Psions and Metapsychic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psions and Metapsychic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Birkan
09-25-07, 12:43 AM I've been playing a Psion (for 2 sessions now) and had come to the conclusion they were stupidly powerful and I was doing something wrong. I was whipping out crap loads of damage with mind thrust even at level 2. So I started researching through the book and found I was apparently doing everything right, then I read up here and find that I was doing it wrong.

I wasn't following the, you can only use your manifester level in power points rule. So I figure, thats understandable. Mind thrust doing 2d10 at level 2 seems perfectly fine. However cut I just hit level 3 and was going to get the maximize power feat, however I noticed that it takes 4 points more to use it... What?

So That means I can't even use it until level 5 and even then if I'm to maximize a mind thrust it would only do 10 points of damage. So am I doing this wrong? Surely the rule is that you can only AUGMENT up to your level. At level 4 (using 8 PP) I should be able to do 1d10x4 Maximized or something? That still seems pretty overpowered, considering a 4th level wizard can only do 4d6+1 with a scorching ray (and thats not maximized) But you also have to take into account that they lack the huge spell lists wizards get and can choose from as well.
Tempest Stormwind
09-25-07, 01:08 AM I've been playing a Psion (for 2 sessions now) and had come to the conclusion they were stupidly powerful and I was doing something wrong. I was whipping out crap loads of damage with mind thrust even at level 2. So I started researching through the book and found I was apparently doing everything right, then I read up here and find that I was doing it wrong.

I wasn't following the, you can only use your manifester level in power points rule. So I figure, thats understandable. Mind thrust doing 2d10 at level 2 seems perfectly fine. However cut I just hit level 3 and was going to get the maximize power feat, however I noticed that it takes 4 points more to use it... What?

So That means I can't even use it until level 5 and even then if I'm to maximize a mind thrust it would only do 10 points of damage. So am I doing this wrong? Surely the rule is that you can only AUGMENT up to your level. At level 4 (using 8 PP) I should be able to do 1d10x4 Maximized or something? That still seems pretty overpowered, considering a 4th level wizard can only do 4d6+1 with a scorching ray (and thats not maximized) But you also have to take into account that they lack the huge spell lists wizards get and can choose from as well.

See the FAQ at the top of the forum.

The rule is that you cannot spend more power points than your manifester level. Spend. Not augment.

A Maximized 1d10 Mind Thrust costs 1pp (mind thrust) +4pp (Maximize) = 5pp. Thus, ML 5. Also, since Maximize Power requires you to expend your psionic focus, you have to refocus (a full round action and a DC 20 Concentration check) before you can do it again.

5pp for 10 damage is low, but then again, Maximize scales better at later levels (observe level 15: 15d6 Mind Thrust: 15pp for 82.5 damage. 11d10 Maximized Mind Thrust: 15pp for 110 damage).
AAB
09-25-07, 01:39 AM Yeah. Metapsionic feats are just really bad at low levels. Kinda like metamagic feats.
InkBlot
09-25-07, 08:35 AM Metamagic feats aren't nearly this bad.

Maximize doesn't start to pay off until after 12th level. 56 damage as compared to 12d6 + 12 (average 54), with a fire energy x power. Even then, you'll find that there are better ways to increase your damage output.

Empower Power is much more effective at boosting damage than Maximize, due to the cheaper metapsi cost. At 12th level an empowered fire energy x deals an average of 62.5 damage.

At lower levels Overchannel (with Talented to avoid taking damage) is more useful than any metapsionic feat. Even if you don't spend any more power points, it simultaneously increases the duration and range of your power.

Extend Power is another one to look at, as it can help you conserve your precious power points, but even Extend Power doesn't come into it's own until you 5th level when using extend would be cheaper than re-manifesting a 2nd level (or 3pp) buff.
TheKeyofE
09-25-07, 08:37 AM Empower Power is nice. It starts becoming useful about level 6-8, and isn't surpassed by Maximize Power until very late levels.
AntiDjinn
09-25-07, 11:16 AM You should also note that by the levels where it would be efficient to Empower or Maximize Mind Thrust, you will have already stopped using it. It is all or nothing vs. the target's Will save. If you are considering spending 11 to 15 points on a power, the target is not immune to mind-affecting, and you are confident you can beat its Will save, then you can kill it outright with Death Urge or Crisis of Life or own it with Domination. Under the circumstance under which Mind Thrust can do any damage at all, there will be other powers that deliver better results for the same points.

Even if outright killing or incapacitation isn't the outcome, there will generally be better choices than Mind Thrust. Say, your party is up against a very tough foe with massive damage output; something that presents a real threat of killing one or more PC's. 13 points spent on Maximized Mind Thrust yields 90 points of damage, probably just enough to tick it off, almost certainly not enough to take a boss down, and it really doesn't end the fight. The same 13 points spent on Mindwipe can drop 4 negative levels on the target; this greatly increases your party's chance of winning and decreases the amount of damage they will take in return.
Enchanter_Tom
09-26-07, 04:03 PM hay guyz guess wut

u cant use maxmze spell until level lvl 7 as wizzard

whoa psionics sux hardcore
Lycanthromancer
09-26-07, 06:46 PM *Stabs*

*With a glacier*
hovnarr
09-26-07, 07:40 PM hay guyz guess wut

u cant use maxmze spell until level lvl 7 as wizzard

whoa psionics sux hardcore

Argh, my eyes, my eyes!

You should also note that by the levels where it would be efficient to Empower or Maximize Mind Thrust, you will have already stopped using it. It is all or nothing vs. the target's Will save. If you are considering spending 11 to 15 points on a power, the target is not immune to mind-affecting, and you are confident you can beat its Will save, then you can kill it outright with Death Urge or Crisis of Life or own it with Domination. Under the circumstance under which Mind Thrust can do any damage at all, there will be other powers that deliver better results for the same points.

Even if outright killing or incapacitation isn't the outcome, there will generally be better choices than Mind Thrust. Say, your party is up against a very tough foe with massive damage output; something that presents a real threat of killing one or more PC's. 13 points spent on Maximized Mind Thrust yields 90 points of damage, probably just enough to tick it off, almost certainly not enough to take a boss down, and it really doesn't end the fight. The same 13 points spent on Mindwipe can drop 4 negative levels on the target; this greatly increases your party's chance of winning and decreases the amount of damage they will take in return.

QFT. Before considering damaging powers at higher levels in general, consider:

*Psionic Dominate: Mass convert enemies to allies rather than killing them if they fail a Will save.
*Mass ecto coccooon: If they can't use portation as a purely mental action, all foes in the large area are helpless and wrapped for delivery, SR doesn't apply and the only need to fail a Ref save.
*Fort save powers: Is it has good Ref/Will save consider Decerbrate, Crystallize, Fuse Flesh or any of the dozen other fort save-or-suffer effects.
*Ego Whip: If it has lots of hp and high saves, use this to deal boat loads of cha damage whether it saves or not. Works well with metapsionics too.

Even if you WOULD want to use your actions do deal hp damage, spending power points isn't always the best way to do it:
*Metamorphic Transfer: pyro/cryohydra jet for 36d6 damage as a (Su) effect (no SR/PR)
*Energy Conversion: almost limitless energy rays that can be Split for only 2 pp to dish out 6 dmg/ML/round for very little pp investment

So basically, the only time you'd want to use a damaging power would be against a target immune to all of the above. A target with anti-magic field comes to mind. Or perhaps a target with very high saves, [mind-affecting] immunity and elemental resistances/immunities. And at that point, there are only very few powers of interest, namely:
*Crystal Shard/Swarm of Crystal/Hail of Crystals
*Tornado Blast

So when considering metapsionic feats, you should really consider which of these powers you will be using and which metapsionics will be best. That's the reason Maximize Power doesn't see much play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Birkan 09-25-07, 12:43 AM	I've been playing a Psion (for 2 sessions now) and had come to the conclusion they were stupidly powerful and I was doing something wrong. I was whipping out crap loads of damage with mind thrust even at level 2. So I started researching through the book and found I was apparently doing everything right, then I read up here and find that I was doing it wrong. I wasn't following the, you can only use your manifester level in power points rule. So I figure, thats understandable. Mind thrust doing 2d10 at level 2 seems perfectly fine. However cut I just hit level 3 and was going to get the maximize power feat, however I noticed that it takes 4 points more to use it... What? So That means I can't even use it until level 5 and even then if I'm to maximize a mind thrust it would only do 10 points of damage. So am I doing this wrong? Surely the rule is that you can only AUGMENT up to your level. At level 4 (using 8 PP) I should be able to do 1d10x4 Maximized or something? That still seems pretty overpowered, considering a 4th level wizard can only do 4d6+1 with a scorching ray (and thats not maximized) But you also have to take into account that they lack the huge spell lists wizards get and can choose from as well.
Tempest Stormwind 09-25-07, 01:08 AM	I've been playing a Psion (for 2 sessions now) and had come to the conclusion they were stupidly powerful and I was doing something wrong. I was whipping out crap loads of damage with mind thrust even at level 2. So I started researching through the book and found I was apparently doing everything right, then I read up here and find that I was doing it wrong. I wasn't following the, you can only use your manifester level in power points rule. So I figure, thats understandable. Mind thrust doing 2d10 at level 2 seems perfectly fine. However cut I just hit level 3 and was going to get the maximize power feat, however I noticed that it takes 4 points more to use it... What? So That means I can't even use it until level 5 and even then if I'm to maximize a mind thrust it would only do 10 points of damage. So am I doing this wrong? Surely the rule is that you can only AUGMENT up to your level. At level 4 (using 8 PP) I should be able to do 1d10x4 Maximized or something? That still seems pretty overpowered, considering a 4th level wizard can only do 4d6+1 with a scorching ray (and thats not maximized) But you also have to take into account that they lack the huge spell lists wizards get and can choose from as well. See the FAQ at the top of the forum. The rule is that you cannot spend more power points than your manifester level. Spend. Not augment. A Maximized 1d10 Mind Thrust costs 1pp (mind thrust) +4pp (Maximize) = 5pp. Thus, ML 5. Also, since Maximize Power requires you to expend your psionic focus, you have to refocus (a full round action and a DC 20 Concentration check) before you can do it again. 5pp for 10 damage is low, but then again, Maximize scales better at later levels (observe level 15: 15d6 Mind Thrust: 15pp for 82.5 damage. 11d10 Maximized Mind Thrust: 15pp for 110 damage).
AAB 09-25-07, 01:39 AM	Yeah. Metapsionic feats are just really bad at low levels. Kinda like metamagic feats.
InkBlot 09-25-07, 08:35 AM	Metamagic feats aren't nearly this bad. Maximize doesn't start to pay off until after 12th level. 56 damage as compared to 12d6 + 12 (average 54), with a fire energy x power. Even then, you'll find that there are better ways to increase your damage output. Empower Power is much more effective at boosting damage than Maximize, due to the cheaper metapsi cost. At 12th level an empowered fire energy x deals an average of 62.5 damage. At lower levels Overchannel (with Talented to avoid taking damage) is more useful than any metapsionic feat. Even if you don't spend any more power points, it simultaneously increases the duration and range of your power. Extend Power is another one to look at, as it can help you conserve your precious power points, but even Extend Power doesn't come into it's own until you 5th level when using extend would be cheaper than re-manifesting a 2nd level (or 3pp) buff.
TheKeyofE 09-25-07, 08:37 AM	Empower Power is nice. It starts becoming useful about level 6-8, and isn't surpassed by Maximize Power until very late levels.
AntiDjinn 09-25-07, 11:16 AM	You should also note that by the levels where it would be efficient to Empower or Maximize Mind Thrust, you will have already stopped using it. It is all or nothing vs. the target's Will save. If you are considering spending 11 to 15 points on a power, the target is not immune to mind-affecting, and you are confident you can beat its Will save, then you can kill it outright with Death Urge or Crisis of Life or own it with Domination. Under the circumstance under which Mind Thrust can do any damage at all, there will be other powers that deliver better results for the same points. Even if outright killing or incapacitation isn't the outcome, there will generally be better choices than Mind Thrust. Say, your party is up against a very tough foe with massive damage output; something that presents a real threat of killing one or more PC's. 13 points spent on Maximized Mind Thrust yields 90 points of damage, probably just enough to tick it off, almost certainly not enough to take a boss down, and it really doesn't end the fight. The same 13 points spent on Mindwipe can drop 4 negative levels on the target; this greatly increases your party's chance of winning and decreases the amount of damage they will take in return.
Enchanter_Tom 09-26-07, 04:03 PM	hay guyz guess wut u cant use maxmze spell until level lvl 7 as wizzard whoa psionics sux hardcore
Lycanthromancer 09-26-07, 06:46 PM	Stabs With a glacier
hovnarr 09-26-07, 07:40 PM	hay guyz guess wut u cant use maxmze spell until level lvl 7 as wizzard whoa psionics sux hardcore Argh, my eyes, my eyes! You should also note that by the levels where it would be efficient to Empower or Maximize Mind Thrust, you will have already stopped using it. It is all or nothing vs. the target's Will save. If you are considering spending 11 to 15 points on a power, the target is not immune to mind-affecting, and you are confident you can beat its Will save, then you can kill it outright with Death Urge or Crisis of Life or own it with Domination. Under the circumstance under which Mind Thrust can do any damage at all, there will be other powers that deliver better results for the same points. Even if outright killing or incapacitation isn't the outcome, there will generally be better choices than Mind Thrust. Say, your party is up against a very tough foe with massive damage output; something that presents a real threat of killing one or more PC's. 13 points spent on Maximized Mind Thrust yields 90 points of damage, probably just enough to tick it off, almost certainly not enough to take a boss down, and it really doesn't end the fight. The same 13 points spent on Mindwipe can drop 4 negative levels on the target; this greatly increases your party's chance of winning and decreases the amount of damage they will take in return. QFT. Before considering damaging powers at higher levels in general, consider: Psionic Dominate: Mass convert enemies to allies rather than killing them if they fail a Will save. Mass ecto coccooon: If they can't use portation as a purely mental action, all foes in the large area are helpless and wrapped for delivery, SR doesn't apply and the only need to fail a Ref save. Fort save powers: Is it has good Ref/Will save consider Decerbrate, Crystallize, Fuse Flesh or any of the dozen other fort save-or-suffer effects. Ego Whip: If it has lots of hp and high saves, use this to deal boat loads of cha damage whether it saves or not. Works well with metapsionics too. Even if you WOULD want to use your actions do deal hp damage, spending power points isn't always the best way to do it: Metamorphic Transfer: pyro/cryohydra jet for 36d6 damage as a (Su) effect (no SR/PR) Energy Conversion: almost limitless energy rays that can be Split for only 2 pp to dish out 6 dmg/ML/round for very little pp investment So basically, the only time you'd want to use a damaging power would be against a target immune to all of the above. A target with anti-magic field comes to mind. Or perhaps a target with very high saves, [mind-affecting] immunity and elemental resistances/immunities. And at that point, there are only very few powers of interest, namely: Crystal Shard/Swarm of Crystal/Hail of Crystals Tornado Blast So when considering metapsionic feats, you should really consider which of these powers you will be using and which metapsionics will be best. That's the reason Maximize Power doesn't see much play.