Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Deveral 06-06-07, 03:54 PM	As it is right now, information on epic levels seems to be fairly low especially after level 30 or so. Along with that is the fact that magic has so many more options with spells than psionics does. Add that to the fact that Psionics doesnt seem to have nearly as powerful of metamagic feats. I guess what I am trying to say is it seems like magic has so much over psionics. Psionics has a lot of save or die powers but magic has more no save spells and way more options at epic levels. Am I wrong to think this? What gives psionics (psion especially) an edge at epic levels? P.S. Psionics version of shapechange (metamorphisis) seems way underpowered compared to shapechange at epic levels.
hovnarr 06-06-07, 04:26 PM	First off, I've never played an epic game, so most of this is relating info from the epic boards and some theoretical epic psi-optimization of my own. Epic is very, very different, mostly due to items. Consider: *SR/PR-items scale quickly and come cheaply, which means everybody and his brother could (and would) have unbeatable SR/PR. *Saves and save-boosting items scale more quickly than spell/power DCs, so expect every target to save every time unless they roll a natural 1. To be perfectly clear, save-or-dies are only 5% effective IF they DON'T allow SR/PR. If they do, they are completely ineffective. *Before you consider Crystal Shard, look at the epic deflection feats. Due to these facts, physical attacks are usually the way to go in epic, and spellcasters focus more on buffing and debuffing than anything else. And all that utility you might need (high level divinations, transportation effects, planar travel and survival etc). However, psionics have some notable powers that slip between the above restrictions: *Tornado Blast: [half, no] area damage of unspecified type. *Swarm of Crystals (and similar effects): [no, no] effect - the low damage matters little since they would save anyway. You also need to consider defensive options. Taking a long time to defeat a foe is not a problem if you are invulnerable meanwhile. For instance: *Telekinetic sphere + burrowing power *fusion with psicrystal (hellwasp swarm + will-o'-wisp) *true mind switch (or the mind switch/astral seed trick) to a swarm and manifest null psionics field I'd venture a guess that the biggest loss compared to arcane casters is the Gate spell, but you have direct damage that actually works to compensate.
Rev_of_shadow 06-06-07, 04:31 PM	Psionics doesnt seem to have nearly as powerful of metamagic feats. In the Epic Level Handbook it states that Metamagic feats for arcane magic should be reworded to apply to psionics. i think they did that to save space in the book, and it does work out quite well, as for spell ability opposed to psionic ability I do agree, psionics seems more limited, but also note its more specific where as arcane magic covers nearly everything.
Deveral 06-06-07, 04:35 PM	I havent looked extensively at the power list of psions but they dont seem to have a ton of buff spells. I would figure they were only good for mind switching into something super powerful and meleeing, only to use their powers to reverse time when things go terribly wrong. Any other opinions from other people?
Tyroki 06-06-07, 05:43 PM	Seeing as we're on the epic levels subject, are there any epic "Powers"? Althought I supposed it doesn't really matter by then >.> Just create yer own powers and research them (If the DM allows, like mine is =D)
Friendlyfish 06-06-07, 05:46 PM	Although save-or-dies can lack without help at Epic levels, they aren't useless by any means. What most people fail to include in their cogitations are the save reducing/DC buffing powers. For psionics, for instance, at Epic levels you can use Bend Reality to confer a nice -8 to saves on the pesky foe. Your next action will see your save-or-die kill it. For DC buffing, metaconcert works well (up to +10). Between the two, you can close the gap between your DC and their save by up to 18. Also, don't forget Epic Manifestation powers. To overcome powerful PR/SR, use greater power penetration; +8 to a manifester check will usually see you through. Mages have enervation and energy drain, also nice ways of reducing the save burden. Using these methods, save-or-dies, although not the one round combat killers they used to be, are still more effective than waiting for the warrior to carve up the 2,000 hp beast at epic levels. Remember; psions get some pretty effective save-or-dies that even mages don't get. Intellect Bomb and Decerebrate are UNLABELED save-or-dies; most creatures at epic levels are immune to one or more tags such as mind-affecting, death, phantasmal, etc. These two powers will even kill Abominations, immune to just about any other save-or-die method. A nice strategy for psions, while waiting for their save or die to "lock on" at epic levels, is to use Psionic Dominated and charmed baddies against your current foe. Some things you can dominate/charm in an epic adventure are almost as good as things that mages can bring in with the all-too-broken Gate spell.
lavekkia 06-06-07, 05:56 PM	Seeing as we're on the epic levels subject, are there any epic "Powers"? Althought I supposed it doesn't really matter by then >.> Just create yer own powers and research them (If the DM allows, like mine is =D) Take a look here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606720
Tyroki 06-06-07, 06:03 PM	Take a look here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=606720 Ooooh. Thanks ^^ My DM rules that we should stay official books only, but we've been able to convince him to use a system here or a system there if it's really worth his while. ^^
crizhII 06-06-07, 06:24 PM	*Saves and save-boosting items scale more quickly than spell/power DCs, so expect every target to save every time unless they roll a natural 1. To be perfectly clear, save-or-dies are only 5% effective IF they DON'T allow SR/PR. If they do, they are completely ineffective. Forgive me for being stupid... One of the things I've always liked about Psionics is that save DC's scale with augmentation. Particularly at Epic Levels, when a level 9 spell is still just a level 9 spell, Psionics must have an edge. Or am I crazy/woefully ignorant of Epic tactics?
CrimsonDeath 06-06-07, 07:54 PM	The main problem with scaling your DCs through augmentation, I imagine, would be how many PP you'll be burning through.
Friendlyfish 06-06-07, 09:55 PM	The main problem with scaling your DCs through augmentation, I imagine, would be how many PP you'll be burning through. That is true; I'd actually forgotten that. That's a big advantage over mages/clerics at epic levels, for the save or dies with scaling DCs. Although honestly, there aren't that many, and most are mind-affecting, which can be problematic at times.
Deveral 06-07-07, 01:36 AM	The save or die powers are amazing, dont get me wrong. Its just that saves tend to be higher, much higher actually, than spell DC's at epic levels. That combined with the fact that almost everything, at least the stuff you want to kill fast, has high PR/SR. With that in mind, magic has some sweet buffs and no save spells for back up. Their shapechange is also an amazing ability to fall back on. The psion on the other hand doesnt seem to have sweet of buffs. They do have the astral construct which seems like a sweet deal but I really have no idea how it would compare at epic levels or against the creatures a wizard could gate in. From what I have seen with epic level saves, AC, etc. I would have to say that a melee character would probably do more consistent damage since they dont deal with SR/PR and DC's but rather AC (which doesnt scale as fast as attack) and DR (which can easily be overcome). Wizards and Clerics have a way to deal with that, they have shapechange and divine favor respectively. The psion has metamorphisis, which only allows to 15 HD and a greater version which allows up to 25 HD and costs xp. However, a psion has mind switch, true but most of the monsters worth mind switching with to become true beasts in combat have immunity to mind effects. What is there to mind switch into at high levels and what buffs are there? Also, is astral construct worth it for a level 30 manifester? [Edit] I just remembered that Shapechange is a max of 25 hd as well. That evens the playing field more but greater metamorphisis still requires XP.
hovnarr 06-07-07, 03:08 AM	OK, naturally it's possible that some foes that you encounter at epic levels are best handled with save-or-dies. What you need to consider though, is that the most challenging foes in epic are probably NPCs with PC class levels, and that they can easily have items/feats/tricks that make them immune to anything that isn't a [no, no] effect. I wouldn't go into epic without Decerebrate, Ecto Cocoon Mass and Dominate - or any other set of 3 save-or-die-powers that target different saves. But I also wouldn't count on them getting the job done. What is there to mind switch into at high levels and what buffs are there? Also, is astral construct worth it for a level 30 manifester? Just to clarify, Greater Metamorphosis and Shapechange are almost identical effects, except for the small XP cost for metamorphosis. Other notable buffs include (true) mind switch and fusion. Fusion is fantastic since you can combine traits of two creatures than can make you immune against 90% of all attacks. Buffing is generally a forte of psions thanks to Temporal Acceleration, which means you can get fully buffed in an immediate action by augmenting/extending it. For mind switch, you can typically switch to anything you could Shapechange into, but try to abuse the fact that you can't dispel or even disjoin true mind switch. One way to become completely immune against almost all attacks at epic levels is to: *TMS into a hellwasp swarm (immune to physical damage, can't be the target of any spell, never reduced to a dying state) *Grab the feat Permanent Emanation (Null Psionics Field) (immune to all magic even if it doesn't target. Only instantaneous creation effects that affect an area get through, as do certain epic spells). Then you can just toggle NPF off and manifest normal Metamorphosis to assume your usual old humanoid form in social situations. Better yet, crawl into a skin of proteus instead. Astral Construct is typically useless at level 30, unless you work out epic constructs with your DM. I think they have already been statted up somewhere.
Deveral 06-07-07, 04:00 AM	Hovnarr, thanks for your reply. I figured that Astral Construct was useless at epic levels unless something was done with the DM to give them more oompf. As for the save or dies, I figured that would be the case. For the no save, no power resistance powers, the only power I am aware of that accomplishes both is swarm of crystals and the damage from that is extremely weak. I didnt think of the fusion strategy and I will look into it. As for the true mind switch, would the null psionics field impede my ability to cast powers? Also, what is a skin of proteous and where can I find it?
hovnarr 06-07-07, 04:27 AM	As for the save or dies, I figured that would be the case. For the no save, no power resistance powers, the only power I am aware of that accomplishes both is swarm of crystals and the damage from that is extremely weak. Yeah, but you should compare it to higher damage [half, no] powers, since you can expect most foes to save for half anyway. It's slightly inferior to Tornado Blast, but one of the few powers you can count on to almost always work when you need to get damage across. Arcane magic has the fog powers instead for a [no, no] effect, but it deals acid damage, so it's easily resisted. Also, the psionic save-or-dies are ideal if you know your enemies weak spot (if he has one). If he has high SR/PR but a beatable reflex save, you can cocoon him. If he has a lesser cohort bodyguard (typical meat shield with poor Will save) maybe you can Dominate it. It's great if you can get away with it, and you have a sufficient amount of power slots to have a few more situational "bombs" and a few sure-fire bread and butter powers like Greater Metamorphosis and Tornado Blast that will always get the job done eventually. As for the true mind switch, would the null psionics field impede my ability to cast powers? Yes, but dismissing and restarting a Permanent Emanation is a free action, so you can manifest all you want on your turn and then get the shield back on line. If readied actions against you would be a problem ("when he switches off the emanation, I hit him with meteor shower"), just use your basic swarm damage instead and stock up on feats that increase the damage dice. Also, what is a skin of proteous and where can I find it? A psionic item, can be found in the SRD. Basically gives you permanent metamorphosis at will, capped at ML 7. Perfect for simpler utility forms, impersonation/disguise etc. Pricey at about 80k, but it's not like you'll be using that many items as an NPF swarm anyway...
Deveral 06-07-07, 05:05 AM	Could I use any items as a NPF Swarm? [Edit] I guess AC and such wouldnt really matter as a swarm but wisdom stat is a stat I would like to keep as high as possible.
hovnarr 06-07-07, 08:53 AM	Could I use any items as a NPF Swarm? [Edit] I guess AC and such wouldnt really matter as a swarm but wisdom stat is a stat I would like to keep as high as possible. Not in swarm form I suppose. Unless your DM would let you have a few ioun stones in orbit around you or something like that. But the beauty of it is that it doesn't show as long as you have the NPF switched off and use Skin of Proteus. When the proverbial $hit hits the fan, you go "free action: activate NPF emanation" and it will surpress the skin of proteus and turn you into your "normal" swarm form automagically. While metamorphed to your normal form thanks to the skin, you could of course have any items you feel are appropriate - mainly some utility items or stuff that help out with social situations (I often craft a psicrown with all those handy low level social powers so I don't need to clutter my known powers with them). You can also spend your gold on manuals for an inherent bonus to any stats you care about. Of course, check all this with your DM before you build a character around it. Chances are pretty high he'll have a say on the matter. Though it depends on how high a powered game you're playing. If it isn't completely cutthroat, you can manage with fusion or telekinetic sphere in more difficult battles.
Deveral 06-07-07, 01:34 PM	The DM said go all out for this game. In fact, I might be one of the weaker ones. I need to check up on that. Tomes for stat bonuses and Wishes for stat point stack correct? I want to get my wisdom as high as possible.
Lycanthromancer 06-07-07, 02:22 PM	They only stack if they're used in succession, and only up to +5. Epic wishes might get around this, however.
crizhII 06-07-07, 02:32 PM	The DM said go all out for this game. In fact, I might be one of the weaker ones. I need to check up on that. Tomes for stat bonuses and Wishes for stat point stack correct? I want to get my wisdom as high as possible. Depends on your DM. Tomes aren't wishes which could be interpreted as making them not suitable for the wishes stacking rules in wish... However 5 powerstones of Reality Revision don't cost much more than a tome. For total efficiency buy powerstones of twinned Reality Revision, you can gain an inherent bonus of +5 for only 88275gp or +4 for only 59450gp, using that technique. Of course if you mean does the +5 inherent from a tome stack with the +5 inherent you can get from wishes then no. Inherent dude.
Deveral 06-07-07, 02:58 PM	Duh. I am an idiot for forgetting that. Where can I find the powerstones? Also, is there an HD limit to what I can mind switch with?
Lycanthromancer 06-07-07, 03:04 PM	Either make the power stones yourself, or get them from another psion. And the text for mind switch is here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mind_Switch_(Power)). Make sure you knock the thing unconscious first, so it can't make it's save (it's considered willing if it's unconscious).
crizhII 06-07-07, 03:14 PM	it's considered willing if it's unconscious. Carefull now... :D
Deveral 06-07-07, 08:27 PM	I meant what book can I find the rules for the powerstones. Sorry for the confusion.
Tyroki 06-07-07, 09:03 PM	I meant what book can I find the rules for the powerstones. Sorry for the confusion. Isn't that in the SRD? O.o Ah, here we go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingPowerSt ones) Thats for making them yourself. The activation stuff and the like is in the SRD as well. Look in the Psionic Items section.
hovnarr 06-08-07, 03:39 AM	Deveral - cool. Which level will you be starting at then? Btw, I'm having a hard time seeing how you could be more powerful than completely immune to 99.9% of all attacks, but hey - it's epic I suppose. For the full monty, why not mind switch to the Tarrasque? It's been suggested before, and is actually relatively easy to do if you can just find him (easy with high level Seer powers that can be grabbed momentarily with epic feats) and get your DM's blessing. And think what your epic friends will say! "Hey, look at me guys, I'm big T!"
Lycanthromancer 06-08-07, 01:14 PM	Big T? They call me... MISTER T!
Tyroki 06-08-07, 06:16 PM	Big T? They call me... MISTER T! "I pity the fool who messes with me!"
Deveral 06-08-07, 06:48 PM	The Tarrasque is 48 HD, meaning that I wouldnt be able to true mind switch with one until I was at least level 48, correct? I would believe it would be a superior strategy to true mind switch with a templated creature at a much lower HD. A paragon hellwasp swarm, for example, might be more acceptable for now. It's a one nighter starting at level 30. Any more nights played are up to the DM. As of right now, my character will be the most powerful rule abidding character. That is, I wont be using loopholes to gain immense amounts of power. My character will probably be the 3rd most powerful character and thats a distant 3rd, believe me.
Millenia 06-08-07, 08:17 PM	The Tarrasque is 48 HD, meaning that I wouldnt be able to true mind switch with one until I was at least level 48, correct? Correct - if you did nothing to raise or lower your manifester level. However, you can use feats such as Overchannel (raise ML by 3 at level 15+), Transcend Limits (found in Hyperconscious, increases ML by 4 at level 17+), and perhaps a homebrewed Epic Overchannel to be able to mind switched with the Tarrasque at a lower level.
Deveral 06-08-07, 08:23 PM	That is not a bad idea. I was thinking of doing a level of wilder and going into Anarchic Initiate which is another +3 to manifester level. So far thats a +7 just from those. However, if I could attain a manifester level high enough for mind switching with a Tarrasque, I am sure there are more creatures far better to mind switch into. Maybe not even as high of HD as the tarrasque but if the creature was humanoid, I could use equipment. Is this a correct assumption?
Tyroki 06-08-07, 08:33 PM	That is not a bad idea. I was thinking of doing a level of wilder and going into Anarchic Initiate which is another +3 to manifester level. So far thats a +7 just from those. However, if I could attain a manifester level high enough for mind switching with a Tarrasque, I am sure there are more creatures far better to mind switch into. Maybe not even as high of HD as the tarrasque but if the creature was humanoid, I could use equipment. Is this a correct assumption? +7 to manifester levels?! O.o Just from THAT?!
BloodSpill 06-09-07, 01:53 AM	Improved Overchannel + Talented. Double your ML for 1st-3rd powers in exchange for your psionic focus. I'm guessing you would use Telekinetic Thrust in this situation, right?
crizhII 06-09-07, 09:55 AM	Improved Overchannel + Talented. Double your ML for 1st-3rd powers in exchange for your psionic focus. I'm guessing you would use Telekinetic Thrust in this situation, right? Improved Overchannel is in CPsi for whoever thought it needed to be homebrewed. Up to double ML. You could easily get Mister T at level 30 with that.....
Deveral 06-10-07, 01:22 AM	With that, I could easily find a creature much more powerful and able to use equipment.
hovnarr 06-10-07, 12:51 PM	Sorry, should have clarified that the "be Mr. T" trick uses Enervation or similar negative energy effects to lower the effective level of T rather than increasing your own ML - a trick that could probably be pulled on any number of epic monster as well if these are more to your liking. I'm very fond of swarms though. Surely, it should be possible to whip up an epic sized swarm and switch to it?
Deveral 06-10-07, 07:33 PM	I was actually looking for an epic sized swarm to mind switch into if I didnt find any epic humanoids to my liking. Undead might be good but I lose HP turning into one (no con score) and while they have amazing immunities and abilities, I can be turned relatively easily and its not very hard to combat undead. I was thinking a demon or devil might be fun. Anyone have an archived list of epic monsters that can be mind switched with?