Psychic Chirurgery and Psychic Warriors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psychic Chirurgery and Psychic Warriors [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JoshuaZ
10-13-07, 06:38 PM A friend and I had a disagreement about Psychic Chirurgery. Can Psychic Chirurgery be used to give a Psychic Warrior powers beyond 6th level?

Psychic Chirurgey says:
" You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list." The psychic warrior description says "To learn or manifest a power, a psychic warrior must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the power’s level." So the argument goes that even though powers known only goes up to 6th level, a Psychic Warrior with high enough wisdom score would still be able to manifest higher level powers and thus could gain them using Psychic Chirurgery. Is this legal?
JulesCARV
10-13-07, 06:44 PM The only way I see a psychic warrior being able to manifest level 7 or higher powers is through some form of circular logic, along the lines of, "a psychic warrior ordinarily can only manifest level 6 or lower powers, but with psychic chirurgery, he could learn higher level ones. Therefore, a psychic warrior can manifest any power, so long as the manifester level at more than twice the power's level. Therefore psychic chirurgery can legally implant level 7+ powers into a psychic warrior's mind." That's nonsense.
JoshuaZ
10-13-07, 06:56 PM The only way I see a psychic warrior being able to manifest level 7 or higher powers is through some form of circular logic, along the lines of, "a psychic warrior ordinarily can only manifest level 6 or lower powers, but with psychic chirurgery, he could learn higher level ones. Therefore, a psychic warrior can manifest any power, so long as the manifester level at more than twice the power's level. Therefore psychic chirurgery can legally implant level 7+ powers into a psychic warrior's mind." That's nonsense.

That's what I initially thought but I'm not so sure now. Chirurgery says "power of any level that she can manifest" and the only restriction on manifesting for the psychic warrior is that 10+ wis modifier >= power level. The restriction of power level known to 6th level is for "powers known" which Chirurgery explicitly doesn't count towards.
JulesCARV
10-13-07, 07:09 PM The psychic warrior may not be restricted from manifesting level 7+ powers, but that doesn't mean that she can manifest level 7+ powers. Just as no psychic warrior is restricted from manifesting claws of the beast, but that doesn't mean that all psychic warriors can manifest claws of the beast.

If you claim that you can manifest powers of level 7, you'd better be prepared to show me which level 7 power you can manifest. What is it? Decerebrate? Energy conversion? Psionic Moment of Prescience? Ultrablast?

If you can't name any level 7 or higher powers you can manifest, then it seems evident to me that you can't manifest powers of that level.
JoshuaZ
10-13-07, 07:19 PM Ok, thanks that clears it up. So in that case, it looks like if someone were able to manifest a power of say 5th level but hadn't taken any 5th level powers then Chirurgery couldn't give them a 5th level power?
vorpo
10-13-07, 07:30 PM A 7th lvl power isn't something the psychic warrior "can" manifest. Therefore, Jules was correct.

Ok, thanks that clears it up. So in that case, it looks like if someone were able to manifest a power of say 5th level but hadn't taken any 5th level powers then Chirurgery couldn't give them a 5th level power?

You are correct. A 16th lvl psychic warrior can know UP to 6th level powers but may not have chosen one. With chirugery, he can be bestowed the knowledge of a 6th lvl power.
JoshuaZ
10-13-07, 07:39 PM A 7th lvl power isn't something the psychic warrior "can" manifest. Therefore, Jules was correct.

You are correct. A 16th lvl psychic warrior can know UP to 6th level powers but may not have chosen one. With chirugery, he can be bestowed the knowledge of a 6th lvl power.

Er, that wasn't what I said. I would think that with Chirurgery he can't then get a 6th level power because he is unable to manifest a 6th level power. He would need to have chosen at least one to then use chirurgery. If not, what am I missing?
Jaid
10-13-07, 09:11 PM step 1) follow this link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm)

step 2) examine the chart found there..

step 3) observe the last column of the chart, entitled "Maximum Power Level Known".

step 4) observe that the value in said last column never exceeds 6th.

step 5) realise that the psychic warrior actually *is* explicitly limited with respect to what level of power can be learned.

step 6) apply that general ruling to the specific scenario of psychic chirurgery, which says "You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list."

step 7) realise that it has nothing to do with manifester level, attributes, or what level of power the individual in question *does* know, but rather what level of power the individual in question *could* know. whether or not a level 15 psion knows a level 8 power or not is irrelevant; the simple fact is that they *can* know one, and that they *can* manifest them, as noted on the handy chart for psion level progression.

(short version: look at the maximum power level the character is allowed to know, found in their class level progression table).
vorpo
10-14-07, 11:17 AM Er, that wasn't what I said. I would think that with Chirurgery he can't then get a 6th level power because he is unable to manifest a 6th level power. He would need to have chosen at least one to then use chirurgery. If not, what am I missing?

Simply because the class table allows him 6th level power at lvl 16. He doesn't know any 6th level power doesn't mean he can't.

This is sort of like the bard's 1st lvl spell at lvl 2: 0. Can he cast 1st level spells? Yes. Does he know any 1st level spells? Only if he gets bonus from high ability, so, maybe or maybe not.
JoshuaZ
10-14-07, 04:51 PM Simply because the class table allows him 6th level power at lvl 16. He doesn't know any 6th level power doesn't mean he can't.

This is sort of like the bard's 1st lvl spell at lvl 2: 0. Can he cast 1st level spells? Yes. Does he know any 1st level spells? Only if he gets bonus from high ability, so, maybe or maybe not.

Ok, thanks. That clarifies things well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoshuaZ 10-13-07, 06:38 PM	A friend and I had a disagreement about Psychic Chirurgery. Can Psychic Chirurgery be used to give a Psychic Warrior powers beyond 6th level? Psychic Chirurgey says: " You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list." The psychic warrior description says "To learn or manifest a power, a psychic warrior must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the power’s level." So the argument goes that even though powers known only goes up to 6th level, a Psychic Warrior with high enough wisdom score would still be able to manifest higher level powers and thus could gain them using Psychic Chirurgery. Is this legal?
JulesCARV 10-13-07, 06:44 PM	The only way I see a psychic warrior being able to manifest level 7 or higher powers is through some form of circular logic, along the lines of, "a psychic warrior ordinarily can only manifest level 6 or lower powers, but with psychic chirurgery, he could learn higher level ones. Therefore, a psychic warrior can manifest any power, so long as the manifester level at more than twice the power's level. Therefore psychic chirurgery can legally implant level 7+ powers into a psychic warrior's mind." That's nonsense.
JoshuaZ 10-13-07, 06:56 PM	The only way I see a psychic warrior being able to manifest level 7 or higher powers is through some form of circular logic, along the lines of, "a psychic warrior ordinarily can only manifest level 6 or lower powers, but with psychic chirurgery, he could learn higher level ones. Therefore, a psychic warrior can manifest any power, so long as the manifester level at more than twice the power's level. Therefore psychic chirurgery can legally implant level 7+ powers into a psychic warrior's mind." That's nonsense. That's what I initially thought but I'm not so sure now. Chirurgery says "power of any level that she can manifest" and the only restriction on manifesting for the psychic warrior is that 10+ wis modifier >= power level. The restriction of power level known to 6th level is for "powers known" which Chirurgery explicitly doesn't count towards.
JulesCARV 10-13-07, 07:09 PM	The psychic warrior may not be restricted from manifesting level 7+ powers, but that doesn't mean that she can manifest level 7+ powers. Just as no psychic warrior is restricted from manifesting claws of the beast, but that doesn't mean that all psychic warriors can manifest claws of the beast. If you claim that you can manifest powers of level 7, you'd better be prepared to show me which level 7 power you can manifest. What is it? Decerebrate? Energy conversion? Psionic Moment of Prescience? Ultrablast? If you can't name any level 7 or higher powers you can manifest, then it seems evident to me that you can't manifest powers of that level.
JoshuaZ 10-13-07, 07:19 PM	Ok, thanks that clears it up. So in that case, it looks like if someone were able to manifest a power of say 5th level but hadn't taken any 5th level powers then Chirurgery couldn't give them a 5th level power?
vorpo 10-13-07, 07:30 PM	A 7th lvl power isn't something the psychic warrior "can" manifest. Therefore, Jules was correct. Ok, thanks that clears it up. So in that case, it looks like if someone were able to manifest a power of say 5th level but hadn't taken any 5th level powers then Chirurgery couldn't give them a 5th level power? You are correct. A 16th lvl psychic warrior can know UP to 6th level powers but may not have chosen one. With chirugery, he can be bestowed the knowledge of a 6th lvl power.
JoshuaZ 10-13-07, 07:39 PM	A 7th lvl power isn't something the psychic warrior "can" manifest. Therefore, Jules was correct. You are correct. A 16th lvl psychic warrior can know UP to 6th level powers but may not have chosen one. With chirugery, he can be bestowed the knowledge of a 6th lvl power. Er, that wasn't what I said. I would think that with Chirurgery he can't then get a 6th level power because he is unable to manifest a 6th level power. He would need to have chosen at least one to then use chirurgery. If not, what am I missing?
Jaid 10-13-07, 09:11 PM	step 1) follow this link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) step 2) examine the chart found there.. step 3) observe the last column of the chart, entitled "Maximum Power Level Known". step 4) observe that the value in said last column never exceeds 6th. step 5) realise that the psychic warrior actually is explicitly limited with respect to what level of power can be learned. step 6) apply that general ruling to the specific scenario of psychic chirurgery, which says "You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list." step 7) realise that it has nothing to do with manifester level, attributes, or what level of power the individual in question does know, but rather what level of power the individual in question could know. whether or not a level 15 psion knows a level 8 power or not is irrelevant; the simple fact is that they can know one, and that they can manifest them, as noted on the handy chart for psion level progression. (short version: look at the maximum power level the character is allowed to know, found in their class level progression table).
vorpo 10-14-07, 11:17 AM	Er, that wasn't what I said. I would think that with Chirurgery he can't then get a 6th level power because he is unable to manifest a 6th level power. He would need to have chosen at least one to then use chirurgery. If not, what am I missing? Simply because the class table allows him 6th level power at lvl 16. He doesn't know any 6th level power doesn't mean he can't. This is sort of like the bard's 1st lvl spell at lvl 2: 0. Can he cast 1st level spells? Yes. Does he know any 1st level spells? Only if he gets bonus from high ability, so, maybe or maybe not.
JoshuaZ 10-14-07, 04:51 PM	Simply because the class table allows him 6th level power at lvl 16. He doesn't know any 6th level power doesn't mean he can't. This is sort of like the bard's 1st lvl spell at lvl 2: 0. Can he cast 1st level spells? Yes. Does he know any 1st level spells? Only if he gets bonus from high ability, so, maybe or maybe not. Ok, thanks. That clarifies things well.