Psions and Heavy Armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psions and Heavy Armor [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lseelba
06-25-07, 12:43 PM So I'm making a Kineticist for Undermountain and I have a question on armor. If there is nothing similar to spell failure with Psions, what is the drawback to wearing the heaviest armor in the game? If I'm going to use energy missile as my primary attack, I'm not making any attack rolls so armor check penalty isn't that bad. My skill checks are going to be really bad, but only for STR and DEX based ones. I don't think armor check penalties effect the reflex saves so no worries there. I can deal with the 20' movement.

So why not wear full plate and a tower shield as a Psion if I'm not making attack rolls? I figure my Dex would be at least 12 (probably buy it to 13 and decrease it by 1 for being middle aged, boosting my INT by 1). That would give me an AC of 23 unbuffed. Not bad for a level 3 caster...
Knight0
06-25-07, 12:55 PM Because Inertial Armour has no armour check penalty no max dex no movement penalty and is a force effect. If you want special armour abilities buy bracers of armour and enchant them.
TikiMan
06-25-07, 12:57 PM If you're not making attack rolls, and you're not worried about the skill penalties, then the only reason to worry about heavy armor is if your character doesn't have enough Strength to carry the load (13+ for the armor, 18+ for armor and shield). Also, a Ray of Enfeeblment could pretty much paralyze you as well (by making your Str low enough that you can't carry your own armor/shield).

But really, a Mithral Chain Shirt costs 1250, while a suit of Fullplate costs 1500. You get +4 to AC with the fullplate, but you lose 10' of movement, Dex bonus to AC past +1 (if you had put that 18 in Dex instead of Str you'd have almost the same AC, plus initiative, plus skills), and you can't sleep in the heavy armor.

It certainly is a nifty trick, but I don't think +4 to AC is really going to break anything, especially with all the little drawbacks and quirks attached. Actually, it's mostly the surprise value of a caster in heavy armor that you benefit from.
AntiDjinn
06-25-07, 01:20 PM Undermountain is an old school dungeon with an absurd number of traps and hazards. You may wind up climbing or jumping even if you never intended to. If you happen to fall into water (or acid) then you are probably going to die unless other party members can rescue you. You will also be carrying a sign that says "Trip attack me" but you can actually manifest fine from prone, so don't bother trying to get up until the fight is over.
Tyroki
06-25-07, 01:35 PM Aren't there minuses from manifesting prone? Or just being prone in general?
lseelba
06-25-07, 01:40 PM A few things:

1) Float will protect me from drowning. I'm not worried about that one. If I fall in a pool of acid, well that would really be bad :)

2) Inertial armor is +4 (+5 augmented at level 3) and costs power points. I can do better with mundane armor. If I run into an incorporeal beastie I can cast inertial armor then.

3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback.

4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield...
InkBlot
06-25-07, 01:56 PM Aren't there minuses from manifesting prone? Or just being prone in general?
There is no penalty to manifesting (or casting) while prone. In fact, going prone is a rather good tactic for any character who attacks from a distance.

I'm sure you've seen pictures of army guys crawling on their bellies through mud their rifles, and pictures of snipers on their knees or belies with their sniper rifle on a little tripod. They do that for a reason.

Being prone gives you a +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks. It also gives you a -4 penalty to AC versus melee attacks, and a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls. You can shoot a crossbow or throw daggers while prone, but the ground gets in the way if you try to use a bow.
AntiDjinn
06-25-07, 02:20 PM Float is a power; it takes a power known slot. If you are going to spend a power slot on being able to counter the potential penalties of wearing heavy armor, then you aren't really saving anything. You would be tossing away a slot on a power you almost never use, instead of spending the slot on Inertial Armor or Call Armor and just spending points to use the power.

I suppose you could get Float in a tattoo. That way it only costs you gold for the one time you might need it. This power is not recommended for a stick or stone; after you have fallen into water and are prone on the bottom of a lake would be a bad time to start rummaging through your backpack.

A better bet for dealing with armor penalties would be to get a Ring of Arming (MIC p. 122) eventually (market price is 2,500 gold, bit much for low level characters). Then you can simply send your suit of plate to the extradimensional space when you need to swim, jump, climb, or any other time when it would not be convenient. You can have the armor on again with a single standard action.
Knight0
06-25-07, 02:32 PM wait your going into undermountain at level 3?
lseelba
06-25-07, 03:12 PM wait your going into undermountain at level 3?

Isn't everyone? It's the RPGA adaptation.

Tattoo of float is very smart. I don't really need to swim for more than a minute anyway.
TikiMan
06-25-07, 04:14 PM 3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback.
Ah, you are correct. My bad. It's been forever since I've actually read the encumbrance rules. I guess there are even fewer penalties then I thought there were.

4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield...
If speed really is the biggest problem then going Banded Mail won't help any (it's still heavy armor). However, Chain Shirt + Heavy Wooden shield is +6 AC while still giving you 30' of movement (so long as your Str is 11+). Mithral Chain Shirt eliminates all the penalties and allows your Str to go back to 10. Or you could just get the Chain Shirt and use Force Screen for a +8 to AC.
AntiDjinn
06-25-07, 06:35 PM A tattoo of Float costs a mere 50 gp (adjusted for your game's economy, and you might want to pay to have it scribed by someone of level 10+). Just remember to stick it somewhere not covered by your armor since you have to be able to touch it to activate it. If your game features manifesters and item crafters who work on commission, then start making a list of your sticks 'n' stones powers. These are powers you don't want to take up a slot in your head, but that are useful enough to want them in a stick (dorje) or stone (power stone).
axenome
06-26-07, 01:58 PM A few things:

1) Float will protect me from drowning. I'm not worried about that one. If I fall in a pool of acid, well that would really be bad :)

2) Inertial armor is +4 (+5 augmented at level 3) and costs power points. I can do better with mundane armor. If I run into an incorporeal beastie I can cast inertial armor then.

3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback.

4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield...

Inertial armor is the most wildly abusable power in the psion arsenal. As you gain levels it just gets better- from first level it provides as much protection as a chain shirt with no check penalties at all and no weight. The only reason I suggest a lower level character get some armor is because of how limited your pp are at lower levels. At higher levels one manifestation of Inertial Armor will last you all day- and it is NOT just limited to 5 armor bonus. Which is as good as you get from chain mail, I might add. Especially if you get Overchannel/Talented. At level 9, with overchannel, you can augment Inertial Armor to CL 11 and 11pp. This will provide you 11 hours of protection with +9 armor- the equivalent of +1 Platemail- for a cost of 11pp and your psionic focus- regaining which takes your character 1 full round action. By level 19 WITHOUT overchannel it is providing you with +13 to armor for 19 hours. At level 20 with full overchannel and talented, you can expend your psionic focus and 23 pp to gain +15 to armor- the protective equivalent of +7 platemail, that also is a force effect so it protects against Incorporeal touch attacks. And your effective strength isn't an issue until it is reduced to 0.

Inertial armor is just too good. As a DM I retained the feat from original Psionics Handbook and disallowed the power, because as a power it's broken.
TikiMan
06-26-07, 03:22 PM Most people I know actually use both a Chain Shirt and Inertial armor if they're going for AC bonus. The Chain Shirt caps out at +5 armor (good for the low levels, and nice when you get hit with dispell/are resting/etc). After that, you start putting non-AC bonuses on it like Fortification, Shadowed/Silent Moves, Spell Resistance, and with the Magic Item Compendium your options expand to include Blurring, Displacing, and a slew of others.
Fafnir
06-26-07, 05:19 PM Inertial armor is the most wildly abusable power in the psion arsenal. As you gain levels it just gets better- from first level it provides as much protection as a chain shirt with no check penalties at all and no weight. The only reason I suggest a lower level character get some armor is because of how limited your pp are at lower levels. At higher levels one manifestation of Inertial Armor will last you all day- and it is NOT just limited to 5 armor bonus. Which is as good as you get from chain mail, I might add. Especially if you get Overchannel/Talented. At level 9, with overchannel, you can augment Inertial Armor to CL 11 and 11pp. This will provide you 11 hours of protection with +9 armor- the equivalent of +1 Platemail- for a cost of 11pp and your psionic focus- regaining which takes your character 1 full round action. By level 19 WITHOUT overchannel it is providing you with +13 to armor for 19 hours. At level 20 with full overchannel and talented, you can expend your psionic focus and 23 pp to gain +15 to armor- the protective equivalent of +7 platemail, that also is a force effect so it protects against Incorporeal touch attacks. And your effective strength isn't an issue until it is reduced to 0.

Inertial armor is just too good. As a DM I retained the feat from original Psionics Handbook and disallowed the power, because as a power it's broken.

A +2 Full Plate and +3 Large Shield cost around 15000 gp. Any mid level fighter can afford them, incorporeal touch attacks are not that common, and a psion shouldn't be in touch range anyway. Sorry, but that's not overpowered at all.

Ah, and the Inertial Armor feat sucks horribly. This coming from someone who played a 3.0 psion for nearly a year. :nonono:
axenome
06-27-07, 02:42 AM Inertial armor feat is the equivalent of a mithril chain shirt that cannot be dispelled, never needs to be removed, and is always there for protection so long as you have at least 1 pp available.
And one of the things about incorporeals is that they can move through solid objects, hide in walls- any incorp undead with even a LITTLE int should be making popout attacks from the walls on the flimsiest looking characters- namely, start with anything that looks like it might start spewing magic missiles.
Sure the feat isn't as shiny as the power, but deal with it- 4 points of force effect is STILL good defense. Just not unbeatable, is all. And I feature a lot of incorporeals in my campaigns, as soon as shadows become available.
bobothechimp
06-27-07, 03:11 AM You could play as a warforged and take the Adamantine Body feat. Warforged are automatically proficienty with armor from body feats, so you don't suffer any extra penalties.
Slagger the Chuul
06-27-07, 03:48 AM If you are going as a psion in full plate, it wouldn't hurt to go dwarf (ideally a deep dwarf). Since the plate slows you down anyway, that's not really a drawback, and the dwarven bonuses against poison, spells, and spell-like effects would be a big help in a place with a lot of traps.
lseelba
06-27-07, 03:01 PM You could play as a warforged and take the Adamantine Body feat. Warforged are automatically proficienty with armor from body feats, so you don't suffer any extra penalties.

Eberron books are not allowed in the RPGA Undermountain adventure. I think I'm going to go Elan for the pp and the nifty save thing.
bobothechimp
06-27-07, 03:24 PM Well, there ARE Warforged and the adamantine body feat in MM3, which isn't Eberron.
PhaedrusXY
06-27-07, 03:34 PM Ectoplasmic Skin of Armor has the same AC as full plate, but not as many drawbacks. It is from CPsi, and also in the Magic Item Compendium (I think). It is pretty cheap, but perhaps not affordable at level 3. A darkwood heavy shield has no ACP, and is very cheap.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lseelba 06-25-07, 12:43 PM	So I'm making a Kineticist for Undermountain and I have a question on armor. If there is nothing similar to spell failure with Psions, what is the drawback to wearing the heaviest armor in the game? If I'm going to use energy missile as my primary attack, I'm not making any attack rolls so armor check penalty isn't that bad. My skill checks are going to be really bad, but only for STR and DEX based ones. I don't think armor check penalties effect the reflex saves so no worries there. I can deal with the 20' movement. So why not wear full plate and a tower shield as a Psion if I'm not making attack rolls? I figure my Dex would be at least 12 (probably buy it to 13 and decrease it by 1 for being middle aged, boosting my INT by 1). That would give me an AC of 23 unbuffed. Not bad for a level 3 caster...
Knight0 06-25-07, 12:55 PM	Because Inertial Armour has no armour check penalty no max dex no movement penalty and is a force effect. If you want special armour abilities buy bracers of armour and enchant them.
TikiMan 06-25-07, 12:57 PM	If you're not making attack rolls, and you're not worried about the skill penalties, then the only reason to worry about heavy armor is if your character doesn't have enough Strength to carry the load (13+ for the armor, 18+ for armor and shield). Also, a Ray of Enfeeblment could pretty much paralyze you as well (by making your Str low enough that you can't carry your own armor/shield). But really, a Mithral Chain Shirt costs 1250, while a suit of Fullplate costs 1500. You get +4 to AC with the fullplate, but you lose 10' of movement, Dex bonus to AC past +1 (if you had put that 18 in Dex instead of Str you'd have almost the same AC, plus initiative, plus skills), and you can't sleep in the heavy armor. It certainly is a nifty trick, but I don't think +4 to AC is really going to break anything, especially with all the little drawbacks and quirks attached. Actually, it's mostly the surprise value of a caster in heavy armor that you benefit from.
AntiDjinn 06-25-07, 01:20 PM	Undermountain is an old school dungeon with an absurd number of traps and hazards. You may wind up climbing or jumping even if you never intended to. If you happen to fall into water (or acid) then you are probably going to die unless other party members can rescue you. You will also be carrying a sign that says "Trip attack me" but you can actually manifest fine from prone, so don't bother trying to get up until the fight is over.
Tyroki 06-25-07, 01:35 PM	Aren't there minuses from manifesting prone? Or just being prone in general?
lseelba 06-25-07, 01:40 PM	A few things: 1) Float will protect me from drowning. I'm not worried about that one. If I fall in a pool of acid, well that would really be bad :) 2) Inertial armor is +4 (+5 augmented at level 3) and costs power points. I can do better with mundane armor. If I run into an incorporeal beastie I can cast inertial armor then. 3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback. 4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield...
InkBlot 06-25-07, 01:56 PM	Aren't there minuses from manifesting prone? Or just being prone in general? There is no penalty to manifesting (or casting) while prone. In fact, going prone is a rather good tactic for any character who attacks from a distance. I'm sure you've seen pictures of army guys crawling on their bellies through mud their rifles, and pictures of snipers on their knees or belies with their sniper rifle on a little tripod. They do that for a reason. Being prone gives you a +4 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks. It also gives you a -4 penalty to AC versus melee attacks, and a -4 penalty to melee attack rolls. You can shoot a crossbow or throw daggers while prone, but the ground gets in the way if you try to use a bow.
AntiDjinn 06-25-07, 02:20 PM	Float is a power; it takes a power known slot. If you are going to spend a power slot on being able to counter the potential penalties of wearing heavy armor, then you aren't really saving anything. You would be tossing away a slot on a power you almost never use, instead of spending the slot on Inertial Armor or Call Armor and just spending points to use the power. I suppose you could get Float in a tattoo. That way it only costs you gold for the one time you might need it. This power is not recommended for a stick or stone; after you have fallen into water and are prone on the bottom of a lake would be a bad time to start rummaging through your backpack. A better bet for dealing with armor penalties would be to get a Ring of Arming (MIC p. 122) eventually (market price is 2,500 gold, bit much for low level characters). Then you can simply send your suit of plate to the extradimensional space when you need to swim, jump, climb, or any other time when it would not be convenient. You can have the armor on again with a single standard action.
Knight0 06-25-07, 02:32 PM	wait your going into undermountain at level 3?
lseelba 06-25-07, 03:12 PM	wait your going into undermountain at level 3? Isn't everyone? It's the RPGA adaptation. Tattoo of float is very smart. I don't really need to swim for more than a minute anyway.
TikiMan 06-25-07, 04:14 PM	3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback. Ah, you are correct. My bad. It's been forever since I've actually read the encumbrance rules. I guess there are even fewer penalties then I thought there were. 4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield... If speed really is the biggest problem then going Banded Mail won't help any (it's still heavy armor). However, Chain Shirt + Heavy Wooden shield is +6 AC while still giving you 30' of movement (so long as your Str is 11+). Mithral Chain Shirt eliminates all the penalties and allows your Str to go back to 10. Or you could just get the Chain Shirt and use Force Screen for a +8 to AC.
AntiDjinn 06-25-07, 06:35 PM	A tattoo of Float costs a mere 50 gp (adjusted for your game's economy, and you might want to pay to have it scribed by someone of level 10+). Just remember to stick it somewhere not covered by your armor since you have to be able to touch it to activate it. If your game features manifesters and item crafters who work on commission, then start making a list of your sticks 'n' stones powers. These are powers you don't want to take up a slot in your head, but that are useful enough to want them in a stick (dorje) or stone (power stone).
axenome 06-26-07, 01:58 PM	A few things: 1) Float will protect me from drowning. I'm not worried about that one. If I fall in a pool of acid, well that would really be bad :) 2) Inertial armor is +4 (+5 augmented at level 3) and costs power points. I can do better with mundane armor. If I run into an incorporeal beastie I can cast inertial armor then. 3) A full plate and tower shield weighs 95 pounds. You only need 10 strength to carry that, not 18. The weight is a definite drawback. 4) Speed of 20' is the number one drawback in my opinion. I'm definitely going for an armored psion, but I may not do tower shield and full plate. Maybe I'll go with banded mail and hide shield... Inertial armor is the most wildly abusable power in the psion arsenal. As you gain levels it just gets better- from first level it provides as much protection as a chain shirt with no check penalties at all and no weight. The only reason I suggest a lower level character get some armor is because of how limited your pp are at lower levels. At higher levels one manifestation of Inertial Armor will last you all day- and it is NOT just limited to 5 armor bonus. Which is as good as you get from chain mail, I might add. Especially if you get Overchannel/Talented. At level 9, with overchannel, you can augment Inertial Armor to CL 11 and 11pp. This will provide you 11 hours of protection with +9 armor- the equivalent of +1 Platemail- for a cost of 11pp and your psionic focus- regaining which takes your character 1 full round action. By level 19 WITHOUT overchannel it is providing you with +13 to armor for 19 hours. At level 20 with full overchannel and talented, you can expend your psionic focus and 23 pp to gain +15 to armor- the protective equivalent of +7 platemail, that also is a force effect so it protects against Incorporeal touch attacks. And your effective strength isn't an issue until it is reduced to 0. Inertial armor is just too good. As a DM I retained the feat from original Psionics Handbook and disallowed the power, because as a power it's broken.
TikiMan 06-26-07, 03:22 PM	Most people I know actually use both a Chain Shirt and Inertial armor if they're going for AC bonus. The Chain Shirt caps out at +5 armor (good for the low levels, and nice when you get hit with dispell/are resting/etc). After that, you start putting non-AC bonuses on it like Fortification, Shadowed/Silent Moves, Spell Resistance, and with the Magic Item Compendium your options expand to include Blurring, Displacing, and a slew of others.
Fafnir 06-26-07, 05:19 PM	Inertial armor is the most wildly abusable power in the psion arsenal. As you gain levels it just gets better- from first level it provides as much protection as a chain shirt with no check penalties at all and no weight. The only reason I suggest a lower level character get some armor is because of how limited your pp are at lower levels. At higher levels one manifestation of Inertial Armor will last you all day- and it is NOT just limited to 5 armor bonus. Which is as good as you get from chain mail, I might add. Especially if you get Overchannel/Talented. At level 9, with overchannel, you can augment Inertial Armor to CL 11 and 11pp. This will provide you 11 hours of protection with +9 armor- the equivalent of +1 Platemail- for a cost of 11pp and your psionic focus- regaining which takes your character 1 full round action. By level 19 WITHOUT overchannel it is providing you with +13 to armor for 19 hours. At level 20 with full overchannel and talented, you can expend your psionic focus and 23 pp to gain +15 to armor- the protective equivalent of +7 platemail, that also is a force effect so it protects against Incorporeal touch attacks. And your effective strength isn't an issue until it is reduced to 0. Inertial armor is just too good. As a DM I retained the feat from original Psionics Handbook and disallowed the power, because as a power it's broken. A +2 Full Plate and +3 Large Shield cost around 15000 gp. Any mid level fighter can afford them, incorporeal touch attacks are not that common, and a psion shouldn't be in touch range anyway. Sorry, but that's not overpowered at all. Ah, and the Inertial Armor feat sucks horribly. This coming from someone who played a 3.0 psion for nearly a year. :nonono:
axenome 06-27-07, 02:42 AM	Inertial armor feat is the equivalent of a mithril chain shirt that cannot be dispelled, never needs to be removed, and is always there for protection so long as you have at least 1 pp available. And one of the things about incorporeals is that they can move through solid objects, hide in walls- any incorp undead with even a LITTLE int should be making popout attacks from the walls on the flimsiest looking characters- namely, start with anything that looks like it might start spewing magic missiles. Sure the feat isn't as shiny as the power, but deal with it- 4 points of force effect is STILL good defense. Just not unbeatable, is all. And I feature a lot of incorporeals in my campaigns, as soon as shadows become available.
bobothechimp 06-27-07, 03:11 AM	You could play as a warforged and take the Adamantine Body feat. Warforged are automatically proficienty with armor from body feats, so you don't suffer any extra penalties.
Slagger the Chuul 06-27-07, 03:48 AM	If you are going as a psion in full plate, it wouldn't hurt to go dwarf (ideally a deep dwarf). Since the plate slows you down anyway, that's not really a drawback, and the dwarven bonuses against poison, spells, and spell-like effects would be a big help in a place with a lot of traps.
lseelba 06-27-07, 03:01 PM	You could play as a warforged and take the Adamantine Body feat. Warforged are automatically proficienty with armor from body feats, so you don't suffer any extra penalties. Eberron books are not allowed in the RPGA Undermountain adventure. I think I'm going to go Elan for the pp and the nifty save thing.
bobothechimp 06-27-07, 03:24 PM	Well, there ARE Warforged and the adamantine body feat in MM3, which isn't Eberron.
PhaedrusXY 06-27-07, 03:34 PM	Ectoplasmic Skin of Armor has the same AC as full plate, but not as many drawbacks. It is from CPsi, and also in the Magic Item Compendium (I think). It is pretty cheap, but perhaps not affordable at level 3. A darkwood heavy shield has no ACP, and is very cheap.