Psionics vs. arcane magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionics vs. arcane magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
IronMouse
07-14-07, 01:51 PM I'm thinking about replacing arcane magic with something else. Not only because it's so difficult to control and tends to break the game later on, I also want to give my setting a unique feeling.

While divine magic still exists (but is limited), arcane magic is mostly out of reach for PCs, it's supposed to be something mysterious that's only used by strange monsters (dragons, demons...). Maybe sorcerers exist but they're hunted as abominations.

Now, what can I use to replace it? Psionics look good at a first look but I have no experience with them. I've just read a bit through the SRD and the FAQ and yeah, I got it, they're not broken ;)
But against WHAT are they balanced? Are psionic characters less game-breaking (or -controlling) than arcane casters or just as bad?
I also planned to replace the melee classes with the ones from ToB. Can I consider a ToB + psionics combination to be mostly "balanced"? Or is there still something I have to worry about?
And I want my game to have a slight "anime-feeling". ToB is obviously good for that, how's psionics?
Do I need only the XPH or should I also try to buy Complete Psionics?

Or is Tome of Magic a better choice?
DarkTouch
07-14-07, 01:59 PM Psionics makes a descent replacement for Arcane magic. My main concern with having Arcane out of the way in general is that there are a few powers out there for psionics that are in there to keep them on par with other casters. With the removal of Arcane from PC hands and the limiting of Divine magic, I'd take a good look at some of the powers that might be 'over the top' for the feel of psionics that you're trying to put together. For an anime feel you're in good shape with psionics... you could probably even get away with just having the psychic warrior and get a good anime feel.

And the XPH is all you need to play 3.5 psionics. You might get some extra mileage out of the Complete psionic. Despite its deservedly bad reputation, the addition of the Lurk and Ardent would help you flesh out some of the psionics flavor a little more.
Tempest Stormwind
07-14-07, 02:07 PM Replacing all magic with psionics and introducing the ToB produces one of the best balances incarnations of D&D to date. Psionics are sufficiently weaker than casters that they don't *totally* overshadow the rest of the game, and martial adepts shore up the versatility issues that plauged melee types from day 1.

You may want to include NPC-available divine magic; I've done this in a setting I'm working on (NPC oracles (adepts), all killoren (Races of the Wild), who can only cast their spells in particular natural settings, from which they never leave. It gives the PCs some form of really long-range divinations and resurrections.)
kyeudo
07-14-07, 02:08 PM Use both Tome of Magic and Psionics is my suggestion. Tome of Magic is realy flavorful, but only Shadow Magic has any potential to be as game controlling as Arcane Magic.
CrimsonDeath
07-15-07, 02:44 AM Replacing all magic with psionics and introducing the ToB produces one of the best balances incarnations of D&D to date. Psionics are sufficiently weaker than casters that they don't *totally* overshadow the rest of the game, and martial adepts shore up the versatility issues that plauged melee types from day 1.

You may want to include NPC-available divine magic; I've done this in a setting I'm working on (NPC oracles (adepts), all killoren (Races of the Wild), who can only cast their spells in particular natural settings, from which they never leave. It gives the PCs some form of really long-range divinations and resurrections.)
Who does healing in the field? Devoted Spirit maneuvers + Empathic Transfer/Vigor/Share Pain with Psicrystal?
red_scare87
07-15-07, 03:41 AM Who does healing in the field?

Ardent with the Life Mantle.
IronMouse
07-15-07, 09:07 AM So it looks like it could work...nice.

About the healing, when I said "limiting" I meant that I kick out the Druid (doesn't really fit, anyway) and replace the Cleric with the Cloistered Cleric variant (then called Priest). Divine magic is available for PCs, but no CoDzilla.

Use both Tome of Magic and Psionics is my suggestion.
Thanks for the suggestion, but my money is limited, so the question is mostly: XPH or ToM? So far, it looks more like XPH...

What kind of classes are the Ardent and Lurk? I would love to have a psionic skillmonkey, to replace the Bard.

And what's up with the Soulknife? I always read that it's underpowered. Is there a "quick fix" for that, like giving it full BAB, or something?
T_Baggins
07-15-07, 12:11 PM I think arcane magic is more powerful than psionics, because look at the massive amount of spells available. There is no equivalant to meteor swarm. And if there is, let me know. Meta-magic is easier. With psionics you can never have more than one meta-psionic feat applied to a power. The advantage of psionics is the saving throw dc is usually higher.
kyeudo
07-15-07, 12:48 PM I think arcane magic is more powerful than psionics, because look at the massive amount of spells available. There is no equivalant to meteor swarm. And if there is, let me know. Meta-magic is easier. With psionics you can never have more than one meta-psionic feat applied to a power. The advantage of psionics is the saving throw dc is usually higher.

You can get two metapsionic feats on a power. Its called Psicrystal Containment.
Tempest Stormwind
07-15-07, 01:02 PM Who does healing in the field? Devoted Spirit maneuvers + Empathic Transfer/Vigor/Share Pain with Psicrystal?

That stunt, along with society minds (Untapped Potential) and Life mantle ardents. I also keep low-end cure potions available as alchemical healing salves. (I've toyed around with those working like fast healing, but in the end just went with regular recover HP options. I remind people that HP can represent something as mundane as a second wind.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but my money is limited, so the question is mostly: XPH or ToM? So far, it looks more like XPH...

The XPH is the better book of the two (as all of it is useful instead of just a third of it), but it's also mostly available for free in the SRD. Take your pick. I'd suggest XPH and then ToM.

What kind of classes are the Ardent and Lurk? I would love to have a psionic skillmonkey, to replace the Bard.

The ardent is like a cleric-of-a-cause, but it's done better mechanically. You choose "mantles" (think domains) for the class and those compose the entirety of their power list. For a class skeleton, it's similar to a cleric (good HD, good armor, medium attack bonus, but limited power selection and poor skills).

The lurk is a psionic assassin. It's not a skillmonkey, but you could liken it to an assassin-themed or thug-themed bard (similar to how the psychic warrior is basically a bard with combat skill instead of music and a buff-themed list). If you want a psionic skill monkey, use the psychic rogue (see the FAQ at the top of the forum).

A society mind (Untapped Potential) is probably the best single-class psionic replacement for the bard in general. It's a support class through and through and can be likened to a psionic bard or a psionic druid (thematically, not mechanically!). Basically, it connects the different people in the party so they function as parts of a greater whole, operating as a single being, sharing each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses (including healing as a single being).

And what's up with the Soulknife? I always read that it's underpowered. Is there a "quick fix" for that, like giving it full BAB, or something?

It is underpowered. A free weapon in exchange for weak class levels isn't very good.

There's no real "quick fix"; full base attack doesn't do much for it (as most of the soulknife's options are akin to pre-chosen fighter feats, the class basically becomes the CW samurai at that point!). Instead, use the variant soulknife presented in Untapped Potential, which makes it more roguelike, assassinlike, and acrobatic (in addition to prestige classing better!).
Fafnir
07-15-07, 02:20 PM A society mind (Untapped Potential) is probably the best single-class psionic replacement for the bard in general. It's a support class through and through and can be likened to a psionic bard or a psionic druid (thematically, not mechanically!). Basically, it connects the different people in the party so they function as parts of a greater whole, operating as a single being, sharing each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses (including healing as a single being).

I second the awesomeness that is the Society Mind. You can also find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=506284), by the way, though I'm not sure if it is updated to the last version (the one in UTP);or download it for free at the Dreamscarred Press site (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php).

There's no real "quick fix"; full base attack doesn't do much for it (as most of the soulknife's options are akin to pre-chosen fighter feats, the class basically becomes the CW samurai at that point!). Instead, use the variant soulknife presented in Untapped Potential, which makes it more roguelike, assassinlike, and acrobatic (in addition to prestige classing better!).

If I remember well the fix in UTP is BlaineTog's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984), right? It's pretty good.

Of course, I highly recommend UTP anyway. The rest of the content is really great too (especially the Marksman...:love:).

Edit: As of now, I'm running a campaign that's near its end, and I was thinking of going psi-only in the next one. I'm considering ToB, including the Sublime Ranger and Marshal, and the Binder. However, I'm still uncertain about negating completely divine magic, and the NPC adepts idea is good, but... I was wondering, what if I includedthe Favored Soul too? What do you think?
Tempest Stormwind
07-15-07, 02:24 PM I second the awesomeness that is the Society Mind. You can also find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=506284), by the way, though I'm not sure if it is updated to the last version (the one in UTP);or download it for free at the Dreamscarred Press site (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php).

There's been a few serious changes to the powers in particular at that first link. The one on Dreamscarred is the most up-to-date one.

I do use one houserule, and really, it was there from the beginning -- society minds can cooperatively heal with fast healing without a feat. The Lend Health feat was added in to appease DMs who thought that out-of-combat healing (difficult to get out-of-combat healing at that) was too powerful.

If I remember well the fix in UTP is BlaineTog's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984), right? It's pretty good.Yes and no. There were a few revisions and streamlining elements there (mostly to clean up a few things and dovetail with the rest of the book), but it fundamentally is the BlaineTog fix.

Of course, I highly recommend UTP anyway. The rest of the content is really great too (especially the Marksman...:love:).

Thank you. SPECIFIC feedback on the marksman is hard to come by, actually, although the general feedback is always positive.
Fafnir
07-15-07, 02:32 PM Thank you. SPECIFIC feedback on the marksman is hard to come by, actually, although the general feedback is always positive.

I'm pretty sure I will DM a group with one in it in the next campaign, so I'll let you know. ;)
CrimsonDeath
07-15-07, 03:38 PM If you want to use the Lurk as a skill-monkey, you could use the Mind's Eye Expanded Classes article that gives it a rogue-ish variant and a ranger-ish variant.

The cloistered cleric doesn't exactly fix the Clericzilla problem because Divine Power still completely replaces your BAB with your level, without restricting your spellcasting. You could fix that by prohibiting (or altering) the feat Divine Metamagic or the feat Persistent Spell (or just prohibiting the combination of the two).
DarkTouch
07-15-07, 08:01 PM Or.. you know, there are no Dieties that give out the 'Divine Power' spell for some reason.
IronMouse
07-16-07, 03:55 AM Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are banned, of course.

Thanks for all the input, that certanly helped. I'll get the XPH and look for Untapped Potential later. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IronMouse 07-14-07, 01:51 PM	I'm thinking about replacing arcane magic with something else. Not only because it's so difficult to control and tends to break the game later on, I also want to give my setting a unique feeling. While divine magic still exists (but is limited), arcane magic is mostly out of reach for PCs, it's supposed to be something mysterious that's only used by strange monsters (dragons, demons...). Maybe sorcerers exist but they're hunted as abominations. Now, what can I use to replace it? Psionics look good at a first look but I have no experience with them. I've just read a bit through the SRD and the FAQ and yeah, I got it, they're not broken ;) But against WHAT are they balanced? Are psionic characters less game-breaking (or -controlling) than arcane casters or just as bad? I also planned to replace the melee classes with the ones from ToB. Can I consider a ToB + psionics combination to be mostly "balanced"? Or is there still something I have to worry about? And I want my game to have a slight "anime-feeling". ToB is obviously good for that, how's psionics? Do I need only the XPH or should I also try to buy Complete Psionics? Or is Tome of Magic a better choice?
DarkTouch 07-14-07, 01:59 PM	Psionics makes a descent replacement for Arcane magic. My main concern with having Arcane out of the way in general is that there are a few powers out there for psionics that are in there to keep them on par with other casters. With the removal of Arcane from PC hands and the limiting of Divine magic, I'd take a good look at some of the powers that might be 'over the top' for the feel of psionics that you're trying to put together. For an anime feel you're in good shape with psionics... you could probably even get away with just having the psychic warrior and get a good anime feel. And the XPH is all you need to play 3.5 psionics. You might get some extra mileage out of the Complete psionic. Despite its deservedly bad reputation, the addition of the Lurk and Ardent would help you flesh out some of the psionics flavor a little more.
Tempest Stormwind 07-14-07, 02:07 PM	Replacing all magic with psionics and introducing the ToB produces one of the best balances incarnations of D&D to date. Psionics are sufficiently weaker than casters that they don't totally overshadow the rest of the game, and martial adepts shore up the versatility issues that plauged melee types from day 1. You may want to include NPC-available divine magic; I've done this in a setting I'm working on (NPC oracles (adepts), all killoren (Races of the Wild), who can only cast their spells in particular natural settings, from which they never leave. It gives the PCs some form of really long-range divinations and resurrections.)
kyeudo 07-14-07, 02:08 PM	Use both Tome of Magic and Psionics is my suggestion. Tome of Magic is realy flavorful, but only Shadow Magic has any potential to be as game controlling as Arcane Magic.
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 02:44 AM	Replacing all magic with psionics and introducing the ToB produces one of the best balances incarnations of D&D to date. Psionics are sufficiently weaker than casters that they don't totally overshadow the rest of the game, and martial adepts shore up the versatility issues that plauged melee types from day 1. You may want to include NPC-available divine magic; I've done this in a setting I'm working on (NPC oracles (adepts), all killoren (Races of the Wild), who can only cast their spells in particular natural settings, from which they never leave. It gives the PCs some form of really long-range divinations and resurrections.) Who does healing in the field? Devoted Spirit maneuvers + Empathic Transfer/Vigor/Share Pain with Psicrystal?
red_scare87 07-15-07, 03:41 AM	Who does healing in the field? Ardent with the Life Mantle.
IronMouse 07-15-07, 09:07 AM	So it looks like it could work...nice. About the healing, when I said "limiting" I meant that I kick out the Druid (doesn't really fit, anyway) and replace the Cleric with the Cloistered Cleric variant (then called Priest). Divine magic is available for PCs, but no CoDzilla. Use both Tome of Magic and Psionics is my suggestion. Thanks for the suggestion, but my money is limited, so the question is mostly: XPH or ToM? So far, it looks more like XPH... What kind of classes are the Ardent and Lurk? I would love to have a psionic skillmonkey, to replace the Bard. And what's up with the Soulknife? I always read that it's underpowered. Is there a "quick fix" for that, like giving it full BAB, or something?
T_Baggins 07-15-07, 12:11 PM	I think arcane magic is more powerful than psionics, because look at the massive amount of spells available. There is no equivalant to meteor swarm. And if there is, let me know. Meta-magic is easier. With psionics you can never have more than one meta-psionic feat applied to a power. The advantage of psionics is the saving throw dc is usually higher.
kyeudo 07-15-07, 12:48 PM	I think arcane magic is more powerful than psionics, because look at the massive amount of spells available. There is no equivalant to meteor swarm. And if there is, let me know. Meta-magic is easier. With psionics you can never have more than one meta-psionic feat applied to a power. The advantage of psionics is the saving throw dc is usually higher. You can get two metapsionic feats on a power. Its called Psicrystal Containment.
Tempest Stormwind 07-15-07, 01:02 PM	Who does healing in the field? Devoted Spirit maneuvers + Empathic Transfer/Vigor/Share Pain with Psicrystal? That stunt, along with society minds (Untapped Potential) and Life mantle ardents. I also keep low-end cure potions available as alchemical healing salves. (I've toyed around with those working like fast healing, but in the end just went with regular recover HP options. I remind people that HP can represent something as mundane as a second wind.) Thanks for the suggestion, but my money is limited, so the question is mostly: XPH or ToM? So far, it looks more like XPH... The XPH is the better book of the two (as all of it is useful instead of just a third of it), but it's also mostly available for free in the SRD. Take your pick. I'd suggest XPH and then ToM. What kind of classes are the Ardent and Lurk? I would love to have a psionic skillmonkey, to replace the Bard. The ardent is like a cleric-of-a-cause, but it's done better mechanically. You choose "mantles" (think domains) for the class and those compose the entirety of their power list. For a class skeleton, it's similar to a cleric (good HD, good armor, medium attack bonus, but limited power selection and poor skills). The lurk is a psionic assassin. It's not a skillmonkey, but you could liken it to an assassin-themed or thug-themed bard (similar to how the psychic warrior is basically a bard with combat skill instead of music and a buff-themed list). If you want a psionic skill monkey, use the psychic rogue (see the FAQ at the top of the forum). A society mind (Untapped Potential) is probably the best single-class psionic replacement for the bard in general. It's a support class through and through and can be likened to a psionic bard or a psionic druid (thematically, not mechanically!). Basically, it connects the different people in the party so they function as parts of a greater whole, operating as a single being, sharing each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses (including healing as a single being). And what's up with the Soulknife? I always read that it's underpowered. Is there a "quick fix" for that, like giving it full BAB, or something? It is underpowered. A free weapon in exchange for weak class levels isn't very good. There's no real "quick fix"; full base attack doesn't do much for it (as most of the soulknife's options are akin to pre-chosen fighter feats, the class basically becomes the CW samurai at that point!). Instead, use the variant soulknife presented in Untapped Potential, which makes it more roguelike, assassinlike, and acrobatic (in addition to prestige classing better!).
Fafnir 07-15-07, 02:20 PM	A society mind (Untapped Potential) is probably the best single-class psionic replacement for the bard in general. It's a support class through and through and can be likened to a psionic bard or a psionic druid (thematically, not mechanically!). Basically, it connects the different people in the party so they function as parts of a greater whole, operating as a single being, sharing each other's strengths and covering for each other's weaknesses (including healing as a single being). I second the awesomeness that is the Society Mind. You can also find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=506284), by the way, though I'm not sure if it is updated to the last version (the one in UTP);or download it for free at the Dreamscarred Press site (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php). There's no real "quick fix"; full base attack doesn't do much for it (as most of the soulknife's options are akin to pre-chosen fighter feats, the class basically becomes the CW samurai at that point!). Instead, use the variant soulknife presented in Untapped Potential, which makes it more roguelike, assassinlike, and acrobatic (in addition to prestige classing better!). If I remember well the fix in UTP is BlaineTog's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984), right? It's pretty good. Of course, I highly recommend UTP anyway. The rest of the content is really great too (especially the Marksman...:love:). Edit: As of now, I'm running a campaign that's near its end, and I was thinking of going psi-only in the next one. I'm considering ToB, including the Sublime Ranger and Marshal, and the Binder. However, I'm still uncertain about negating completely divine magic, and the NPC adepts idea is good, but... I was wondering, what if I includedthe Favored Soul too? What do you think?
Tempest Stormwind 07-15-07, 02:24 PM	I second the awesomeness that is the Society Mind. You can also find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=506284), by the way, though I'm not sure if it is updated to the last version (the one in UTP);or download it for free at the Dreamscarred Press site (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php). There's been a few serious changes to the powers in particular at that first link. The one on Dreamscarred is the most up-to-date one. I do use one houserule, and really, it was there from the beginning -- society minds can cooperatively heal with fast healing without a feat. The Lend Health feat was added in to appease DMs who thought that out-of-combat healing (difficult to get out-of-combat healing at that) was too powerful. If I remember well the fix in UTP is BlaineTog's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=310984), right? It's pretty good.Yes and no. There were a few revisions and streamlining elements there (mostly to clean up a few things and dovetail with the rest of the book), but it fundamentally is the BlaineTog fix. Of course, I highly recommend UTP anyway. The rest of the content is really great too (especially the Marksman...:love:). Thank you. SPECIFIC feedback on the marksman is hard to come by, actually, although the general feedback is always positive.
Fafnir 07-15-07, 02:32 PM	Thank you. SPECIFIC feedback on the marksman is hard to come by, actually, although the general feedback is always positive. I'm pretty sure I will DM a group with one in it in the next campaign, so I'll let you know. ;)
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 03:38 PM	If you want to use the Lurk as a skill-monkey, you could use the Mind's Eye Expanded Classes article that gives it a rogue-ish variant and a ranger-ish variant. The cloistered cleric doesn't exactly fix the Clericzilla problem because Divine Power still completely replaces your BAB with your level, without restricting your spellcasting. You could fix that by prohibiting (or altering) the feat Divine Metamagic or the feat Persistent Spell (or just prohibiting the combination of the two).
DarkTouch 07-15-07, 08:01 PM	Or.. you know, there are no Dieties that give out the 'Divine Power' spell for some reason.
IronMouse 07-16-07, 03:55 AM	Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell are banned, of course. Thanks for all the input, that certanly helped. I'll get the XPH and look for Untapped Potential later. :)