Psionics as sand/water/paper/etc. control... more than just reflavoring? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionics as sand/water/paper/etc. control... more than just reflavoring? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NthDegree256
03-28-07, 01:39 AM So, over in DisposableHero's Psionic Naruto Builds thread, he runs with the idea that flavor is entirely separate from mechanics, and that someone like Gaara, who manipulates sand, can be approximated with any number of psionic powers, dealing sonic damage when forced to pick an energy type.

It started me thinking. Calling something like this a pure flavor change makes sense most of the time, but in actual gameplay... I can see issues cropping up. Suppose a player is playing a Gaara-type character, but he is a master of water shaping. Most of the time, the idea that all of his powers manipulate water isn't a big deal; he carries a large jar of water, perhaps an Endless Decanter, everywhere he goes, and the character is able to function mechanically just like a regular shaper, with the added "cool" flavor of having his powers display a consistent theme, one very different from typical psionics. He can call himself a "hydromancer," defeating his enemies with Ectoplasmic Water Cocoons and Energy Aquatic Claws. When he's near a lake or a river, his powers rise up out of the surrounding bodies of water; when he's elsewhere, his portable source takes over. No mechanical changes, no balance issues, everyone's happy.

Now suppose his character gets knocked out and captured. His captors, having seen how he works, lock him in a dry cell with no liquid water in any direction for at least a hundred feet. Eventually, the character awakens, and the player is faced with a frustrating decision.

Any other shaper would be all set, having no need for any equipment other than their own mind. They'd have little difficulty blasting the lock apart and setting off to escape from their captors. But this player has committed themselves to the flavor of the water-shaping, and per the flavor, he has effectively nullified his character's options.

But wait, you say! How is this different from a Lawful Good fighter who restricts herself voluntarily from, say, killing a sleeping guard, despite the fact that the guard is easy pickin's while asleep and a tough challenge when awake? She's denied herself the mechanically-available easy route, too, and for roleplaying reasons, right?

Well, not quite. There are mechanical pros and cons associated with something like an alignment choice; while the fighter can't take the easy, throat-slitting way out of the dungeon, she also has a few mechanical benefits to look forward to; anyone who can detect alignments will know of her upstanding moral fibre (sometimes for ill, sometimes for good), lawful and holy magic items will function for her, and she can even take certain classes that might be barred to her with a different alignment (paladin? monk? non-Eberronian-cleric-of-a-lawful-or-good-deity?) Meager, perhaps, but still there.

Meanwhile, the poor water-shaping psion is slowly realizing that he's being punished for his attempt to play something cool, different, and interesting to him; he convinced his DM that it would be purely a flavor change and that he wouldn't try to claim any special immunities, and now for his efforts, he carries the endless risk of being denied the ability to use his powers much more easily than a boring old ectoplasm-wielding shaper would.

The same goes for anyone who tries to use psionics to model a paper-user out of Read or Die (man, can you imagine how sweet that would be? An Illumian, probably, using Call Weaponry to fold a longsword out of a nearby stack of paper, then tossing up a swirling screen of sheets of parchment to gain concealment as per Concealing Amorpha, then... erm. Ahem.), or, I don't know, a druid-esque character that tosses around ordinary soil to great effect.

What do you think? Is the issue a big enough deal that it's worth considering? Should we maybe think a little about a mechanical representation for this kind of stuff?
BadCatMan
03-28-07, 02:03 AM Well, that hydromancer could suck the moisture and water vapour out of the air, or extract it from himself (spit), or a guard (a bead of sweat, or vapour in his breath), and hence gain some water to work with. It need not be much to begin with, and certainly need not have a mechanical benefit or penalty.

Or the paper-master could simply pretend to summon paper out of the void, then set to work.

I agree there are problems in such a reflavouring, the player and DM just need to be a little more imaginative, and laterally thinking, in how they reflavour it.
IceFractal
03-28-07, 02:01 PM I've played a water-based Shaper before, quite fun actually. In his case, however, part of it was that he was largely composed of water, so he was pretty much his own source of fluid. And for water in particular, there's quite a few sources of it, including the air.

Now if you wanted this type of selection to have a defined effect, you could do something like:

Material Adept [Psionic]
Prerequisites: Ability to manifest psionic powers.
Benefit: Your psionic powers are fueled by a material substance, and gain greater stability, as a result. In general, you can carry enough of the substance with you to manifest powers normally, but when in the presence of a large volume of the substance (a desert for sand, an ocean or large lake for water, etc), you can manifest powers at half the normal cost, and your augmentation limit is raised by 1. However, when deprived of the substance, your powers cost double the normal manifesting cost.
Special: What qualifies as a valid material for this feat is up to the DM - generally, the chances of finding a large amount of it should be no more than twice the chances of being deprived of it.

Material Scion [Psionic]
Prerequisites: Ability to manifest psionic powers.
Benefit: As Material Adept, but moreso. When in the presence of a large amount of the material, you can manifest any power (fully augmented) for only a single point, and your augmentation limit is raised by 3. When deprived of the substance, you cannot manifest powers at all.

Not sure if those are balanced, but it could be a start. Material Scion, though is probably more for NPCs.
Halaku
03-28-07, 02:11 PM Go emo for a moment and cut yourself, then use the blood as 'water' for your abilites, followed by, pending on your alignment, taking 'donations' of 'water' from the nearby gaurds.
Kanachi
03-28-07, 02:28 PM Hmmm… well in my experience if I approach my dm with a cool flavour thing I want to try out and we work on the proposed concept together its surprising how much my character benefits over another more "standard" build I may otherwise have constructed... the dm may reward my character with cool magic items that are very specific to my chosen flavour or give me bonuses to rolls simply because it would make sense with my proposed flavour. Because of all this I also don’t mind my dm ganking me from time to time...

I mean let’s face facts if you have a story line to your character you can bet that something within that story is going to bite you on the arse at some point in the adventure, THATS the point of having the storyline in the first place. Being ganked in a story/flavour related manor is far more rewarding than being ganked by the dice.

I think this is all very logical and I largely agree with it, it rewards both player and dm for imaginative thinking and generally makes for better role playing and a greater level of fun (which is the no.1 priority anyway).

So if you’re a hydromancer and you get placed in a position where your powers are of no use I would recommend thinking about that time your dm gave you a +2 bonus on your diplomacy check against that water elemental you came across 2 session ago or that weird item you acquired which lets you absorb 10 cubic feet of water per character level within yourself (before being able to releases it later as a strange 1 shot breath weapon).

When I’m a dm I generally reward my players who bring flavour to the table for their effort and role playing. However, sometimes I may also look at this flavour and use it as an adventure hook against them… that’s just the way it goes sometimes.
RorixBladewing
03-28-07, 02:48 PM You have to consider, though, that that situation will only occur when the DM orcehstrates it. What you're really saying is that, when you dedicate yourself to flavor, your DM can screw you over. Doesn't seem like the problem is flavor. If you and your DM have come to the mutual agreement to make this dedication to flavor, the DM should hold up his end. Of course, the whole 'lock up your PCs and disable all fo their abilities' routine is a pretty lame DM tool anyways. I could say the same thing of a Kensai who is captured and has his signature wepaon destroyed. You make a dedication to a flavorful, mechanical ability, and your DM says "I think I'll screw you over."

Long story short, as long as you and your DM work together, it's not a problem.
BlaineTog
03-28-07, 03:26 PM Me, I'd give him some extra skill points or something as compensation, maybe give him the decanter for free. Because this situation would suck for him, but it's probably not going to happen often. I mean, really, how often are characters in your game captured and tied up?
Hirochicken
03-28-07, 03:42 PM I like it. I often try to think of stuff similar to that so I'm not just playing a Lurk, Totemist, or Fighter but rather I'm a master of my own shadows, Birdman, or a professional wrestler and gladiator.

The using a waterskin as a focus makes me of the Water Benders in Avatar. Also reminds me of when a wizard of mine was caputured, so I had to use some of my earwax as a spell component for a Ghost Sound spell...
InkBlot
03-28-07, 03:58 PM If a player in a game I was running came to me and said he wanted to use psionics to create a water bender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Bender), I'd give him two options.

One would be to make his psion draw material from the elemental plane of water instead of the astral plane when manifesting metacreativity (and maybe some psychoportation) powers. This would have a number of consequences, such astral constructs having fire vulnerability and either cold resistance (if made of ice) or extra DR/bludgeoning (if made of liquid water). He'd still be playing a psion - his character wouldn't be able to blast enemies with water drawn out of a lake without using something like TK thrust.

The other option would be to work with me to create new powers which actually do depend on taking water from a nearby source. Obviously this would take a lot more time and effort, and wouldn't always be feasible.

edit: There is a power from Dark Sun ( http://www.athas.org ) which condenses water from the air. The amount of water you get is based on the dryness of the area around you, and it's possible to get no water at all in extremely arid places. It's low level too (2nd, IIRC).
Nifft
03-28-07, 04:16 PM I like the idea, and I'd play (or run) a game with exactly these "flavor" restrictions. Basically, similar to the "flavor restriction" of a Wizard's spell component pouch -- it means that, if you're captured, your options go way down.

Mostly Psions are immune to this, so that cuts down the options of the DM. If Psions can't be captured, they should expect to be killed instead. That's lame. I like having "jail break" as a possible scenario -- so I like the "self-nerf" idea presented here.

Thanks, -- N
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-28-07, 04:29 PM One more vote for using blood, yours or others', to do things. You can also draw it out of the air, at a rate depending on the climate.

I had a similar concept with a rune mage (kineticist). Yes, he carries around a bag with etched tiles, but when it comes down to it, he'll write the runes on air or trace them on the insides of his eyelids if he has to. He also has Overchannel (uses his blood to boost runes), so again, it's not a problem, and it still fits mechanically.
NthDegree256
03-28-07, 08:56 PM Some good points all around, thanks for the discussion.

I was looking aroung in my PHB II, and I found a segment I was looking for. In the segment about making Warlock characters, one of the roleplaying suggestions it makes is to give your warlock certain taboos; can't enter a building without an invitation, can't choose a direction on a crossroads without being explicitly told where to go, etc.

There's a little sidebar underneath it that talks about assigning mechanics to these taboos. It suggests that, for a warlock who violates these taboos, a 24-hour penalty of -1 to caster level or saving throws is probably appropriate. The sidebar then goes on to suggest that, since it might not be fair for the DM to only penalize the player in exchange for an interesting roleplaying hook, the DM might also consider creating occasional circumstances that give a 24-hour bonus to caster level or saves - something defineable but rare, like "during the new moon" or whatever.

This seems very much in line with what I was thinking... maybe your paper-wielding manifester can still use her powers at a -1 manifester level when there aren't any sheets of paper around, but gains a +1 bonus to her manifester level when there's an abundance of the stuff, like in a library. I also like IceFractal's feat ideas, although I have to admit that I haven't used psionics enough to be sure whether or not they're balanced.

In regards to what Kenachi and RorixBladewing said about the DM and the player working together: The point I'm trying to make is that I don't advocate the DM screwing over the player for a flavor choice, with no reward to make up for it. As a DM myself, though, I do like to have a consistent and simple set of rules to base decisions on, and a good rule-of-thumb "you get these benefits and take those penalties in certain situations" is a handy tool.

Just as another thought to toss around for discussion; DisposableHero's Gaara used sonic damage as the most generic way to approximate the physical damage of sand. What balance issues might there be with a feat or "alternative class feature" that replaces all of the energy choices in "Energy ___" powers with the ability to choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead? Is that too weak, leaving the manifester defenseless against creatures with DR/magic or DR/silver, etc.? Is the ability to do physical damage with all those powers too strong for reasons I haven't considered yet? Just food for thought.

Thanks again for the discussion!
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-28-07, 09:14 PM Just as another thought to toss around for discussion; DisposableHero's Gaara used sonic damage as the most generic way to approximate the physical damage of sand. What balance issues might there be with a feat or "alternative class feature" that replaces all of the energy choices in "Energy ___" powers with the ability to choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead? Is that too weak, leaving the manifester defenseless against creatures with DR/magic or DR/silver, etc.? Is the ability to do physical damage with all those powers too strong for reasons I haven't considered yet? Just food for thought.

Ah, a good one. Check out the crystal powers, they are an existing set that already do physical damage, but with the added bonus of ignoring spell resistance and power resistance. However, you could probably work out your own power. I think a level 2 version of crystal shard could deal all three types of damage at your option and be fine.

Overcoming damage reduction shouldn't be an issue, you'll be dealing huge amounts of damage with single hits at the levels that DR will be an issue.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm
Kanachi
03-28-07, 09:28 PM Some good points all around, thanks for the discussion.
In regards to what Kenachi and RorixBladewing said about the DM and the player working together: The point I'm trying to make is that I don't advocate the DM screwing over the player for a flavor choice, with no reward to make up for it. As a DM myself, though, I do like to have a consistent and simple set of rules to base decisions on, and a good rule-of-thumb "you get these benefits and take those penalties in certain situations" is a handy tool.

Well its all a matter of opinion and personal choice for the DM/player but think of your flavour as a storyline that you want to insert into the game concerning your character... how did you become aqua man? Why? Are there others? Are there people who hate your kind/you for what you are? Are people like you the norm? and so on and so on, all these are logical questions if your going to add any kind of flavour to your character.

Lets go one step further and look at a more simple story idea, lets say that you were actually once an evil character but now your good. Now this simple choice can actually have some very positive and negative effects upon your character in the future. He may be able to fool various evil villans into thinking he is himself still evil or he might find that the law of the land is still seeking to punish him for past deeds. Should the later be considered to be the DM screwing the player? I don’t think so.. it is infact the result of the dm and player working together to create a more 3d world.

You can’t expect to be mr "i was once a master assassin" and only ever gain bonuses in the world in which you exist as under certain circumstances its simply not going to be favourable to have such a past.

I know i'm talking about story line flavour here but the same can indeed be true of any flavour you put forward. Remember that bad things happen in adventures, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if your a man made of fire your going to come across potentially dangerous quantities of water at some point in your life. Its really no different from the DM pitting a magically immune monster against a group (in effect limiting a magic uses ability to win), both are to the detriment of the player it just so happens that the player and dm agreed on the proposed reality and logical thinking has opened new avenues of story telling for them to explore.

From personal experience some of the best role playing moments are found when either I as a player or others around me are at a disadvantage in direct response to choices I have made in my past/build/flavour… it stamps home the whole “we are not just invulnerable killing machines” side of life that all true adventurers should really experience at some point.

In short a bit of frailty and exploitation of ones weaknesses is never a bad thing for rp or fun around the table. Subtlety when engaging in such matters (both by dm an d player) is the key however!

All of this is just my personal opinion however, its entirely possible to play things through without such issues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NthDegree256 03-28-07, 01:39 AM	So, over in DisposableHero's Psionic Naruto Builds thread, he runs with the idea that flavor is entirely separate from mechanics, and that someone like Gaara, who manipulates sand, can be approximated with any number of psionic powers, dealing sonic damage when forced to pick an energy type. It started me thinking. Calling something like this a pure flavor change makes sense most of the time, but in actual gameplay... I can see issues cropping up. Suppose a player is playing a Gaara-type character, but he is a master of water shaping. Most of the time, the idea that all of his powers manipulate water isn't a big deal; he carries a large jar of water, perhaps an Endless Decanter, everywhere he goes, and the character is able to function mechanically just like a regular shaper, with the added "cool" flavor of having his powers display a consistent theme, one very different from typical psionics. He can call himself a "hydromancer," defeating his enemies with Ectoplasmic Water Cocoons and Energy Aquatic Claws. When he's near a lake or a river, his powers rise up out of the surrounding bodies of water; when he's elsewhere, his portable source takes over. No mechanical changes, no balance issues, everyone's happy. Now suppose his character gets knocked out and captured. His captors, having seen how he works, lock him in a dry cell with no liquid water in any direction for at least a hundred feet. Eventually, the character awakens, and the player is faced with a frustrating decision. Any other shaper would be all set, having no need for any equipment other than their own mind. They'd have little difficulty blasting the lock apart and setting off to escape from their captors. But this player has committed themselves to the flavor of the water-shaping, and per the flavor, he has effectively nullified his character's options. But wait, you say! How is this different from a Lawful Good fighter who restricts herself voluntarily from, say, killing a sleeping guard, despite the fact that the guard is easy pickin's while asleep and a tough challenge when awake? She's denied herself the mechanically-available easy route, too, and for roleplaying reasons, right? Well, not quite. There are mechanical pros and cons associated with something like an alignment choice; while the fighter can't take the easy, throat-slitting way out of the dungeon, she also has a few mechanical benefits to look forward to; anyone who can detect alignments will know of her upstanding moral fibre (sometimes for ill, sometimes for good), lawful and holy magic items will function for her, and she can even take certain classes that might be barred to her with a different alignment (paladin? monk? non-Eberronian-cleric-of-a-lawful-or-good-deity?) Meager, perhaps, but still there. Meanwhile, the poor water-shaping psion is slowly realizing that he's being punished for his attempt to play something cool, different, and interesting to him; he convinced his DM that it would be purely a flavor change and that he wouldn't try to claim any special immunities, and now for his efforts, he carries the endless risk of being denied the ability to use his powers much more easily than a boring old ectoplasm-wielding shaper would. The same goes for anyone who tries to use psionics to model a paper-user out of Read or Die (man, can you imagine how sweet that would be? An Illumian, probably, using Call Weaponry to fold a longsword out of a nearby stack of paper, then tossing up a swirling screen of sheets of parchment to gain concealment as per Concealing Amorpha, then... erm. Ahem.), or, I don't know, a druid-esque character that tosses around ordinary soil to great effect. What do you think? Is the issue a big enough deal that it's worth considering? Should we maybe think a little about a mechanical representation for this kind of stuff?
BadCatMan 03-28-07, 02:03 AM	Well, that hydromancer could suck the moisture and water vapour out of the air, or extract it from himself (spit), or a guard (a bead of sweat, or vapour in his breath), and hence gain some water to work with. It need not be much to begin with, and certainly need not have a mechanical benefit or penalty. Or the paper-master could simply pretend to summon paper out of the void, then set to work. I agree there are problems in such a reflavouring, the player and DM just need to be a little more imaginative, and laterally thinking, in how they reflavour it.
IceFractal 03-28-07, 02:01 PM	I've played a water-based Shaper before, quite fun actually. In his case, however, part of it was that he was largely composed of water, so he was pretty much his own source of fluid. And for water in particular, there's quite a few sources of it, including the air. Now if you wanted this type of selection to have a defined effect, you could do something like: Material Adept [Psionic] Prerequisites: Ability to manifest psionic powers. Benefit: Your psionic powers are fueled by a material substance, and gain greater stability, as a result. In general, you can carry enough of the substance with you to manifest powers normally, but when in the presence of a large volume of the substance (a desert for sand, an ocean or large lake for water, etc), you can manifest powers at half the normal cost, and your augmentation limit is raised by 1. However, when deprived of the substance, your powers cost double the normal manifesting cost. Special: What qualifies as a valid material for this feat is up to the DM - generally, the chances of finding a large amount of it should be no more than twice the chances of being deprived of it. Material Scion [Psionic] Prerequisites: Ability to manifest psionic powers. Benefit: As Material Adept, but moreso. When in the presence of a large amount of the material, you can manifest any power (fully augmented) for only a single point, and your augmentation limit is raised by 3. When deprived of the substance, you cannot manifest powers at all. Not sure if those are balanced, but it could be a start. Material Scion, though is probably more for NPCs.
Halaku 03-28-07, 02:11 PM	Go emo for a moment and cut yourself, then use the blood as 'water' for your abilites, followed by, pending on your alignment, taking 'donations' of 'water' from the nearby gaurds.
Kanachi 03-28-07, 02:28 PM	Hmmm… well in my experience if I approach my dm with a cool flavour thing I want to try out and we work on the proposed concept together its surprising how much my character benefits over another more "standard" build I may otherwise have constructed... the dm may reward my character with cool magic items that are very specific to my chosen flavour or give me bonuses to rolls simply because it would make sense with my proposed flavour. Because of all this I also don’t mind my dm ganking me from time to time... I mean let’s face facts if you have a story line to your character you can bet that something within that story is going to bite you on the arse at some point in the adventure, THATS the point of having the storyline in the first place. Being ganked in a story/flavour related manor is far more rewarding than being ganked by the dice. I think this is all very logical and I largely agree with it, it rewards both player and dm for imaginative thinking and generally makes for better role playing and a greater level of fun (which is the no.1 priority anyway). So if you’re a hydromancer and you get placed in a position where your powers are of no use I would recommend thinking about that time your dm gave you a +2 bonus on your diplomacy check against that water elemental you came across 2 session ago or that weird item you acquired which lets you absorb 10 cubic feet of water per character level within yourself (before being able to releases it later as a strange 1 shot breath weapon). When I’m a dm I generally reward my players who bring flavour to the table for their effort and role playing. However, sometimes I may also look at this flavour and use it as an adventure hook against them… that’s just the way it goes sometimes.
RorixBladewing 03-28-07, 02:48 PM	You have to consider, though, that that situation will only occur when the DM orcehstrates it. What you're really saying is that, when you dedicate yourself to flavor, your DM can screw you over. Doesn't seem like the problem is flavor. If you and your DM have come to the mutual agreement to make this dedication to flavor, the DM should hold up his end. Of course, the whole 'lock up your PCs and disable all fo their abilities' routine is a pretty lame DM tool anyways. I could say the same thing of a Kensai who is captured and has his signature wepaon destroyed. You make a dedication to a flavorful, mechanical ability, and your DM says "I think I'll screw you over." Long story short, as long as you and your DM work together, it's not a problem.
BlaineTog 03-28-07, 03:26 PM	Me, I'd give him some extra skill points or something as compensation, maybe give him the decanter for free. Because this situation would suck for him, but it's probably not going to happen often. I mean, really, how often are characters in your game captured and tied up?
Hirochicken 03-28-07, 03:42 PM	I like it. I often try to think of stuff similar to that so I'm not just playing a Lurk, Totemist, or Fighter but rather I'm a master of my own shadows, Birdman, or a professional wrestler and gladiator. The using a waterskin as a focus makes me of the Water Benders in Avatar. Also reminds me of when a wizard of mine was caputured, so I had to use some of my earwax as a spell component for a Ghost Sound spell...
InkBlot 03-28-07, 03:58 PM	If a player in a game I was running came to me and said he wanted to use psionics to create a water bender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Bender), I'd give him two options. One would be to make his psion draw material from the elemental plane of water instead of the astral plane when manifesting metacreativity (and maybe some psychoportation) powers. This would have a number of consequences, such astral constructs having fire vulnerability and either cold resistance (if made of ice) or extra DR/bludgeoning (if made of liquid water). He'd still be playing a psion - his character wouldn't be able to blast enemies with water drawn out of a lake without using something like TK thrust. The other option would be to work with me to create new powers which actually do depend on taking water from a nearby source. Obviously this would take a lot more time and effort, and wouldn't always be feasible. edit: There is a power from Dark Sun ( http://www.athas.org ) which condenses water from the air. The amount of water you get is based on the dryness of the area around you, and it's possible to get no water at all in extremely arid places. It's low level too (2nd, IIRC).
Nifft 03-28-07, 04:16 PM	I like the idea, and I'd play (or run) a game with exactly these "flavor" restrictions. Basically, similar to the "flavor restriction" of a Wizard's spell component pouch -- it means that, if you're captured, your options go way down. Mostly Psions are immune to this, so that cuts down the options of the DM. If Psions can't be captured, they should expect to be killed instead. That's lame. I like having "jail break" as a possible scenario -- so I like the "self-nerf" idea presented here. Thanks, -- N
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-28-07, 04:29 PM	One more vote for using blood, yours or others', to do things. You can also draw it out of the air, at a rate depending on the climate. I had a similar concept with a rune mage (kineticist). Yes, he carries around a bag with etched tiles, but when it comes down to it, he'll write the runes on air or trace them on the insides of his eyelids if he has to. He also has Overchannel (uses his blood to boost runes), so again, it's not a problem, and it still fits mechanically.
NthDegree256 03-28-07, 08:56 PM	Some good points all around, thanks for the discussion. I was looking aroung in my PHB II, and I found a segment I was looking for. In the segment about making Warlock characters, one of the roleplaying suggestions it makes is to give your warlock certain taboos; can't enter a building without an invitation, can't choose a direction on a crossroads without being explicitly told where to go, etc. There's a little sidebar underneath it that talks about assigning mechanics to these taboos. It suggests that, for a warlock who violates these taboos, a 24-hour penalty of -1 to caster level or saving throws is probably appropriate. The sidebar then goes on to suggest that, since it might not be fair for the DM to only penalize the player in exchange for an interesting roleplaying hook, the DM might also consider creating occasional circumstances that give a 24-hour bonus to caster level or saves - something defineable but rare, like "during the new moon" or whatever. This seems very much in line with what I was thinking... maybe your paper-wielding manifester can still use her powers at a -1 manifester level when there aren't any sheets of paper around, but gains a +1 bonus to her manifester level when there's an abundance of the stuff, like in a library. I also like IceFractal's feat ideas, although I have to admit that I haven't used psionics enough to be sure whether or not they're balanced. In regards to what Kenachi and RorixBladewing said about the DM and the player working together: The point I'm trying to make is that I don't advocate the DM screwing over the player for a flavor choice, with no reward to make up for it. As a DM myself, though, I do like to have a consistent and simple set of rules to base decisions on, and a good rule-of-thumb "you get these benefits and take those penalties in certain situations" is a handy tool. Just as another thought to toss around for discussion; DisposableHero's Gaara used sonic damage as the most generic way to approximate the physical damage of sand. What balance issues might there be with a feat or "alternative class feature" that replaces all of the energy choices in "Energy ___" powers with the ability to choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead? Is that too weak, leaving the manifester defenseless against creatures with DR/magic or DR/silver, etc.? Is the ability to do physical damage with all those powers too strong for reasons I haven't considered yet? Just food for thought. Thanks again for the discussion!
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-28-07, 09:14 PM	Just as another thought to toss around for discussion; DisposableHero's Gaara used sonic damage as the most generic way to approximate the physical damage of sand. What balance issues might there be with a feat or "alternative class feature" that replaces all of the energy choices in "Energy ___" powers with the ability to choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage instead? Is that too weak, leaving the manifester defenseless against creatures with DR/magic or DR/silver, etc.? Is the ability to do physical damage with all those powers too strong for reasons I haven't considered yet? Just food for thought. Ah, a good one. Check out the crystal powers, they are an existing set that already do physical damage, but with the added bonus of ignoring spell resistance and power resistance. However, you could probably work out your own power. I think a level 2 version of crystal shard could deal all three types of damage at your option and be fine. Overcoming damage reduction shouldn't be an issue, you'll be dealing huge amounts of damage with single hits at the levels that DR will be an issue. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm
Kanachi 03-28-07, 09:28 PM	Some good points all around, thanks for the discussion. In regards to what Kenachi and RorixBladewing said about the DM and the player working together: The point I'm trying to make is that I don't advocate the DM screwing over the player for a flavor choice, with no reward to make up for it. As a DM myself, though, I do like to have a consistent and simple set of rules to base decisions on, and a good rule-of-thumb "you get these benefits and take those penalties in certain situations" is a handy tool. Well its all a matter of opinion and personal choice for the DM/player but think of your flavour as a storyline that you want to insert into the game concerning your character... how did you become aqua man? Why? Are there others? Are there people who hate your kind/you for what you are? Are people like you the norm? and so on and so on, all these are logical questions if your going to add any kind of flavour to your character. Lets go one step further and look at a more simple story idea, lets say that you were actually once an evil character but now your good. Now this simple choice can actually have some very positive and negative effects upon your character in the future. He may be able to fool various evil villans into thinking he is himself still evil or he might find that the law of the land is still seeking to punish him for past deeds. Should the later be considered to be the DM screwing the player? I don’t think so.. it is infact the result of the dm and player working together to create a more 3d world. You can’t expect to be mr "i was once a master assassin" and only ever gain bonuses in the world in which you exist as under certain circumstances its simply not going to be favourable to have such a past. I know i'm talking about story line flavour here but the same can indeed be true of any flavour you put forward. Remember that bad things happen in adventures, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if your a man made of fire your going to come across potentially dangerous quantities of water at some point in your life. Its really no different from the DM pitting a magically immune monster against a group (in effect limiting a magic uses ability to win), both are to the detriment of the player it just so happens that the player and dm agreed on the proposed reality and logical thinking has opened new avenues of story telling for them to explore. From personal experience some of the best role playing moments are found when either I as a player or others around me are at a disadvantage in direct response to choices I have made in my past/build/flavour… it stamps home the whole “we are not just invulnerable killing machines” side of life that all true adventurers should really experience at some point. In short a bit of frailty and exploitation of ones weaknesses is never a bad thing for rp or fun around the table. Subtlety when engaging in such matters (both by dm an d player) is the key however! All of this is just my personal opinion however, its entirely possible to play things through without such issues.