Psionics is Different [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionics is Different [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sooperspook
11-10-07, 05:56 AM How many people have used the "Psionics is different from magic" rules?

How did it work out for you? What problems did you run into that you weren't expecting?
Any benefits you found that you weren't expecting?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
11-10-07, 08:46 AM I've never actually played with the "Psionics is different" rules, but I can give you a preview of what you'll hear: "Groan. Please man, do yourself a favor and forget about it. It's more of a headache than it's worth." It can also lead to game balance issues unless psionic characters and items become more common; otherwise the one party psion becomes nigh invincible against the bbeg mage, cleric, or any anti-magic character. That said, even though I've heard it's a bad idea, I'm still probably going to give a shot one day myself - assuming the players don't object to it.
Sysane
11-10-07, 08:57 AM I’m familiar with both. I’ve DMed Dark Sun games that default to psionic as different and played in campaigns such as Greyhawk where magic and psionics are treated the same.

In future games I would like to tinker with the third option of that psionics and magic have a diminished effect against one another.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
11-10-07, 10:17 AM Ah, diminished effect. I'd rather do that than just total incompatibility. How does that work again?
Bacris
11-10-07, 11:12 AM I played a psion in a game where psionics was treated as different. Since he wasn't much for having null psionics field / power resistance up, I didn't notice much in the way of enemies bypassing his defenses, but the DM got annoyed when a creature with SR 30 and other anti-magic effects up got trounced by the psion's powers, because they bypassed it.
Orenmir
11-10-07, 11:21 AM Ah, diminished effect. I'd rather do that than just total incompatibility. How does that work again?

An example:

A creature with SR 20 is automatically granted PR 10.
A creature with PR 20 is automatically granted SR 10.

Basically, all instances of magic or psionics is halved when translated to the other.

Personally, I don't think that is even worth trying. I'd just stick with Psionics = Magic.
InkBlot
11-10-07, 11:33 AM the DM got annoyed when a creature with SR 30 and other anti-magic effects up got trounced by the psion's powers

Even in Psionics Is Different, the XPH says that powerful creatures must be rewritten to have power resistance as well as spell resistance. The logic given is that such creatures could never survive to become that powerful if they didn't have some way to protect against psychics, and that powerful creatures would have the power to find a way to protect against psychics.

Psionics Is Different also includes new powers and spells: psionic versions of dispel magic, detect magic, and anti-magic field; and magic versions of dispel psionics, detect psionics, and null-psionics field.

If you don't include these last two aspects of Psionics Is Different, then the power imbalance will be very evident. If you don't forget them, then it might work out well enough, so long as neither you nor your player go out of your way to poke the loopholes with a pointy stick. The player will probably be annoyed that he has to spend more of his precious few powers known and more of his power points, just to make sure he's protected against both magic and psionics.
MindFlayerZoidberg
11-10-07, 03:48 PM The campaign I am running I am using the "Psionics is different" variant, but actually one of the main plots elements is going to be bringing "balance" back to Psionics and Magic.

So far I haven't noticed too much of an imbalance, but only one of the PC's is a psionic class and he doesn't use or has encountered the problematic elements of Dispel Psionics, Anti Magic field, or Detect Psionics.

Sometimes I add in PR, sometimes I don't, depending on the situation, however I lower the CR when they face a high level monster without PR.
Dipteran_Legacy
11-10-07, 04:10 PM I've always thought it would be interesting to run with a flat diminished effect along the lines of either -2 or -4 on all relevant checks- dispel psionics would still work on magic, but it would be slightly more difficult for a psion to bring down a wizards buffs than it would be for another wizard.

likewise, an illithid would be slightly less resilient when confronted by a wizard than by a psion, though the psion would enjoy the same edge against a demon or such.

just mho, I've never tried it, so I cant say how massively it would impact things, but I dont think it would unbalance the game, while driving home the point that the two are different, especially if reinforced by a good amount of fluff.
sooperspook
11-10-07, 08:56 PM Well, my first taste of psionics was in AD&D where it was different. and I know all the usual arguments against (and for) it.

I was just wondering if anyone had any differeing experiances.

On a side note, I'm thinking of converting the psion/wilder into something closer to the original psionicist from AD&D. I'll post it here when I'm done.

I may have to change how the powers work too.
Zathress
11-11-07, 12:17 AM I’m familiar with both. I’ve DMed Dark Sun games that default to psionic as different and played in campaigns such as Greyhawk where magic and psionics are treated the same.

In future games I would like to tinker with the third option of that psionics and magic have a diminished effect against one another.

Actually you weren't playing by Dark Sun's rules. They don't use psionics are different by default, they use there own system which is called mostly different.

In Dark sun effects that dispel or negate magic and psionics function equally against each other. Dispel magic/psionics anti magic/psionic field all work equally against one anothers powers and spells. SR and PR fall into this category.

Here what is different, Detect Magic will note the presence of psionics and detect psionics will notice a spell. However they will only note the other as a foreign aura not its strength school/discipline. Example detect magic will notice presence of the psions buffs. The aura of a 1st level psionic caster looks no different then a major psionic artifact to a detect magic spell just the aura from mage armor looks the same as energy immunity to a psioin.

So basically while the two can dispel and negate each other equally they can only vaguely detect or recognize each other.

This is how I handle psionics in my world. For guys like Sorcerers (and psions for that matter). Having to learn both dispel psionics and dispel magic is a major drawback and not all parties are going to have good access to both
Sysane
11-11-07, 10:58 AM Actually you weren't playing by Dark Sun's rules. They don't use psionics are different by default, they use there own system which is called mostly different.
Actually, athas.org hasn't written one way or the other regarding magic/psionic transparency. Unofficially, they sway more towards psionics as being different.
Zathress
11-11-07, 01:49 PM athas.org may not have written anything but dragon magazine has, they printed Darksun Material in several issues 319 and 315 come to mind. 319 has the more important
cnahumck
11-11-07, 04:12 PM From athas.org site. (http://www.athas.org/articles/magicandpsionics.php)
Sysane
11-11-07, 04:36 PM From athas.org site. (http://www.athas.org/articles/magicandpsionics.php)
Ah, forgot about that part of the site. Thanks C ;)
Sysane
11-11-07, 04:41 PM athas.org may not have written anything but dragon magazine has, they printed Darksun Material in several issues 319 and 315 come to mind. 319 has the more important
I'm familiar with those as well. However, I didn't realize that it dealt with the transparency in the way you mentioned.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sooperspook 11-10-07, 05:56 AM	How many people have used the "Psionics is different from magic" rules? How did it work out for you? What problems did you run into that you weren't expecting? Any benefits you found that you weren't expecting?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 11-10-07, 08:46 AM	I've never actually played with the "Psionics is different" rules, but I can give you a preview of what you'll hear: "Groan. Please man, do yourself a favor and forget about it. It's more of a headache than it's worth." It can also lead to game balance issues unless psionic characters and items become more common; otherwise the one party psion becomes nigh invincible against the bbeg mage, cleric, or any anti-magic character. That said, even though I've heard it's a bad idea, I'm still probably going to give a shot one day myself - assuming the players don't object to it.
Sysane 11-10-07, 08:57 AM	I’m familiar with both. I’ve DMed Dark Sun games that default to psionic as different and played in campaigns such as Greyhawk where magic and psionics are treated the same. In future games I would like to tinker with the third option of that psionics and magic have a diminished effect against one another.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 11-10-07, 10:17 AM	Ah, diminished effect. I'd rather do that than just total incompatibility. How does that work again?
Bacris 11-10-07, 11:12 AM	I played a psion in a game where psionics was treated as different. Since he wasn't much for having null psionics field / power resistance up, I didn't notice much in the way of enemies bypassing his defenses, but the DM got annoyed when a creature with SR 30 and other anti-magic effects up got trounced by the psion's powers, because they bypassed it.
Orenmir 11-10-07, 11:21 AM	Ah, diminished effect. I'd rather do that than just total incompatibility. How does that work again? An example: A creature with SR 20 is automatically granted PR 10. A creature with PR 20 is automatically granted SR 10. Basically, all instances of magic or psionics is halved when translated to the other. Personally, I don't think that is even worth trying. I'd just stick with Psionics = Magic.
InkBlot 11-10-07, 11:33 AM	the DM got annoyed when a creature with SR 30 and other anti-magic effects up got trounced by the psion's powers Even in Psionics Is Different, the XPH says that powerful creatures must be rewritten to have power resistance as well as spell resistance. The logic given is that such creatures could never survive to become that powerful if they didn't have some way to protect against psychics, and that powerful creatures would have the power to find a way to protect against psychics. Psionics Is Different also includes new powers and spells: psionic versions of dispel magic, detect magic, and anti-magic field; and magic versions of dispel psionics, detect psionics, and null-psionics field. If you don't include these last two aspects of Psionics Is Different, then the power imbalance will be very evident. If you don't forget them, then it might work out well enough, so long as neither you nor your player go out of your way to poke the loopholes with a pointy stick. The player will probably be annoyed that he has to spend more of his precious few powers known and more of his power points, just to make sure he's protected against both magic and psionics.
MindFlayerZoidberg 11-10-07, 03:48 PM	The campaign I am running I am using the "Psionics is different" variant, but actually one of the main plots elements is going to be bringing "balance" back to Psionics and Magic. So far I haven't noticed too much of an imbalance, but only one of the PC's is a psionic class and he doesn't use or has encountered the problematic elements of Dispel Psionics, Anti Magic field, or Detect Psionics. Sometimes I add in PR, sometimes I don't, depending on the situation, however I lower the CR when they face a high level monster without PR.
Dipteran_Legacy 11-10-07, 04:10 PM	I've always thought it would be interesting to run with a flat diminished effect along the lines of either -2 or -4 on all relevant checks- dispel psionics would still work on magic, but it would be slightly more difficult for a psion to bring down a wizards buffs than it would be for another wizard. likewise, an illithid would be slightly less resilient when confronted by a wizard than by a psion, though the psion would enjoy the same edge against a demon or such. just mho, I've never tried it, so I cant say how massively it would impact things, but I dont think it would unbalance the game, while driving home the point that the two are different, especially if reinforced by a good amount of fluff.
sooperspook 11-10-07, 08:56 PM	Well, my first taste of psionics was in AD&D where it was different. and I know all the usual arguments against (and for) it. I was just wondering if anyone had any differeing experiances. On a side note, I'm thinking of converting the psion/wilder into something closer to the original psionicist from AD&D. I'll post it here when I'm done. I may have to change how the powers work too.
Zathress 11-11-07, 12:17 AM	I’m familiar with both. I’ve DMed Dark Sun games that default to psionic as different and played in campaigns such as Greyhawk where magic and psionics are treated the same. In future games I would like to tinker with the third option of that psionics and magic have a diminished effect against one another. Actually you weren't playing by Dark Sun's rules. They don't use psionics are different by default, they use there own system which is called mostly different. In Dark sun effects that dispel or negate magic and psionics function equally against each other. Dispel magic/psionics anti magic/psionic field all work equally against one anothers powers and spells. SR and PR fall into this category. Here what is different, Detect Magic will note the presence of psionics and detect psionics will notice a spell. However they will only note the other as a foreign aura not its strength school/discipline. Example detect magic will notice presence of the psions buffs. The aura of a 1st level psionic caster looks no different then a major psionic artifact to a detect magic spell just the aura from mage armor looks the same as energy immunity to a psioin. So basically while the two can dispel and negate each other equally they can only vaguely detect or recognize each other. This is how I handle psionics in my world. For guys like Sorcerers (and psions for that matter). Having to learn both dispel psionics and dispel magic is a major drawback and not all parties are going to have good access to both
Sysane 11-11-07, 10:58 AM	Actually you weren't playing by Dark Sun's rules. They don't use psionics are different by default, they use there own system which is called mostly different. Actually, athas.org hasn't written one way or the other regarding magic/psionic transparency. Unofficially, they sway more towards psionics as being different.
Zathress 11-11-07, 01:49 PM	athas.org may not have written anything but dragon magazine has, they printed Darksun Material in several issues 319 and 315 come to mind. 319 has the more important
cnahumck 11-11-07, 04:12 PM	From athas.org site. (http://www.athas.org/articles/magicandpsionics.php)
Sysane 11-11-07, 04:36 PM	From athas.org site. (http://www.athas.org/articles/magicandpsionics.php) Ah, forgot about that part of the site. Thanks C ;)
Sysane 11-11-07, 04:41 PM	athas.org may not have written anything but dragon magazine has, they printed Darksun Material in several issues 319 and 315 come to mind. 319 has the more important I'm familiar with those as well. However, I didn't realize that it dealt with the transparency in the way you mentioned.