Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 02:47 PM	I was looking at the Mind's Eye of June 29th (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) and I saw this line, which befuddled me a bit: Among more primitive societies psions are very rare, so those with psionic ability usually become wilders or ardents. I thought that one of the ideas of psionics going back to Dark Sun was that being a wizard required a lot of education, study of arcane writings, expensive material components, etc, but someone smart could use psionics without access to those things, so an smart but illiterate survivalist from Athas could learn psionics, but couldn't learn more formalistic arcane or divine magic very well, so in Dark Sun psionics was common, partly due to the sheer prevelance of wild talents due to accelerated evolution, and partly just because other forms of magic aren't practical, since most people are illiterate and such. What's the deal with this stuff about primitive societies only very rarely having psions, then? If anything, it seems like ardents and psychic warriors are the most out-of-place in primitive societies, since they have proficiency with medium and heavy armors, and heavy armors (even splint mail) are less likely to exist in primitive societies. Wilders, I'll admit, fit well. Why not psions, though?
Tempest Stormwind 07-18-07, 02:49 PM	I was looking at the Mind's Eye of June 29th (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) and I saw this line, which befuddled me a bit: I thought that one of the ideas of psionics going back to Dark Sun was that being a wizard required a lot of education, study of arcane writings, expensive material components, etc, but someone smart could use psionics without access to those things, so an smart but illiterate survivalist from Athas could learn psionics, but couldn't learn more formalistic arcane or divine magic very well, so in Dark Sun psionics was common, partly due to the sheer prevelance of wild talents due to accelerated evolution, and partly just because other forms of magic aren't practical, since most people are illiterate and such. What's the deal with this stuff about primitive societies only very rarely having psions, then? If anything, it seems like ardents and psychic warriors are the most out-of-place in primitive societies, since they have proficiency with medium and heavy armors, and heavy armors (even splint mail) are less likely to exist in primitive societies. Wilders, I'll admit, fit well. Why not psions, though? Use Psionics != Be A Psion. The intellectual, deliberate, and precise studies of the psions aren't common in primitive societies. The philosophical/spiritual ones of the ardent and the straight-out-of-Dark-Sun wild talents of the wilder are far more common.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 03:00 PM	What gets me, though, is... say you're an illiterate primitive-background D&D character, who happens to be fortunate enough to have 17 int. It seems like your options are kind of limited; you can't be an archivist, wizard, wu jen, or the like, since those all require spellbooks, and you can't read. You probably aren't a psion, according to mind's eye. What, then? You might be a int-based rogue (or wilderness rogue, or scout), although since int-based rogues are usually oriented toward search/disable device, one might claim that knowledge of complex mechanical traps (as opposed to snares and pits) strains credibility. You might be a beguiler, I suppose -- although if you use trapfinding, that can run into the aforementioned issues with the rogue, and the beguiler is at any rate a rather narrowly themed character. There's the UA generic spellcaster -- which casts spells spontaneously sorcerer-style, but can use intelligence as a casting ability score, but the generic classes are fundamentally supposed to replace existing classes, not supplement them. So what classes are really well suited for an intelligent person from a primitive background?
was_fired 07-18-07, 03:04 PM	Easy, barbarian. With luck the intelligent character ends up being smart enough to start working out since brains didn't matter all that much back then.
InkBlot 07-18-07, 03:05 PM	Primitive psions are more common than primitive wizards, but less common than primitive wilders. In the real world, humans are humans no matter how primitive a society they live in. Primitive humans were just as intelligent as modern humans, they just didn't have the benefit of over a millennium of written records. Many societies we think of as having been primitive had surprisingly advanced mathematics, which is something that is often associated with psionics (as if there were some mathematical formula which could unlock supernal brain functions). However, in D&D primitive societies are usually the kind of backwards stereotypes that Doc Savage tangled with in the pulps. edit: It seems like your options are kind of limited; you can't be an archivist, wizard, wu jen, or the like, since those all require spellbooks, and you can't read. You probably aren't a psion, according to mind's eye. What, then? Nobody said you can't be a psion, wizard, wu jen, or archivist. It was merely a suggestion. There are also many suggestions to be found on how to play a primitive wizard or wu jen. In Complete Arcane they make special mention of alternate spellbooks for characters from societies that haven't discovered book binding. A collection of enscribed bones, or other small fetish objects, was one. Of course you can play a psion from a primitive society. You would be an unusual specimen indeed, but player characters are supposed to be spectacular exceptions to the norm.
forsaken1111 07-18-07, 03:09 PM	"Very rare" does not mean impossible. Perhaps you're the oddball of the tribe, living on the outskirts and absorbed in studies of psionics that noone else understands. That said, a Psychic Rogue's manifesting stat is Int so thats a possibility. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b
CrimsonDeath 07-18-07, 03:33 PM	So what classes are really well suited for an intelligent person from a primitive background? Expert. Be the greatest basketweaver within a month's travel (and master a dozen other crafts as well).
SlanderPanic 07-18-07, 03:47 PM	It should be noted that 2nd Edition psionicists were the only psionic class available. While they're roughly analogous to 3.x psions, psionicists at the time occupied a niche more akin to the 3.5 bard: jack-of-all-trades types who could do a little bit of everything but didn't really do any one thing spectacularly well. They also had the worst MAD you've ever seen, needing every ability score to be as high as possible. Now that there are alternatives, it's okay to say that characters from primitive societies are more likely to be wilders and sorcerors than psions and wizards. While some "primitive" tribes and societies might certainly have a tradition of advanced psionics or magic, it makes sense that characters with those gifts are more likely to take a more intuitive path.
myusernameis 07-18-07, 06:27 PM	Aren't Psions by default flavor supposed to be very rare in general?
forsaken1111 07-18-07, 07:16 PM	Aren't Psions by default flavor supposed to be very rare in general? That depends entirely on the setting. For example in Eberron on the continent of sarlona psionics is very common.
myusernameis 07-18-07, 07:22 PM	That depends entirely on the setting. For example in Eberron on the continent of sarlona psionics is very common.Default flavor, as in what's put in the XPH.
forsaken1111 07-18-07, 07:23 PM	Default flavor, as in what's put in the XPH. Then yes, by generic DND 3.5 without considering campaign setting psionics is rare compared to magic.
AntiDjinn 07-18-07, 10:20 PM	No one said you can't be a psion living in a cave and eating grubs, but by and large the rest of your folk won't all be psions. You may the the only psion any one of your tribe has ever met, which is fine; you are a PC. Saying they are rare in a given setting is not the same as saying pick a different class.
JulesCARV 07-18-07, 11:51 PM	I still say a primitive psion who independently masters the mental discipline of psionics is more likely than a primitive ardent who knows how to wear heavy armor even though his folks have nothing heavier or higher-tech than hide armor, although I'll concede that they both might be rare. :P (Especially with the lack of competition in primitive societies attracting smart minds, such as wizardry, archivist magic, and other literacy-and-intelligence-dependent classes, unlike the wisdom or charisma dependent ardent and wilder classes, which, even in primitive societies, must compete for high-wisdom and charisma people with the adept, druid (unless druids must be literate to learn the druidic that they learn in their training), favored soul, sorcerer, etc. Yes, you can technically make a spellbook of knotted ropes or the like, but it's not really a very efficient way of conveying information, and even the Incas used it more as a mnemonic device than a form of written communication per se.)
myusernameis 07-19-07, 12:44 AM	One question: who said all tribal societies are illiterate? They don't read common, but they may have their own writing systems.
myusernameis 07-19-07, 12:50 AM	I still say a primitive psion who independently masters the mental discipline of psionics is more likely than a primitive ardent who knows how to wear heavy armor even though his folks have nothing heavier or higher-tech than hide armor, although I'll concede that they both might be rare. :PI can't argue with that, though I've always been against the prevelance of free armor proficiency in DnD.
Sarlax 07-19-07, 01:03 AM	One question: who said all tribal societies are illiterate? They don't read common, but they may have their own writing systems. Societies only develop writing if they need to keep complex records, which means agriculture and government. If don't grow your food, you don't care so much about tracking time and seasons. If you don't have a government, writing isn't very useful. You don't have remote military outposts to whom you can relay orders, no laws to write down, etc. Without a government, keeping records doesn't serve much of a purpose - you don't write contracts because there's nothing to enforce them. You don't write books because your property can't be protected and there's no currency with which to buy them. Despite the article, I think psions would be reasonably common in primitive societies, precisely because of the previously mentioned independence from material goods. The psion doesn't need much gear to function. All casters, even druids, have it rougher because of the need to gather components. Wizards won't be around because there's no developed writing system. Clerics should be scarce because there's no organized religion (likewise a state invention). Sorcerers would probably be somewhat common (so long as they took Eschew Material Components to eliminate the need for all those weird items they normally need); primitive societies are probably vulnerable to things like demons and dragons mating with leaders to produce empowered offspring. Bards would likewise be common as the keepers of tribal lore. Psions do a lot of good in a primitive society, even without powers. Autohypnosis can kickstart large, non-technological society - writing requires agriculture, but autohypnosis eliminates the need for scribes. A primitive psionic community could transmit information perfectly over great distances, allowing its culture to spread without much change. The different disciplines all have their edges in the primitive world. Seers can see danger in advance, eogists can attune their forms to any environment, kineticists can battle the exotic monsters, shapers can create any tool that would normally takes hours to weeks of work, nomads can lead the tribe to whatever resources might be needed, and telepaths can keep the tribe at peace.
JulesCARV 07-19-07, 02:02 PM	As far as I can tell, "tribe" is a rough synonym of "nationality" or "ethnicity." "Tribal" doesn't really imply anything about literacy, technology levels, or the like. (The Mind's Eye implies that there's a connection in the heading, "Tribal Ardent," although the part I quoted only talks about "primitive societies," which is a somewhat more meaningful/precise term, although still one that doesn't exactly imply illiteracy)
forsaken1111 07-20-07, 01:07 AM	A 'primitive' illiterate psion could be someone born with an eidetic memory. He likely acts as a tribe's storyteller or record keeper, possibly keeping the sacred tales correct against generational drift. Such a person would be perfect at the cerebral study of psionics without needing writing or research materials. All of his studies are of his own first hand or others' second hand experiences. That could even be made into a feat...
InkBlot 07-20-07, 01:51 AM	No need. It's already a skill: Autohypnosis.
forsaken1111 07-20-07, 01:55 AM	No need. It's already a skill: Autohypnosis. Indeed, but that is a skill learned through effort. Some people are simply born with perfect memory. They're hardly the same thing.
InkBlot 07-20-07, 02:03 AM	Then give them Skill Focus (Autohypnosis) or Hidden Talent (eidetic lock).
Archangel62 07-20-07, 02:20 AM	I was looking at the Mind's Eye of June 29th (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) and I saw this line, which befuddled me a bit: I thought that one of the ideas of psionics going back to Dark Sun was that being a wizard required a lot of education, study of arcane writings, expensive material components, etc, but someone smart could use psionics without access to those things, so an smart but illiterate survivalist from Athas could learn psionics, but couldn't learn more formalistic arcane or divine magic very well, so in Dark Sun psionics was common, partly due to the sheer prevelance of wild talents due to accelerated evolution, and partly just because other forms of magic aren't practical, since most people are illiterate and such. What's the deal with this stuff about primitive societies only very rarely having psions, then? If anything, it seems like ardents and psychic warriors are the most out-of-place in primitive societies, since they have proficiency with medium and heavy armors, and heavy armors (even splint mail) are less likely to exist in primitive societies. Wilders, I'll admit, fit well. Why not psions, though? My guess would be that there is primitive and then there is primitive what I mean is this. Let's start from the assumption that psionic abilities are inborn rather than learned for the sake of argument here. I imagine that the wilder is someone who has psionic power and finds that it is controlled based on their emotional surges, these people learn to harness strong emotion, to think of events that trigger great rage or sadness but as a result they can only concentrate on certain things. Perhaps great rage fueling destructive power, happiness healing, fear transportation, etc. Ardents are those who might have the power but compartmentalize it, they are what I would call the next level of advancement in this, these people draw their powers from emulation and visualization. They focus on concepts, creation, protection, destruction, and the like and form their powers based on those ideas, those ideals. The psion is trickier, it is someone who is aware of their powers and who takes time to experiment and test, they focus on one aspect that they seem to have a talent for and test powers, seeing their strengths and weaknesses, learning to push them beyond regular limitations. They are more analytical, more reasoned in their development but it is very labor intensive and time consuming, and unless the tribe or people has a relatively well established settlement with a greater division of labor to allow the person time and leisure to experiment and test their powers and learn to consistently harness them then they simply won't reach that stage of development.
Ganthrinor 07-20-07, 07:35 AM	Most members of a primitive society are probably more worried with day to day survival than honing thier mental prowess. There's always that oddball that breaks all the rules and does whatever he wants though (The PC). As was previously stated in this thread somewhere, just because it says they're rare doesn't mean they don't exsist and you can't play one.
AntiDjinn 07-20-07, 02:46 PM	Being able to sit and meditate or engage in introspection implies some amount of leisure time. It is difficult contemplate the depths of your own psyche while you are hunting mastodon or fleeing from a cave bear. Developing spirituality and other higher aspirations depends on not being in a constant struggle to meet your basic physical needs of safety, sustenance, and survival. The native American tribes who settled down were the first to develop shamanism, totemic and abstract symbolism, and record systems. The Hopi lived in defensible cliff dwellings; when they were holed up for a siege they had plenty of time to contemplate the skies. There were tribes of the pacific northwest who lived mainly on oysters (not exactly fast, dangerous, nor difficult to harvest) so they also developed mystic traditions earlier. Nomadics also developed mysticism, it just took them longer. Are exceptions possible? Sure, just as the mage survives in a party (because the meat shields know his value and defend him) so might a primitive tribe recognize the value of one with psionic potential. Shamans were given downtime and fed and protected by their tribes in exchange for their services to the tribe. If a given tribe realizes the potential value of a Seer, then the character may be excused from having to hunt, fish, and gather, so that he can instead warn them off attack or find food sources. It will probably only be one person in the entire tribe, so it will remain rare. Wilders, on the other hand, don't require downtime for introspection. Their powers work off emotion rather than control. You don't so much harness the power of your mind as unharness or unleash it. A wilder could be just another hunter-gatherer in the tribe who just happens to occasionally manifest amazing abilities. He may be valued, or just as likely feared, depending on who gets blasted when he goes off.
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 04:56 PM	Actually, the average hunter-gatherer had more liesure time than the average member of an industrialized society, and far more liesure time than a member of an agrarian society. It really only takes about twenty hours per week to forage for sufficient amounts of decent food.
InkBlot 07-20-07, 05:15 PM	Regardless of how much time real hunter/gatherer societies spent hunting and gathering, in D&D it works like this: SURVIVAL (WIS) (...) Survival DC Task 10 Get along in the wild. Move up to one-half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10. (...) Action: Varies. A single Survival check may represent activity over the course of hours or a full day. A Survival check made to find tracks is at least a full-round action, and it may take even longer. Also note that you're not comparing hunter/gatherer societies to modern day civilization. You're comparing hunter/gatherer societies to psuedo-medieval aggrarian societies augmented with dependable magic and other supernatural resources.
forsaken1111 07-20-07, 05:51 PM	Actually, the average hunter-gatherer had more liesure time than the average member of an industrialized society, and far more liesure time than a member of an agrarian society. It really only takes about twenty hours per week to forage for sufficient amounts of decent food. Really? It only takes me about an hour every two weeks to forage for sufficient amounts of food at the supermarket, and maybe 4 hours of work in a week to pay for what I spent on the food. You can't compare different cultures like that and say "Well he had more free time". Its like saying "Well industrial societies have better medical care!" its a product of the type of society, not an advantage/disadvantage. And I'm pretty sure I sit on my rump and waste more time than any tribal in a hunter/gatherer society.
AAB 07-20-07, 07:09 PM	early hunter-gatherers (ice-age nomadic peoples) had relatively large amounts of free time. because of the tactics used for hunting (running mastodons off cliffs or cornering them) and the high fat-content of their food they could gather a large supply of highly-nourishing food in a short period of time. farming is, oddly enough, almost a step back in terms of efficiency.
Thakowsaizmu 07-20-07, 07:13 PM	Expert. Be the greatest basketweaver within a month's travel (and master a dozen other crafts as well). Awesome!
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 08:14 PM	Really? It only takes me about an hour every two weeks to forage for sufficient amounts of food at the supermarket, and maybe 4 hours of work in a week to pay for what I spent on the food. You can't compare different cultures like that and say "Well he had more free time". Its like saying "Well industrial societies have better medical care!" its a product of the type of society, not an advantage/disadvantage. And I'm pretty sure I sit on my rump and waste more time than any tribal in a hunter/gatherer society. I was just saying that it's not true that hunter-gatherers didn't have enough time for meditation. early hunter-gatherers (ice-age nomadic peoples) had relatively large amounts of free time. because of the tactics used for hunting (running mastodons off cliffs or cornering them) and the high fat-content of their food they could gather a large supply of highly-nourishing food in a short period of time. farming is, oddly enough, almost a step back in terms of efficiency. The advantage of agriculture is population density. It takes a lot more work to feed someone with a farm, but a lot less land. Agriculture laid the foundation for cities and, therefor, civilization as we know it.
AAB 07-20-07, 09:54 PM	The advantage of agriculture is population density. It takes a lot more work to feed someone with a farm, but a lot less land. Agriculture laid the foundation for cities and, therefor, civilization as we know it. thank you for reminding me. i knew there had to be SOME reason we stopped wandering around :P
forsaken1111 07-20-07, 10:02 PM	thank you for reminding me. i knew there had to be SOME reason we stopped wandering around :P Well there's also the fact that hunter/gatherer tactics could never support the kind of population we have today.
AAB 07-20-07, 10:29 PM	but our population would never have gotten so high were it not for efficient crops like rice. it's a never-ending cycle: we have too many people? we make more food. we have excess food? more people.
Archangel62 07-21-07, 01:26 AM	farming is, oddly enough, almost a step back in terms of efficiency. Except however I highly doubt that the corn or squash is going to go for a stroll, nor do you have to hunt for months to stalk and kill it. Farming is difficult to start but provides more food for less comparative energy than hunting. Once we learned to domesticate animals we truly had a level of advancement that allowed us to grow entirely as a society.
forsaken1111 07-21-07, 02:09 AM	Except however I highly doubt that the corn or squash is going to go for a stroll, nor do you have to hunt for months to stalk and kill it. Farming is difficult to start but provides more food for less comparative energy than hunting. Once we learned to domesticate animals we truly had a level of advancement that allowed us to grow entirely as a society. Just a nitpick but you don't stalk anything for MONTHS to kill it. You'd die of starvation if you were that bad a hunter.
Archangel62 07-21-07, 02:20 AM	Just a nitpick but you don't stalk anything for MONTHS to kill it. You'd die of starvation if you were that bad a hunter. What I mean is following certain animals that migrated, for example that's how some surmise that the first natives came to North America, following animals across a land bridge. What I mean is that the food isn't going to start migrating...though I do have to admit that the idea of wandering yams and eggplants are a visually interesting idea...:plotting:
Archangel62 07-21-07, 02:21 AM	but our population would never have gotten so high were it not for efficient crops like rice. it's a never-ending cycle: we have too many people? we make more food. we have excess food? more people. If anyone has ever played Black&White they know that problem well... After a while I was almost tempted to have my creature go on a rampage.
JulesCARV 07-21-07, 03:01 AM	What I mean is that the food isn't going to start migrating...though I do have to admit that the idea of wandering yams and eggplants are a visually interesting idea...:plotting: Are you an Ursula Vernon fan, by any chance?
myusernameis 07-21-07, 03:26 PM	If anyone has ever played Black&White they know that problem well... After a while I was almost tempted to have my creature go on a rampage.Been there done that, that one god power that starts fires is an excellent method of population control.
CrimsonDeath 07-22-07, 06:54 PM	Except however I highly doubt that the corn or squash is going to go for a stroll, nor do you have to hunt for months to stalk and kill it. Farming is difficult to start but provides more food for less comparative energy than hunting. Once we learned to domesticate animals we truly had a level of advancement that allowed us to grow entirely as a society. That's patently false (except for the fact that plants are relatively sedentary). Agriculture is far more labor-intensive than hunting/gathering. (Even today, in industrialized societies with widespread mechanization, it still takes a lot of work.) Think about how long it takes to kill a deer, and then think about how long it takes to eat a deer. Recall that fruit- and nut-bearing trees grow naturally and require no tending-- all you need to do is spot one and walk up to it at the right time of the year. Fishing can be done extremely efficiently with nets or traps. Many plants-- grasses, leaves, roots, tubers, tree bark, mushrooms, and even flowers-- are nutritious and easily obtained if you know what you're looking for. The advantages of agriculture are that it requires far less space (by several orders of magnitude), and it requires less travel. However, it requires more labor and, since it encourages specialization in a narrow variety of crops, it provides a less balanced diet.
forsaken1111 07-22-07, 09:10 PM	Been there done that, that one god power that starts fires is an excellent method of population control. Whenever they begged me for food because the fields couldn't sustain them I would scoop up 20-30 of em and sacrifice them then burn all the power watering fields and throing grain in the stores. That shut them up for a while.
Sarlax 07-23-07, 12:27 AM	That's patently false (except for the fact that plants are relatively sedentary). Agriculture is far more labor-intensive than hunting/gathering. For a population, agriculture uses less energy. One farmer might be working a lot, but everyone else is taking it easy. Agriculture turns the work of one person into the food for many.
CrimsonDeath 07-23-07, 02:18 AM	For a population, agriculture uses less energy. One farmer might be working a lot, but everyone else is taking it easy. Agriculture turns the work of one person into the food for many. Well, it's not so much that everyone else is taking it easy as it is that people who aren't farmers can spend their time doing other things. I'm pretty sure that agriculture does actually take more work, over all, to feed an equivalent population, but it does encourage increased specialization within a community. It also allows for the accumulation of wealth, since you don't have to be able to carry everything you own wherever you go. (Sorry, I forgot to mention these earlier...)
DrowBattlemind 07-23-07, 01:25 PM	My Psion manifests Energy Burst: Fire, Energy Wave: Ice/Cold, and Energy Current: Electricity/Lightning to KILL the agricultural crops and get this thread back on topic! While a Wilder would be more common than a Psion-class character, what's to say that the local 'shaman' isn't part of a psionic tradition, and picks an apprentice from the tribe's youth to take over for the tribe when he (or she) passes on? The training a shaman/medicine-man/witch-doctor/whatever gives his (or her) apprentice the time needed to master the art of manifesting one's will, freeing the youth from the drudgery of survival, since the whole tribe supports and honors such a position within the village. Thus justifying the existence of a 'primitive' culture Psion.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 01:31 PM	Just a thought but... would you think a society-mind would be more or less common in a primitive close-knit tribal society than a more 'modern' city-centric society?
DrowBattlemind 07-23-07, 01:35 PM	What, like a hive-mind? maybe for Thri-Kreen and Dromites... :thinks:
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 01:38 PM	What, like a hive-mind? maybe for Thri-Kreen and Dromites... :thinks: Society mind is a base class from Untapped Potential which forms a worldthought network linking several people together for communication and cooperation. Its by no means a hive mind. Think of it like several computers networked with the society mind as the router. It would allow a tribal society to communicate and cooperate over larger distances and offer a significant advantage.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 01:50 PM	Just a thought but... would you think a society-mind would be more or less common in a primitive close-knit tribal society than a more 'modern' city-centric society? Society minds (see my sig if you aren't familiar with them; that's not the most recent version but it's pretty close. The powers got the biggest rewrite in UTP) would show up in any culture that is based around connections. Tribal societies would probably see them as storytellers, naturalists, explorers, and interpreters (basically, the heart and soul of the culture). They would also show up as individual wanderers, enterpreneurs, philosophers, and pretty much anywhere else. (They were deliberately written as a common class, as far as PC psionic classes go.) Basically, if the society exists in such a way to allow individuals time to ponder the greater connections between things -- in other words, in any society where not everyone is involved in sustaining the whole -- a society mind can potentially show up. Note that demographically, not many NPCs are above level 3, which is where society minds gain telepathy. Furthermore, at level 3, they can join 3 others into their network, and it extends a mere 30' from the society mind. Even assuming level 5 (probably the upper limit for the NPCs that aren't significant to the plot, and these are the superstars of their town), the network extends a mere 35 feet and can hold 5 other people. Hardly inter-civilization communication, is it? At best, it's early warning, coordinative, or interpretive in its nature at the NPC level; the society minds that are powerful enough to communicate between towns are the same level as wizards who are strong enough to reshape continents.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 01:59 PM	True enough. I wasn't arguing their rarity in general, only curious if a close-knit tribal society would indicate more psionic NPC's awakening as society minds than other types of civilizations. A city, with all its people, is generally a group of individuals. Not many people do things for the city, they do things for themselves. A tribe is a group of people who depend on one another for even basic survival. Unlike in a city, where everyone is responsible for their own survival, no one person in a tribe is independently responsible for every action required for survival. Its really just an off-topic question that popped into my head. It would be interesting to make a race with the society mind as a favored class.
DrowBattlemind 07-23-07, 02:07 PM	Society mind is a base class from Untapped Potential which forms a worldthought network linking several people together for communication and cooperation. Its by no means a hive mind. Think of it like several computers networked with the society mind as the router. It would allow a tribal society to communicate and cooperate over larger distances and offer a significant advantage. Ahh, which explains my ignorance on the subject. Don't have Untapped Potential (or Bruce Cordell's Hyperconcious :weep: ).
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 02:10 PM	Ahh, which explains my ignorance on the subject. Don't have Untapped Potential (or Bruce Cordell's Hyperconcious :weep: ). Its actually a very interesting base class, and you can check it out for free if you like since dreamscarred press offered it as a free download here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21116& You'd have to register with rpgnow I think but the download is free.
Tempest Stormwind 07-23-07, 02:26 PM	Its actually a very interesting base class, and you can check it out for free if you like since dreamscarred press offered it as a free download here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=21116& You'd have to register with rpgnow I think but the download is free. It's also available at the Dreamscarred Press website (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=7&category_id=1&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29), no registration required. The only race with Society Mind as a favored class is a variant dromite in UTP (that's the only mechanical change, although there are some interesting feats there, both for society minds and dromites that really throw on the cooperative nature). Interestingly, a society mind would be a natural tribal chief (or shaman, in tribes based around physical strength) and a natural mayor in cities. (This is actually mentioned in the society mind "in the world" description; the default SMind RP is one focused on connections, consequences, and interrelations. This is a person who would understand multiple viewpoints and what impact each proposed change would mean to the city as a whole.) It does this without actually being based on Charisma, although Cha is a secondary ability score for it.
Lazigothi 07-23-07, 02:36 PM	I think the common perspective of "primitive" originated from moments when one culture destroyed another. "Primitive" became a green light to "civilize" others. "Primitive" cultures came to be distinguished through lack of firepower and unknown customs, which included religion, clothes, food, etc. I think the above posters mentioning the distinction of what made a culture "primitive" versus what the Mind's Eye article intends is a good debate. In our history, cultures dismissed as "primitive" that were conquered and assimilated into other cultures had nonetheless developed sophisticated architecture, cosmologies, oral traditions, etc. that could not be duplicated by those cultures that conquered them. These cultures "primitive" cultures included more than just the Native Amricans, they also would include the Celts and the Druids, the Aztecs and Mayans, the Egyptians, the Zulu, the Tibetans or the Chinese, the Israelites, the Hindi, and countless other cultures by those that saw themselves as "civilized" (equating civilized with superior, and primitive to those that deserved to be assimilated and/or destroyed). I think a more appropriate word might be that some cultures were "different" instead of "primitive." Is Mind's Eye, then, talking about "primitive" cultures, or about primitive cultures? To me the word is offensive however the article intends it. It becomes even more difficult when trying to suppose the idea of a "Psion" and rationalize its existence by comparison with our own history. How can this idea of guessing if Psions might exist in our own past work when Psions don't exist? I think this has been a personal gripe of mine since it's a common excuse for many to ban psionics from their game. I would describe these cultures as simply different and completely dismiss the Mind's Eye article. I would only explain a smaller percentage of Psions in such cultures simply from having a smaller population and what needs the culture has, but not because it's "primitive." Maybe one culture, there's a single figure that has the position of being their culture's sole Psion, taking in a selected pupil that can assume the role should it be vacant from natural death or killed. Perhaps there's an Elder Council of Psions or a kind of "clergy" of Psions that are a part of the culture but assist it from an aloof part of their hierarchy. I would therefore also get rid of their description of them being very rare (I would prefer to think of Psionics for these other cultures as rare only in regards to that these cultures are themselves rare and of a small population with a low chance for random encounters as a whole). I have read their suggestion and will politely ignore it.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 02:47 PM	Well its generally accepted that the development of writing and complex language led to the development of culture civilization. When we say 'primitive' here we're often talking about societies with no concept of written word. Often such a culture was nothing more than a collection of nomads or hunter/gatherers in a loose village or tribe. You may simply call them different, but I call them primitive and I stand by that because I believe our lives have been enriched and made better by the developments of 'modern' culture. Certainly there are aspects of modern life which I do not like, but I doubt I could be happy in an agrarian or hunter/gatherer society. Edit: Changed culture to civilization. My brain transposed the two.
InkBlot 07-23-07, 02:49 PM	Forsaken, I believe you have confused the words "culture" and "civilization." There is nothing about illiteracy which precludes having a sophisticated culture.
forsaken1111 07-23-07, 02:50 PM	Forsaken, I believe you have confused the words "culture" and "civilization." There is nothing about illiteracy which precludes having a sophisticated culture. You're correct, I meant to type civilization there. I will edit that.
DrowBattlemind 07-23-07, 02:51 PM	It's also available at the Dreamscarred Press website (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=7&category_id=1&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29), no registration required. Thanks!
Lycanthromancer 07-25-07, 01:51 AM	<snip>though I do have to admit that the idea of wandering yams and eggplants are a visually interesting idea...:plotting:Just make veggie-shaped astral constructs. *Throws out a pokeball* Rutabega, I choose you!
Archangel62 07-25-07, 02:16 AM	Just make veggie-shaped astral constructs. *Throws out a pokeball* Rutabega, I choose you! Did something similar to that in a game once, imagine the look on a players face when they hear that a giant fanged chocolate cake is kicking the crap out of them.
Lycanthromancer 07-25-07, 02:22 AM	Yeah, I remember you saying something about that. Yes, the astral construct power can result in cavities. ...To your face.
AntiDjinn 07-25-07, 02:55 AM	"Primitive" actually has a definition and it is useful without needing to be politically corrected in the interest of sparing the feelings of the never-departed of imaginary cultures. 1. Early in the history of the world or man. 2. Original 3. Basic. Early proto-hominids, neanderthals, Australopithecus, and folk who lived at their level of self and world comprehension were primitive. Sharks and other cartilaginous fish are primitive. Archaebacteria are primitive. The Amish, Grizzly Adams, and pierced Sk8RBoiz are not. Early flint tools are described as primitive because they are, compared to the bronze and iron tools. This is not to say they were not sharp, or were not a world-shaping accomplishment, but simply that they were a basic form that was to be repeated and refined in later centuries. Calling them primitive does not denigrate them, but simply places them on a developmental timeline. I dread the day when all of this spills over into chemistry and physics, as it already has to anthropology and is making inroads into biology. Soon, we won't even be able to discuss the primordial self-replicating molecules that were the earliest form of life, but will instead be hearing about the different but no less sophisticated, accomplished, or worthy molecules that lead to modern, but not to say better, nucleic acids. Or we could just refer to primitive amines and nucleic acids and realize that the word doesn't need to carry the baggage people load onto it.
CrimsonDeath 07-25-07, 10:13 PM	Did something similar to that in a game once, imagine the look on a players face when they hear that a giant fanged chocolate cake is kicking the crap out of them. Sent them to Soviet Russia, did you?
Archangel62 07-25-07, 11:26 PM	Sent them to Soviet Russia, did you? More accurately Eberron, a small girl who was a wilder was abducted by a gang who was forcing her to use her abilities to help them clear rivals and commit crimes. The astral constructs were her imaginary friends, so the reports that the group got weren't precisely much good for them keeping a straight face either. To say nothing of narrating a battle with a pair of monstrous chocolate cakes.
Sir Elton 07-25-07, 11:57 PM	So what classes are really well suited for an intelligent person from a primitive background? Fast Answer: Depends on the rules your DM/GM uses. For instance, I use Dynamic Spellcasting. Dynamic Spellcasting has a lot more options for characters learning magic. The DM/GM's rules always trumps the rules or official fluff. :D
JulesCARV 07-26-07, 03:34 AM	Fast Answer: Depends on the rules your DM/GM uses. For instance, I use Dynamic Spellcasting. Dynamic Spellcasting has a lot more options for characters learning magic. The DM/GM's rules always trumps the rules or official fluff. :D You can't just leave us hanging there! Do you have a link or explanation for this Dynamic Spellcasting thing?
forsaken1111 07-26-07, 03:48 AM	You can't just leave us hanging there! Do you have a link or explanation for this Dynamic Spellcasting thing? lol, that's exactly what I was thinking.
Sir Elton 07-26-07, 09:05 AM	You can't just leave us hanging there! Do you have a link or explanation for this Dynamic Spellcasting thing? Uhm . . . Dynamic Spellcasting is a 3rd Party Spellcasting System pioneered first by Soveriegn Stone, and then adapted by Guardians of Order for use in the Slayers d20 RPG and in regular fantasy RPGs via Advanced d20 Magic. Its 1,000 x 1,000 times better than the Vancian system that is mostly in use. To put it another way, Spellcasters -- with the quicken spell feat under Advanced d20 Magic -- can dust off Stored Lightning Bolt as fast as a psion can dust off Disintegrate without the quicken power feat. The entire system is OGL. Let me find the Wikipedia entry I did for Advanced d20 Magic and the official Adaption for the Birthright CS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_d20_Magic http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11812.phtml http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Advanced_d20_Magic In fact, I thought of the Metamage PrC (Magic's answer to the Metamind PrC) after perusing Dynamic Spellcasting. A Metamage gives up parts of his Spellcasting Bonus to master the Metamagic feats.