a lich & a perfected undead necromancer thingy in our group, and I just want to have some defense against them... Just in case.
Tempest Stormwind 03-29-07, 01:09 AM	It is at the beginning of the chapter in XP that talks about races, or the chapter that talks about monsters. I'm sorry, I'm not at home today and won't be for the weekend.Oh, that one. XPH, page 183:Because undead are immune to mind-affecting effects (including charms and compulsions), they are particularly threatening to other psionic creatures and characters (especially telepaths).The second half of your misquote came from the part on the variant Psionics Is Different section, XPH, page 65:Spells and special abilities that protect the mind against enchantments cannot protect against psionic versions of the same effects. For instance, elves do not gain the +2 bonus on their Will saves against psionic charm that they do against magical charm person. Creatures protected from telepathy powers are vulnerable to enchantments.This is a VARIANT rule that they flat-out say is probably unbalanced (note: It is, but it can work if the DM is willing to triple his prep time for the sake of a bit of extra math and a lot of logical questions from the team, which I don't think is worth it). And even with that variant rule, undead are still immune to all mind-affecting effects, not just magical ones. This is the point where your Telepath says "screw it" and takes the feat Expanded Knowledge (Control Body). :PYou mean EK:Astral construct. Control Body's saving throw is "Fortitude Negates". Undead are immune to all effects that require a fortitude save unless it works on objects -- and Control Body lacks the critical "(object)" after the saving throw. (My DM found this out the hard way when he tried to Control Body an astral construct, which shares the same immunity.) Generally, Astral Construct is considered the better power to borrow, anyway -- although with Control Body and the telepath Schism power, you can turn yourself into a rather passable fighting machine yourself (have the schism-mind control your body while you continue to manifest unabated; look at the results).
NthDegree256 03-29-07, 01:19 AM	You mean EK:Astral construct. Control Body's saving throw is "Fortitude Negates". Undead are immune to all effects that require a fortitude save unless it works on objects -- and Control Body lacks the critical "(object)" after the saving throw. Actually, the power's description specifically includes undead. You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid (including undead or outsiders with a humanoid physiology) that is within range and to which you have line of sight. Generally, Astral Construct is considered the better power to borrow, anywayYes, but then you're missing out on the sheer humor value of a frustrated telepath who has to resort to manually controlling the mindless skeleton.
AntiDjinn 03-29-07, 01:27 AM	As a telepath trying to deal with undead (and similar) you will find that there are two extra-disciplinary powers that can really carry the day, only one of which is not on the general list: Astral Construct and Time Hop. Astral Construct: Even if its damage output is not spectacular, every one of them has the construct suite of immunities. So they are immune to fear, fatigue, poison, disease, energy drain, stat drain, necromantic effects, etc. That covers most of the special attacks of undead so an AC can go toe to toe with a corporeal undead of similar level and hold its own. It also means the dread necromancer commanding those undead is going to be fairly ineffectual. Time Hop: If something mindless is shambling towards me I may not be able to tackle it, but I can put it on hold until another party member is in a position to do so. Or I can just leave while it is hopped out and figure a head start plus the fact that it doesn't know which way I went will keep it off my back.
Friendlyfish 03-29-07, 03:53 AM	Or, if you're a bit higher level and you're fond of psionic dominate as I am, hopefully you've brought along all your dominated thralls from previous encounters and you can toss your fodder at them. Meat vs. meat. You can supplement with Astral Construct if you want, or just blow them up with energy barrage. I find my style of play works well; I have Greater Power Penetration so SR/PR isn't an issue much, and my save DCs are totally maxed out so that nobody saves much either. My battle flow chart with my telepath/thrallherd goes like this. Meat w/ brainz? -Psionic dominate it. Not meat w/ brainz? -Throw enslaved meat at it until it dies. Still resisting? -Blow it up. (Energy barrage at high levels; energy stun at low.) That didn't work? -Time hop until somebody else in the party kills it.
bholdr_mage 03-29-07, 09:35 PM	Yeah, the telepath has the smae vulnerabilities to undead/constructs/blah blah can't be effected by mind like spells, critical hits and the like as the illusionist and the enchanter. There's been a couple of good suggestions above; but outside of dominating a mind affectable (word?) critter and expanded knowledge, you might have to resort to a bludgeoning weapon. At least the wizards above have lots of spells and more options to choose from...:(