| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Greatbear07-08-07, 11:53 AM | I've been playing in a game recently with another player who is a duskblade (PH II). This guy routinely drops a fistfull of dice onto the table with every blow his sword makes. It is not uncommon for him to drop a foe with a single blow while the rest of the party struggles to fend them off. Oh, and the duskblade has full BAB, two good saves, and lots of spellcasting ability. Remind me again what the justification was for not giving a psychic warrior full BAB? |
| Red_Decker07-08-07, 12:08 PM | Hmmm... Actually I just started a 3 party campaign from one and we have a Duskblade, PsyWar [me soulbound weapon], and a Bard. We haven't needed healing yet but the Bard has CLW on her spell list now that we've just gotten to 2nd level. I may talk to the DM about playtesting the PsyWar at full to see how I do compared to the Duskblade. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| Archangel6207-08-07, 12:10 PM | I've been playing in a game recently with another player who is a duskblade (PH II). This guy routinely drops a fistfull of dice onto the table with every blow his sword makes. It is not uncommon for him to drop a foe with a single blow while the rest of the party struggles to fend them off. Oh, and the duskblade has full BAB, two good saves, and lots of spellcasting ability. Remind me again what the justification was for not giving a psychic warrior full BAB? The bold part is where you're wrong, the duskblade can do a lot of damage but that's really about it. The psychic warrior has more self augmentation spells, can properly heal themselves, and have powers and abilities that provide overall more bang for the buck. Not to mention the larger number of feats. |
| Greatbear07-08-07, 12:41 PM | The bold part is where you're wrong, the duskblade can do a lot of damage but that's really about it. The psychic warrior has more self augmentation spells, can properly heal themselves, and have powers and abilities that provide overall more bang for the buck. Not to mention the larger number of feats. Well, that's true, the duskblade is primarily a damage-dealer, but it's the amount of damage it deals out in a single round compared to the other classes in the party of the same level that makes it, IMHO, horribly broken. Sure, a duskblade isn't the class you'd pick if you want to cast healing or charm spells, but that isn't why this particular player choose the class. He picked it because it's a walking H-bomb. So, getting back to my original question, why is that a the duskblade has full BAB and psy warrior doesn't? Because the psychic warrior can heal himself, a few extra feats, and has powers that are more "subtle" than a duskblade's spells? I'm not buying it.:banghead: |
| Scion of Coldshard07-08-07, 12:46 PM | The bold part is where you're wrong, the duskblade can do a lot of damage but that's really about it. The psychic warrior has more self augmentation spells, can properly heal themselves, and have powers and abilities that provide overall more bang for the buck. Not to mention the larger number of feats. Sadly the duskblade actually has a pretty good selection of damage dealing, debuffing, self buffing, and utility abilities on its list. Equivalent pp wise at level 20 the duskblade is at 194+arcane attunement vs the psychic warriors 127. A duskblade starts off with +1 BAB, +2 fort and will, arcane attunement, cast in light armor and with light shields, 2+int bonus 0th level spells, 2 1st level spells, 3 0th level spells per day, 2+bonus 1st level spells per day. A psychic warrior starts off with +0 BAB, +2 fort, psionic/fighter bonus feat, 0pp+bonus, 1 1st level power known. Their skill lists are comparable, same skill points, same hd.. The duskblade does seem to be a bit better overall... ;) |
| The Livewire07-08-07, 12:53 PM | Essentially... Duskblade, energizer bunny of blasting. He keeps damaging and damaging and damaging. With just a few small buffs or non-blasting tricks. More skill points (since Int is their casting stat) better skill list (debatable), BAB is better, saves are better. Psychic Warrior, fewer points/slots. slightly fewer powers, more feats, more HP (most likely, since you will take psionic body) lot more personal buffs, lots more variety, better spot/listen (Wisdom is casting stat) Always on powers (via psionic feats) Better AC at lower levels, no ASF. Can swipe powers from other psionic classes (via feats or expanded research) Edit: Forgot to mention, the psychic warrior can debuff the duskblade more effectively dispel psionics comes faster (7th vs 13th), and it can then go off at a +20 at 10th level for 10 PP. The Duskblade doesn't get Greater Dispel, so they'll max out at 1d20+10 vs a DC of 31 at 20th level (36 with dispelling buffer). Also a possible reading of the SRD would argue that a psion's powers aren't affected by globes of invulnerability. (Spell like = Psi-like, globes don't stop spell like) but we'll save that for another day. If Duskblades are Marines, then Psychic Warriors are special forces. (I guess that makes Lurks SEALS and Beguilers Psy-ops) Ok, all you with actual military experience can tear that apart now. :D Of course this can change the more splats you put in. Reserve feats are superior to psionic feats (for the most part) and Ab Champ gives the Duskblade ways to spend slots for buffs (Complete Mage). Damp Power gives a Duskblade headaches as their spells now do minimal damage. (Complete Psi) Dragon Magic offers more flexibility in feats and prestige classes to both. UTP puts the ball back in the psy-warrior's court. Duskblade will eventually have the advantage splatbook wise, now that (finally) we're seeing spells added to them. (Forge of War) |
| ReaderOfPosts07-08-07, 01:21 PM | A psywarrior can beat a duskblade in a duel likely no problem (at least at mid-high levels). It still doesn't mean they both add as much to the party. What does your psywarrior have? |
| Scion of Coldshard07-08-07, 01:50 PM | Edit: Forgot to mention, the psychic warrior can debuff the duskblade more effectively dispel psionics comes faster (7th vs 13th), and it can then go off at a +20 at 10th level for 10 PP. The duskblade can get dispelling touch at level 9 though. It does max out at +10, which makes sense. As a touch range spell it can be delivered through an attack and at level 13 it can poke someone multiple times on a full attack. As long as the caster level of whatever it is that is trying to be dispelled is less than 20 that makes for at least a chance of dispelling. At level 13 d20+10 vs, say, 28 means that each hit has a 15% chance, with haste 3 hits is certainly feasible which actually makes for a decent chance to dispel something. Using it to sunder weapons and armor is bastardly as well. Later on they can get Slashing Dispel and I am not sure why that spell doesnt go up to +15 or something. |
| Enchanter_Tom07-08-07, 03:02 PM | Re: Why doesn't the psywar have full BAB? Expanded Knowledge: Metamorphosis. The duskblade can only use the grossly inferior and controversial Extra Spell. A better question would be "Why doesn't the psywar have a good Will save?" |
| Zardnaar07-08-07, 04:27 PM | Psywarrior has a greater selection of spells/powers too chose from where the Duskblade is a bit limited. |
| TheKeyofE07-08-07, 06:22 PM | I just played in a group with both a duskblade and a psychic warrior. They both had monkey grip and a Large size 2-handed sword (their RP background was they had trained together, but one chose magic and the other chose psionics). The duskblade did do a lot of damage each hit, but honestly that's ALL he could do. He couldn't do anything but damage, and the player eventually admitted that the duskblade was a lot more boring than he had anticipated. The psywar would use augmented Expansion to grow two sizes, making his Large greatsword into a Gargantuan one. Combined with Psionic Weapon, the psywar was pumping out almost as many dice of damage as the duskblade, and actually ran out of PP slower than the duskblade ran out of spells (even though the duskblade has more "effective PP" worth of spells). The player also had more fun than the duskblade's player, because he had more options than just damage, damage, damage. Basically, when I first saw the duskblade, I thought "Hey, it's like a full BAB psywar!" But honestly, it's really not better. My actual in game experience with these two players shows that they're fairly balanced at mid-levels. The duskblade is stronger at lower levels, like less than four, but the psywar pulls ahead at later levels, despite his lower PP total. Bottom line, psychic warriors don't need full BAB to kick ass. See my post on the first page of the Psionic Motivators thread. |
| Hochiu07-08-07, 06:39 PM | Psychic Warriors also have more options to branch out from their initial class, I believe. To my knowledge, no real PrC supports the Duskblade if it multiclasses out of it at any point in time. The Duskblade spell list isn't supported in many ways, so it's a major detriment to those people that want to remain a damage-dealing powerhouse but move past a mono-class. IMO, they can be about the same level with a slight favor towards the Duskblade, but nothing too substantial if you know what you're doing. |
| Greatbear07-08-07, 10:05 PM | Psychic Warriors also have more options to branch out from their initial class, I believe. To my knowledge, no real PrC supports the Duskblade if it multiclasses out of it at any point in time. Well, the duskblade is a relatively new class, so there are fewer PrC ideas aimed directly to support it. There probably are many arcane caster PrCs that a duskblade could qualify for with little problem. True, the loss of caster levels most often isn't worth the extra abilities gained, but that's a problem for most of the caster classes. Personally, I find playing the psychic warrior to be more fun, but if you're a true power gamer, choosing between the two classes is a pretty obvious choice. The duskblade appeals to those who want their characters to destroy everything in sight, just like in the video games. Thematically, WOTC even describes it as a fighting technique first developed by elves, which is their usual code for a power gamer's dream. |
| Phoenix0007-08-07, 11:04 PM | *double post* |
| Phoenix0007-08-07, 11:10 PM | Duskblade will eventually have the advantage splatbook wise, now that (finally) we're seeing spells added to them. (Forge of War) Forge of War is in what book and what does it do? Any other good new duskblade spells? |
| Antendren07-08-07, 11:16 PM | Forge of War is a book. |
| Nom07-08-07, 11:40 PM | A duskblade ... cast in light armor and with light shieldsYou forgot to mention that a PsyWar (or any psionic) can "cast" in whatever armour they care to, and the PsyWar is proficient in it. Assuming he doesn't mind the ACP and Max Dex, a level 1 PsyWar can happily run (walk?) around in half or full plate with a heavy shield. |
| Soahc07-09-07, 01:03 AM | The Psiwar would absolutely kill the Duskblade in a 1 on 1. Metamorphisis Physthic Then expand to Gargantuan Size. Not only will the PW's stat will be better, by Selecting a couple powers, and extend power he can walk around all buffed and beautiful. He'll be draining the str using Strength of my enemy, and draining the DuskBlade prescious Int using mind feed. Since most of his buffs will be 2 days long he'll fight with full pp, your higher HP matters not due to vigor, witch will give me an extra 100 THP. Since I'm buffed before hand, and only a few select powers need to be used in the beginning, I'll use the rest of my reserve for power like _ vigor and empty minded and evadeburst just incase. |
| TheKeyofE07-09-07, 01:20 AM | *snip* What you say is true, but I think the discussion is more about which class adds more to the party, rather than which class would win in a fight. ("Who would win in a fight between the Hurricane, and Coach Ditka?") Also, you assume Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis), which I've never really liked. IMO, shapechanging is such a cop-out. If you have to shapechange to win, the argument becomes kind of moot, because the Duskblade could have a ring of spellstoring with Polymorph Self in it. But I still think the psywar would win even without Metamorphosis. Form of Doom makes a half-decent substitute, plus all the other buffs he has. |
| Scion of Coldshard07-09-07, 03:59 AM | You forgot to mention that a PsyWar (or any psionic) can "cast" in whatever armour they care to, and the PsyWar is proficient in it. Assuming he doesn't mind the ACP and Max Dex, a level 1 PsyWar can happily run (walk?) around in half or full plate with a heavy shield. Manifesting doesnt incur arcane spell failure but I likely should have mentioned it, it just was too much of a given for me at the time and didnt even think about it. In general though light armor is the only kind of armor I really care about. Heavier types restrict too much and once you can get mithral breastplate why use anything else? |
| Scion of Coldshard07-09-07, 04:05 AM | The Psiwar would absolutely kill the Duskblade in a 1 on 1. Metamorphisis Physthic Then expand to Gargantuan Size. Not only will the PW's stat will be better, by Selecting a couple powers, and extend power he can walk around all buffed and beautiful. He'll be draining the str using Strength of my enemy, and draining the DuskBlade prescious Int using mind feed. Since most of his buffs will be 2 days long he'll fight with full pp, your higher HP matters not due to vigor, witch will give me an extra 100 THP. Since I'm buffed before hand, and only a few select powers need to be used in the beginning, I'll use the rest of my reserve for power like _ vigor and empty minded and evadeburst just incase. While 1 on 1 battles dont really show anything here why are you assuming level 20 only? Also, if you are giving the psychic warrior at least one round of buffing why arent you giving the duskblade the same? Still, a quickened spell followed by a full attack where each hit also gives d4 negative levels would be painful even for the psychic warrior unless he found a way to be immune ;) |
| MagickHobo07-09-07, 04:15 AM | I just played in a group with both a duskblade and a psychic warrior. They both had monkey grip and a Large size 2-handed sword (their RP background was they had trained together, but one chose magic and the other chose psionics). The duskblade did do a lot of damage each hit, but honestly that's ALL he could do. He couldn't do anything but damage, and the player eventually admitted that the duskblade was a lot more boring than he had anticipated. The psywar would use augmented Expansion to grow two sizes, making his Large greatsword into a Gargantuan one. Combined with Psionic Weapon, the psywar was pumping out almost as many dice of damage as the duskblade, and actually ran out of PP slower than the duskblade ran out of spells (even though the duskblade has more "effective PP" worth of spells). The player also had more fun than the duskblade's player, because he had more options than just damage, damage, damage. Basically, when I first saw the duskblade, I thought "Hey, it's like a full BAB psywar!" But honestly, it's really not better. My actual in game experience with these two players shows that they're fairly balanced at mid-levels. The duskblade is stronger at lower levels, like less than four, but the psywar pulls ahead at later levels, despite his lower PP total. Bottom line, psychic warriors don't need full BAB to kick ass. See my post on the first page of the Psionic Motivators thread. You see, THIS is what makes a good argument. Actual experience with the class in question, based on how it preformed for the party. Threads like this often get too bogged down in the one-on-one arena battle, using nothing but speculation on what the classes would/should/could do to each other. Which has noting to do with DnD since it's not really a PvP game, and I doubt ANY class was balanced around this idea. Back on track, I have no idea why the PsyWar doesn't have a Full BaB. But all the other people have offered some nice suggestions. On to your problem of the Duskblade totally out preforming you with its t3h 00b4r 4ws30m3 b0rk3dn3ss, what actually goes on in combat? You know, actual game play experience? Like, does everyone just say "I full defense" while the Duskblade goes out and slaughters everything, or do you actually contribute, and are just jealous because he gets to roll all those d6's and you don't? Is it somewhere in the middle, where you try to contribute, but it doesn't really matter because you might as well full-defense while he slaughters everything? |
| Scion of Coldshard07-09-07, 04:19 AM | You see, THIS is what makes a good argument. Actual experience with the class in question, based on how it preformed for the party. I would like more info personally. That post says that the duskblade could only do stuff in combat and then talked about what the psychic warrior did in combat. If it is a comparison about how one was useful in only one place while another was useful in both and did as well as the first in its one area then some description of why and how for each would be great ;) |
| MagickHobo07-09-07, 04:44 AM | I would like more info personally. That post says that the duskblade could only do stuff in combat and then talked about what the psychic warrior did in combat. If it is a comparison about how one was useful in only one place while another was useful in both and did as well as the first in its one area then some description of why and how for each would be great ;) I get what you're saying, and more info is always good, but you do have to admit that it's much more relevant to the problem at hand than the 1-v-1 fights that are, again, nothing but one-sided speculation. |
| The_Shaman07-09-07, 06:48 AM | I do not know if non-psiwarrior powers like metamorphosis should be counted in the equation. I certainly feel a little iffy if they are touted as practically a necessity for a psychic warrior who tries to keep up. |
| Noodles237507-09-07, 08:30 AM | Well, the duskblade is a relatively new class, so there are fewer PrC ideas aimed directly to support it. There probably are many arcane caster PrCs that a duskblade could qualify for with little problem. True, the loss of caster levels most often isn't worth the extra abilities gained, but that's a problem for most of the caster classes. Personally, I find playing the psychic warrior to be more fun, but if you're a true power gamer, choosing between the two classes is a pretty obvious choice. The duskblade appeals to those who want their characters to destroy everything in sight, just like in the video games. Thematically, WOTC even describes it as a fighting technique first developed by elves, which is their usual code for a power gamer's dream. I don't know if the Duskblade has anything comparable to the classic Rn 2/ Psywar 8/Slayer 10 that can make a psywarrior so undeniably deadly to the enemy of his choice, in addition to letting him gobble up a few class features that make up for his poor base will save (hello lucid buffer and cerebral immunity!) and which coincidentally, play well with his psionic meditation that he HAS to take! In my mind, not only is the psywar a beautiful choice to 20, but an exceedingly good transition class to the psionic prestige class of your choice. |
| RadicalTaoist07-09-07, 09:45 AM | A Duskblade can't rock grapple modifiers of 26 or higher practically in his sleep by level 6, or enjoy easy 40' threatened areas. |
| Salick07-09-07, 03:28 PM | In my opinion the 8 bonus feats a Psywar gets more then makes up for the priest like base attack. As was already stated the Psywars power list is superior to a Duskblades spell list and through expanded knowledge (feat) did I mention you get 8 bonus ones? you can take any power off of any other psionic class list. A quick example: take the psycrystal affinity feat/take expanded knowledge (share pain) now the Psywar has more HP then a barbarian raging or "my attack sucks" guess I will take this deep impact feat and make touch attacks from now on. etc...etc.. |
| Enchanter_Tom07-09-07, 03:37 PM | A Duskblade can't rock grapple modifiers of 26 or higher practically in his sleep by level 6, or enjoy easy 40' threatened areas. Pretty much. The psychic warrior is supposed to be a cross between a psion and a fighter. It does alright with both, but it doesn't get the powers of a psion or the combat abilities of the fighter. However, it's an awesome self-buffer. Think of it as a bard that has bonus feats instead of music. The only thing I would change would be to give the class a few more power points simply because it could use a little boost in that area, in my most humble opinion. I also submit to you Exhibit A: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm The bard has more spell points than the psychic warrior does power points. Look at the primary casters--they all have significantly fewer spellpoints than the psion/wilder/ardent have power points. Thus, I believe that the psychic warrior could use a little calibration in that department. |
| SlanderPanic07-09-07, 03:46 PM | Psychic warriors are for players who have an interest in the game outside of combat. Duskblades seem to be for players who only care about smashing stuff. I think Greatbear's biggest complaint is that the duskblade in his party is ruining everyone else's fun. If one guy can drop most of the monsters in one or two hits, why should the rest of the group even bother rolling initiative? I've played with spotlight-hogging characters like that before, one of them a psychic warrior who's frightened that campaign's DM away from psionics, and I feel they're pretty antithetical to the spirit of the game. If I want to sit back and watch someone else cleave through all the monsters in a dungeon, I'll watch my friends play video games. I come to the D&D table for more than that. |
| Enchanter_Tom07-09-07, 04:43 PM | By that logic, fighters are for characters who only like to smash things. Maybe I should create the "Enchanter's Fallacy" or something. |
| Hochiu07-09-07, 04:48 PM | Ugh, please don't. It would be overused, misunderstood, and always taken completely out of context. |
| Scottbert07-09-07, 05:16 PM | Let's see that duskblade deal with a group of weak monsters instead of a single strong one. IIRC, duskblade spells are almost all most effective in single combat. Admittedly, psywars aren't the best area blasters either... I don't know, but for me, doing damage is nice, but I like to do more. (Fortunately, I can have it both ways with a duskblade3/wizard4/spellsword1/prestigeclasses build. Channel spells and get all the versatility of a wizard gish on top!). Though, the one time I tried that duskblade/wizard/gish build, it certainly was impressive to drop half of the massive monster's HP in one round... I don't know. It's a playstyle thing, I guess. |
| TheKeyofE07-09-07, 07:30 PM | I would like more info personally. That post says that the duskblade could only do stuff in combat and then talked about what the psychic warrior did in combat. If it is a comparison about how one was useful in only one place while another was useful in both and did as well as the first in its one area then some description of why and how for each would be great ;) The psywar had an adamantine weapon. He was our big, loud lockpick: several times we came across a door we couldn't open, and he just grew two sizes and smashed it with his sword. He even smashed through stone walls once or twice. The duskblade couldn't emulate despite channeling damage spells; all energy except sonic is halved against objects. The duskblade's player actually wanted to take Improved Sunder so he could smash weapons, but he didn't have enough feats to get it until level 9. The psywar's bonus feats would have been really handy for him. Psywar also had Psionic Levitate, and no one else could fly without a potion, so he could get places most of us couldn't. Even if the duskblade had learned swift fly, it wouldn't have helped because it only lasts one round. Really what I was trying to get at is that the psywar was more fun. He had more options, both in combat and out. Channel Spell, while effective, is boring when that's all you can do. The duskblade's player learned Bigby's Tripping Hand, and started using that more often than channel spell because it was both more effective and more fun. But he still only had basically two options. The irony here is that the point of the duskblade class was to give the player more options, but in my experience it actually had the opposite effect. But I stand by my earlier statement that they are fairly balanced power wise, despite the duskblade's better BAB and saves. So Greatbear, the justification for not giving the psywar full BAB is they simply don't need it to be effective, just like a cleric. Although, as someone else said, why don't they have good will saves? It fits the class concept, and wouldn't be overpowered. Also, it sounded from the original post that Greatbear was having dice envy. What level are you? My actual in game experience was from levels 5-9. If your friend's duskblade is level five or less, channeling shocking grasp every attack will drop a lot of extra dice on the table. But shocking grasp caps out at 5d6, and after that the only real option for channeling is scorching ray. Just wait until higher levels when you fight more energy resistant enemies, then the duskblade will have to channel non-damaging spells like enervate or ray of exhaustion, and then the psywar will pull ahead in damage. |
| Archangel6207-09-07, 08:04 PM | Well, that's true, the duskblade is primarily a damage-dealer, but it's the amount of damage it deals out in a single round compared to the other classes in the party of the same level that makes it, IMHO, horribly broken. Sure, a duskblade isn't the class you'd pick if you want to cast healing or charm spells, but that isn't why this particular player choose the class. He picked it because it's a walking H-bomb. So, getting back to my original question, why is that a the duskblade has full BAB and psy warrior doesn't? Because the psychic warrior can heal himself, a few extra feats, and has powers that are more "subtle" than a duskblade's spells? I'm not buying it.:banghead: Except that damage means squat at mid to high levels. The class can hurt things, but it has little to no utility and has really few effective combat options. Enemies at range are an issue, swarms become problematic until they can channel for a full attack or whirlwind, and the class has a fair amount of MAD, arguably more than the Psychic warrior who gets a lot more out of it than the duskblade really can. |
| Greatbear07-09-07, 09:28 PM | Also, it sounded from the original post that Greatbear was having dice envy. What level are you? My actual in game experience was from levels 5-9. Right now, the party is 7-8 level. I'm actually not playing the psy warrior in this campaign. It isn't about "dice envy", it's about the rest of the party have equal opportunities to shine. And, when we face multiple foes, the horribly broken duskblade still outpaces every other character. While the rest of the party is engaging Monster A, he's already dropped Monster B in a single blow. Then, he casually walks over to Monster A, drops it, and then moves on to drop Monsters C and D. |
| Greatbear07-09-07, 09:32 PM | Pretty much. The psychic warrior is supposed to be a cross between a psion and a fighter. It does alright with both, but it doesn't get the powers of a psion or the combat abilities of the fighter. However, it's an awesome self-buffer. Think of it as a bard that has bonus feats instead of music. Fair enough. And I can agree that the psy warrior can be effective w/o full BAB. But then, if the psy warrior is a psion/fighter cross, then a duskblade is a sorcerer/fighter cross. So, if the psy warrior is effective w/o full BAB, why give it to the horribly broken duskblade? I'm sorry, but after seeing this class in action as player, there is no way I will ever allow it in a campaign as a DM. :nonono: |
| Fafnir07-09-07, 09:59 PM | Fair enough. And I can agree that the psy warrior can be effective w/o full BAB. But then, if the psy warrior is a psion/fighter cross, then a duskblade is a sorcerer/fighter cross. So, if the psy warrior is effective w/o full BAB, why give it to the horribly broken duskblade? I'm sorry, but after seeing this class in action as player, there is no way I will ever allow it in a campaign as a DM. :nonono: This is strange... I'm DMing an optimized Duskblade as of now, and I cannot see what would make it so uber. They're good, but that's it. Not much beside blasting, and unless each fight is against a single big target, I just... dunno, fail to see any instance of brokenness. YMMV, I guess. :confused: |
| Meep32607-09-07, 10:29 PM | You forgot to mention that a PsyWar (or any psionic) can "cast" in whatever armour they care to, and the PsyWar is proficient in it. Assuming he doesn't mind the ACP and Max Dex, a level 1 PsyWar can happily run (walk?) around in half or full plate with a heavy shield. Yes... if you could find a DM that would allow you to get that. And even then, at higher levels it's better/easier to use your powers and augment them for AC. If you use Extra Spell to get Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor) and Shield for the duskblade and then take Abjurant Champian you can get +11 from Greater Mage Armor and +9 from Shield and fight unhindered. |
| serow_#R07-09-07, 11:05 PM | Maybe the rest of the party isn't using effective tactics? They're trying to outdamage a Duskblade at low levels for goodness sake. |
| Greatbear07-10-07, 12:10 AM | Maybe the rest of the party isn't using effective tactics? They're trying to outdamage a Duskblade at low levels for goodness sake. No, they never even have a chance to try to outdamage him. |
| Greatbear07-10-07, 12:12 AM | This is strange... I'm DMing an optimized Duskblade as of now, and I cannot see what would make it so uber. They're good, but that's it. Not much beside blasting, and unless each fight is against a single big target, I just... dunno, fail to see any instance of brokenness. YMMV, I guess. :confused: Sigh. Please reread. He blasts every target, one at a time. That's what his character does. Yes, that's all he does, but it makes the rest of the party almost redundant in combat. |
| SKB07-10-07, 12:42 AM | Interesting...so what does the duskblade do vs multiple flying creatures?, in a water enviroment?, vs a tripper/disarmer?, having his weapon sundered?, vs casters?, vs concealment/vision effects?, etc??? It sounds like the DM is just placing one-dimensional ground pounders against your party and the duskblade just walks up and pounds'em. Don't hate the class, hate the DM's game. |
| Nom07-10-07, 02:14 AM | Yes... if you could find a DM that would allow you to get that.Half plate is well within wealth per level for a 1st level PC (albeit not a starting one). Mwk Full plate is quite easily available from level 2 or 3. And even then, at higher levels it's better/easier to use your powers and augment them for AC. If you use Extra Spell to get Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor) and Shield for the duskblade and then take Abjurant Champian you can get +11 from Greater Mage Armor and +9 from Shield and fight unhindered.Quite possibly. Similarly, the PsyWar can use inertial armour (15 pp for +11) and force screen (13 pp for +7). However, you need to ask yourself whether that's the best way to spend those spells / slots / pp and, most importantly, casting time. A suit of +5 fullplate is +13 armour and only costs 25k. It's not hard to get it in either mithral or adamantine nor to add some special abilities. Similarly for a +5 heavy shield (+7 AC). And these don't cost PP/spells or actions. I also note that full plate isn't necessarily that much of a mobility hit to a PsyWar if he doesn't want it to be. From about power level 3 there are plenty of teleportation and movement magics available, and the speed loss isn't that critical anyway. Duskblades I'm not familiar enough with to comment on. Side observation: your example duskblade went to a lot of effort to get those spells. And I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression the Abjurant Champion only worked on Abjurations (mage armour is a conjuration). |
| Enchanter_Tom07-10-07, 03:42 AM | Le sigh. If one bans the duskblade for being broken, then one must ban any full-casting class, lest one be labeled an inept DM and a hypocrite. The duskblade is like the warmage--he does one thing and he does it well. Anything else is beyond his abilities. It's not a broken class. It's a fun class that is a gish-in-a-can without needing PrCs or feats to be effective. Druid vs. duskblade--guess who wins? |
| Enchanter_Tom07-10-07, 03:52 AM | Double-post. As for why the psywar doesn't need full BAB while the duskblade does: versatility. The psywar has many nifty powers and can take powers from other lists with his bonus feats. The duskblade has spells that do d6s. It's less of a merging of sorc/fighter and more warmage/fighter, except with a crippled, limited spell list. The duskblade needs four attacks at level 16+. The psywar doesn't. |
| Fafnir07-10-07, 06:12 AM | Sigh. Please reread. He blasts every target, one at a time. That's what his character does. Yes, that's all he does, but it makes the rest of the party almost redundant in combat. I did read that. That's what puzzles me. It shouldn't happen. He does, what, 2d6+5d6+6 (average 30)? or 2d6+5d6+6+2d4 (average 35) with Arcane Strike? It's not that much, my party's fighter does more. Meanwhile the Psyrogue/Warmind is using a S&B build (ok, suboptimal, but he enjoys high AC), doing 1d10+3+2d6+2d6 (average 22) with Psionic Weapon and sneak attacks, never gets hit, and can provide support in the form of Entangling Ectoplasm and similar powers the Duskblade will never have. Seems pretty balanced to me. Who cares if he's dropping people in one hit? A fight often has several opponents. Let the Duskblade enjoy himself blasting. There's no much else he can do. I'll have to second TheKeyOfE and SKB and call it a case of one dimensional DMing. |
| The Livewire07-10-07, 09:08 AM | Yes... if you could find a DM that would allow you to get that. And even then, at higher levels it's better/easier to use your powers and augment them for AC. If you use Extra Spell to get Mage Armor (or Greater Mage Armor) and Shield for the duskblade and then take Abjurant Champian you can get +11 from Greater Mage Armor and +9 from Shield and fight unhindered. If you could find a DM who would allow that... Ab champ doesn't work on Mage armour, Extra spell doesn't allow you to pluck it off other casters list. (Though that's a popular house rule.) Plus you are putting off the full attack until 18th level |
| Enchanter_Tom07-10-07, 09:32 AM | 1. Abjurant Champion was intended to work with mage armor. 2. AbC has full BAB. 3. Extra Spell is so vague that any interpretation outside of "you can pick a spell off of any class list or make one up" is a house rule, and the Sage pulled the ruling out of his ass for that one. |
| The_Shaman07-10-07, 10:33 AM | "Abjurant Champion was intended to work with mage armor." :rolleyes: For all we know, psychic warrior might have been intended to have a strong will save, or good BAB. Is there at least a Sage column on that? It might make a good houserule, but measuring intent is a rather tricky thing. |
| Fafnir07-10-07, 10:54 AM | "Abjurant Champion was intended to work with mage armor." :rolleyes: For all we know, psychic warrior might have been intended to have a strong will save, or good BAB. Is there at least a Sage column on that? It might make a good houserule, but measuring intent is a rather tricky thing. It was explicitly stated by the developers, though I can't seem to find where. |
| Enchanter_Tom07-10-07, 03:24 PM | And stated in the class description. Either way: the duskblade is not broken. |
| Greatbear07-10-07, 09:41 PM | Interesting...so what does the duskblade do vs multiple flying creatures?, in a water enviroment?, vs a tripper/disarmer?, having his weapon sundered?, vs casters?, vs concealment/vision effects?, etc??? It sounds like the DM is just placing one-dimensional ground pounders against your party and the duskblade just walks up and pounds'em. Don't hate the class, hate the DM's game. As a matter of fact, we had a water encounter against multiple opponents last week, and yes, the horribly broken* duskblade again dominated the combat. *You can keep saying you don't think it's broken. I've seen the class in action. It's broken. |
| Red_Decker07-10-07, 10:21 PM | As a matter of fact, we had a water encounter against multiple opponents last week, and yes, the horribly broken* duskblade again dominated the combat. *You can keep saying you don't think it's broken. I've seen the class in action. It's broken. I've seen it in action as well and have played it. It's good no doubt, but I don't think its broken. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt |
| Enchanter_Tom07-10-07, 11:55 PM | It does damage; therefore, it is broken. Much like the wilder. |
| TheKeyofE07-11-07, 12:00 AM | Maybe everyone else in the party is just under-optimized? Besides psywar and duskblade, what do you have in the party, Greatbear? |
| Scion of Coldshard07-11-07, 12:11 AM | As a matter of fact, we had a water encounter against multiple opponents last week, and yes, the horribly broken* duskblade again dominated the combat. Greatbear? Meet SombreNote (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883356), you two have a lot to talk about ;) |
| Greatbear07-11-07, 12:32 AM | Maybe everyone else in the party is just under-optimized? No more or less than than characters in every other game I've played or DMed in. Okay, I'm ready to give up on this thread. I've discussed how how and why I feel the duskblade is broken and no one has yet to give me an adequate justification for giving it full BAB on top of its already high damage potential. |
| Lycanthromancer07-11-07, 12:43 AM | No more or less than than characters in every other game I've played or DMed in. Okay, I'm ready to give up on this thread. I've discussed how how and why I feel the duskblade is broken and no one has yet to give me an adequate justification for giving it full BAB on top of its already high damage potential.Maybe some anecdotal evidence would help. What is he doing, and how is he doing it? What spell(s) is he using? Is he using a two-handed weapon, or two weapon fighting? Sword n board, or a spiked chain? What tactics are he using, round-by-round? Some more info would be quite useful. Maybe he's bending/breaking the rules? Are there houserules we don't know about? |
| RadicalTaoist07-11-07, 12:45 AM | Greatbear, the more details you give us, the more we can see where and why the duskblade is proving so powerful. Frankly, the thought of a duskblade I couldn't leave in the dust with a tactically minded psychic warrior strikes me as a near-impossibility. |
| TheKeyofE07-11-07, 12:47 AM | Greatbear? Meet SombreNote (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883356), you two have a lot to talk about ;) LOL. So we have one vote for duskblade as stronger than psywar, one vote for duskblade as weaker than psywar, and my vote for duskblade equal power compared to a psywar. Hmm... Basically, Greatbear, you feel the duskblade is overpowered, but almost no one agrees with you. It sounds to me like a player problem, not a class problem. If you feel your friend's duskblade is unbalancing the game, talk to your DM and other players and see if they feel the same way. If so, try to talk it out and find a way for everyone to have fun and have a chance for the lime light. |
| Lycanthromancer07-11-07, 01:16 AM | At least psionics isn't going to be banned in THAT game. :) |