Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StruckingFuggle 02-14-08, 06:53 PM	Just wondering. I've picked up that the PsyWar is fairly benign, neither overly powerful nor overly weak, and that the Soulknife is considered to be pretty darn weak. So the idea hit me to take the two classes and smash them together into a single class, taking the abilities of both. Maybe monkey with some of the basic hd, skill, saves stuff, but basically a 3/4 bab warrior with all the soulknife and psywar class skills. Would it be good, or "holy crap, too powerful!"?
Lycanthromancer 02-14-08, 06:55 PM	It's been done. Check the Mind's Eye for the psychic warrior variant for exactly this same thing. :P
StruckingFuggle 02-14-08, 06:58 PM	... Oh. Well then. (Thanks!) So what's /Psionics/'s opinion of that version? Edit: I was examining the Wizards board and searching for "Psychic Warrior", and I'm finding some things, but nothing like what I was describing...?
Lycanthromancer 02-14-08, 07:14 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a under 'soulbound weapon.' Granted, it's not exactly like the soulknife, but then again, you can use your psychic warrior powers to boost your weapon's abilities, and use feats to gain bladewind, and so on.
StruckingFuggle 02-14-08, 07:30 PM	Aha. Well, what about something closer to the two being gestalted into a single class (except remove Wild Talent since it's unnecessary), but for the non-class feature stuff go with the PsyWar base?
InkBlot 02-14-08, 07:38 PM	If the Soulbound Weapon variant is any indicator, then you could give the Psychic Warrior the Mind Blade class feature without taking away anything more than one power known, one feat, and a handful of power points. The Mind Blade Enhancement class feature is apparently worth another handful of power points. Shape Mind Blade is probably worth another feat.
Scion of Coldshard 02-14-08, 08:34 PM	I think that the psychic warrior needs a bit more pp anyway and I dont think that any class should get only 2 base skill points a level.. But with that said, I am pretty sure that there have been several different attempts to turn the soulknife class into a set of feats that could be taken by the psychic warrior. I think that changing the skill selection of the psychic warrior slightly, increasing its skill points to 4, add in a good reflex save, lose a power known now and then, and removing its first two bonus feats you could probably add on the entire set soulknife special abilities without much problem.
TheKeyofE 02-14-08, 09:04 PM	I think that changing the feat selection of the psychic warrior slightly, increasing its skill points to 4, add in a good reflex save, lose a power known now and then, and removing its first two bonus feats you could probably add on the entire set soulknife special abilities without much problem. The easy way to do this is give the soulknife the divine mind's manifesting progression without taking anything away. I think that would put it about equal with the current psychic warrior. If you wanted something a little more powerful, give it a psywar's manifesting progression without taking anything away.
StruckingFuggle 02-14-08, 09:43 PM	KeyOfE, what about the Divine Mind progression (though I don't know what that's like...) and the Psy War feats, except not the first level one? Granted, this would be grafting the two classes together; PsyWar wouldn't exist in a campaign with the "Soulwarrior".
The_Mess 02-14-08, 10:01 PM	As far as turning the soulknife into a collection of feats, someone has to mention Dreamscarred Press's "Mind Blade Feats" book.
ToastedAmphibian 02-14-08, 11:55 PM	1st +0 +2 +0 +0 Bonus feat, Mind Blade.................... 0 1 1st 2nd +1 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat, Throw Mind Blade.............. 1 2 1st 3rd +2 +3 +1 +1 Psychic Strike +1d8....................... 3 3 1st 4th +3 +4 +1 +1 +1 Mind Blade............................. 5 4 2nd 5th +3 +4 +1 +1 Bonus feat, Free Draw, Shape Mind blade... 7 5 2nd 6th +4 +5 +2 +2 ........................................ .. 11 6 2nd 7th +5 +5 +2 +2 Psychic Strike +2d8....................... 15 7 3rd 8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat, +2 Mind blade................. 19 8 3rd 9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +3 Blade Wind................................ 23 9 3rd 10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +3 ........................................ .. 27 10 4th 11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat, Psychic Strike +3d8........... 35 11 4th 12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +4 +3 Mind Blade............................. 43 12 4th 13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +4 Knife to the Soul......................... 51 13 5th 14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat................................ 59 14 5th 15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +5 Psychic Strike +4d8....................... 67 15 5th 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 +4 Mind Blade............................. 79 16 6th 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat, Multiple Throw................ 91 17 6th 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 ........................................ .. 103 18 6th 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Psychic Strike +5d8....................... 115 19 6th 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Bonus feat +5 Mind Blade.................. 127 20 6th You mean like this?
Flamewarrior 02-15-08, 02:08 AM	I had made this one (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1036&postnum=0) quite a time ago. I'm aware it isn't balanced with the psychic warrior, and do know the latter's considered a well-balanced class (and mostly agree), but I did find that there was a fair amount of classes better than it (most of the time) that still were rather tractable (e.g. rogue, beguiler, warblade), so I did set the bar somewhat higher (for the other classes I made at that forum too). Still, since I think the psychic warrior's noticeably worse than the psion, I think this my arsenalist and the psion still play mostly the same game.
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 02:15 AM	You mean like this? Something like that, yeah. Hm, you got rid of some stuff, though. But basically, yeah.
forsaken1111 02-15-08, 06:30 AM	Some stuff has to go, in the name of balance. As other people have mentioned, you could always just use the psywar's bonus feats to take the soulknife feats from the High Psionics: Soulknives (http://www.yourgamesnow.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&manufacturers_id=52&products_id=1669) book by Dreamscarred Press.
Flamewarrior 02-15-08, 06:49 AM	Or better yet, build a mind blade from scratch from any class with the feats here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=22.html) (of course, it works best with a psychic warrior).
TheKeyofE 02-15-08, 09:02 AM	Or better yet, build a mind blade from scratch from any class with the feats here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/Store/product/pid=22.html) (of course, it works best with a psychic warrior). There's also this list (http://toosigma.com/rpg/workshop/feats/mindblade.php). I don't know how similar they are to those in the Dreamscarred book.
Flamewarrior 02-15-08, 11:17 AM	I don't have the final version ATM (my computer crashed and I went outta the loop until just about now, and am still not using mine), I can tell that the differences may include some extra feats, and do include class variants designed to accomodate mind blades (for example, a non-spellcasting ranger), and editing and proofreading, which weren't extensive by the time of the material in drunkenewok's page. It may also be of interest that the enlightened monk (PP-using variant, better than the PHB crap ...) and the halo knight (new base class) from the next Mind Unveiled installments will both have options for class-native mind blades. - Sérgio Teixeira da Silva, Dreamscarred Press proofreader hoping to have been helpful ...
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 11:26 AM	Some stuff has to go, in the name of balance. Still ... What are the 'balance points', so to speak, of the various versions based on what stays and what goes?
forsaken1111 02-15-08, 05:08 PM	In my opinion its completely unnecessary to construct an entirely new class for what you want. There are several avenues to what you want, pointed out above in the thread. The books cited above have variant soulknives which are very close to what you want, and they have a variant which reduces the mindblade to a series of feats you take instead rather than its own class. Either of these can create a very servicable "Psywar soulknife" without dealing with balance issues or new class construction.
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 05:19 PM	For the life of me I can't figure out why, but that reply (Forsaken), more'n anything else, encourages me to ignore those offered ways of doing it through substitution levels or features and just smash the two together, make some changes, and see how it works in my game; partially because, I think, it totally misses part of what I wanted to consider, which was putting the two together rather than grafting one onto the other at the expense of feats. That's just so ... boring and feat intensive. But that doesn't even make up half of it. Hm. And the question still hasn't really been answered - or outright ignored by half the posters, which is starting to get annoying.
forsaken1111 02-15-08, 05:29 PM	So sorry to have annoyed you. :rolleyes: Did you even review the suggested material? There are several variant soulknives offered, even one which gets manifesting. I don't see why you feel the need to reinvent the wheel. By 'smashing the classes together' you are probably going to get: A. An overpowered psywar with bonus feats plus all the nifty soulknife abilities plus manifesting. B. An underpowered psywar missing some or most of the features you wanted anyway. C. Exactly what is already created elsewhere in the resources you've been linked to, or in the books which were recommended. I gave you my opinion, as have several other people. If you don't like it, stuff it. We're not here to make you happy. Several have tried to show you supplimentary material which would help you, but you seem to be more interested in having us do the work for you. If you really want to do it, then by all means 'smash them together' and playtest it.
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 06:24 PM	Did you even review the suggested material? Of course. I even commented on some of it. I don't see why you feel the need to reinvent the wheel. I don't see what's wrong with inventing my own wheel if it's no bother to the person (ME) doing the work... Besides, just because the official options exist doesn't mean they're good ones. I mean, hell, Soulknife exists as an option. :) A. An overpowered psywar with bonus feats plus all the nifty soulknife abilities plus manifesting. B. An underpowered psywar missing some or most of the features you wanted anyway. Thank you for actually considering my question, now. A is what we're possibly looking at, because B isn't very likely. So then... For A, "overpowered" in what sense? Overpowered relative to what? The Soulknife? Well that's a given, that was the intent from the get-go. Or...? C. Exactly what is already created elsewhere in the resources you've been linked to, or in the books which were recommended. You have a funny usage of the word exact; and the books might be a good idea but I'm not going to go buy a new book just for a class that can "exactly", as you call it, be created from OGL SRD material. That would be absurd. I gave you my opinion, as have several other people. If you don't like it, stuff it. We're not here to make you happy. No, but if I ask questions about apples, I don't expect to hear replies about goats. That's justifiable annoyance, as is, arguably, annoyance with your attitude, but that treads to much on the grounds of "Internet - serious business" to bear much consideration beyond the initial spike of '>:|'. And if you don't like it, no one's compelling you to respond. Several have tried to show you supplimentary material which would help you, but you seem to be more interested in having us do the work for you. What WORK am I asking you to DO? The work has basically already been done. By me. The "work" consists of little more than adding the Soulknife class skills and class features to the PsyWar. I did a little writeup and had most of it done in under 10 minutes just copy-pasting and find-replacing from d20srd.org. The question was never "how do I do it?" but rather, "okay, so there's this class, where does this version of it fall in terms of power and balance?" I wasn't even asking people to playtest it, I was asking people if they had any thoughts on how it fits (inside, to clarify, the picture of options as a whole, considering all published material, against ToB and the PHBII and the like, not just against Core) relative to everything else. And if you read the thread - which I now question how much you've done, starting with my OP - you'd see that that question hasn't really been addressed much in this thread.
jbsaff 02-15-08, 06:37 PM	SF: Your question was answered almost immediately with the intent to provide a balanced solution. Given the PsyWar's reputation as a highly balanced class as is, this necessitated some re-arranging of class abilities. As you are probably aware, the Psionics forum tends to pay extra attention to balance issues, given how much we've had to defend the XPH. As soon as it became clear that you weren't concerned with balance, only interested in what the outcome of such an endeaver would be, the answer was readily given. And that answer is "Go for it and see how it works." Sure, it seems simple. But given that you want to do something that few people have seen much need for, it's not suprising that you got replies about what people knew. In short, the answer to your question about how well it works in a game that includes all material is that we don't know for sure, but it will probably be overpowered. How overpowered we can't exactly say, but given that it's a melee focus class anyway, probably not game-breakingly so. Give it a shot, because I'm sure there are people interested in how well it works. :)
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 07:20 PM	Crap. More time passed than I thought. I woulda liked to edit my post, it came off more confrontational and ... unhappy ... than I meant it to. :( I'm not necessarily concerned with WotC's notions of "balanced", but that doesn't mean I'm not interested in balance at all. :/ 'Un/balanced' and '(over/under)powered' are relative things, hence my trying to figure out where on the power line such a class balances. Does it completely break things? Well that'd depend on the game, it's still not going to run with a well-built cleric or competently wizard or soundly designed druid... You can't even really say "the PsyWar is balanced", either, without first defining what it's balanced against - 'balance' isn't a term that can be used in a vacuum; which is why I could have sworn I'd've provided a mark I was aiming for it to be 'tiered' with, but I guess I didn't. I shall learn for the future. And yeah, some suggestions were given... some of the were annoying ("OH GO BUY THIS BOOK *plug!*" ... not gonna happen...), and some were unsatisfying "here, you can take some of these as feats" just strikes me as ... I'm not sure. Unsavory, unfun, and irritating, because I was trying to do it without a loss of feats, 'cause feats are feats and're fun, and if I'm trying to make it a class, it doesn't make sense to me for class features to come via feats except as supplementary feats. :/ In short, the answer to your question about how well it works in a game that includes all material is that we don't know for sure, but it will probably be overpowered. How overpowered we can't exactly say, but given that it's a melee focus class anyway, probably not game-breakingly so. Give it a shot, because I'm sure there are people interested in how well it works. :) Thank you. You know, I did just re-read the whole thread, and that's the first real post that's sat down an answered the question directly of what your opinion of the class is - in both senses, 'as a class' and 'in terms of power'. I was hoping to ask, then, what could be changed to change it's power, tiering, etc... But it seems like the only answer to that will still be "make the soulknife class features feats that the PsyWar can take". Blah.
Scion of Coldshard 02-15-08, 07:54 PM	So, what was wrong with my post then? I started off with a point about my own version of balanced, mentioned feat choices as an option to simulate the conversion, and then suggested a way to push the two together in a potentially balanced way. Hmm.. that seems to fit pretty much all of your criteria, so I am confused.
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 08:10 PM	You know, nothing... It's a good post, actually. Thank you. I think I mostly missed it, or something. :/ I'm sorry. I was grumpy, and while it's reasons it's no excuse. I apologize for my behavior.
TheKeyofE 02-15-08, 09:02 PM	So basically, you're just gestalting Soulknife and Psywar, but not calling it a gestalt. "That which we call a rose, by any other name..." Balance wise, that seems fine to me. When I speak of balance I usually reference the various "Rate the classes" threads (I think this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14758242&postcount=135) is the current one). The Psywar got a 6 there. Adding all the Soulknife's stuff to it without taking anything away would raise it to maybe 7.5 or 8, I think. That puts it higher than other melee classes but still lower than full casters. Play wise, I think it would be a lot of fun to play.
StruckingFuggle 02-15-08, 09:24 PM	So basically, you're just gestalting Soulknife and Psywar, but not calling it a gestalt. "That which we call a rose, by any other name..." That was my basic original intent, yes. (The utter pedant in me must mutter that "it's not quite that by another name (or non-use of a name), because it's meant to be a single class, fit for either a single-class game or one side of a gestalt progression", but ... yes. :) ) Balance wise, that seems fine to me. When I speak of balance I usually reference the various "Rate the classes" threads (I think this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14758242&postcount=135) is the current one). The Psywar got a 6 there. Adding all the Soulknife's stuff to it without taking anything away would raise it to maybe 7.5 or 8, I think. That puts it higher than other melee classes but still lower than full casters. That, sir, is an outstanding way to put it. I'm going to have to remember that when I'm talking about balance in the future. And thanks for your input. Play wise, I think it would be a lot of fun to play. Me, too. :)
Scion of Coldshard 02-15-08, 10:16 PM	No worries ;) I'm certainly not going to take offense. So what are you thinking about for a writeup at the moment? While it is true the soulknife is quite a bit underpowered the same cannot really be said for the psychic warrior. Adding too much to it can easily go too far. If you would like a few other ideas.. Warrior of Mental Steel (or Mentat): HD: d6 BAB: Medium Saves: F: P, R: P, W: P Skill points: 4 (good selection, I would just say 'all' to make it easy on myself personally but not everyone would go for that) Weapon/Armor prof: Simple and Martial weapons, whip, light and medium armor, all shields (except tower shields) Level 1: Wild Talent bonus feat. Pinnacle of the Mind (Ex): Gain a bonus to all saves equal to your wisdom bonus. Action without Thought/Thought without Action (Su): When you become psionically focused choose to be Acting or Thinking. If you are acting you get an insight bonus to your BAB of 1 +1/5 class levels, an equal amount of temp hp at the beginning of your turn each round, an equal bonus to all physical skill checks, and you also suffer this amount as a penalty to all mental skill checks. If you are Thinking you gain a bonus of 1 +1/5 class levels to all of your mental skill checks, gain that number as DR/- that stacks with all other DR, and you also suffer this amount as a penalty to damage rolls and physical skill checks. You may expend your focus as a free action during your turn to double these bonuses and penalties until the start of your next turn but during this time you may not regain your focus. Blade of Thought (Su): Your mind is honed to razor sharpness and you may create a physical representation of your mental might to harry your foes and possibly even impress the ladies. When you are not psionically focused you may, as a move action that does not provoke aoos, you may form the Blade of Thought into the form of any weapon with which you have proficiency, but you may adjust its appearance as you see fit so long as it still appears to serve the same function in some way. You gain an insight bonus to your attack rolls with this weapon equal to your charisma bonus. You gain an insight bonus to your damage rolls with this weapon equal to your intelligence bonus. When you let go of the weapon it disappears after the attack, or immediately if it was not used to attack. Once each day you may spend pp to improve the weapon. When you are spending these points you select abilities for the weapon and they stay for 24 hours. If you change the weapon to another base type that cannot use a given enhancement that ability is suppressed while the weapon is in that form. You may spend up to 1+1/2 your class level in pp (round down). One point may be used to give the weapon a special material type limited by level (silver and cold iron lvl 1, adamantine lvl 12). You may also get a normal enhancement or enhancement abilities with each +1 taking a point (maximum + for any of them is 1/4 levels rounding down, so at level 16 you could spend 9 pp making your weapon a +4 adamantine flaming speed if you would like). You may also use one of these points to give your weapon both the Throwing and Returning properties at once or, once you are of sufficient level, you may spend 3 points to give it these properties except that the throwing range is tripled and the weapon returns quickly enough to use it for iterative attacks. Any spell cast on the weapon is removed if the weapon is reformed. Manifest as a Psychic Warrior of your class level -2. Bonus psionic feat every 3rd level, Bonus Fighter feat every 5th level. Hmm.. Overall that might actually be more or less balanced ;) But then I also like crazy things.. HD: d4 BAB: Poor Saves: F: P, R: P, W: G Skills: 8 (I would again say all because I am a bit lazy at times, but should all not be appropriate then a very good selection here) Weapon/Armor Prof: None Level 1 Raiment of the Mind: This ability is gained at level 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 20 Each time you gain this ability you select either Armor, Weapon, Shield, Ring, Helm, Goggles, or Boots. These each take up the slot of their name and have the following abilities - Armor - Your mind is your fortress of safety beyond all reproach. While you are psionically focused an etheral suit of armor wraps around your body. Its general features are up to you but it cannot give off light brighter than a torch nor will it grant any bonuses to any skill checks and it must appear to cover what is protected and not cover what is not. This armor gives you an armor bonus (force) equal to your intelligence modifier, has a max dex bonus equal to your charisma modifier, and grants DR/- and ER (all) equal to half of your wisdom bonus. This armor has neither weight nor arcane spell failure. Weapon - While psionically focused you gain the ability to call a weapon from your mind to your hand. Treat your class level as equivalent to levels in soulknife with respect to enhancement bonus and enhancements. You may create this weapon as a free action with a DC 20 concentration check or as a move action with a DC 10 concentration check (neither provokes aoos). Shield - While psionically focused you may form a perfectly reflective shield of force to your hand. It acts as a normal heavy shield except that if it is dropped it immediately disappears. The shield confers a +2 shield bonus (force) to AC with a +1 enhancement every 4 class levels, it has no weight, no max dex bonus, no acp, and no arcane spell failure. In addition, any creature with a gaze attack is subject to its own gaze when reflected in this shield and any creature that does elemental damage to you while within 30' of you takes half of the damage you would have taken (you take the other half). Ring - While psionically focused a stray bit of thought circles around the fingers of one hand continuously. While it may be distracting to others you find that the shifting movements help to clarify and strengthen your thoughts. You gain a bonus to AC as a deflection bonus, a resistance bonus to saving throws, and a competence bonus to skill checks equal to 1 + 1/5 your class levels (round down). Helm - While psionically focused your mental prowess forms itself physically into a crown of mental might. You may choose the general features of the crown but it must cover your head and not extend further than 1' from your body. When you form the crown you may choose to gain the wisdom of the ages, at the cost of your physical body; if you do so treat your age category as being advanced by 1 for age penalties and bonuses (one step beyond venerable is ancient at -4 to all physical stats and +1 to each mental). While artificially aged in this way each round you may manifest one power and have part of its augmentation paid for free, this amount of free augmentation is equal to your age category step (middle 1, old 2, venerable 3, ancient 4) and is still subject to normal pp spending (ie count limit before reduction). Goggles - While psionically focused your eyes are covered in a thin sheen of ectoplasm of whatever color you like, shifting as you desire. Your gaze does not suffer distractions lightly while so protected. You gain a +4 +1/3 levels bonus to spot checks, search checks, and saves against sight based effects. Also, against any illusionary effects you make a special spot check vs 15 + the caster level of the effect (or 25 if no caster level) to realize it is an illusion and be able to see through it as though it was a thin fog. Boots - While psionically focused your feet seem to disappear and are replaced with a set of feet from another creature of your choice within 1 size category of yourself. You gain a +10' bonus to your land speed, a +5 bonus to all movement related skill and ability checks, and a +4 bonus to resist being tripped, bullrushed, overran, or grappled. Manifest as a Divine Mind of your class level +2. Gain a mantle at levels 2, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Raiment Fervor: Having combinations of the above abilities can grant extra abilities while you are psionically focused: Armor + Weapon + Shield = Mental Warrior (Gain Dodge and Endurance as bonus feats, if you already have either double their bonus of whichever you had already instead; Gain Toughness as a bonus feat; Gain Improved Shield Bash as a bonus feat, if you already have it then treat your shield as 2 size categories larger for damage and you may hide behind it as if it were a tower shield) Helm + Goggles + Ring = Hardened Mind (Gain the Mettle ability; Gain Iron Will as a bonus feat, if you already had it gain Overchannel instead, if you already have that then gain Body Fuel, if you already have that then you may make yourself an extra age category older with the Helm without taking the physical penalties of the extra step) Boots + Helm + Armor = Body Fortress (Gain 1 +1/4 levels temp hp each round; Gain the Evasion ability, Improved Evasion if you already have Evasion, or +4 insight bonus to dexterity if you already have both; Gain SR of 5 + class level or improve existing SR by 5 if that would be higher; Your touch AC and flat-footed AC are the same as your full AC bonus) yey fun! I could go on forever.. but I'll stop for now..lol
kelvinaw273 02-16-08, 10:29 AM	Just wondering. I've picked up that the PsyWar is fairly benign, neither overly powerful nor overly weak, and that the Soulknife is considered to be pretty darn weak. So the idea hit me to take the two classes and smash them together into a single class, taking the abilities of both. Maybe monkey with some of the basic hd, skill, saves stuff, but basically a 3/4 bab warrior with all the soulknife and psywar class skills. Would it be good, or "holy crap, too powerful!"? Well you have to balance it somehow, but that's not impossible. I would lose all the Psy War's bonus feats for the Mind Blade with psychic strike progression. I'd lose the Mind Blade Enhancements, the PsyWar can substitute their powers for that. Lose the heavy armour and martial weapon proficiencies as well. How does that sound?
StruckingFuggle 02-22-08, 11:17 PM	How about something like this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=995032)?