Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Water_To_Fire 08-16-07, 12:36 PM	So, how do you think it will be? Will it be part of 'core' D&D? How will it be different from the rules presented in the XPH? I'm hoping it will be core, but I don't think it's likely to happen.
AntiDjinn 08-16-07, 12:52 PM	It won't be core, at least not in the sense of being included in the Player's Handbook. They will follow the format that has worked for them: Sell a basic player's book for under $40, then a separate psionics book in the $29-$34 range. This formula has been a proven money maker. They are not going to boost the cost of the basic book and potentially sell fewer copies, when we have already shown them we will buy a separate book. The 4th ed. DMG, on the other hand, we might hope would at least address psionic rules. The book can take the added page count and increased cost because only one member of each gaming group needs to own it. The same could be said of 4th ed. monster books; no reason they can't contain more material and be a little more expensive because only one copy needs to be purchased per group.
Tempest Stormwind 08-16-07, 01:07 PM	This is not the place to be discussing this. 4e has not been *officially* announced (YES, I know about the leak; I was there when it happened) and when it is announced discussion relating to it belongs on the 4e forums. (In fact, it should be locked; see here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13427258&postcount=22).) At the moment, this is idle speculation that is spreading like wildfire despite having no actual substance. The psi boards have, mercifully, been spared the worst of it so far.
Bacris 08-16-07, 02:42 PM	Actually, 4E was announced last night at GenCon :) The PHB is expected May, 2008. June 2008 for MM, July 2008 for DMG (I think that's right). But the official postings on this board I believe are later tonight.
Tempest Stormwind 08-16-07, 02:52 PM	Actually, 4E was announced last night at GenCon :) The PHB is expected May, 2008. June 2008 for MM, July 2008 for DMG (I think that's right). But the official postings on this board I believe are later tonight. Observe the link I posted. It contains the following line from the community liason account: The WizOs will be moderating this forum and others. They are acting on the direction of Wizards of the Coast, so if you're upset with their moderation, please don't take it out on the WizOs. Their goals will be clear: Keep 4th Edition discussion in the 4E forum. This might mean locking threads and/or moving posts.
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 03:00 PM	I'm honestly kind of burned up about the whole thing. If psionics makes it into core, I'll be jumping for joy and singing the praises of 4e, but we all know that won't happen. As it is, I'm just cheesed that I'll have another stack of useless sourcebooks gathering dust while I drain my bank account on new versions of books I already have. ...It's just like being in college again.
Bacris 08-16-07, 03:15 PM	Observe the link I posted. It contains the following line from the community liason account: My post was in response to you saying it hadn't been announced - regardless of where it should go, saying it hasn't been announced when it has is incorrect :) The 4th Edition Forum leak is different than the official GenCon announcement made last night
Diplominator 08-16-07, 05:13 PM	I read something about 4e having "alternate power sources," so...there's hope.
sijigs 08-16-07, 05:38 PM	Actually, 4E was announced last night at GenCon :) The PHB is expected May, 2008. June 2008 for MM, July 2008 for DMG (I think that's right). But the official postings on this board I believe are later tonight. Great - got enough time to plan a big bank heist. Anyone with me?
Lazigothi 08-16-07, 05:51 PM	In about 66 minutes, the splash page will change. Even changing to announce "4ed," would they still have the inclination to divulge everything about it at that time, let alone regarding psionics? At Gen Con, did they just say something like "expect 4ed" or did they have anything more concrete as to any actual crunch of these books? I'm guessing the info was on the sparse side. As to the Wiz-O's restricting to 4ed boards, did they intend to mean to include psionics if part of the conjecture includes psionics?
Water_To_Fire 08-16-07, 06:12 PM	Oh. I didn't know we had 4.e forums.
AntiDjinn 08-16-07, 08:19 PM	More relevant to the psionics board than the arrival of 4.0 is the retirement of 3.5. There are many personal projects on this board (such as build guides, power and feat analyses, the FAQ, and original feats, powers, and PrCs, etc.) from a variety of board participants. At some point they will become largely irrelevant, and that is a 3.5 issue so we can discuss it here if we like. Some will prove to be easy to update, some will eventually have to be rebuilt from scratch or simply become message board ephemera. People will doubtless continue to post new 3.5 material, but as the end of the year approaches working with a lame duck system will seem like struggling to redecorate your stateroom on the Titanic after the iceberg. It is difficult to write original feats, powers, base and prestige classes, items, and creatures when you don't know how they are going to be formatted, or if they are going to soon prove completely irrelevant. The 3.0 FAQ was compiled and maintained by Dr. Draco. Tempest Stormwind has undertaken the 3.5 version and kept it up to date. How long does it stay? Tempest, are you planning to do the 4.0 FAQ or is it too soon to tell? Lycanthromancer, are you still planning on putting development time into overhauling the 3.5 powers? Bacris, what about the Myth thread? 4.0 may be so good as to require no defense (or, may be so flawed as to be indefensible) but in any case the relevance of 3.5 defense probably ends when 3.5 does. That is, aside from groups who will cling to 3.5 and refuse to make the 4.0 jump. Which brings up the next point: Archiving of major 3.5 psionics threads. We should ask the mods to set a date at which the last of 3.5 becomes a permanent read-only record. As for the date of the sea-change, recall that for 3.5 it wasn't the street date of the XPH. By mutual consent of the frequent responders it was when Psi 3.5 was added to the SRD. After that time, the correct answer to "how many points can I spend manifesting a power?" was: "equal to your manifester level" not "your manifester level minus 1" (the correct answer under 3.0). This was useful because it is so much easier to cite a source from the SRD than to copy text from a book. Psi 4.0 might follow a year or more after the initial books, so I suppose for now the best answer is to assume the current system is the only system: Newbie questions should get the 3.5 answer until psi 4.0 is in the SRD.
Tempest Stormwind 08-16-07, 08:27 PM	Tempest, are you planning to do the 4.0 FAQ or is it too soon to tell? I can't speak for the others, but I'll be looking around. If I like 4e, and we get proper psionics support*, I'll provide another FAQ. Do note that I don't believe they're retiring the 3.5 SRD, which means that Dreamscarred will still be able to operate. * I say this because of the following, lifted from the playtest articles, which will be of serious interest to this board. You see, Bruce Cordell is involved in the 4e playtesting, and has played a psion. June 28th, Thursday Night, Wizards Conference Room (Wayne Manor). Campaign Arc: Castle Smoulderthorn DM: Dave Noonan Players: Bruce Cordell (yours truly), Richard Baker, Logan Bonner, and Toby Latin Before we begin play, another player is giving Rich grief about one of Rich’s character’s abilities that grants the rest of us a blanket +2 to saves; it just ain’t sexy. Rich says something like, “I don’t know, I doubt I’ll use it that much, but who knows, maybe everyone in the party will get entangled.” Sure enough, not 10 minutes later this fire-crazed flame priest has entangled half the party with fire snakes! Rich throws up his +2 to saves and, voila, at least two of us get free immediately. I guess that power isn’t so corner case after all. In my case, I’ve thrown together a “psion.” It’s because prior to the shift to the new playtest rules, I was playing a psion elan named Infandous. You wonder, why the scare quotes? Well, just between you and me, updated-Infandous-the-psion is actually a wizard with the serial numbers filed off. Anyhow, I missed the last few sessions, so I’m slightly confused when the session begins—apparently the group is still breathing hard from their last session, not even rested or healed, when we hear a shuffle of footsteps from behind a set of double doors. The doors aren’t completely closed, so I “mentally” whip them open from across the room. Coming down the hallway is a troop of azer, some sort of burning serpent, and the flame priest I mentioned earlier. And it was a fight! And . . . we won. Without really breaking a sweat, either, truth be told. Emboldened, we advanced down that hallway now littered with azer remains and ash, took a right, and pretty quickly found a dusty lintel inscribed with the words: Tomb of the Black Host. “Sounds like someplace loot is stored,” said Infandous, eager to expand his repertoire of cool equipment. A little more discussion, and we pushed on the door. It opened . . . And Dave spent nearly 10 minutes constructing (using Dungeon Tiles!) an ominous, crypt-lined ruin complete with three golden sarcophagi that emanated magic. Dave did a good job laying out the floor plan of the room. Such a good job that we lingered in the door looking into the shadow-lined mausoleum for a minute, then, another . . . then decided as a group that, loot or no loot, perhaps it would be better to let whatever lay in the deathly quite of the tomb alone. So, we closed the door and continued down the main hallway. Sorry, Dave. What I take from that is that they've adopted Saga's approach to superclass archetypes with individual classes being a combination of talent trees and personal flavor. What he calls "wizard" is likely a superclass "spellcaster" that serves as wizards, sorcerers, psions, and similar just by selection of talent trees. I would love to think that they also killed vancian magic with this, too. The drawback? We have no way of knowing if it actually is a series of published talent trees... or if he's just playing a reflavored wizard because there's no psionic support in the playtest document.
Bacris 08-16-07, 08:53 PM	Honestly, the Myth thread is relevant until the XPH is officially "out of date" Given I seriously doubt that 4th Ed will have psionics built-in, it will likely remain relevant for psi-fans until a 4th Ed psi-system is put in place. :) After that happens, it may warrant retiring that thread. And given that WotC has said 4th Ed will have an OGL / SRD, I'd expect to see Dreamscarred still going strong - I don't intend to slow the release schedule, I'll just updated 3.5 content to 4th Ed - and do it better than other companies who did 3.0 -> 3.5 conversions ;)
Lycanthromancer 08-16-07, 09:20 PM	Ack
Salla 08-16-07, 09:49 PM	* I say this because of the following, lifted from the playtest articles, which will be of serious interest to this board. You see, Bruce Cordell is involved in the 4e playtesting, and has played a psion. This is, in fact, garnering 4th Edition points in my eyes.
MaverickWolf 08-16-07, 10:00 PM	For all those excited about Bruce Cordell playing a "psion", you may wish to view this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13440523&postcount=92).
AntiDjinn 08-16-07, 10:05 PM	That is more or less how I thought things would go. Board work such as answering questions from newbies will continue according to the current system until the new system is published, read and digested, and added to the SRD. Psi 3.5 is what we have to work with. One of the frequently asked questions may require a different answer: "Should I buy the Expanded Psionics Handbook?" On the DM board someone has already asked if he should buy the book to run Eberron (don't look Tempest. The spelling will make you want to tell him to buy the 3.0 book and use psionic combat) and was told "Don't buy anything that will be worthless in May" The fact is we don't have an easy answer to the question anymore. We don't know if psi 3.5 will be obsolete when the 4.0 PHB is released (maybe it will be so different that the rules sets won't work together) or if the system will stand for the year or so it takes them to release psi 4.0 as a separate book. Right now all we can say is: The XPH is current, 4.0 is coming in '08, your call." On the other hand, creation of new material or revision of existing material will probably drop off sharply. Writing new stuff is much more time and labor intensive than simply knowing the rules and providing rules assistance, RP and character build guidance, etc. At this point we don't even know if 4.0 will include PrCs, much less their format, we don't know if anything we create will be 4.0 functional or not.
Guroth the Forsaken 08-17-07, 01:19 PM	There is a reply from a WizO (Dave?) who was the DM at this session in one of the 4e threads explaining that Bruce played the Psion as such because there aren't any 4e psionics rules created yet. This implies that: 1.) no core psionics (this might change though) 2.) they will remain at least somewhat spearate from regualr magic, and not integrated in w./ wizards. Not sure if I mind them separate from core or not. A separate book means we have to wait, but it means more material in a dedicated book later.
Psionx 08-17-07, 02:03 PM	What I'd like but probably won't happen. 1> Loss of psionic focus 2> Fill in the gaps between arcane magic and psionics 3> Explanations on the psicrystal and some of the obscure powers 4> Improve astral construct
Crusher217 08-17-07, 02:17 PM	What I'd like but probably won't happen. 1> Loss of psionic focus What? Why? The psionic focus works as a good balancing mechanic and provides flavor to make psions different from other magic types like arcane and divine.
ck2001wendt 08-17-07, 04:05 PM	That is more or less how I thought things would go. Board work such as answering questions from newbies will continue according to the current system until the new system is published, read and digested, and added to the SRD. Psi 3.5 is what we have to work with. One of the frequently asked questions may require a different answer: "Should I buy the Expanded Psionics Handbook?" On the DM board someone has already asked if he should buy the book to run Eberron (don't look Tempest. The spelling will make you want to tell him to buy the 3.0 book and use psionic combat) and was told "Don't buy anything that will be worthless in May" The fact is we don't have an easy answer to the question anymore. We don't know if psi 3.5 will be obsolete when the 4.0 PHB is released (maybe it will be so different that the rules sets won't work together) or if the system will stand for the year or so it takes them to release psi 4.0 as a separate book. Right now all we can say is: The XPH is current, 4.0 is coming in '08, your call." On the other hand, creation of new material or revision of existing material will probably drop off sharply. Writing new stuff is much more time and labor intensive than simply knowing the rules and providing rules assistance, RP and character build guidance, etc. At this point we don't even know if 4.0 will include PrCs, much less their format, we don't know if anything we create will be 4.0 functional or not. There's also the real possibility that a good number of groups will just continue playing 3.5, which suggests that it's worth it to continue producing 3rd party material and custom feats and powers. For many it's too soon after 3.0 dropped to go with a new set, and it's not clear that 4.0 will represent the kind of clear improvement over 3.0/.5 that they represented over 2.0. This is certainly what my groups are planning on doing, even though we've seen SAGA SW and it looked all right.
Psionx 08-18-07, 03:28 PM	What? Why? The psionic focus works as a good balancing mechanic and provides flavor to make psions different from other magic types like arcane and divine. Thats like saying psionic combat was a good balancing of psionics and made it different. It did make it different, but it nerfed more than it balanced. Maybe, just maybe on psionic feats like deep impact or speed of thought but it needs to be taken off metapsionic feats at the least because it really sucks to not be able to put more than 1 metapsionic feat on a power without taking extra feats. As for an explanation of the rest 2> Counterspelling, invisibility that actually doesn't give saves to everyone, illusions and so on 3> Others have asked for it, I stick with the 24 hours of meditation to bring back psicrystal bit but I'd like confirmation. 4> It got nerfed in CPsi which is why I didn't buy CPsi. It should be made better. EDIT: Going to post this on the wish list bcos thats where it belongs.
InkBlot 08-18-07, 04:57 PM	I imagine psionics in 4E will use a completely new paradigm. Possibly something more like the Force in StarWars Saga Edition. If things change that much then psionic focus won't be translatable, or won't be used the same way.
QuarianRex 08-18-07, 06:32 PM	What? Why? The psionic focus works as a good balancing mechanic and provides flavor to make psions different from other magic types like arcane and divine. Psionic focus is also cumbersome and overused. Not necessarily the concept of psionic focus but the idiotic need to expend it for any psionic feat of merit. Sure, it balances for Deep Impact and that sort of thing but having to stop and meditate for every hop you make with Mental Leap? Thats just crazy talk. If more of the psionic feats were based on maintaining psionic focus (or a PP reserve like in 3.0) then the system would be much more interesting and retain more of the "flavour" of psionics.
brothersutek 08-18-07, 09:26 PM	Psionic focus is also cumbersome and overused. Not necessarily the concept of psionic focus but the idiotic need to expend it for any psionic feat of merit. Sure, it balances for Deep Impact and that sort of thing but having to stop and meditate for every hop you make with Mental Leap? Thats just crazy talk. If more of the psionic feats were based on maintaining psionic focus (or a PP reserve like in 3.0) then the system would be much more interesting and retain more of the "flavour" of psionics. +++ Amen!!! I like the idea of balance but every time I want to do anything I have to stop to meditate... well that just makes me pick less feats that require focus. Meh whatever. :twocents:
BadCatMan 08-18-07, 09:58 PM	Just a terrible terrible thought: 1st Edition Psionics - bad 2nd Edition Psionics - bad 3rd Edition Psionics - bad 3.5 Edition Psionics - good Complete Psionics - bad 4th Edition Psionics - ??? Will the curse reassert itself? :eek:
Psionx 08-18-07, 10:24 PM	maybe it can go bad, bad, bad, good, bad, good, really good 3, 1, -1? plz :bigeyes:?
MaverickWolf 08-18-07, 10:25 PM	Thankfully, I doubt it. While Complete Psionic was and is horrid, the fact of the matter is that pretty much all of WotC's recent material has been below-quality by a fairly large margin. I'm placing bets that this is due to the amount of effort that's been put into 4th Edition and diverted from 3.5. However, they couldn't just stop releasing 3.5 books, so we instead ended up with not-so-stellar attempts at books to keep us content, hence Complete Psionic. I'm keeping my hopes up that quality will return to what I have come to expect come 4th Edition (though I'm not sure I'll be converting in the first place).
InkBlot 08-18-07, 11:32 PM	That makes sense, Maverick Wolf. The best books that have come out lately are all things they said were related to experiments for 4e: Tome Of Battle, Complete Scoundrel, etc.. The Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium were good too, but more from a utility perspective (although item levels rocked my socks).
caeruleus 08-19-07, 04:07 AM	For all those excited about Bruce Cordell playing a "psion", you may wish to view this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13440523&postcount=92). But, you may be happy to know that in this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13457928#post13457928), someone who was at one of the GenCon seminars reported the following: -New power sources- Arcane, Divine, Martial, and eventualy Psionic (not core, but it will be supported) so that everyone has choices, beyond clerics and wizards choosing which spell to use, while the fighter gets to choose how much he power attacks by.
Suldarr'essalar 08-19-07, 04:09 AM	What I'd like but probably won't happen. 2> Fill in the gaps between arcane magic and psionicsThey wanted other classes to "playable", not only the wizard, the cleric and the druid, so my guess is that they will somehow lessen the spellcasters power (and magic effect overall, since classes and magic had the biggest impact on the character). 3> Explanations on the psicrystal and some of the obscure powers 4> Improve astral construct I'd like to see a more subtle approach to psionics, which excludes almost all energy powers, and almost all metacreativity powers, and focus more on telepatic, clairsentience and telekinetic powers.
TheAnthroDM 08-19-07, 05:03 AM	I have a good feeling about 4e, but a bad feeling about 4e psionics. Mainly because they seem to have a variation of the Vancian system going on for most core classes.
Fabius Maximus 08-19-07, 08:39 AM	I have a good feeling about 4e, but a bad feeling about 4e psionics. Mainly because they seem to have a variation of the Vancian system going on for most core classes. That doesn't mean psionics will have something similar. They didn't have in 3rd edition. I think power points would still work well under the new rules, so why change them? Never tweak a running system, I say.
DisposableHero_ 08-19-07, 10:54 AM	And now friends we enter a delightful phase of speculating and postulating brought about by a few choice leaks and an official announcement. You'll forgive me if I take everything to this point with a grain of salt. I'll be delightfully surprised if anything in 4th edition surpasses the designation of SSDD with respect to 3.5. But as you may have noticed, thats a discussion that is a year or more in the making. A cursory glance at my 3rd edition and 3.5 players handbooks tells me that under WotCs current business model the life cycle of an edition is 3 to 5 years. Psionics particularly from the quotes on this board looks like SSDD, though thats fine as it works the way it is now and there isn't a glaring need to change very much other than the policies for supporting it. My only major concern, is this: Will psionics still be OGL in 4th edition? The 4th ed system will be, but they did not add other good systems like Incanum or Tome of Battle to the OGL when they were released during 3.5, and I wonder if they consider it a mistake to have made psionics OGL. The bottom line for me though is, in a year I will get to read the SRD for a new gaming system, and see if I like it. It appears though that it will be decidedly longer than that before I get to read new psionic rules and see if I like those. PS - I wouldn't be terribly surprised if an MP/Augment system became the base magic system in 4th edition, and I wonder how many Vance fans are on the Design team this go around.