Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GawainBS 07-12-07, 12:23 PM	Apparently, they are, according to some on in this thread, because they can do 23d4 slashing damage in 15ft cone, if you take three feats. This makes them so out-of-line with other core classes, that they are absurdly broken. :) http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeons-and-dragons-24/whats-you-biggest-gripe-with-d-d-rules-89717.html Oh, btw, according to this thread, a wizard can't do such powerful broken stuff. ;) Please, do not take anything here too seriously.
Tempest Stormwind 07-12-07, 01:25 PM	Let's see what one can deduce from his reasoning. Magic missile having a maximum of 25 points of damage versus a second level radius effect slashing damage power that has only a maximum of your level. Translation: I live in a utopian society where all things cost the same, and that cost is FREE. ...an 8th level psion can be the equivelant of a 10th level psion at the cost of very few extra power points and NOTHING else. A wizard trying to do the same thing would have to increase the spell level making his ability to cast that spell less frequent. Translation: This utopian society has transcended the need for basic education, as I cannot tell the difference between power point costs and spell levels. We also have no need to tell time here, which explains why I ignore the all-so-important action cost to refocus, and since it's a utopia, there's no such thing as an opportunity cost (feats) either. (On a side note, not every psion can manage Psionic Meditation. My own shaper makes reasonably frequent use of her psionic focus, but has only a 10 Wisdom, since it isn't all that key an ability to a psion. Thus, she can't take Psionic Meditation). Here's an example of probably the best you could do with a wolf animal companion by level 20 in Druid. Translation: Did I mention that we're a utopia because of tradition? No one ever changes anything. That's why my druid's still using a wolf at level 20 as opposed to, say, a tyrannosaurus (with Swallow Whole and all). (Editor's note: He also didn't go with the riding dog trained for war, which is superior to the wolf in every regard as a level 1 companion.) So yes, the druid is a bit overpowered if you know what your doing, but if you go standard, it's just as balanced as any other class. I can make a fighter overpowered too, or a barbarian, or a paladin even (and that class is god awful). Translation: Egalitarian treatment even in the face of class disparity as intense as the druid vs the fighter. See, we ARE a utopia! I'd go on, but it's obvious we're in two different worlds here.
Anodai 07-12-07, 01:34 PM	These people make me sad
Nercrominionicon 07-12-07, 01:52 PM	After reading that thread, I want to cry.
GawainBS 07-12-07, 01:53 PM	Tempest, you made me laugh and spoil my drink on my keyboard. :d It's so sad to put fore arguments and then see him ignoring them.
Mælstrøm 07-12-07, 02:38 PM	Gorramn powergamers. We should nuke'em till they glow, then shoot'em in the dark! free interpretation of what Jayne (Firefly/Serenity) might have said ;) ;) :D :D
Tempest Stormwind 07-12-07, 02:39 PM	Tempest, you made me laugh and spoil my drink on my keyboard. :d It's so sad to put fore arguments and then see him ignoring them. Feel free to link him to that or quote me (he's already declared his willing ignorance (i.e. "I don't know and I don't to know"), so you may need to quote instead of link). And while you're at it, point Pandaroon to the marshal variant in my signature. Sounds like he'd like it. Psionic characters are easier to play and play well than wizards. However, a well-played psion produces results on par with an AVERAGE wizard AT BEST, and that assumes he's blowing points very quickly. If you put just a tiny bit of effort into the wizard (or any core full caster)... well, if the campaign world is standing afterward, the DM's had to fudge some things. Maelstrom: Of course, *I* am a powergamer... I enjoy having characters who are good at what they do, and who don't die quickly. You can't RP if you're dead, and in the life-or-death existence of a fantasy adventurer, power equates to life.
Mælstrøm 07-12-07, 03:09 PM	[...]Psionic characters are easier to play and play well than wizards. However, a well-played psion produces results on par with an AVERAGE wizard AT BEST, and that assumes he's blowing points very quickly. If you put just a tiny bit of effort into the wizard (or any core full caster)... well, if the campaign world is standing afterward, the DM's had to fudge some things.Wonderfully said!! I wholeheartedly agree :) Maelstrom: Of course, *I* am a powergamer... I enjoy having characters who are good at what they do, and who don't die quickly. You can't RP if you're dead, and in the life-or-death existence of a fantasy adventurer, power equates to life.Well, in that regard, I am a powergamer as well - but I differentiate between well-done builds and people who always try to get the ubermost best and then some, and who do not fret to change the rules for their benefit. When I alter a class and suggest it (either here or to a GM), it is remade with balance in mind, whereas some just make it better and better. I can see that some people don't even see that their build or their changes may be in their favor, and that to them it does not seem like powergaming, and I respect that. I just reserve the right to not play with these people ;) (and, frankly, up until now I have always had the good luck to find, from my point of view, reasonable gamers ;))
GawainBS 07-12-07, 03:20 PM	Feel free to link him to that or quote me (he's already declared his willing ignorance (i.e. "I don't know and I don't to know"), so you may need to quote instead of link). And while you're at it, point Pandaroon to the marshal variant in my signature. Sounds like he'd like it. Psionic characters are easier to play and play well than wizards. However, a well-played psion produces results on par with an AVERAGE wizard AT BEST, and that assumes he's blowing points very quickly. If you put just a tiny bit of effort into the wizard (or any core full caster)... well, if the campaign world is standing afterward, the DM's had to fudge some things. Maelstrom: Of course, *I* am a powergamer... I enjoy having characters who are good at what they do, and who don't die quickly. You can't RP if you're dead, and in the life-or-death existence of a fantasy adventurer, power equates to life. Tempest, in all, honesty, do you think that quoting will help sway his mind?:) I thought I made some quite clear arguments, but he plain ignores them. Especially the part about "those reasons why Psionics aren't broken according to the Wizard boards are because they're deribatly unbroken." Explaining how a feat works, is making an unbroken build?? :confused: As for Pandaroon, he's actually Vidahr who lurks around here sometimes. He was just making fun of them, knowing him. :) But the build seems cool, now that I look at it. Also, I have to support the claim that a "realistic" adventurer is probably what those people from that thread would call "broken." The "unbroken" adventurers are dead by level 5. ;) Nothing beats your Dragoon, though.
Eerongal 07-12-07, 03:26 PM	what's wrong with you people, psionics are liek teh ub3r br0k3nz! [/sarcasm] Joking aside, i would just like to comment and say that i don't like psionics. Mostly for the flavor and kinda on the mechanics. Nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea so to speak. However, i have a friend who is very big into psionics, and pretty easily can fall into the category of power gamer. And i would like to state that from experience playing with him so much, that i can never agree with the argument of psionics being broken. The main reason people seem to jump at arms when they hear about psionics and calling it broken etc, etc, is because they don't fully know the system, and have little to no experience to it. People hear about all the time how a psion can use a (insert low level power number here) to deal (higher number)D(die size) damage, but what they don't hear about is the fact that this is going to take like 2-3 rounds of prep for, or it's going to blow virtually ALL of their power for the day, or it's going to be negated in a rather simple fashion, etc. At the end of the day, i think the whole psionics = broken argument is really just a knee-jerk reaction before people actually know the full story.
TheDarkLord 07-12-07, 09:43 PM	Wow, I can't believe I followed that link (or that my computer at work actually allowed me to anyway). Anyway, Siberys???, is an idiot... Ninja Assassins used Spiked Chains. Tell me something... how much of that sentence makes sense? What is a Ninja Assassin? Aren't they the same thing? And why would a Ninja Assassin carry around something as clunky as a spiked chain? Can't they use their +5 uranium katana's of Invisibility and 2nd edition speed factors?
Tempest Stormwind 07-12-07, 11:14 PM	Aha! I've got it now. Understanding that he's from a utopian society sheds insight into his thought processes. To him, if something isn't idyllic enough to appear on Care Bears, it's "broken". To him, this is a binary state -- you can't be "more broken", just broken. This explains why he says it's easy to make a psion broken and that he could optimize a fighter into brokenness. In his definition, "broken" means "good at their job".
Wizard Random 07-12-07, 11:33 PM	I am bookmarking this thread, I can't pass up this opritunity to show to to some of my friends.
Rhonin the Big 07-13-07, 12:27 AM	New board tradition, anytime somebody posts an (insert new magic or combat system here) is broken thread, everybody should quote this in unison (just replace psionics for the target system). How many idiots can there be? Some say that there's one out of three. If psionics are broken to thee You're the dee-dee-dee! And if you are a dee Go play a psion or three. Cuz than you'll finally see you play d & dee-dee-dee!
Deekin 07-13-07, 01:29 AM	Wow, I can't believe I followed that link (or that my computer at work actually allowed me to anyway). Anyway, Siberys???, is an idiot... Ninja Assassins used Spiked Chains. Tell me something... how much of that sentence makes sense? What is a Ninja Assassin? Aren't they the same thing? And why would a Ninja Assassin carry around something as clunky as a spiked chain? Can't they use their +5 uranium katana's of Invisibility and 2nd edition speed factors? Elven Ninja 5/Assassin 10 with a spiked chain? What's the problem with that?
Enchanter_Tom 07-13-07, 01:50 AM	With a uranium spiked chain.
Tsuul 07-13-07, 01:57 AM	It's an elitist point of view. The common man can't possibly be allowed the responsibility of power.
Tealgorthian 07-13-07, 02:46 AM	Someone failed their save VS Feeblemind! Wonder if that is the same Siberys that posts around here? Usually over on the Eberron boards.
CrimsonDeath 07-13-07, 04:06 AM	So, did everyone just kind of skim over the first post? The one where he said Dex plays too small a role in combat? That's about the point I figured the thread wasn't going to include a single relevant or sensible argument.
Asadeseth 07-13-07, 06:35 AM	I actualy got into an argument about Psionics in RL with a guy at a LARP one day. Drew a rather large group of people, the guy was convenced they were broken, and would go back to stuff from 2nd ed and convently forget about things like the fact other casters have beter saves or dies. Then a person who was watching asked if said person thought that druids were balanced, he said "Yes, while they have some power, it is narowly(SP) focased and therefor balacanced". At this point ever one started to walk away, I dont think he realised why he lost the argument.
GawainBS 07-13-07, 12:00 PM	So, did everyone just kind of skim over the first post? The one where he said Dex plays too small a role in combat? That's about the point I figured the thread wasn't going to include a single relevant or sensible argument. How so? I hoped to get a technical discussion about the rules. I wasn't trying to rewrite the system or some such, just thinking of oddities in the rules. (Like the Expert-issue). :) I do agree it got out of hand, and I also admit that I had to restrain myself from turning overtly sarcastic at some points.
primemover003 07-13-07, 12:40 PM	Dex not play an important role??? Dex is by far the most used stat in the game for every class. Str = to Hit, damage Dex = AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative, Ranged attacks Con = hp's, Fort save Int = nothing directly in combat Wis = Will saves Chr = nothing directly in combat. That guys view of psionics is completely skewed...
Enchanter_Tom 07-13-07, 01:01 PM	Dex not play an important role??? Dex is by far the most used stat in the game for every class. Str = to Hit, damage Dex = AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative, Ranged attacks Con = hp's, Fort save Int = nothing directly in combat Wis = Will saves Chr = nothing directly in combat. That guys view of psionics is completely skewed... Constitution > Dexterity.
Tempest Stormwind 07-13-07, 01:08 PM	Constitution > Dexterity. Have all the hit points you want. With a high enough Dexterity, I go first. Actions are the most important resource in D&D. A high Dexterity ensures you act first, which lets you deny your opponents their actions, either through debilitating victory-granting effects or flat-out ending the opponent. (Oh, and out of combat, the most common of the three saves is likely Reflex, for traps. Guess what ability score hits that.)
InkBlot 07-13-07, 01:11 PM	Dex not play an important role??? Dex is by far the most used stat in the game for every class. Str = to Hit, damage Dex = AC, Reflex Saves, Initiative, Ranged attacks Con = hp's, Fort save Int = nothing directly in combat Wis = Will saves Chr = nothing directly in combat. That guys view of psionics is completely skewed... Int, Wis, and Cha all influence spell/power/ability save DCs and bonus spells/power points of various classes. Only the barbarian, rogue, and fighter don't need have something special to use a mental stat for. Of course, most characters will only need one mental stat, and physical scores are still more important for melee classes. But a paladin who uses his spells is going to be at least slightly more effective than one who completely ignores them.
Mercurius 07-13-07, 01:20 PM	Actions are the most important resource in D&D. A high Dexterity ensures you act first, which lets you deny your opponents their actions, either through debilitating victory-granting effects or flat-out ending the opponent. It statistically ensures you act first. Having played a high Dex dervish alongside a high dexterity Improved Initiative rogue in my last campaign, I lost track of how often the full plate cleric and fighter beat us out at initiative. Just because you have a bigger modifier doesn't ensure anything. It just looks that way on paper.
InkBlot 07-13-07, 02:12 PM	It does ensure you act first more often than not. It doesn't make you always act first. That would be silly. I'm sure if you tallied up exactly how many times you or that rogue went before the cleric or fighter, you'd see that. Unless you had less than 20 combats over the course of that game. If the sample is too small statistics become unreliable.
Tsuul 07-13-07, 03:32 PM	And, technically speaking, there is a point where it guarantees you to go first. But that is way outside the norm.
primemover003 07-13-07, 03:37 PM	Yes the mental stats do have an impact on combat, but the amount of spells you can cast per day doesn't neccessarily (you'll still probably only cast one spell/power per round in most circumstances) and the DC's obviously tie into the saving throws... but hands down Dexterity influences more rolls than any other stat. Every base class can benefit from Higher Dexterity moreso than any other stat. Even Fullplate wearing Fighters and Clerics will be better if they act faster in Initiative, have better ranged attack rolls, or even get more AoO's form Combat Reflexes. It's just the most heavily weighted stat in the game. My PsyWar 11 lives and dies on his Dex. Currently he's suffering a -15 point Str Penalty (currently 3 because of Bul's Str)! I can't even wield my primary weapon, but I can still shoot my bow reasonably well because of my 20 Dex!
Mercurius 07-13-07, 04:04 PM	It does ensure you act first more often than not. It doesn't make you always act first. That would be silly. I'm sure if you tallied up exactly how many times you or that rogue went before the cleric or fighter, you'd see that. Unless you had less than 20 combats over the course of that game. If the sample is too small statistics become unreliable. Actually, the sheer number of times the rogue rolled a 1 on his initiative checks defies logic (he usually critted when he managed to hit with his bow, though, so it sort of evened out), and I seldom rolled above a 10. It was sort of a running gag in our group, but it's just an odd improbability in the dice. Just pointing out that "ensure" was loaded... unlike our dice.
GawainBS 07-13-07, 06:27 PM	If you put it that way, Dex is pretty important. Not that I don't want it to be, since I'm a Dex-based Bladesinger. Maybe I was comparing D&D too much to stuff like GURPS, Vampire and the system of Wizardry 8 or Arcanum. This is the sort of thing I imagined for the original thread. But, anyways, Tempest gave us quite the laugh. ;) Btw, in the Gamebanshee thread, Syberis has turned to threatening. All in all, funny. I have to add: this is isn't represantative of the Gamebanshee-community. They're great folks who're always ready to help you out.
Tealgorthian 07-13-07, 06:37 PM	If you put it that way, Dex is pretty important. Not that I don't want it to be, since I'm a Dex-based Bladesinger. Maybe I was comparing D&D too much to stuff like GURPS, Vampire and the system of Wizardry 8 or Arcanum. This is the sort of thing I imagined for the original thread. But, anyways, Tempest gave u quite the laugh. ;) Btw, in the Gamebanshee thread, Syberis has turned to threatening. All in all, funny. The guy might have been out of line (it looked tongue-in-cheek to me), but warning someone in a thread you are debating in is just bad form. In any forum I run, that would be a FAST way to get yourself stripped of moderator-hood. Of course, I'd never allow my moderators to use their mod account as a posting account IN THE FIRST PLACE. Initiative in the most important stat in D&D, IMHO. Improved Initiative is one of the most powerful feats. My favorite fighter classes all give bonuses to Init. (Swordsage FTW.) If I have a familiar for a spellcaster, it is almost always a hummingbird (+4 Init.. Dragon Magazine)
DarkTouch 07-13-07, 06:52 PM	what killed this whole thing for me was the "As someone who has studied Kendo...". Its like a big brand that says "I'm an arogant tool." and disregards most arguements. Its like an RPG equivalent of the Nazi rule.
CrimsonDeath 07-13-07, 11:16 PM	The Kendo Correlary to Godwin's Law?
Bopple 07-13-07, 11:30 PM	You cannot say it one way or the other, until you finish statistically calculating death rate difference between Dex char and Con char.
TheDarkLord 07-14-07, 12:19 AM	Yep, it's not who strikes first, but who strikes last.
Holy_Beholder 07-14-07, 12:58 AM	They tend to be the same person.
progresslevel9 07-14-07, 04:08 AM	when ninth level spells or ToB-boosted pouncing are involved, anyways.
Sharassir 07-14-07, 09:13 AM	here is the BIGGEST THING. DND ITSELF IS BROKEN. It is a Set of Rules which aren't always worded well. Any and All Lawyers should be able to easily completely screw with loopholes to make any character powerful beyond anything. This will probally always be so. I Do find it funny that the guy basically refused to read the Links..What a Idiot.
WackyOne 07-14-07, 10:49 AM	Thank you for the link. It was a needed vent. Needed as my group tended to think similarly. They got the point when proved wrong, at least :)
DarkTouch 07-14-07, 01:50 PM	The Kendo Correlary to Godwin's Law? You Sir, get a cookie for sucintness..
TheCobra 07-14-07, 02:11 PM	Dex not play an important role??? Dex is by far the most used stat in the game for every class. I haven't seen this at the table. DEX is a useful stat, but it's nothing compared with your spellcasting stat. That's what really matters. Spells can get you far more bonuses to AC and initiative than DEX can (unless you really focus on it). Melee types don't care much about DEX, because heavy armor limits the bonus, and they need STR for damage and attack bonus. I kind of agree that DEX should be more important in combat, many because I think to hit being based on STR is stupid. Hitting and getting through armor need to be separated.
GawainBS 07-14-07, 02:20 PM	As much as I like Dex, I think such a rule would bog down gameplay. The notion of seperating hitting & penetrating is a good one, though. On a side note: the Thread at Gamebanshee is closed since it was no longer a discussion... :rolleyes:
celestialkin 07-14-07, 02:47 PM	Apparently, they are, according to some on in this thread, because they can do 23d4 slashing damage in 15ft cone, if you take three feats. This makes them so out-of-line with other core classes, that they are absurdly broken. :) http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/dungeons-and-dragons-24/whats-you-biggest-gripe-with-d-d-rules-89717.html Oh, btw, according to this thread, a wizard can't do such powerful broken stuff. ;) Please, do not take anything here too seriously. I find this very disappointing. It reminds me of the people in my local store/area. Only one DM would allow me to play Psionics, because everyone there insists "They are broken!", and even then he later forced me to use the Complete Psionics book if I wanted to keep on playing a Psionic character. Needless to say, I no longer have any place to play my favorite classes. :(
Lycanthromancer 07-14-07, 03:35 PM	By the way, Gawain, there is no such word as 'boni.' It's 'bonuses.' That always irks me (almost as much as when people play 'rouges').
GawainBS 07-14-07, 03:41 PM	By the way, Gawain, there is no such word as 'boni.' It's 'bonuses.' That always irks me (almost as much as when people play 'rouges'). Sorry, but it's kind of job-disfigurement. I study Ancient History and have to read a lot of Latin, so I have the tendency to make the plural of words on "-us" with an "i". Some with Museum. For me, that's "two musea". It just happens when I type, I'm not aware of it. :)
Tealgorthian 07-14-07, 03:56 PM	Wow. The moderator got pissy and had someone else close the thread. Really makes me never want to join that board. "They are broken because I said so! I will continue to remain willfully ignorant of the facts, and get mad if you cite examples of how I am wrong!" What a freaking troll.
Tempest Stormwind 07-14-07, 04:14 PM	Sorry, but it's kind of job-disfigurement. I study Ancient History and have to read a lot of Latin, so I have the tendency to make the plural of words on "-us" with an "i". Some with Museum. For me, that's "two musea". It just happens when I type, I'm not aware of it. :) Actually, Latin pluralization is not always -i, even on -us words. Don't ask me what the rule is; as near as I can tell Latin's "rules of grammar" are more convoluted and guideline-esque than the Pirate's Code. ("Here, memorize this phone book.")
SokenzanMarauder 07-14-07, 04:22 PM	Wow. The moderator got pissy and had someone else close the thread. Really makes me never want to join that board. "They are broken because I said so! I will continue to remain willfully ignorant of the facts, and get mad if you cite examples of how I am wrong!" What a freaking troll. What's worse is the fact that he handed out warn levels because a guy posted a link to the psionics aren't overpowered thread and told him to come up with a real reason as to why he thought the way he did. What a douche, glad I'm not a member there. -Gene
Lycanthromancer 07-14-07, 04:29 PM	What's worse is the fact that he handed out warn levels because a guy posted a link to the psionics aren't overpowered thread and told him to come up with a real reason as to why he thought the way he did. What a douche, glad I'm not a member there. -GeneIndeed. I'm not getting an account there, any time soon.
GawainBS 07-14-07, 06:26 PM	Actually, Latin pluralization is not always -i, even on -us words. Don't ask me what the rule is; as near as I can tell Latin's "rules of grammar" are more convoluted and guideline-esque than the Pirate's Code. ("Here, memorize this phone book.") Actually, 90% of those words are "-i" in plural. Only those whose genitive (the possessive form, for those of us who have a life) is also "-us", instead of "-i" like those 90%, are in plural once again "-us". Bonus meaning the adjective "good", actually has "-i" as plural. Tempest, if you think Latin grammar is convoluted, try (ancient) Greek grammar. Check those verbs... ;) Oh, and don't be scared away from Gamebanshee by this guy. This was the first time I saw someone over there acting like a pain-in-the-ass.
Mælstrøm 07-14-07, 07:58 PM	You just had to go and do it, Tempest...
Lycanthromancer 07-14-07, 09:58 PM	Oh, and don't be scared away from Gamebanshee by this guy. This was the first time I saw someone over there acting like a pain-in-the-ass.It wouldn't bother me, except he's a frikkin' moderator. They actually give people like that responsibility? (Also, it's nice that I got a rather lengthy quote. I take it that that particular post is circulating rather widely wherever the power of wizards is in question. :) )
Tealgorthian 07-14-07, 10:40 PM	I still wonder if that is the Siberys that posts here on the WoTC boards. I agree with Lycanthromancer. If he is a mod, then that is a scary, scary place to be. I've been apart of board systems with powertrippy mods before. Don't feel like doing it again.
Holy_Beholder 07-15-07, 12:32 AM	here is the BIGGEST THING. DND ITSELF IS BROKEN. It is a Set of Rules which aren't always worded well. Any and All Lawyers should be able to easily completely screw with loopholes to make any character powerful beyond anything. This will probally always be so. I Do find it funny that the guy basically refused to read the Links..What a Idiot. What does that make most real legal system?
TheDarkLord 07-15-07, 12:45 AM	What does that make most real legal system? Well, in America (the country I live in and love), our legal system sucks. Adopting a more Common Law system would be better IMO (no I'm not a Nazi liberal). For Instance, murder might not be written down in a book somewhere as law, but it is a commonly accepted that murder is wrong and should be punished accordingly. DnD has a similar principle, it's called Rule Zero. And as probably the most Lax DM EVAR, I highly support this rule for the premise it keeps the game fun. So if a majority of players agree on something as "Broken" then I will houserule it so it isn't "Broken" anymore.
ShinoAburame 07-15-07, 01:05 AM	The system 3.5 psionics doesn't make casters (or "manifestors") godly, and most of the classes are relatively balanced. With a few edges off soulknife and wilder. Let's compare in brokenage. Arcane Casters: Wizard: Arguably very broken, but atleast is costly. Sorcerer: Horribly underpowerd, but atleast has full-casting. Spelltheif: Theoreticaly balanced, but the lack of playing says it's underpowerd. Bard: Underpowerd, argued that it's a social and not a combat class, but still underpowerd. You want a social class, play Vampire: The Masqerade, not Dungeons&Dragons! Warlock: Arguably broken and underpowerd, in theory, it's balanced because the arguments are about even. Divine Casters: Druid: No question, broken. Cleric: The only arguments against it not being tottaly broken are that somehow class balance is irrelevant to a more economic system of supply and demand. Sense very few people want to play a cleric and thus little demand, the supply in power is abundant. Rules shouldn't work like that for a friggin game people! Paladin: Considerd one of the worst classes ever. Not even from an alignment perspective, just game mechanic wise! Ranger: Underpowerd, and almost as unplayed as the spelltheif. Archivist: Like the spelltheif, it's theoreticaly balanced as I don't hear any complaints. But the silence in it's usage speaks for itself. Psionics: Psion: Played alot, I hear alot about how in theory it can be so broken, but in practice this never happens. Most just endup playing a psion for the sheer fun of psionics. Psychic-Warrior: Supposedly broken because it has nearly as many feats as a fighter while being a manifestor, this doesn't take into consideration the fighter sucks big red dragonballs! And the psychic-warrior neither has rants about being under or overpowerd! Psychic-Rogue: Rarely if ever played, implying an underpowerd edge. Wilder: Commonly complained about being underpowerd. Soulknife: Constantly complained about the underpowerd nature of the soulknife but loving the fluff.
TheCobra 07-15-07, 01:13 AM	Sorcerer: Horribly underpowerd, but atleast has full-casting. And that's all you need. Sorcerers are still quite powerful. Bard: Underpowerd, argued that it's a social and not a combat class, but still underpowerd. Bards are fine. They're only underpowered compared with full casters. They're excellent group buffers, but can also survive on their own. (At least if built for that role.) Paladin: Considerd one of the worst classes ever. Not even from an alignment perspective, just game mechanic wise! I've never really agreed with that. Even in core, paladins get great saves. The Spell Compendium gives paladins bunches of amazing spells. Complete Champion lets him casts of them as swift actions. Paladins are very nova based, but they sure can nova. Ranger: Underpowerd, and almost as unplayed as the spelltheif. Huh?
calronmoonflower 07-15-07, 03:00 AM	It is a bit funny, but also very sad at the same time. :nonono: I find Siberys's claims to be absurd. Comparing a 1st level spell like Magic Missile to a power that would equal the cost of a 11th (23 PP) level power is not a valid argument. :rant: Also dismissing the math based on "personal gameplay experience" and not backing it up with any example other than the 1st level spell vs a 23 pp power absurdity is is just plain faulty logic. Obviously if you nerf the wizard into the ground and allow the psion to go at full potential the psion will come out on top. :headexplo Here's two quotes from that thread showing the faulty logic used. Because any beginner of psionics can make either Psion, Psy-Warrior, or Wilder incredibly broken. And that's the reason why, is because you have much less of limitations. Psionics are the type of rules that you have to try to NOT make it broken, otherwise you're gonna be doing twice as much damage and surviving twice as long as any other party member. 1. Psionics is harder to screw up and more flexible so it is broken. This ignores that psionic classes get less powers known and lack the utility spells. :looloo: 2. Psionic have more damage dealing potential. Wrong. They have less. :teach: Also by this logic the warlock is the most broken caster ever.:drool: 3. Psionic characters survive longer. :crazy: This makes no sense unless he is used to playing Dungeon Master Vs. players style. That is wrongness of a whole new level. :twitch: This one is about the Myth: The XPH is overpowered These theories that say psionics arent broken, those theories are based upon non-broken psionic characters, and how to make them that way. But it really is easy to make a broken psionic character, and not with just powers alone. I remember no specific character builds in that thread. Rather a step by step debunking of most "overpowered" mythos. It seems obvious either he didn't read it. :hoppingma So, I believe the proper reply to an unsupported claim that psionics is broken is: "MRAOW!" *kaboom* Also this works. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/1765/poster61998083jk6.jpg
GawainBS 07-15-07, 04:27 AM	Calronmoonflower, you summed up exactly why I was so infuriated by is responses. Opinions & facts are two different matters entirely. Also, note how he devolves in to debating semantics of my posts, the more I present proof.
DrowBattlemind 07-15-07, 09:16 AM	GawainBS, you have my sympathy. I have to play in a group where we have a guy who insists on either playing characters out of books HE KNOWS THE DM DOESN'T HAVE, or multi-classing to make characters who can do, well, anything and everything. (Latest game, started with factotum out of Dungeonscape, then went Tome of Battle, and announced he was planning on adding a few levels from the Incarnum book as well...) (He also refuses to play anything out of the EPH, claiming that it's because it's too hard for him to 'get'. Personally, I think it's because it's too hard for him to munchkinize.) calronmoonflower, "Every time you make an unsupported statement about psionics, a kitten kills a god" :rofl: :rofl: :bow: Y'know, it's attitudes like THAT which is why I refuse to ever take part in an RPGA 'Living Whatever' campaign. "You can play whatever you want in an RPGA game" is the claim that I hear all the time from RPGA reps at conventions, yet in Greyhawk (the world that INVENTED frikkin psionics!) psionic characters aren't allowed. Over in Eberron, they allow them, but only if you play some other class FIRST, and then only if the GM deems fit to hand you one of those little cards saying "Toby X has been a good boy, let him play a KALASHTAR", and only a Kalashtar... :banghead: That's like me walking up to (well, ANYONE in this forum) and saying "Well, you can play in our game, but only if you're willing to play a gnome cleric... of Lendor, god of tedium and boredom."
SokenzanMarauder 07-15-07, 09:22 AM	It wouldn't bother me, except he's a frikkin' moderator. They actually give people like that responsibility? Exactly. Dare I say I'd rather be a member of Dicefreaks (no offense to you guys, I just don't like your mods. Great materials there! :p). -Gene
GawainBS 07-15-07, 09:37 AM	GawainBS, you have my sympathy. Y'know, it's attitudes like Siberys's which is why I refuse to ever take part in an RPGA 'Living Whatever' campaign. "You can play whatever you want in an RPGA game" is the claim that I hear all the time from RPGA reps at conventions, yet in Greyhawk (the world that INVENTED frikkin psionics!) psionic characters aren't allowed. Over in Eberron, they allow them, but only if you play some other class FIRST, and then only if the GM deems fit to hand you one of those little cards saying "Toby X has been a good boy, let him play a KALASHTAR", and only a Kalashtar... :banghead: That's like me walking up to (well, ANYONE in this forum) and saying "Well, you can play in our game, but only if you're willing to play a gnome cleric... of Lendor, god of tedium and boredom." Uhu, it's the reason why I have no love either for RPGA. It's not about options, it's about denying options. Also, by denying acces to the EPH, you deny acces to Greater Manyshot and other feats, same goes for disallowing ToB and thus Superior Unarmed Strike. Also, it's the reason why I like Eberron as a setting: anything goes.
The_Shaman 07-15-07, 01:11 PM	Yeah, it just depends on the DM - and what he wants. Just like any of the 3 big settings - it's not as if Greyhawk or the Realms don't have psionics, and even notable psions. At least Eberron reminds the DM to keep open minds :rolleyes: .
InkBlot 07-15-07, 01:51 PM	RPGA is that bad, huh? Greyhawk (the world that INVENTED frikkin psionics!) The term "psionic" was around for at least 30 years before the invention of Greyhawk. And, unlike arcane magic, D&D has cleaved to the original definition of the word "psionic" rather than attempting to redefine it. Sorry to pick nits. You just hit one of my bugbears, that's all.
Tealgorthian 07-15-07, 02:09 PM	RPGA is that bad, huh? I think so. If I am playing in Eberron, why should have to to wait to play a Kalashtar? I think the reward cards are dumb, and refuse to participate in any of the local RPGA events. Either play D&D, or don't. Don't play a half-assed watered down version where you have to do backflips to play what you wanted to in the first place.
GawainBS 07-15-07, 03:00 PM	Either play D&D, or don't. Don't play a half-assed watered down version where you have to do backflips to play what you wanted to in the first place. So true, so true. :)
DrowBattlemind 07-15-07, 03:20 PM	RPGA is that bad, huh? The term "psionic" was around for at least 30 years before the invention of Greyhawk. And, unlike arcane magic, D&D has cleaved to the original definition of the word "psionic" rather than attempting to redefine it. Sorry to pick nits. You just hit one of my bugbears, that's all. No prob, just let me re-phrase that: AD&D (the Greyhawk campaign setting) via the Players Handbook, invented the first RPG game rules for psionics, and therefore their place in a fantasy RPG setting. now go wash that bugbear, he's tracking fleas through the board :tie: I think so. If I am playing in Eberron, why should have to to wait to play a Kalashtar? I think the reward cards are dumb, and refuse to participate in any of the local RPGA events. Either play D&D, or don't. Don't play a half-assed watered down version where you have to do backflips to play what you wanted to in the first place. And that's only if you wanted to play a Kalashtar... which I don't. Many other races are capable of psionic ability, it's not just limited to the Kalashtar race. However, in a RPGA game you can only play a psion (or psychic warrior, soulknife, or wilder) if you're playing a Kalashtar. And that's only after you play something else to get one of those handy-dandy rewards cards. :rolleyes:
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 03:24 PM	Personally, I think the mod who locked the thread was justified in doing so. It had sort of devolved into namecalling, even if the people arguing in favor of psionics were actually continuing to develop new arguments. I find Siberys's claims to be absurd. Comparing a 1st level spell like Magic Missile to a power that would equal the cost of a 11th (23 PP) level power is not a valid argument. :rant: One thing I noticed is that nowhere in anyone's rebuttal in the other thread did anyone point out that a 23PP Crystalstorm consumes daily resources equivalent to a level 11 power. Also, whoever mentioned the Empowered Scorching Ray, I think it would've been good to compare it to a level 2 power that consumes 7PP, just to keep things even, and to emphasize the point that a certain number of PP is roughly equivalent to a spell slot of a particular level. I have to play in a group where we have a guy who insists on either playing characters out of books HE KNOWS THE DM DOESN'T HAVE, or multi-classing to make characters who can do, well, anything and everything. (Latest game, started with factotum out of Dungeonscape, then went Tome of Battle, and announced he was planning on adding a few levels from the Incarnum book as well...) (He also refuses to play anything out of the EPH, claiming that it's because it's too hard for him to 'get'. Personally, I think it's because it's too hard for him to munchkinize.) :confused: I've played a psion for the past two years and it made plenty of sense from the first day. Meanwhile, I'm still not sure what it would take to play an effective Factotum, and I wouldn't begin to know how to build an effective Incarnate or Totemist. Both just have so many options, I'm not sure I could choose abilities that would be relevant. And as a DM, I wouldn't let someone use material I hadn't read, so I'd have to ask to borrow the book for a while before he played the character.
GawainBS 07-15-07, 04:35 PM	One thing I noticed is that nowhere in anyone's rebuttal in the other thread did anyone point out that a 23PP Crystalstorm consumes daily resources equivalent to a level 11 power. I did. I miscalculated and described it as a 9th lvl power, with all that that entails. So the argument was there, he only choose not to read it. :)
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 06:17 PM	I did. I miscalculated and described it as a 9th lvl power, with all that that entails. So the argument was there, he only choose not to read it. :) But his rebuttal-- that it's actually a second-level power-- is technically correct. I don't believe he was thinking in terms of resource expenditure-- that is, you pay for a level 9 power, so you should get something that's worth what you pay for.
GawainBS 07-15-07, 06:21 PM	I think I mentioned that by paying extra points you put it on par with 9th level spells. For me, and most of us, that was clear enough. But you're right, even spelled out he would have refused to see sense.
calronmoonflower 07-15-07, 07:04 PM	calronmoonflower, "Every time you make an unsupported statement about psionics, a kitten kills a god" :rofl: :rofl: :bow: Thank Coffee_Dragon, as he posted that in the Psionic Motivators thread.
magmer2 07-15-07, 07:57 PM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless.
Rhonin the Big 07-15-07, 07:59 PM	New board tradition, anytime somebody posts an (insert new magic or combat system here) is broken thread, everybody should quote this in unison (just replace psionics for the target system). How many idiots can there be? Some say that there's one out of three. If psionics are broken to thee You're the dee-dee-dee! And if you are a dee Go play a psion or three. Cuz than you'll finally see you play d & dee-dee-dee! I am now going to put this in my sig so those who argue for GBI with psionics can see what those who actually know the game think of them. As for dex vs con, that's not a valid comparison. Those who think dex and con are mutually exclusive usually die after the 2nd round of combat, when you have dex you dump strength and vice-versa. With high dex you have: high attack bonus (but only if you take weapon finesse and use finessable weapons) high touch AC but low flat-footed AC high reflex save high initiative lower damage (but only if you have shadowblade or 2 levels in champ of correlon laerthain) and low checks on special combat actions including the checks to oppose them. With high strength you have: higher attack bonus (strength has bigger bonuses than dex and I don't have to spend a feat for finesse) low touch AC but a sneak attack needs to find a chink in that fullplate low reflex save lower initiative (though a few feats and items make up for the low dex for init) higher damage (see higher attack) and high checks on special combat actions. Sorry guys but I'd rather be a real warrior than a girlyman dex fighter with his toothpick sword! :P
DarkTouch 07-15-07, 08:14 PM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless. I have my issues with the term 'broken'.. mostly in that I feel a DM should be able to work with most issues and keep a game working. There are certain exceptions.. like 3.0 psionics say.. but in general. On the other hand, when you start using the term to describe Wizards.. a class that really should define what a spellcaster is in the game.. well, I think you're being a tad bit too liberal with the term.
Tealgorthian 07-15-07, 08:39 PM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless. Any type of spellcaster is stupidly powerful at high levels, when compared to melee/archer types. The Tome of Battle addresses these to some degree. I prefer Psionics to all forms of Arcane/Divine magic. It's much better balanced. I just wish I was better at altering rules so I could keep the flavor of the druid without making it suck hard, or blow everything anyway. But I am working on it.
Tempest Stormwind 07-15-07, 09:08 PM	Any type of spellcaster is stupidly powerful at high levels, when compared to melee/archer types. The Tome of Battle addresses these to some degree. I prefer Psionics to all forms of Arcane/Divine magic. It's much better balanced. I just wish I was better at altering rules so I could keep the flavor of the druid without making it suck hard, or blow everything anyway. But I am working on it. Here's an interesting variant. Take the society mind (which can already do the psi-druid flavor well enough; just consider the grander patterns and connections it draws upon to be the natural world and the connections therein). Remove Soulbinding Gaze and Subconscious Gaze. Replace with Shapeshift, as the PHB2 druid ability, but one level lower (so a level 2 society mind shapeshifts as a level 1 druid). The fluff description is drawing upon your own bond to nature and nature's bond to you, and reinforcing it from aspects drawn from nature's bond to other parts of the natural world, resulting a psychometabolic change to reflect this new strength. Basically, you forge a few new connections in the vast network between all living things -- to shapeshift into a wolf, you draw upon the bond between all wolves and the natural world, and siphon a small element of what makes that bond what it is into your own being. Note that this also involves a mindset change; you cannot manifest powers while in shapeshifted form (although you can still concentrate on powers that you are currently concentrating on; this is important for a society mind). Off the top of my head I'd suspect this would be more or less balanced, although perhaps a bit stronger than an actual society mind (it's a better fighter, certainly, but it completely rewrites how the society mind works offensively -- without the ability to link to your enemies, you can't draw upon their strengths in your team, spread their weaknesses between them, or easily affect them with fear powers). Given how we balanced the society mind conservatively, I don't see this as being a problem.
calronmoonflower 07-15-07, 09:47 PM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless. "MRAOW!" *kaboom* Please think of the poor kittens next time.
InkBlot 07-15-07, 11:16 PM	"MRAOW!" *kaboom* Please think of the poor gods next time. Fixed (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12923529&postcount=134).
AdventChild 07-16-07, 04:07 AM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless. heh, your argument is broken but hey if thats your opinion thats fine... just dont try to make that a fact unless you want the kittens to eat you after they are done with the gods...
Jhaelen 07-16-07, 04:23 AM	I didn't read the thread, but I am going to say that psionics are broken, not as broken as wizards or archivists, but they are broken nonetheless.Everything is broken, except (maybe!) commoners. Have a nice day! :)
myusernameis 07-16-07, 01:57 PM	It's threads like these that make me wonder why I ever thought psions were broken compared to wizards. I realized a while ago that wizards can do everything a psion can do, only better in alot of cases, with more options. The only thing a psion has going for it is direct damage capability (the height of high level useless) and the ability to adapt energy types, which with proper optimization a wizard (with a prestige class or two) can do better yet again.
myusernameis 07-16-07, 01:58 PM	Everything is broken, except (maybe!) commoners. Have a nice day! :)Commoners are broken in the opposite direction, broken doesn't just mean overpowered.
Enchanter_Tom 07-16-07, 02:10 PM	Stop haranguing the guy. I think he meant to say that full-manifesting psionic classes are broken--which they are, simply by virtue of having powers akin to wizard/cleric/etc. spells.
GawainBS 07-16-07, 02:20 PM	Stop haranguing the guy. I think he meant to say that full-manifesting psionic classes are broken--which they are, simply by virtue of having powers akin to wizard/cleric/etc. spells. The problem is: he refuses to acknowledge traditional fullcasters are broken.
unusualsuspect 07-16-07, 02:26 PM	The problem is: he refuses to acknowledge traditional fullcasters are broken. Actually, he specifically mentioned that psions WEREN'T AS BROKEN AS WIZARDS OR CLERICS Archivists (whoops, edited). He simply also believes that psionics is broken. I don't agree with him (that psionics is broken, anyway), but that's a misrepresentation of what he's saying, especially considering the hot water he's in making statements like that in the Psionics forum. :P
GawainBS 07-16-07, 02:28 PM	Actually, he specifically mentioned that psions WEREN'T AS BROKEN AS WIZARDS OR CLERICS Archivists (whoops, edited). He simply also believes that psionics is broken. I don't agree with him (that psionics is broken, anyway), but that's a misrepresentation of what he's saying, especially considering the hot water he's in making statements like that in the Psionics forum. :P I though you were referring to the Gamebanshee guy. I withdraw my comment.
unusualsuspect 07-16-07, 03:31 PM	Misunderstandings abound! Sorry for jumping all over ya. :embarrass
GawainBS 07-16-07, 03:39 PM	Since I'm so magnanimous, I'll forgive you, my son. ;) Still, I'm going to call my moderator-friend to have this thread locked. ;)
Lycanthromancer 07-16-07, 04:55 PM	Gawain, you're starting to sound like Darken Rahl. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darken_Rahl) Now there's a BBEG to toss at your players. :D
GawainBS 07-16-07, 04:57 PM	Hehe, it's one of those series I never bothered to finish. Fitting that I sound like that BBEG, probably because my subconcious told me "Hey, Gawain, we can do better than this lowprofile BBEG-ing." ;)