Psions: Taper in power at high levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psions: Taper in power at high levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Friendlyfish
04-18-07, 06:27 PM I've been pretty interested in psionics for awhile; specifically, in comparing their power levels vs. arcanists at various levels. Previously, I've asked what the best save or dies for a psion were for power levels 1 and 2.
Today, I've hit upon another quandary: what happens to the psion at levels 15+?

Traditionally, the "primary offensive casters" at levels 15 plus rely a great deal on the save-or-die line of spells, rather than direct damage. Unfortunately, the majority of save-or-dies for the psion are mind-affecting in scope (and crappy to boot, although that's another discussion); not only does that count out a not-insignificant number of creature types, but when level 15/CR 15 hits, mind blank comes online for non-psionic creatures. That's when save-or-die falls apart for the psion...
and so goes the psion.

Now, one could technically include the wizard in here; the best save or dies are from the enchantment (mind-affecting), necromancy (death), and illusion (mind-affecting/illusion) schools.

Of these, the psion has it best, because the uber-counter to mind-affecting is mind-blank, a level 8 power or spell. Death ward takes out death effects at 4th level, and true seeing, the phantasmal at 5th/6th level.

However, wizards have access to all three sorts of powers, whereas the psion only has access to one. Most DMs aren't going to let NPCs walk around without a mind blank diaper on after 15 levels of the party psion insta-frying their enemies' brains.

Naturally, decerebrate comes to mind as a useful power, perhaps the only-non telepathic save-or-die for the psion; and therefore a must-have...assuming the enemy has a brain (does this even work on undeads,plants,etc.; they aren't assumed to have brains!). Unfortunately, this brain-centric view of decerebrate makes it just as bad as a mind-affecting, with certain exceptions. Also, one can't augment the DC.

Well, to bring this ramble to a close, psions seem to hurt compared to wizards at 15+ in my view, unless the DM has everybody walking around with death ward, true seeing and mind blank on at all times, which in turn would level the playing field. There, the psion would have the edge, with their blasting advantage.
Tempest Stormwind
04-18-07, 06:48 PM Of course, due to wizards' (and clerics', and druids', and pretty much every full caster using PHB spells) exponential increase in power, everything seems weak at high levels by comparison. Psions have fewer ways to rape the game and dominate every encounter at high levels than wizards, but they aren't lacking in ways to contribute. So what if he has to work with his team over multiple rounds, expending 1/5-1/4 of his daily resources on an equal CR fight that a wizard could have dropped in one spell? To me, that makes the game more fun.

I'm of the impression that a game based on psionics and the ToB (using the barbarian, bard, and rogue from the PHB, and possibly a few additional classes here and there from other books, such as the binder) would produce mostly balanced results between most classes at assorted levels.
Diplominator
04-18-07, 07:14 PM I actually like playing Psions more at high levels. Yeah, you lose out a bit compared to magic, but on the other hand that's where a lot of Psionics' unique effects come in, powers like Hypercognition and True Mind Switch. Stuff that magic can never do.
AntiDjinn
04-18-07, 07:27 PM Mind-affecting save or die/consequences effects only hit a wall against things with innate resistance (undead, constructs, oozes, plants, vermin, objects, etc.) the spell/power Mind Blank can be dispelled. It isn't like you wouldn't always dispel or otherwise check your opponents defenses first when using a targeted save or die in any case; by the time you are first coming up against Mind Blank you have already been dealing with Redopsi and Spell Turning for several levels so you have learned to deal or you would not still be alive yourself.

The psion does have one advantage over slotted casters specifically in the levels 18-20 range: He can continue to augment beyond 17 points. Slotted casters do not have access to 10th level slots until caster level 21 and so they can not meta their highest level effects. Power Word: Kill (it has both the Death and Mind-affecting descriptors) cast by a 20th level wizard is still capped at affecting up to 100 hit points (the same cap he had at 17th level) while a 20th level psion manifesting Microcosm can drop a foe with up to 130 hit points.
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-19-07, 10:40 AM Two words: "Massive Damage"
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage

I one-shotted the BBEG in City of the Spider Queen with a tornado blast last night. I didn't even get started with temporal acceleration!

When it comes down to it, level 8 and 9 psion powers are just as awesome as level 8 and 9 spells. If you invest in stat-boosting items, you also can get an ungodly amount of power points (the kineticist that performed the feat mentioned above could manifest 18 powers at full augmentation per day). Also, lower-level save-or-die powers simply augment to have higher DCs, even past 17th level, while wizards are just finding larger-area and higher-DC ways to kill things in the same old way.
carnivore
04-19-07, 01:49 PM even though Psions can continue to Augment thier powers with PP to achieve effective "10th lvl" Spells/powers......Arcane and Divine casters still have a Huge advantage......Metamagic Rods....straight from CORE...a 9th lvl Spell augmented with a Metamagic Rod easily = 10th+ lvl spell:

exa:

Gray Elf Wizard
with 2 Metamagic Rods(Greater Quicken and Greater Maximize)

casting Meteor Swarm 6 times in 3 rounds=

8d6 no save + 24d6(ref 1/2) + 48 no save + 144(ref save =72) x 3= lots of damage........with a lot more AutoScaling Spells to follow

....this is one example of how WoTC OVERPOWERS SPELL CASTERS
another example:

new feats that reduce adjusted spell level of Metamagic Feats...even down to +0 Spell levels

since Psions have such bad Save-or-Die powers to work with.....focus on other aspects of Combat:

Battlefield Manipulation
Direct Damage
Buffing (self and Allies)

on area that Psions have a major boost...Transportation...just learn to use it to your advantage

:D
Kiklio
04-19-07, 10:19 PM The fact that a psion picks up Temporal Acceleration at level 13 is huge compared to the level 17 Time Stop. The psion can budget out any number of TA's, while spellcasters might not prepare multiple TS's. That and the low cost of Delay Power means easy power stacking. Damaging, killing, or debilitating. Schism and Hustle just add more of a precious commodity readily available to psions: actions.

Granted, psions might get Synchronicity at level 1, but how long is that going to last?
Friendlyfish
04-20-07, 10:43 PM Thanks for the replies- I agree, Tempest Stormwind, that it seems like wizards are way more powerful at high levels than psions- so powerful, in fact, that a reasonable DM is going to take all of those spells away. Living Greyhawk is a case in point; all the broken stuff is on the restricted list.

I think in a savvy DM's game, wizards, clerics and druids will get houseruled to approximately a psion's power.

Also it's humorous; this thread has one of the highest view/reply ratios I've seen on these boards. Furtive interest, very furtive. Furtive. I like saying that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Friendlyfish 04-18-07, 06:27 PM	I've been pretty interested in psionics for awhile; specifically, in comparing their power levels vs. arcanists at various levels. Previously, I've asked what the best save or dies for a psion were for power levels 1 and 2. Today, I've hit upon another quandary: what happens to the psion at levels 15+? Traditionally, the "primary offensive casters" at levels 15 plus rely a great deal on the save-or-die line of spells, rather than direct damage. Unfortunately, the majority of save-or-dies for the psion are mind-affecting in scope (and crappy to boot, although that's another discussion); not only does that count out a not-insignificant number of creature types, but when level 15/CR 15 hits, mind blank comes online for non-psionic creatures. That's when save-or-die falls apart for the psion... and so goes the psion. Now, one could technically include the wizard in here; the best save or dies are from the enchantment (mind-affecting), necromancy (death), and illusion (mind-affecting/illusion) schools. Of these, the psion has it best, because the uber-counter to mind-affecting is mind-blank, a level 8 power or spell. Death ward takes out death effects at 4th level, and true seeing, the phantasmal at 5th/6th level. However, wizards have access to all three sorts of powers, whereas the psion only has access to one. Most DMs aren't going to let NPCs walk around without a mind blank diaper on after 15 levels of the party psion insta-frying their enemies' brains. Naturally, decerebrate comes to mind as a useful power, perhaps the only-non telepathic save-or-die for the psion; and therefore a must-have...assuming the enemy has a brain (does this even work on undeads,plants,etc.; they aren't assumed to have brains!). Unfortunately, this brain-centric view of decerebrate makes it just as bad as a mind-affecting, with certain exceptions. Also, one can't augment the DC. Well, to bring this ramble to a close, psions seem to hurt compared to wizards at 15+ in my view, unless the DM has everybody walking around with death ward, true seeing and mind blank on at all times, which in turn would level the playing field. There, the psion would have the edge, with their blasting advantage.
Tempest Stormwind 04-18-07, 06:48 PM	Of course, due to wizards' (and clerics', and druids', and pretty much every full caster using PHB spells) exponential increase in power, everything seems weak at high levels by comparison. Psions have fewer ways to rape the game and dominate every encounter at high levels than wizards, but they aren't lacking in ways to contribute. So what if he has to work with his team over multiple rounds, expending 1/5-1/4 of his daily resources on an equal CR fight that a wizard could have dropped in one spell? To me, that makes the game more fun. I'm of the impression that a game based on psionics and the ToB (using the barbarian, bard, and rogue from the PHB, and possibly a few additional classes here and there from other books, such as the binder) would produce mostly balanced results between most classes at assorted levels.
Diplominator 04-18-07, 07:14 PM	I actually like playing Psions more at high levels. Yeah, you lose out a bit compared to magic, but on the other hand that's where a lot of Psionics' unique effects come in, powers like Hypercognition and True Mind Switch. Stuff that magic can never do.
AntiDjinn 04-18-07, 07:27 PM	Mind-affecting save or die/consequences effects only hit a wall against things with innate resistance (undead, constructs, oozes, plants, vermin, objects, etc.) the spell/power Mind Blank can be dispelled. It isn't like you wouldn't always dispel or otherwise check your opponents defenses first when using a targeted save or die in any case; by the time you are first coming up against Mind Blank you have already been dealing with Redopsi and Spell Turning for several levels so you have learned to deal or you would not still be alive yourself. The psion does have one advantage over slotted casters specifically in the levels 18-20 range: He can continue to augment beyond 17 points. Slotted casters do not have access to 10th level slots until caster level 21 and so they can not meta their highest level effects. Power Word: Kill (it has both the Death and Mind-affecting descriptors) cast by a 20th level wizard is still capped at affecting up to 100 hit points (the same cap he had at 17th level) while a 20th level psion manifesting Microcosm can drop a foe with up to 130 hit points.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-19-07, 10:40 AM	Two words: "Massive Damage" http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage I one-shotted the BBEG in City of the Spider Queen with a tornado blast last night. I didn't even get started with temporal acceleration! When it comes down to it, level 8 and 9 psion powers are just as awesome as level 8 and 9 spells. If you invest in stat-boosting items, you also can get an ungodly amount of power points (the kineticist that performed the feat mentioned above could manifest 18 powers at full augmentation per day). Also, lower-level save-or-die powers simply augment to have higher DCs, even past 17th level, while wizards are just finding larger-area and higher-DC ways to kill things in the same old way.
carnivore 04-19-07, 01:49 PM	even though Psions can continue to Augment thier powers with PP to achieve effective "10th lvl" Spells/powers......Arcane and Divine casters still have a Huge advantage......Metamagic Rods....straight from CORE...a 9th lvl Spell augmented with a Metamagic Rod easily = 10th+ lvl spell: exa: Gray Elf Wizard with 2 Metamagic Rods(Greater Quicken and Greater Maximize) casting Meteor Swarm 6 times in 3 rounds= 8d6 no save + 24d6(ref 1/2) + 48 no save + 144(ref save =72) x 3= lots of damage........with a lot more AutoScaling Spells to follow ....this is one example of how WoTC OVERPOWERS SPELL CASTERS another example: new feats that reduce adjusted spell level of Metamagic Feats...even down to +0 Spell levels since Psions have such bad Save-or-Die powers to work with.....focus on other aspects of Combat: Battlefield Manipulation Direct Damage Buffing (self and Allies) on area that Psions have a major boost...Transportation...just learn to use it to your advantage :D
Kiklio 04-19-07, 10:19 PM	The fact that a psion picks up Temporal Acceleration at level 13 is huge compared to the level 17 Time Stop. The psion can budget out any number of TA's, while spellcasters might not prepare multiple TS's. That and the low cost of Delay Power means easy power stacking. Damaging, killing, or debilitating. Schism and Hustle just add more of a precious commodity readily available to psions: actions. Granted, psions might get Synchronicity at level 1, but how long is that going to last?
Friendlyfish 04-20-07, 10:43 PM	Thanks for the replies- I agree, Tempest Stormwind, that it seems like wizards are way more powerful at high levels than psions- so powerful, in fact, that a reasonable DM is going to take all of those spells away. Living Greyhawk is a case in point; all the broken stuff is on the restricted list. I think in a savvy DM's game, wizards, clerics and druids will get houseruled to approximately a psion's power. Also it's humorous; this thread has one of the highest view/reply ratios I've seen on these boards. Furtive interest, very furtive. Furtive. I like saying that.